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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 10/15/2007 10:11:02 AM |
Maybe we have different definitions of an "elite" team. I never knew you could reach elite status in 5 games. I always thought it took a couple of seasons at least. Even if you only go by one season, the Wild still don't measure up yet. Now, if you want to state they have the POTENTIAL to become an elite team, that's a different story.
hockey is based in large part upon ur players buying into ur teams system. with any other coach behind the bench i dont even think the wild would be a playoff team. however, with lemaire this team has elite status. no its not just about this season, they were amazing last year when everyone was healthy. i guess u dont see them much huh? i have center ice and i can say that they are awesome. last night they were shorthanded 8 times including considerable 5 on 3 time. one time they were 2 men down for 1:14, another time they were down 2 men for 1:22. they have given up 4 goals in 5 games. i dont attribute that to a hot start either since last year this team won the william jenning trophy awarded to the teams goalies with the fewest goals scored against them. they have also been in the top 5 teams in the league in that category from 02-03 - present. gabby was on pace to hit 51 goals last season if he could have stayed healthy. the wild were 15-17-2 with him out of the line-up last year. which means with him in the line-up they were 33-9-6 or over a full season that would be 56-15-11, good for 123 points and the presidents trophy.
so during the season last year buffalo was not an elite team? cause before that, they had only had one good season under their belt. however last season they went on to win the presidents trophy.
how about anaheim? they were garbage until 02-03 they made the playoffs only because their division was the weakest in the nhl. in 03-04 they finished 12th in the west. in 05-06 they finished 6th in the west. then in 06-07 they finished 2nd in the west and won the cup. so ur saying last season the ducks were not considered an elite team in the league?
tampa bay had one good season before winning the cup in 03-04...
see what im getting at? ur argument is flawed on so many levels. ask any expert hockey analyst and id say he/she would agree that the wild are an elite team in the nhl. past seasons dont really mean that much. thats the difference between a dynasty and an elite team. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 10/15/2007 11:11:27 AM |
one time they were 2 men down for 1:14, another time they were down 2 men for 1:22
sorry, thats incorrect. im watching the replay on my DVR right now and realized i messed up. i was looking at the box score when i typed that and didnt realize the ducks penalty prior to that. the 1:14 one is correct, the 1:22 one is not. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 10/15/2007 11:28:21 AM | First of all, I wasn't aware I was presenting any kind of an argument whatsoever, just expressing an opinion.
Second, my argument is flawed simply because I haven't lowered my standards along with almost every other hockey "fan" under the age of 35? I think not.
And no, Anaheim is not an elite team IMO. Yet. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 10/15/2007 12:05:53 PM | 1st: ok, so i used the word argument... ur arguing for ur opinion are u not?
2nd: what is "fan" supposed to mean? are u trying to justify that u are a bigger hockey fan than me because u are older than i am?
3rd: did i say it was flawed because u havent "lowered" ur standards to every hockey fan under the age of 35? no. i said it was flawed because every hockey expert would probably back me on this.
4th: are u still confused as to the difference between an elite team and a dynasty? it sure seems like u are...
5th: how about u show me some statistics or facts to back you on ur "OPINION". | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 10/15/2007 12:15:02 PM | wild did ok last season but really when it came time that they could have stepped up big to lead the divison they failed. the wild were a better team then the nucks but failed to take advantage.
maybe we all have different views of an elite team, im thinking your view of elite is closer to my veiw of a good team. main difference is, a elite team will almost always take advantage of any mistake. make them inpossiable to cacth in the standings. you have to be able to beat the teams you are suppose to beat most of the time. go for the throat when you have the lead, not sit back on defence. you have to be able to win a game with goaltending, defence or offence, depending on whats needed that night. and i have to see you able to challange for the cup, plus be a top 4 team in the reg season. as my view of a elite team is only a step or 2 behind a dynasty team.
besides the wild have only played 1 team out of those 5 that is a possiable threat to do anything this year. pretty easy shed to start the year we will se what they do oct 21st and 24th when they play some teams that they will be fighting with for 8 games each. if the wild are going to win the divison you need to figure taking 10 points from all divison teams, tahts where its going to make and break them.
go flames go
in sutter we trust | |
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| What's an elite team?
