| Circumcision...To cut or not to cut?
Posted: 1/2/2007 12:51:40 AM | My boys are not cut. When I was pg with my first I thought I would get him circ'd but then he was born premature and so tiny, I coulnd't imagine causing him anymore pain. He did have problems with infections for a while due to a misalignment of openings, but still is intact and has been infection free for 5 years. I just worked closely with his ped and an urinologist to make sure he didn't keep getting them. When my youngest was born you'd think I'd have had it done due to the infections my oldest had. I did speak with others who had it done. The majority I spoke to had horror stories, of botched circ's etc. So I left the youngest intact too.
Circumsion always has such a heated debate attached to it, like breastfeeding vs bottle, working vs stay-at-home parent or whether or not to homeschool. I don't think there will ever be a time that everyone agrees with one side, it is just one of those topics that gets everyone riled up. | |
|
| Circumcision...To cut or not to cut?
Posted: 1/2/2007 1:13:16 AM | I have two little ones that are both cut and neither one cried and they were done in the doctors office when they were less than a week. I know I got into a debate about this with my sister in law....she chose not to because of the pain to my nephew...yet when she had my niece she went and got her earlobes pierced...which caused alot of crying...
personal choice | |
|
| Circumcision...To cut or not to cut?
Posted: 1/2/2007 8:32:40 AM |
How is it that virtually every male that has weighed in on this is pro, yet we women seem to feel that we know better? I'm literally just picking men that I know and asking them...they are all PRO circumcision.
I've heard DOCTORS say that the cleanliness issue is not a myth. Some disagree. Personally, I don't think anyone knows, but I chose to err on the safe side.
We have been raised in a culture in which circing baby boys is the norm. All people, including the men and medical community mentioned above are part of that culture.
The *truth* is that circ is one of the areas (very much like breastfeeding) that medical information was formed around the practice of circ'ing boys and not from the medical reality. It's not actual medical knowlege, but misinformation.
Men in our culture can be expected to be pro-circ because we've been raised in a culture in which it was expected and in which loads of medical BS was offered over the years.
Another important note is that in cultures were routine infant circ is not done, you do not see older children and adults undergoing a circ as remedy for infection and other issues. Circ as a solution is simply not done. That's because *here* it's assumed a lack of circ is the cause. In non routine circ cultures, it's not considered an issue. They treat the rare infection of an intact penis, leaving the foreskin intact as it's medically assumed as necessary as a nose or ear.
In all the debates and discussions I've read on this topic, I have not once read a reason to circ a baby that is not based on flawed, inaccurate and wrong medical information. | |
|
| Circumcision...To cut or not to cut?
Posted: 1/2/2007 10:19:23 AM |
This got my curiosity up so I Googled and went to the circlist site already referenced in this thread. Excellent info there. They mention the reality that historically desert climates made it particularly valuable to be free of foreskin. Imagine sand getting where you don't want it to be and no water available for washing it out! Ouch! Considering that the current controversial war is raging in a sandy area and that that very likely will continue to be a world hot-spot... Poor soldiers who are uncircumsized... I'd be curious to hear what Vietnam vets have to report about their experiences in that notoriously hot and humid climate, optimal for fungal growth. I remember one of the movies, Platoon or Full Metal Jacket or another, where the guys referred to one of their number as "Cheese D*ck". Sounds appealing, doesn't it?!
Well I served in various Jungles and Deserts, including Iraq. Used to spend 3 - 4 months of the year desert or Jungle training. I am still a regular visitor to Afghanistan/Iraq/Africa and despite being uncut have never picked up any infection, nor suffered the sores that I have seen my men that are cut endure after long yomps through Jungle and Desert. In fact I would say that on balance the uncut guys got less problems with their bits than the cut guys, there are of course various nasties that like bodily orifices to swim up, crawl up etc, this is less easy when uncut.
So I am afraid I really do feel that is not an argument for genital mutilation. Just think that many Arab and African cultures do female circumcision for reasons of cleanliness, aesthetics and ensuring virginity at marriage, maybe that should be adopted as a "normal" practice in the US | |
|
| Circumcision...To cut or not to cut?
Posted: 1/2/2007 10:34:20 AM | Midly we agree on something YIPEEEEEE.
