I am sorry that you cannot see reality. The evidence of the poor outcomes of so many fatherless children is everywhere

So here is a question for you...."Do you just need to put down other people by attempting to degrade them for their life choices (what I call the holier than thou card) or are you actually interested in finding solutions for as you claim it to be ... this epidemic?"

The solution is to STOP HAVING CHILDREN OUT OF WEDLOCK.

There is no question that a married man is obligated to care for his wife and children, whether they remain an intact family or not.

I am not denying that children are usually served well if their two loving effective parents are married and raising them as a family unit,

but in the absence of that (which more and more seems to be the norm) perhaps if more parents took responsibility for their actions and focused on the needs of the child they created, they would not be so fvcked up, no?

Your solution basically means that all those children of single parent homes today are S.O.L.....I personally try to find solutions to fix the entire problem and not focus on only one part of the problem, but that is just me....

Like what? Men are already legally obligated to pay for illegitimate children, so what is the problem? No, my "solution" has to do with children who do not even exist yet. As for the children who are already here, what is the problem? Men are currently legally obligated to support them, so I don't see the problem.

Marriage is today, the same as it was 50 yrs ago and there is nothing wrong with the institution.
It's the people who enter into it, mostly because unable to understand its meaning and/or for the wrong reasons, the ones that make it look like as obsolete.
Beside the change in legislations which turned the divorce, in an industry.

Futureshock,

Where you and I differ in ideology is that I believe a child should have both parents loving them, committed to being a part of their lives, regardless of whether or not Mom and Dad are married and whether or not anyone pays support for the child. Children don't care about money....ADULTS DO! Children want to feel loved. Nowhere do I state that money is all that matters like you do.

Most single parents I know who are receiving child support where the paying parent is not actively involved would gladly give up every dime if that parent would only be more involved. Why can't you even begin to understand THAT concept?

It seems to be based on everything I have read in your many posts on the subject, you truly think money solves everything.....it doesn't. You don't see the problem and you never will, you see but a tip of the iceberg and draw parallels and feel you have adequately defined the problem.

Problem Resolution 101

before you can find a solution, you must clearly define the problem to be addressed

You have yet to do that......the holes I can drive the mac truck through actually keep expanding......

Since you are asserting this, why don't you tell me what the problem is that I see and why there are holes in it? I think I have more than once clearly defined the problem AND the solution,

Futureshock, from what I've read in most of the posts you make, the underlying theme is....

a) Children should not be raised in poverty. If you are poor, you should not procreate because you cannot provide for them. Ethically I agree with you, however, what is ethically correct and what can actually be implemented in the real world are two different things. What is the magic income target one should obtain before considering having a child? Since you are unlikely to ever stop poor people from having children, then the solution lies logically in removing poverty from the equation.

Do you even know why people born in poverty tend to die in poverty or in jail? A four letter word ..... HOPE. If they don't believe they can escape it, they won't. So how do you get people to believe in their abilities, in themselves? For starters, you can ensure the education system in the inner cities of the US is as good if not better than in the more affluent neighbourhoods for a generation to break the cycle. Make before and after school help programs a part of the package. Try to end the negative stereotyping that is so damaging to the collective esteem of the target group being stereotyped. If the parents can't do it (instill hope), then let the educators do it....they spend more time with the children than parents do when you think about it and can have a powerful impact on young minds. Teachers can be (when they are respected) extremely dedicated to enriching the lives of their students. Let society send a different message than the one we have been sending which is essentially, if you are poor, you are worthless and we don't expect much from you except that you will try to take from the rest of us (through welfare or crime).

b) Emotional neglect of one parent - you haven't felt that was even necessary since you have almost always ignored that part of what I write, but I do feel you might be having an aha moment so I will give you the benefit here.

the Equally worse for the children living in poverty are the children who have little or no relationship with one of their biological parents. You have stated that as long as they are getting financial support, there is no problem. You couldn't be further from the truth for a great number of these children.

In your personal situation, not having a relationship with your biological mother past the age of 9 might have been the better alternative in terms of how you turned out but you had mitigating factors (a step mom) and having a relationship with your Mom might have hurt you more than helped you. There are alot of reasons why one is not involved, but I will deal with the ones that I am most familiar with as a student of humanity who observes alot, reads alot and watches as many documentaries on the subject as I can (given that I have one son who really doesn't have a relationship with his father)

Some women (alot if you consider these boards representative of the population) feel that the child they conceive and bear is theirs alone. Dad is not thought of as an equal parent by the mother, with as much to offer their child as Mom. We need to change that perception because while men and women MAY provide "different" things to their children, the children need all of what they can provide them collectively. The question to the men then becomes why did you walk away?

Many will probably say they felt the Mom could do it alone which can be taken two ways, both of which actually hurt men. In one way, the message they receive from Mom is I can do it, I don't need you. Anyone, male or female that received that message would be hurt by it because we all need to feel that we have something of value to offer, don't we? In another way, if the man was raised by a single Mom who had a tendency to take negatively about men (ie their fathers), they don't believe they have anything to contribute. I've personally heard these complaints a lot...don't you think it is time we listened to what they are saying and did something about that?

c) Men should have a say is your other argument - well that won't be changing anytime soon after conception so it is really a mute point. But after reading (b), can't you see that part of the solution is giving men time to adjust to impending parenthood, by encouraging/supporting them (not criticizing) them and recognizing their inherent right to be as influential as the Mother (easy access for bonding)? We women do expect on some level for men to be stronger, more able to manage things at times, but we are so quick not to realize that sometimes men feel just as freaked out as we do and need time to process/adjust/accept things and they need words of encouragement as much as we do and don't need criticism any more than we do. I really feel that more men would not freak out upon finding out they were going to be a father, if men weren't made to feel like "walking wallets" but respected as fathers. Do you really not think it is possible that their attitudes might change?

Of course, there will always be exceptions but wouldn't it be better when a pregnancy happens to have men in love and involved with their children even if they are not in love or involved with the mother?

I'm not saying I have the problem clearly defined or solved, no one person really could but I tend to be more of a problem solver than a whiner in life and on these discussion boards. If I see a problem I try to solve it. When someone claims to know everything about everything and have the problem solved all by themselves, yeah, it is really easy to drive a mac truck through their arguments......no one person on this planet is that smart to have covered all the bases or even many of the largest bases and found a viable simple solution.

We cannot control human behaviour .... but we can change human behaviour by listening to BOTH sides of an argument and then seeking the solution. Telling someone to stop it rarely works.....the solution is far more complex than that because most problems in society are complex.

Girls who grow up without a father have a very high chance of promiscuity.

I had both my biological parents and still would be able to be thought of as "promiscuous"