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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 2/5/2008 8:12:28 PM | Fighting is an integrel part of the game. You cannot separate the two.
As Don Cherry predicted 20 years ago face masks and the instigator rule have caused more head and neck injuries.
Was he a bigot for saying that?
As for the Red Wings Bob Probert and Joey Koccur two of the greatest fighters in NHL history were important parts of this run.
Montreal has had its share of fighters also. Edmonton had McSorely.
Last year Anaheim fought it's way to the Cup.
Some teams have won without it and that is good but there is nothing wrong with a good fight between to willing combatants.
As for Detroit they are a great team that went to a conference final last year. This year they are tougher but they still lack that Canadian leader. I love them but until I see Lidstrom(non Canadian) raise that Cup I wont beleive it.
“I never, ever said 'don't wear a visor,'”
“What I said was if you're wearing a visor and you're going for safety, OK. But don't go around being a tough guy.”
Don Cherry | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 2/5/2008 8:53:00 PM | "As for the Red Wings Bob Probert and Joey Koccur two of the greatest fighters in NHL history were important parts of this run"
Probert was an important part of WHAT run?
Probert was as important a part of any Stanley Cup in Detroit's history as Petr Klima
And if you'd bother to read my post, you'll see that I agree with you. Fighting is an integral part of the game. That doesn't mean I have to like watching hockey fights.
For Don Cherry to tell me I am insane if I don't like watching fights in hockey...well....I consider the souce and take it with a grain of salt.
Furthermore, again, if you'd take the time to read my post, you wouldn't have to ask whether Don Cherry's predictions make him a bigot. I give you the definition of a bigot in my previous post.
As for the increase in head injuries, ask any doctor how often concussions were diagnosed, not just in hockey, but for ANYTHING, 20, 30, 40 years ago. I can tell you from experience that in the 70s, doctors had very little information on concussions, or any brain injuries for that matter. A lot of the increase in head injuries comes from the fact that doctors know how to diagnose a concussion now, where back in the days before face masks and helmets, concussions were a relatively unknown, or at least misunderstood injury.
What is the increase in head injuries in football?
What is the increase in head injuries in soccer? In rugby?
The percentage of head injuries in those sports has risen just as dramatically in the past 20 years.
To insinuate that the introduction of the instigator rule is the reason for the increase in head injuries is ...ummm...
As for the instigator rule, I also believe it should be removed, as it has proven to be useless in regards to the reason it was brought in in the first place. It has done absolutely nothing to curb fighting in the NHL, so it's a useless rule. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 2/5/2008 10:18:25 PM | Well not being from the Detroit area I guess you would not know of the importance of probert in Detroit. His contributions in the late 80s. Were instumental to the success of the 90s. He still lives in Windsor and is immensly popular in the Detroit area.
As for Cherry being a bigot. Give your head a shake he is reafering to thier style of play.
And if he is a bigot why does he like Euros who play tough? answer because he is not a bigot!
As for the increase in head injuries, ask any doctor how often concussions were diagnosed, not just in hockey, but for ANYTHING, 20, 30, 40 years ago. I can tell you from experience that in the 70s, doctors had very little information on concussions, or any brain injuries for that matter.
So 20 years ago doctors couldn't diagnose a concussion?
Crazy!
I don't know what games you have been watching the past 20 years but fighting was drastically down. Last year Anaheim proved that you can fight and win. This year fights are up as a result.
The instigator rule is a terrible rule because it prevents teams from protecting their slilled players. You stick, run or goon someone and you used to pay a price. Gretzky got to do the things he did because of the open ice McSorley and Semenko created for him by their presence in the game. The instigator rule made that power play to important to take the chance.
Thank God Aneheim came along and brought back good old fashioned Canadian "Rock Em, Sock Em Hockey
One question prairie.... Ever play hockey?
"Everybody's a fan of his growing up; we all watched Coach's Corner. I'm his number one fan." –Joe Thornton | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 2/6/2008 4:08:13 AM | Once again I post, for those of you (kaos) who absolutely refuse to recognize or read my postings:
A bigot by definition is: someone who holds an opinion obstinately and IS INTOLERANT of anyone whose opinion varies.
"Anybody who says they don't like fighting in the NHL have to be out of their minds.”
Don Cherry
I'd say calling people who don't like fighting in hockey "out of their minds" is a pretty clear statement of intolerance of someone else's opinion.
You have successfully proved my point by bringing up this Don Cherry quote. Thank you Kaos. English lesson is done for today.
In response to your comment about concussions and the recognition thereof .. crazy? Like I said. Ask a doctor. ANY doctor. The advances made in the prognosis and understanding of brain injuries in the past 20-40 years is phenomenal.
Crazy? I'd say more like "thank God". But hey...you're entitled to your own opinion. As is Joe Thornton.
"Everyone is entitled to an opinion, no matter how wrong it is."