It is an American thing this may be a good counter argument to the slashers
Protection: Just as the eyelids protect the eyes, the foreskin protects the glans and keeps its surface soft, moist, and sensitive. It also maintains optimal warmth, pH balance, and cleanliness. The glans itself contains no sebaceous glands-glands that produce the sebum, or oil, that moisturizes our skin.11 The foreskin produces the sebum that maintains proper health of the surface of the glans.
Immunological Defense: The mucous membranes that line all body orifices are the body's first line of immunological defense. Glands in the foreskin produce antibacterial and antiviral proteins such as lysozyme.12 Lysozyme is also found in tears and mother's milk. Specialized epithelial Langerhans cells, an immune system component, abound in the foreskin's outer surface.13 Plasma cells in the foreskin's mucosal lining secrete immunoglobulins, antibodies that defend against infection.14
Erogenous Sensitivity: The foreskin is as sensitive as the fingertips or the lips of the mouth. It contains a richer variety and greater concentration of specialized nerve receptors than any other part of the penis.15 These specialized nerve endings can discern motion, subtle changes in temperature, and fine gradations of texture.16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23
Coverage During Erection: As it becomes erect, the penile shaft becomes thicker and longer. The double-layered foreskin provides the skin necessary to accommodate the expanded organ and to allow the penile skin to glide freely, smoothly, and pleasurably over the shaft and glans.
Self-Stimulating Sexual Functions: The foreskin's double-layered sheath enables the penile shaft skin to glide back and forth over the penile shaft. The foreskin can normally be slipped all the way, or almost all the way, back to the base of the penis, and also slipped forward beyond the glans. This wide range of motion is the mechanism by which the penis and the orgasmic triggers in the foreskin, frenulum, and glans are stimulated.
Sexual Functions in Intercourse: One of the foreskin's functions is to facilitate smooth, gentle movement between the mucosal surfaces of the two partners during intercourse. The foreskin enables the penis to slip in and out of the vagina nonabrasively inside its own slick sheath of self-lubricating, movable skin. The female is thus stimulated by moving pressure rather than by friction only, as when the male's foreskin is missing.
The foreskin fosters intimacy between the two partners by enveloping the glans and maintaining it as an internal organ. The sexual experience is enhanced when the foreskin slips back to allow the male's internal organ, the glans, to meet the female's internal organ, the cervix-a moment of supreme intimacy and beauty. | |
|
| |
| Circumcision...To cut or not to cut?
Posted: 1/2/2007 11:46:19 AM | when my son was born i had every intention of having him cut....then one of my friends at the time was a urologist and gave me the pros and cons....so i opted not to as it seemed that the most common reaosn parents get this doen is b/c "daddy is circumsized"...or "he will look different than the other boys in the locker room".
fewer and fewer parents are opting for the procedure now...one word of caution is that i wish that i had it done b/c boys do get yeast infections under the foreskin....NO matter how careful you are in cleaning him...
best of luck in whatever the decision. | |
|
| Circumcision...To cut or not to cut?
Posted: 1/2/2007 12:30:20 PM | | Haven't read all the responses... we did think on it.... As Dad is... but in the end ... We were in Ontario and they wanted 500 to do it... not really worth it to me.... in the grand scheme of things one of those decisions I will deal with later on down the road.... plus I didn't want him to be one of those guys you see on TV lamenting that his mother had damaged him and he is to go through the painfull reattachment process... ick | |
|
| Circumcision...To cut or not to cut?
Posted: 1/2/2007 1:17:21 PM |
fewer and fewer parents are opting for the procedure now...one word of caution is that i wish that i had it done b/c boys do get yeast infections under the foreskin....NO matter how careful you are in cleaning him...
Recurring yeast infections are usually caused by forcibly retracting the foreskin, exposing the glans to yeast and yeast growth. It is not supposed to be done. | |
|
| Circumcision...To cut or not to cut?
Posted: 1/3/2007 9:41:24 AM | From BBC news (one of many articles when googled - research circumcision HIV transmission):
--------------------------------------
Last Updated: Wednesday, 13 December 2006, 17:38 GMT
Male circumcision 'cuts' HIV risk
Foreskin cells are thought to be more vulnerable to HIV infection
Circumcision can cut the rate of HIV infection in heterosexual men by 50%, results from two African trials show.