Posted: 10/15/2007 12:27:56 PM | I generally regard the top 4-5 teams in each conference the league's "elite". Everyone has their own opinions about this, clearly. But to say that the defending stanley cup champions are not an elite team, wow, I must say, that's setting the bar pretty frikkin high. I guess by those standards there are no elite teams in the NHL.
The Wild did what they did last year without the services of Marion Gaborik for 35 games. 105 points without their star player for nearly half a season. That's pretty good in my books. No other playoff team from last year played that many games without their #1 player...not even close. To me, a major aspect of an elite team is when the rest of the team can continue to play at an above average level without the services of their leader. It's the best indicator of team depth. Minnesota did that last year.
s for them having the easy sched to start this season, yes, they have benefitted from that, but that's only a benefit if you win every game you're supposed to...another sign of an above average team. The Wild have done exactly that to this point. They've won the games they are supposed to win. | |
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Pucks
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Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 4482 | |
| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 10/15/2007 12:34:47 PM | a good start being blown way out of proportion is what i see...elite team omg you cant be serious...
If the Wild teams aim was to prove they were a Stanley Cup elite team contender, then last season has to be seen as a let down, because they were manhandled by eventual cup champions Anaheim in 5 games in the FIRST round of the playoffs.
Further, without Gaborik, The Wild attack lascks the dynamics it needs to be an elite team. They had the 19th ranked offence last year. Gaborik better stay healthy this season, given the Wild were guiet in the free agent market. The other weakness i see is lack of physicalness. While they have a tough enforcer in Boogaard, lack of toughness creates problems for them when the games get down and dirty.
The best case scenario this year is Gaborik stays healthy and Backstrom proves that he wasnt a one season wonder.
IMO i think the Wild management screweed themselves for a better season this year over last by staying relatively quiet in the off season where other teams have made significant improvements. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 10/15/2007 12:50:24 PM |
you have to be able to beat the teams you are suppose to beat most of the time.
that i agree with.
"gabby was on pace to hit 51 goals last season if he could have stayed healthy. the wild were 15-17-2 with him out of the line-up last year. which means with him in the line-up they were 33-9-6 or over a full season that would be 56-15-11, good for 123 points and the presidents trophy."
^that^ point that i made in a previous post should clear things up when it comes to beating teams they should beat. only 9 losses in 48 games with gabby in the line-up last season, thats awesome.
make them inpossiable to cacth in the standings.
some divisions in the league make this impossible now. also, buffalo was the only team that was impossible to catch in the standings last year. were they the only elite team? despite detroits weak division they were still catchable, do u not consider them elite?
besides the wild have only played 1 team out of those 5 that is a possiable threat to do anything this year. pretty easy shed to start the year
so ur saying they have beaten teams at the start of the year that they are supposed to beat right? ;)
i have to see you able to challange for the cup, plus be a top 4 team in the reg season.
this i disagree with. maybe the wild would have contended last season had they not have played the ducks in the 1st round. after all, if the wings (im assuming u would consider them an elite team) played the ducks in the first round they would have been out, right? secondly, the standings point u made. all divisions are different and the standings are not always a good way to predict an elite team when u play within ur division for 32 of the 82 games in the season. take the thrashers last season, or even carolina the year they won the cup. that team wouldnt have made it passed the sabres had buffalo not been missing almost all of their top 6 d-men. however since their division was easy, they also had home ice advantage throught the playoffs and this helped them as well.
until the league does something about the scheduling, i dont think standings matters to a teams status in the league as much as some ppl think.
But to say that the defending stanley cup champions are not an elite team, wow, I must say, that's setting the bar pretty frikkin high. I guess by those standards there are no elite teams in the NHL.
hah, no kidding. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 10/15/2007 12:54:22 PM |
1st: ok, so i used the word argument... ur arguing for ur opinion are u not?
2nd: what is "fan" supposed to mean? are u trying to justify that u are a bigger hockey fan than me because u are older than i am?
3rd: did i say it was flawed because u havent "lowered" ur standards to every hockey fan under the age of 35? no. i said it was flawed because every hockey expert would probably back me on this.
4th: are u still confused as to the difference between an elite team and a dynasty? it sure seems like u are...
5th: how about u show me some statistics or facts to back you on ur "OPINION".
