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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 1/6/2008 3:15:16 PM | Happy New Year Slysterling how are those Wolves doing this year?
Well Mr Roenick is not washed up and I would sign him in a heartbeat, I did name my youngest son after him as well. Mr Hartsburg can whisper in Mr Bells ear but I believe he is a product of the St Mary's minor hockey system and they will not consider him from Stratford (he did however play one season for the Cullitons). As you probably already know he is from St Pauls which in the minor hockey system is a grey area. Mr Hartsburg did play minor hockey in Stratford, my claim to fame I played on the same Novice team that he did.
Yes some players have had great sucess in Toronto and Gilmour is a great example of that. When he left Toronto he wasn't effective for sure, well not in Chicago anyways. I know Toronto is a country club, but I think it's time the Leaf Brass got some good draft picks and added some youth to their program. They will still fill the building and these young guys will get into the fans hearts for sure. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 1/6/2008 3:57:04 PM | Ya I roomed with a guy first year at Waterloo that played with Hartsburg when he was with the Cullitons but i didn't know how to spell it
Gilmour was past his prime by the time he hit Chicago. As for Roenick I really gained a fair bit more respect for him when the Flyers ousted our Leafs in 03. Him and tucker went right to war in that series. Tucker hit Roenick so hard I thought i saw stars myself, but he picked himself back up off the mat and never missed a shift. Actaully that was the last good hockey i saw tucker play. I was hoping the leafs would have picked Roenick up, but i was worried about the TV environment for JR because he is a bit of a hammy showboat and probably might not have settled down into his role with the Sharks where the team doesn't get anywhere near the attention the Toronto media showers on these guys.
Old ties eh? Dougie Wilson knew he's still got some hockey left in him and talked him into coming back out of retirement, so i have to correct myself on that waiver wire thing with him and Recchi.
as for """... but I think it's time the Leaf Brass got some good draft picks...""" it wont be this year as most of our good picks went with the Bell/Toskala deal. Myself I think they're willing to tank not ony this year but next year as well to secure Tavares. Can't really be any other explanantion for playing such lousy hockey most nights. But i'm only half kidding. i doubt folks like Sundin would ever be non-professional like that.
I'm kind of hoping they trade Sundin now to a contender in the next month. Not that I'd like to see him move on because i think he's done a great job this year carrying this bunch of sadsacks on his back, and i think he's been a pretty class captain all round. But if they traded him now, they'd help put a lot of leaf fans out of their misery for this year. I doubt I'd even bother to watch them again this year and I could focus on other things, like say, watching a competitive team. By now i've half given up expecting them to win and just watch Sundin since he's really the only professional they have on that club anymore. I like Blake too, but he's one hurting unit these days with all his shots on goal. Now he just presses way too hard and seldom does anything good happen when you start playing outside of yourself.
Wolves are struggling this year. Stortini's moved on to Edmonton, Staal's back on the blueline for the Broadway Blueshirts and Foligno Jr. has been up and down a few times with the Sens, so our hometown Wolves probably won't be making any late season runs thus year. Stortini and Foligno are local boys so most folks are pretty happy with the way Zack has been handling himself so far.
Cheers
ps i remembered a couple of other deals where the guy was no longer good enough to play for us....Danny Markov, Trees Yushkevic, Rusty Courtnall, Yannick Perrault, Ozzy Osbourne (Cup with the Rangers), Matthieu Schneider, Damphousse
...hurts to think about them all down thru the years.
As for guys forgetting how to play once they got here, some more could be Glenny Anderson, Mike Bullard, Dave Gagner, Kenny Klee, Tommy Fergus, Benoit Hogue, Tom Kurvers, Renberg, Reichel, Mogilny, Zezel, Sergio Momesso, Linseman, Jerky Lumme, and of course, we cant forget the last couple of years with Allison, Kavanov last year, and two of the biggest busts of all time, Dmitri Kristich and Mary Czerkawski... | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 1/7/2008 9:35:05 AM | what are you talking about?? Markov and Yushkevich were excellent when they were here. Yushkevich' career only went on a downward slope late in his career when injuries started catching up to him. Markov was also a key part of our playoff runs in 1999 and 2000..