The findings are so striking, the US National Institutes of Health decided it would be unethical to continue and stopped the trials early.
It supports a previous South African study which reported similar results.
Experts said it was a significant breakthrough but could not replace standard methods of preventing infection such as condoms.
These findings are of great interest to public health policy makers who are developing and implementing comprehensive HIV prevention programmes
Dr Elias Zerhouni
US National Institutes of Health
The two trials of around 8,000 men took place in Uganda and Kenya were due to finish in July and September 2007 respectively.
But after an interim review of the data by the NIH Data and Safety Monitoring Board, it was decided to halt the trials as it was unethical not to offer circumcision in the men who were acting as controls.
Bleeding less likely
The trial in Kenya found a 53% reduction in new HIV infections in heterosexual men who were circumcised while the Ugandan study reported a drop of 48%.
Men must not consider themselves protected
Dr Kevin De****br>World Health Organization
Results last year from a study in 3,280 heterosexual men in South Africa, which was also stopped early, showed a 60% drop in the incidence of new infections in men who had been circumcised.
There are several reasons why circumcision may protect against HIV infection.
Specific cells in the foreskin may be potential targets for HIV infection and also the skin under the foreskin becomes less sensitive and is less likely to bleed reducing risk of infection following circumcision.
When Aids first began to emerge in Africa, researchers noted that men who were circumcised seemed to be less at risk of infection but it was unclear whether this was due to differences in sexual behaviour.
A modelling study done by international Aids experts earlier this year showed that male circumcision could avert about six million HIV infections and three million deaths in sub-Saharan Africa.
A further trial in Uganda to assess the risk of HIV transmission to female partners is due to report in 2008 but the effect among men who have sex with men has not yet been studied.
Implementation
Dr Kevin De**** director of the HIV/Aids department of the World Health Organization told the BBC the results were a "significant scientific advance" but were not a magic bullet and would never replace existing prevention strategies.
"We will have to convene a meeting which we hope will happen quite soon to review the data in more detail and have discussions about the implications.
"This is an intervention that must be embedded with all the other interventions and precautions we have. Men must not consider themselves protected. It's a very important intervention to add to our prevention armamentarium."
Dr De****said that countries in Africa who wanted to use this approach would still have to decide what age groups to target and there would have to be training and hygienic practices in place.
"This is about as good epidemiological data as we can request. There will be many other research questions about implementation but this is very persuasive."
NIH director Dr Elias Zerhouni said: "Male circumcision performed safely in a medical environment complements other HIV prevention strategies and could lessen the burden of HIV/Aids, especially in countries in sub-Saharan Africa where, according to the 2006 estimates from UNAids, 2.8 million new infections occurred in a single year."
Dr Jeckoniah Ndinya-Achola, co-principal investigator at the University of Nairobi, Kenya said: "The Ministry of Health of the Kenyan government is already holding discussions about how this can be made available. It will need a certain amount of improvement to existing facilities."
But Tom Elkins, Senior Policy Officer at the National AIDS Trust warned: "There is a real danger in sending out a message that circumcision can protect against HIV. This is not the case and could lead to an increase in unprotected sex.
"There is still a long way to go in providing comprehensive prevention programmes in many countries, and resources should go into normalising the use of condoms, which are the most effective method currently available for preventing HIV."
-----------
((Sorry, but when copying the ^^^ article it also grabbed captions to pictures which make the continuity a little weird when reading. - Martha))
--------------------------
One might also google - circumcision human papilloma virus cervical cancer, etc.
The foreskin fosters intimacy between the two partners by enveloping the glans and maintaining it as an internal organ. The sexual experience is enhanced when the foreskin slips back to allow the male's internal organ, the glans, to meet the female's internal organ, the cervix-a moment of supreme intimacy and beauty. This is beautifully, even erotically and poetically written. I don't think, however, a woman gets off on contact with her cervix... Guess that's another thread topic.
fewer and fewer parents are opting for the procedure now...one word of caution is that i wish that i had it done b/c boys do get yeast infections under the foreskin....NO matter how careful you are in cleaning him...