No, I am not arguing for my opinion. That's the beautiful thing about opinions - you don't need to argue for or against them, nor do you need statistics to back up what your personal definition of an elite team is. I said we had different definitions of what that entailed. It's obvious your standards are lower or easier to attain or whatever word you want to use. Doesn't matter.
There is a distinct different between dynasties and elite teams. And again, IMO, there are very, very few dynasties, and no, I don't think the Wings are one of them. They came oh, so close, but not quite. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 10/15/2007 1:01:05 PM |
a good start being blown way out of proportion is what i see...elite team omg you cant be serious...
i predicted the wild taking 3rd in the conference going into the season on page 173 of this thread so no, im not blowing a good start out of proportion. the only reason i had them behind detroit is because of the difference in division/schedule. the only reason i had them behind anaheim was because i was expecting niedermayer and selanne to return this season.
If the Wild teams aim was to prove they were a Stanley Cup elite team contender, then last season has to be seen as a let down, because they were manhandled by eventual cup champions Anaheim in 5 games in the FIRST round of the playoffs.
i guess our opinions of getting manhandled are a little different. 3 losses by 1 goal, 1 3 goal loss, and a 3 goal win to offset it. the wings lost in 6 to the ducks last playoffs, just because it was a different round doesnt mean much in my eyes, maybe it does in urs.
Further, without Gaborik, The Wild attack lascks the dynamics it needs to be an elite team. They had the 19th ranked offence last year. Gaborik better stay healthy this season, given the Wild were guiet in the free agent market.
The best case scenario this year is Gaborik stays healthy and Backstrom proves that he wasnt a one season wonder.
harding is amazing so even if backstrom fails it doesnt matter that much.
that gaborik point is so lame. if joe thorton goes down in san jose, then san jose is screwed as well...
when ur team is ranked #1 in defense, ur offense can be ranked 19th and ur team can still come away with the W. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 10/15/2007 1:03:09 PM |
there are very, very few dynasties, and no, I don't think the Wings are one of them.
we can agree on something at least. | |
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Pucks
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Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 4487 | |
| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 10/15/2007 1:10:31 PM | "that gaborik point is so lame"
No more lame than you no kidding comment about this years Ducks team. Anaheim is without Selanne, Scott Neideryeur and Penner. Scheider who was supposed to help with Neiderymeur's uncertainty with retirement hasnt even played a regular season game as he is injured with a broken foot.
Lame you say...haha so are your baseless comments. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 10/15/2007 1:31:39 PM |
"that gaborik point is so lame"
No more lame than you no kidding comment about this years Ducks team. Anaheim is without Selanne, Scott Neideryeur and Penner. Scheider who was supposed to help with Neiderymeur's uncertainty with retirement hasnt even played a regular season game as he is injured with a broken foot.
Lame you say...haha so are your baseless comments.
here is a quote from my first post on page 180 of this thread.
so ur saying last season the ducks were not considered an elite team in the league?
last being the keyword in that sentence. if niedermayer and selanne were playing then they would easily be considered elite just like last year. a healthy bertuzzi, schneider, and giguere would help too. these things could still happen though since the season is young. to discount them this early is plain stupidity. especially since they have played healthy detroit, minnesota, and pittsburgh in 3 of their first 7 games. not to mention them playing overseas to start things off. dont jump the gun too early or u might just be putting ur foot in ur mouth.
as for u calling my comments baseless? i dont see it, but keep telling urself that. especially since i added the joe thornton point to that which u decided to leave out of ur reply. i havent really seen u rebuttal anything. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 10/15/2007 2:13:28 PM | "If the Wild teams aim was to prove they were a Stanley Cup elite team contender, then last season has to be seen as a let down, because they were manhandled by eventual cup champions Anaheim in 5 games"
Yep...pretty much the same way the Ottawa Senators were manhandled by the same Anaheim team.
"Further, without Gaborik, The Wild attack lascks the dynamics it needs to be an elite team"
Really? Now, I know we've disagreed on this before, but name me another team that lost its leader for 35 games and still made the playoffs last season...actually name me such a team in ANY season in the past 10 years. 105 point without their undisputed leader...I'd say that shows the kind of depth most teams can only dream of.
"IMO i think the Wild management screweed themselves for a better season this year over last by staying relatively quiet in the off season where other teams have made significant improvements."