Damphousse was here at the beginning of his career, not at the end of it
Schneider was always solid too as was Perreault when he played in the late 90s for us early 00's.
And Mogilny?? The guy was the first player not named Mats Sundin the last 15 years to lead the Leafs in scoring and you say this man forgot how to play when he got here?? Give your head a shake. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 1/7/2008 9:55:27 AM | """...Markov and Yushkevich were excellent when they were here....Damphousse...Schneider was always solid too as was Perreault"""
That was exactly the point. Try reading.
Maybe give your own head a shake. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 1/7/2008 2:21:35 PM | | looked like your point was that these players weren't good when they were here. | |
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Pucks
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Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 5081 | |
| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 1/7/2008 2:48:17 PM | "but i think its time the Leaf Brass got some good draft picks and added some youth to their program"
i dont see this as being the problem. They have plenty of youth. Steen, Tjusty, Stajan, Devearux up front are young. Toskola is not that old...and they have Pogge developing and waiting in the wings with the Marlies. Its the young D men i have not been impressed with. I like Colcavicco but this dude is so injury prone, White is a great puck rusher but his size is a liablity on the back end and Stralman and Wozenski (sp>) are weak and should stay in Marlie land.
i say trade for a quality D man....Anti up Tucker and Ponyboy perhaps? God did i say that...one of my fav players Tucker has been but this year he's been horrible.
As for the trade Sundin talk......perhaps if you could get a couple first round picks...if not NO way...he is the only one scoring for the leafs, kills penalties and is one of their better all round players. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 1/7/2008 2:52:50 PM | msg 5080:
Nope. But I probably should have put the word "apparently" in there . As in Danny Markov and trees Yushkevic and Damphousee etc. were 'apparently' not good enough for the Leafs, but good enough to go somewhere else. Sarcasms sometimes hard to denote in a forum. Maybe I should have put a 'rolling eyes' icon or something to make it clearer.
As for Mogilny, you're probably right. He did beat Sundin the second year he was with us by 7 points. His first season was very mediocre with us with something like 55 points which is good by Leaf standards but not that great when judged by Mogilny's standards.
Also you might remember, in 03/04 it was Mogilny's jaw-dropping blind pass behind our own net straight onto to the Flyers stick in front of our net in game 6 in Overtime that handed the Series to the Flyers. Those types of plays are hard not to remember.
The next year after the lockout he played about 30 games as his hip was bothering him. So really we got one half decent season out of him, plus a not bad playoff performance from him in 02 when the Canes eventually knocked us out of the Final.
He signed the next year (05) with the Devils and then shortly thereafter retired from the game probably fed up playing for the Albany River Rats.. But you're right with Mogilny. We've had other above average players come to the leafs in the past only to hit much lower levels of mediocrity than him, so you can take Mogilny off that list if you like. No skin off my nose.
Cheers.
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 1/7/2008 4:00:21 PM | """...As for the trade Sundin talk..."""
How about a conspiracy theory?
I've been kicking this one around in my head for awhile and some of my chums figure it might not be outside the realm of the possible. First, for the record i wouldn't want to see Mats get a trade because i think he's just a great hockey player and one of the alltime best leafs, and probably in some folks minds, the alltime best. As soon as they do trade him, I'm probably pretty much done watching these ragtags butcher the game of hockey for another year. It's just too painful to watch these guys play a game that used to go by the name of hockey.
I think that Sundin had given us the utmost in terms of effort and I believe in his heart he's a Leaf thru and thru.
Here's a theory. Maybe Sundin only signed the one year deal because he knows how challenging it is to swing a deal in this cap era. He says to Fergy look, sign me for a year. If the team looks like it's sucking the hind tit by the allstar break (which it looks like it is or will be), then trade me for a couple of good young kids and I'll come back and resign another one year deal next summer.
He's already seen the leafs bring Wendel back twice and Killer once and he saw Glen Wesley do the same thing on us a couple of years back going back to his Canes during the summer after spending a couple of weeks with us from a late season deal..The one year deal makes Sundin much easier to be shopped around.