Recurring yeast infections are usually caused by forcibly retracting the foreskin, exposing the glans to yeast and yeast growth. It is not supposed to be done.
How does one know what's "supposed" to be done? Does a manual from The Creator exist? Do you have a copy that you could share with us? 
I'll STILL take my men circumcised, thank you very much!  | |
|
| Circumcision...To cut or not to cut?
Posted: 1/3/2007 9:56:25 AM |
I'll STILL take my men circumcised, thank you very much!
How can you base a relationship if the man is circumcised or not????
And oh yeah, here is another way to cut the risk of contracting HIV.......USE A CONDOM | |
|
| Circumcision...To cut or not to cut?
Posted: 1/3/2007 10:21:42 AM | HIV is but one example. Penile infection, cervical cancer and yeast are other things to consider. A condom? But how would the following occur?
The sexual experience is enhanced when the foreskin slips back to allow the male's internal organ, the glans, to meet the female's internal organ, the cervix-a moment of supreme intimacy and beauty.
As for how could I base a relationship on such criteria? Well, obviously that's not the only criteria, even for cold-blooded me!  I think we may largely be discussing societal norms here anyway. I'm advocating in favor of a society where circumcision is the norm. I also like chlorine and flouride in the drinking water as well as infant and childhood vaccinations. I definately thought episiotomy was a good idea to avoid ripping my body in childbirth, too. These are all "personal" decisions but with undeniable societal/political ramifications. I'm sorry that the Canadian healthcare system isn't covering circumcision and people are having to pay out-of-pocket for it to be done. Lobby for this, I say, just like many American health insurers didn't cover birth control pills in the past. They do now because laws say they MUST! Political, economic Bullsh*t!!!!! | |
|
| Circumcision...To cut or not to cut?
Posted: 1/3/2007 12:52:44 PM | | In regards to the hiv link, something to consider when looking at studies like this, is the geogrphy and other practices of the country. They are testing subjects in another country that has an epidemic of hiv, and there is no control of variables, as in who is having potected vs unprotected sex, who is using prostitutes, or is with a single person. There is far too many variables to conclude that the the foreskin alone controls the percentage of hiv infection. Show me a controlled study here in north america outlining this and I will take it under consideration. But simply throwing a poorly run study out as a reason to scare people into circing their boys is ridiculous. | |
|
| |
| Circumcision...To cut or not to cut?
Posted: 1/3/2007 3:04:09 PM |
There is far too many variables to conclude that the the foreskin alone controls the percentage of hiv infection. NOBODY concluded that the "foreskin alone" controls this. Don't know where you got that.
Show me a controlled study here in north america outlining this and I will take it under consideration. But simply throwing a poorly run study out as a reason to scare people into circing their boys is ridiculous. Why do you think these studies were "poorly run"? You might want to google for yourself. Reducing/eliminating HIV transmission is a global health priority. It makes sense to research the problem where the need/infection rate is greatest, wouldn't you agree?
I'm not trying to "scare" you or anybody else to do anything. I do think it's unfortunate that strong economic disincentive to circumcision exists in Canada. It really is a matter of choice, but for your healthcare system to refuse payment reduces Canadian ability to choose based on health considerations alone. | |
|
| Circumcision...To cut or not to cut?
Posted: 1/25/2007 9:57:58 PM | | i would like to share an experience, i'm a RN and when i was in nursig school, i had to do rotations in the room where they perform the circumcisions. this is a inhumane procedure. firstly, the newborns are literally tied by all four limbs onto a flat board, many doctors do not use any form of anesthesia, some docs give a sweet flavor to suck on to distract the babies, the clamp the penis with metal clamps so tight to cut off circulation, cut the penis and the schrilling screams that comes from the little precious innocent babies is nothing less than a scream from the very seed of their souls. they screech. it is like cutting your lips off from down below, some countries actually do this to women. extremely an unecessary procedure that is animalistic. | |
|
| Circumcision...To cut or not to cut?
Posted: 1/26/2007 12:09:36 AM | | Alot of people agree its a personal rights decision.....unfortunately he's not old enough to decide....maybe his constitutional rights dictate he be asked at the age of consent,until that point its nessesary medical procedures only. We all have the right to not have to undergo unnessesary medical procedures. | |
|
Tirkus
|
Joined: 10/19/2006
Msg: 243 | |
| Circumcision...To cut or not to cut?