Tell me what significant improvements the Ducks and Senators made? What about the Predators? The Canucks? The Sharks (oh wait...they picked up Roenick didn't they)? Red Wings?
Now keep in mind, as soon as you mention the Red Wings signing Rafalski, I'll point out that they lost Schneider. As soon as you point out that the Ducks signed Schneider I'll point out that they lost Neidermeyer and Selanne. As soon as you mention that the Sharks signed Roenick I'll just....welll, I'll just laugh.
The point I'm trying to make is that while the Wild did not make a huge splash in the UFA market, they didn't LOSE anyone either. Their major acquisition was Eric Belanger, who simply adds depth to their centre position. We'll have to wait and see if the Wild 'screweed' themselves, as you say, but I'm more along the lines of belief that after recording 105 points without Gaborik for 34 games, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot missing, as far as regular season is concerned.
They'll fill in the gaps at the trade deadline, when those out of playoff contention are sellers. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 10/15/2007 2:17:21 PM | you cant say the wild are a elite team then say "maybe the wild would have contended last season had they not have played the ducks in the 1st round" proves they are not right away. if the wild could have made a showing taking it to 7 then bowing out isnt so bad maybe even 6. only one team will win the cup after all. .
ducks are not the same team they were last year. you cant ride on last years record. its easy to say they have dropped alot. they may have been the best last year but the oilers went to the finals in 05/06 and didnt make playoffs the next, the canes also dropped off big, bolts dissaperead after they won the cup. who knows maybe the ducks finsih 8th this year.
its all why we play the game.
i wouldnt say any team is a elite team yet. i couldnt even really without guessing who is good or not. lots of games to play lots of things to happen. there is some safer picks to make the playoffs then other teams but nothing is set in stone. this talk really should be put on hold till around game 30 then we could really start talking about who is elite and not. then wacth games 30-60 to see who is still in shape mid season but the elite must also finsih strong so the back half we need to see to. so ill decide come june.
but really to early to tell right now.
go flames go
in suter we trust | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 10/15/2007 2:27:49 PM |
you cant say the wild are a elite team then say "maybe the wild would have contended last season had they not have played the ducks in the 1st round" proves they are not right away. if the wild could have made a showing taking it to 7 then bowing out isnt so bad maybe even 6. only one team will win the cup after all.
ur right only one team will win the cup, but more than one team will be elite. i guess its ur opinion that just because they didnt take it to 6 or 7 games that they arent elite. however like ive stated before, 3 of the losses were 1 goal losses, and the wings also lost to the ducks but in 1 more game.
i wouldnt say any team is a elite team yet. i couldnt even really without guessing who is good or not. lots of games to play lots of things to happen. there is some safer picks to make the playoffs then other teams but nothing is set in stone. this talk really should be put on hold till around game 30 then we could really start talking about who is elite and not. then wacth games 30-60 to see who is still in shape mid season but the elite must also finsih strong so the back half we need to see to. so ill decide come june.
agreed. how about, i think the wild will ONCE AGAIN be elite this season and i have already stated my reasons why :)
alright, ill revisit this once the season is in full swing. go wild, prove the doubters wrong.
but most of all, go wings!  | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 10/15/2007 2:48:51 PM | they did not take charge when they could have pulled ahead last year, at any time they had a chance to pass the nucks they failed. at one point they had games in hand and only a few points back and yet failed no where near elite last season.
and that is why they were not a elitle team. the one real defining thing that would be keeping them from that next step.
go flames go
in sutter we trust | |
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Pucks
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Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 4493 | |
| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 10/15/2007 2:53:37 PM | Jokester,
Do the Ducks and Sens really need much improvement? I dont think so.
While Anaheim is without Selanne and Scott, they did sign Schieder to deal with that. Selanne's absence will be dealt with by even better play by guys like Getzalf, Perry, Pahlsson and Moen. Bertuzzi will take Penner's spot easily and I think the young and upcoming stars will have great years as evident in last years playoffs.
Getzaf lead the Duck team in playoff points with 17, Perry had 15, McDonald 14, Phalsson 12, Moen 12 and Rob N. 10...That is depth.
Pronger is still there as well and Giguiere has proven himself to be a top goaltender in the league.