Sundin to me is one pretty classy Leaf. I could almost see him doing the thinking for Fergy on this one.
By the way Peddie is going with them on this trip out west because as he says: If Mats is going to get traded, then out of respect for Mats, all deals will have to go thru him and then the board before they're approved. So things might actually be warming up in this picture.
Laugh at me if you want. You have my permission.lol It's just a theory.
Ok. i'm done with leaf talk for awhile. Before kaos and the rest of the boobirds come back out of their caves. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 1/7/2008 6:29:37 PM | | In response to message 5081. Boyd Devearux another Straford Culliton graduate by the way is no spring chicken he has been in the NHL for over 10 years now. I disagree with you on the youth program in Toronto, they have a bad habit of trading draft picks for players who don't usually do well in Toronto. That was my point from my first post a few days back. These days if you don't draft well you will sink fast! Trust me I know how painful it is being a Blackhawk fan to live through a rebuilding process. I will be quite interested in seeing how these two teams compare in the years to come if the Leafs don't do something. My advice trade Tucker, trade Sundin and live through some tough years and build a contender the old fashioned way. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 1/7/2008 7:43:43 PM |
As for Mogilny, you're probably right. He did beat Sundin the second year he was with us by 7 points. His first season was very mediocre with us with something like 55 points which is good by Leaf standards but not that great when judged by Mogilny's standards.
Also you might remember, in 03/04 it was Mogilny's jaw-dropping blind pass behind our own net straight onto to the Flyers stick in front of our net in game 6 in Overtime that handed the Series to the Flyers. Those types of plays are hard not to remember.
The next year after the lockout he played about 30 games as his hip was bothering him. So really we got one half decent season out of him, plus a not bad playoff performance from him in 02 when the Canes eventually knocked us out of the Final.
Reason Mogilny didn't produce premier numbers, well there are two reasons, is first of all, he got older and as you said, had hip problems, so he couldn't be the same flashy player that he was in the early 90s. Mogilny did become a spectacular playmaker though and helped out a lot of players on this team. Second of all, he really never got that much ice time aside from the powerplay. He played on the 3rd line mostly as Quinn never stacked his lines and always opted to spread out his talent between lines. We had a Roberts-Sundin-Renberg line followed by something like Poni-Reichel-Antropov and Mogilny played with Tucker and someone else whose name escapes me now. Not easy to get points with these kind of players..
As for his heroics in the playoffs, well, you mentioned the 2002 run and I believe Mogilny had 2 out of our 3 goals in game 7 against the sens. That's also hard not to remember. As for the flyers, the leafs lost that series when Tucker knocked out Kapanen which led to Sundin breaking away, getting high sticked in the mouth and Roenick scoring on the other end of the ice moments later.. nothing to do with Mogilny. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 1/7/2008 7:47:06 PM | oops, forgot to mention Mogilny's stint with new jersey. it was right after the lockout when the salary cap was introduced and the devils signed mogilny to a 3.5 million contract. Elias was injured at the time so his salary didn't count against the cap. Once Elias returned, they had to do something with Mogilny because his salary put them over the cap limit, so Lamoriello sent him down to the minors..
Later on they said that he's injured and put him on injured reserve so that his salary doesnt count against the cap the following year which ended his career. Despite the "injury", Mogilny played some exhibition games in Finland and Russia shortly after, so I firmly believe the Devils pulled a sneaky one there just to get themselves out of the cap mess.
Pretty sad way to end his career.. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 1/7/2008 8:13:45 PM | """...Tucker knocked out Kapanen..."""
you mean this hit?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwFW-AA2O1Q&NR=1
lol
You gotta a pretty good memory on ya..
The Mogilny giveaway was actually the year before in Game 6 against Carolina in OT to end our run to the Stanley Cup Final.
Hard to be tuff on Mogilny though. as the entire team pulled like a team that year and worked their nuts off to make it to the Eastern final. The Cinderella Canes. We should have crushed those guys after the first two rounds we got thru. That was the year Sundin was out right up until that last game. Roberts was a monster. Now there's another guy that didn't underperform when he came to the Leafs, Roberts.