Posted: 2/1/2007 10:22:51 PM |
Male circumcision 'cuts' HIV risk
Wow, I'm just going to get circed and go jump that aides infested crack whore I was avoiding!
What kind of arguement is that?
Imagine you spent 9 months in darkness. Then your brought into this new incredible world with exciting sounds, smiling faces, a rush of oders, a collage of astounding and magical colours. Just as you think is this heaven?
Some lug grabs you and cuts a third of your****off. Your first sensory experience is excrusiating unnecassary agony. | |
|
| Circumcision...To cut or not to cut?
Posted: 2/1/2007 11:14:49 PM | | My son is uncut. His father was cut... but we weren't together through most of the pregnancy or the birth so he had no right to decide. Plus I'm kind of modelling him after my father(since eventhough he's deceased he's still plays a big part in my life)... same name(my fathers first name and my sons middle name are the same)... same last name.... He is the last boy in our family line and when my sister has a child hers will have a different last name... so my little Aidan has the burden of carrying on the family name... all by himself. Anyways... I just didn't care wether he got cut or not, so I decided to keep him uncut. And my father was uncut too... that was part of the decision.... | |
|
babs3
|
Joined: 7/30/2006
Msg: 245 | |
| Circumcision...To cut or not to cut?
Posted: 2/2/2007 1:54:36 AM | | I have two boys. My oldest wasn't circumcised. There was alot of conterversay at that time around whether you should or shouldn't have the procedure done. The doctor I had advised against it because he was born with only half of a foreskin which didn't cover his whole penis. I wish I had had it done when he was small. He has had countless infections and blisters on his penis. At 13 he is going to have the foreskin removed, which I am sure will be very painful for him. When my second son was born, I didn't hesitate to have him done. | |
|
| Circumcision...To cut or not to cut?
Posted: 2/2/2007 6:35:53 AM | I work with seniors and at that point in life I think being circumcised is a little more important cause care is much easier!
My son'd dad was not.....but my son is! I believe in the long run it cuts out alot of problems and just looks nicer...lol
I had a boyfriend when I was 16 he was 17 and he had to get "cut" so to speak at the age cause he outgrew his own skin.....Talk about ouch! It would rip and trust me he remember's having it done then! | |
|
| Circumcision...To cut or not to cut?
Posted: 2/2/2007 7:05:16 AM | Very odd thing on this thread. 50/50 on the girls that think it should be done to not done as a matter of course
The guys 90/10 against doing it
Perhaps I should start a thread, guys what do we think about female circumcision, its better for us!
Or maybe the US can see that genital mutilation for convenience and against the wishes of the person receiving it is not really very 21st century | |
|
zxczxc
|
Joined: 12/6/2006
Msg: 248 | |
| Circumcision...To cut or not to cut?
Posted: 3/18/2007 12:25:13 AM | | Good point allcrakedup. Circ is all about conformity and feeling like one of the boys and nothing to do with true health benefits or risks. Get over it. Yeah a foreskin may not be as pretty as a nice round knob but remember the nice round knob is under the skin and waiting for the loving caress of a real woman. | |
|
| |
| Circumcision...To cut or not to cut?
Posted: 3/18/2007 7:13:38 AM | I can't even believe this thread is still going. Wow.
Martha Rose, you sound like the voice of reason here...personal choice based on what ALL of us parents feel is best for our child at the time. Its unbelievable to me that this can even be debated. I'm not raising anyone's children but my own and if when they get sick by WHATEVER means, I'll be the one taking care of them.
We all do what we feel is in the best interest of our children. NO one has the right to tell anyone otherwise or start throwing around words like "slasher" or "mutilation". I'm not going to jump in here and call anyone a FANATIC for implying that some of us parents don't love our children because we had them circumcized...or better yet, that those of us who didn't care about our children's pain OR do our own research in support of our decisions.
Its insane to me to debate an OPINION. No one is changing their minds and nobody is gonna run and get their kids cut because of this nor can they UNcut them. Parents should be in support of each other. Not ripping each other to shreds over such a personal decision. | |
|
Home
login 