Ottawa has a solid net tandem with great play of Emery and Gerber showing is good now this year that was seen in Carolina. They have depth in defense and offense. Aside from the #1 Heatly line they have Fisher, Vermette, Volchenov, and even Neil scores.
So i dont think the Sens and Ducks needed to do much with free agent signings...One was a cup winner the other the finalist.
Red Wings are in the same boat. A strong team that does not need much. Great offensive and defensive game.
As for your comment on what the Preds and Canucks did...well imo there not part of the strongest teams so i wont even go there. Colorado prolly did the most out of these 3 teams by adding Scott Hannan, Ryan Smyth.
While the Wild didnt lose much they certainly didnt add, not much different than the Nucks. They certainly looked like they should have after the Ducks manhandled them in round 1 last year.
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 10/15/2007 3:45:54 PM | So you say the ducks and sens don't need improvement, I say neither do the Wild. I guess we will agree to disagreee on this on (go figure)
Incidentally, Ottawa looked worse against Anaheim than Minnesota did.
Oh...and your comment about Backstrom being a one-year wonder...tell me how it is that you are so quick to dismiss Backstrom yet think Emery is so great? Of the two of them, I'm thinking Ray will be the one sitting on the bench by the end of the season, if he isn't in jail. That guy's a loose cannon and I can see him completely unraveling at some point.
Anyway, I can't believe I've wasted this much time talking about the Wild. I'm coming off as a fan of theirs and I'm not, by any stretch. They are a better cure for insomnia than warm milk. But I do think they'll win the NorthWest. You don't have to be exciting to be effective. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 10/15/2007 6:12:19 PM | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite
Man have you folks taken this thread to the depths of absurdity or what? The Minnesota Wild are an elite team??? Give me a f.ukking break. This is hilarious. If they play the whole season the way they've started then they will be perhaps the first elite type team I've seen since Scotty Bowman was behind the red Wings bench, and before that the Habs bench.
Elite teams usually have a championship or three under their belt before they get compared to the Oilers of the late 80's the Penguins of the early 90's, the islanders in the early 80's, the habs before them. Please. Settle down on here. The Wild are an elite team. That's the funniest laff I've had yet on this thread.
Elite teams are head and shoulders above the rest. That's why they're called elite. Get it? I have not seen a team head and shoulders above the rest of the league since the 97/98 Red Wings. An elite team is like the London Knights in Junior hockey a couple of years back where they were head and shoulders, i.e. on their own, i.e. in an elite class unto themselves, way above the rest.
Have a nice day. Hope that helps. | |
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Pucks
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Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 4496 | |
| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 10/15/2007 6:16:18 PM | ^^^I never said Emery was so great. I said that the Sens have a solid goalie tandem in Gerber and Emery, and that their team was and all rounded defensive and offensively balanced with depth.
Ray could very well be sitting on the bench. I said several posts ago that he has his work cut out with him with Gerber playing so well. Emery and Backstrom are similiar in that they really have only each had one good year to their credit.
Like i said, pages ago too, the wild are a good team, and i even predicted they will finish second in their division and 4th in the West. I just dont see them going far in the playoffs (lack of depth) but it is possible if Gaborik stays healthy and Backstrom continues to play well. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 10/15/2007 6:45:20 PM | There. There's a perfect example of an elite team. With 3 seconds left, the leafs are an elite team in a class of their own when it comes to giving up third period leads. The leafs are an elite team. They will go down in history as the biggest bunch of sad sacks the hockey world has ever seen in the third period.
2-0 Leafs after 2.
5-4 Sabres final.
Brutal. In a class of their own. The most expensive starting 4 Defencemen in the league headed for another 26th place finish defensively. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 10/15/2007 7:57:07 PM | Nice goal by McCabe tonight. Way to pick the corner! Nice goal....wrong net...but man, that puck had eyes!!! | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 10/15/2007 8:56:02 PM | | ya. low to Raycroft's glove side if I remember it correct. But hey, a gamewinner's a gamewinner. Clutch. | |
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Pucks
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Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 4500 | |
| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 10/16/2007 8:02:22 AM | Canucks choked in the third period as well blowing their lead
and end up losing 4-2 to Joe Thornton and company.
Leafs arent the only team that blows leads. | |
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