"""...Mogilny played with Tucker and someone else whose name escapes me now..."""
maybe Corson i think. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 1/7/2008 8:24:20 PM | yeah, but your post said "Mogilny giveaway that handed the series to the flyers" which threw me off a bit.. yeah, I remember his giveaway to the Canes. But really, blaming the guy for one bad goal when he did so much for us that year is unfair I think.
bigger problem with that team was that they rushed Sundin and Tucker back into the lineup too quickly. we did fine when they were out and then they came in clearly unable to play and that hampered the team badly.. to me that's a much bigger problem than Mogilny's one giveaway which can probably be blamed on whoever didn't pick up the puck from him.. I mean he sent it behind our own net, defensemen should be around somewhere! | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 1/7/2008 8:43:48 PM | """...bigger problem with that team was that they rushed Sundin and Tucker back into the lineup too quickly. we did fine when they were out and then they came in clearly unable to play and that hampered the team badly.. to me that's a much bigger problem than Mogilny's one giveaway..."""
Absolutely. And I believe it was Reichel that didn't pick up on what Mogilny was trying to do because for some reason those two guys were alone back there if i remember correct. It all happened innocently, but suddenly, and then poof it was in the net. It was sudden death for sure from my seat.. And then just this big empty feeling knowing the run is over. Same feeling as 93.
You're right about rushing those guys in. We were missing defencemen as well too if i remember. We had Nathan Dempsey and some other young gun on defence that had an awesome point shot too. i can't remember who he is right now. McCauley was trailing to the net and picking up Roberts leftovers and potting them like ninety in the Sens series. Those two guys had good chemistry between them.
Quinn always liked experienced guys so he brought the old vets back in while the rest of the team had been playing mighty tuff. We were down 3-2 in the Series to the Canes and we had just won Game 5 so they'd really had our number up until that point in that one, even though we had carried the play the entire series. Quinn will forever maybe be second guessed on bringing them back. Tough call either way.
The opening round against the Islanders was one of the nastiest series' I've ever seen. Peca was with the Islanders.
Lamorello with mogilny has been the only ones so far to be able to sidestep the cap with the shenanigans that went on with that hip thing. He had it count against the club in one way, but in some other way it didn't count so it still allowed Lamorello to do some manouvering with his club. I'm not sure how all that played out.
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 1/8/2008 5:27:38 AM | Yeah, we were 6 ****ing games away from the cup. The canes lost in 5 to detroit in the finals I believe and I really think that if we made it to the finals, we would've given Detroit a real war especially because we would've gotten some bodies back.
As far as Quinn goes, he didn't even coach half the games against the Canes. He had some heart problems I think and was in the hospital for most of the series so we had Rick Ley coach the team which didn't really help our cause.
The defenseman you are probably talking about is Karel Pilar. That guy was going to be our top 4 guy for years to come until he got that freak injury.. It's really unfortunate because he was a hell of a player.
And yeah, I think at one point in that playoffs we had something like 11 players injured at the same time.. it was ridiculous and made those wins all the more precious.. I wasn't around in '93, so the '02 run was definitely my favourite time as a Leafs fan.. It's been downhill since then lol | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 1/8/2008 6:33:46 AM | As of 1-08-08
Eastern Conference
Ottawa 41-27-10
Jersey 41-23-15
Carolina 44-21-19
Western Conference
Detroit 43-32-8
San Jose 41-23-12
Calgary 43-22-14
My Red Wings are on a roll. | |
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Pucks
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Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 5092 | |
| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 1/8/2008 11:40:48 AM | i cant believe Downie didnt get suspended for that sucker punch on Blake.
what a joke. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 1/8/2008 1:24:51 PM | I didn't see the tape, but from what was being said around the water cooler today, most people share your sentiments Puck.
When do the Flyers play the Predators?
Maybe the hockey Gods will shine upon us all and Downie and Tootoo will end each other's careers simultaneously. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 1/8/2008 1:30:12 PM | ^^^
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAfGjAcq1Co
he got a double minor and I thought they said last night the NHL fined him, but I haven't found verification of it.
Downie off the hook
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL/Toronto/2008/01/08/4758158-sun.html | |
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Pucks
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Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 5095 | |
| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 1/8/2008 4:49:31 PM | ya im friggin ticked about the escape Downie got from the NHL....How could they turn a blind eye on this?
Is it just me or should Downie not have faced a reprocusions for this....at the very least a fine was in order. A few games would have been appropriate though in my mind. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 1/8/2008 4:53:03 PM | On a positive Oiler note, nice to see that MacTavish finally got his butt out of his arse and named Garon the official number-one goalie. He did it yesterday at the press conference and how does Garon respond? With a 35-save shutout performance.
Take a seat Rollie. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 1/8/2008 5:36:15 PM | They have to trade Sundin here are his stats.. 1998-1999 was his best year when he made captain.. Going by +/- and he has gone down hill ever since.. His +/- was the absolute worst last year -2 incredible.. They did better with him off the ice..
Season Team GP G A P +/-
1998-1999 Maple Leafs 82 31 52 83 22
1999-2000 Maple Leafs 73 32 41 73 16
2000-2001 Maple Leafs 82 28 46 74 15
2001-2002 Maple Leafs 82 41 39 80 6
2002-2003 Maple Leafs 75 37 35 72 1
2003-2004 Maple Leafs 81 31 44 75 11
2005-2006 Maple Leafs 70 31 47 78 7
2006-2007 Maple Leafs 75 27 49 76 -2 | |
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Pucks
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Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 5098 | |
| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 1/8/2008 5:58:17 PM | Goaliebns, ^^^^that is a weak argument.
Its obvious your a Sens fan who has a hardon for Mats.
Sundin, as of today for this season is a plus 11. He has 20 G and 28A already. He is on pace, assuming he stays injury free, to get 40 goals and 90 plus points....He has averaged a point a game his whole career. Lets compare you talk of plus/minus to the other top scorers this year shall we...The league leader in points Lecavalier, is currently a plus 4...much lower than Mats. Hmmm lets see, oh number 3 in scoring, Kovalchuk is a Minus 6...are these players in need of a trade too? Give me a break. Even Crosby has a worse plus/minus than Sundin at plus 10, (Sundin plus 11) and the Pens have been winning lately. Like i said your argument makes no sense.
If Mats wasnt valuable anymore, was not scoring and his game was falling apart then ya trade him...Its not however.
"they have to trade Sundin"
and where would they get their scoring from....Antropov? He is the teams second leading goal scorer at 15 goals, but he has not scored in 11 games. As discussed above, a trade would only be viable and worth it if they took a high first round pick, preferably two. Mats is not only leads the team in scoring, he is valuable on the penalty kill and and an all round player.
Leaf fans want him to stay, unless it makes sense to get ride of him. Your arguement as a Sens fan makes no sense.
Try harder to knock the best European captain.
Alfie lover. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 1/8/2008 6:10:25 PM | The entire +/- category is one of the feablest statistics in hockey. Consider this - Marty McSorley was the top +/- player in the league when he played with the LA kings. Ever since that year, I stopped paying too much attention to that stat.
But if you're going to base Sundin's output on his +/- stats, you have to look at the team's stats as a whole. I only went back the past two years but here's what I found. Last year the Toronto Maple Leafs were +2 as a team...so Sundin being -2 is negligible.
In 05/06 the Leafs as a team were a dismal -27, so Sundin's +7 sparkles in comparison.
I don't know whether trading Sundin is the answer for the Leafs, but I agreee that they certainly haven't done much with him as a captain. My question to you, goaliebns, is - who do you get for him? | |
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| Speaking of trade rumours...
Posted: 1/8/2008 6:14:38 PM | While we're on the subject of trade rumours, here's one I heard today....
To Florida - Robyn Reghere and a 1st round draft pick
To Calgary - Oli Jokinen
Smack? Any comments? | |
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