Howie Meeker (I believe)
As for your question "ever play hockey prairie", not that it matters whatsoever to the argument, because it doesn't, but yes, I have played a lot of hockey. In 1974 I spent 10 days in a hospital with a concussion, because the doctors were so worried they didn't want to send me home. All they knew at that time was that a nurse had to come in and check on me every hour for the first three days and physically wake me up.
In 1990 I lost an eye to hockey. Had I been wearing a visor, I'd still have two eyes.
So yeah, I've not only played hockey. I've suffered its consequences. Ad before you throw the "bitter" card my way, don'y bother. I love the sport.
"Thank God Aneheim came along and brought back good old fashioned Canadian "Rock Em, Sock Em Hockey"
Hilarious quote coming from a Detroit fan.
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 2/6/2008 7:12:14 PM | Prairie you are the one that needs to reads posts more clearly. As for your concussion. I thought there were no concussions pre 1990? So you are a former House League hockey player and weekend warrier who now wants to clean up hockey because you were injured. Thank God you don't have a vote.
As for the bigot thing... give it arrest . Just because you disagree with his opinion does not make him a bigot. But by your definition it does make you one.
As for "Rck Em Sock Em Hockey" it's the only way to fly.
Probert, Koccur, Chelios, Shanahan, the "Grind" line. Watch out McCarty is making a comback. Here comes that Canadian leadership in Detroit. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 2/6/2008 7:59:53 PM | Ah yes, I definitely remember saying there were no concussions pre-1990. Do you just pick this stuff out of the air or what?
That's as inane as saying there was no such thing as prostate cance prior to 20 years ago. I never once said, or insinuated, that concussions didn't exist. I said that doctors knew very little (and of course that's all relative to today) in regards to brain injuries in the past. Does it mean they didn't exist? No, it means doctors were not sure how to diagnose them... much like prostate cancer.
As for hockey, Yep, you're right ... house league all the way ... one step above the beer leagues you ref in Detroit. I admit, I wasn't an NHLer, but you didn't ask that. You asked if I ever played hockey. Now you want to know what level? Oh ok...because unless you were a pro, your opinion doesnt count. Guess that crosses you off the list as well.
Oh...and if you honestly believe the NHL didn't institute the instigator penalty in an effort to curb fighting, then I can be fairly confident in my assessment that it is YOU who does not know the sport.
Again, I am not intolerant of Don Cherry's opinion. He's entitled to it. I am not the one who said anyone who doesn't agree with me is insane
Oh and Bob Probert being an integral part of the Detroit Red Wings' successes because "he still lives in Detroit?" Wow...that's pretty weak. You'd better come up with a better argument than that as to how Bob Probert helped the Detroit Red Wings' win three Stanley Cups, considering he was playing for the Chicago Blackhawks the whole time of the Wings' Stanley Cup wins.
Oh wait. I think I just answered that question. THAT is how he helped the Detroit Red Wings... by playing for Chicago. They got rid of him and they started winning! OK, you got me there. I agree with you fully. 
ZIIING!!!!!
OK I've wasted enough time debunking all your weak-kneed retorts.
Next topic please. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 2/6/2008 9:54:31 PM | Again you need to take a remedial reading course.
Keep backpeddeling on the concussions.
I did not say Probert was on the Cup teams only that he was a part of the Wings long run of success.
I did state the instigator rule was brought in to curb fighting.
I did figure you for a houseleaguer just not a bigot!
I have no more comments regarding this as you are clearly still suffering from the head injury and wish not to cause you any more pain. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 2/6/2008 10:31:48 PM | """...Next topic please..."""
Washington Capitals for 200...
20-10-4 so far under Bruce Boudreau as they move into that 3rd spot in the East. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 2/7/2008 3:43:45 AM | Washington AND Montreal have both quietly gone about tearing up the Eastern Conference.
I don't think many people outside the province of Quebec could name 5 players on that team and yet there they are, one point out of the penthouse.
And Washington, wow...amazing what a coaching change can do for a club. St. Louis proved that last year - the Blues just waited too long to make the move. Apparently the Caps paid heed to that mistake.
And the Oilers have put together a couple of character wins (5-0 Calgary, 4-1 Chicago) since losing their leading scorer for the season (Shawn Horcoff). Nice to see they're not just mailing it in like they did last year at this time.
Kind of surprised smack hasn't been on here yet, to gloat about the Flames' latest signing. Good on them. That's a pretty impressive core locked up – Iginla, Regher, Kipper and now Phaneuf.
Dion had better put Kevin Lowe on his Christmas list, is all I can say - as should every other 08' RFA who has hit the jackpot this winter. No way would these contracts be handed out the way they have been had he not signed Vanek, the Penner, to those massive contract sheets. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 2/7/2008 6:02:53 AM | Phaneuf came pretty cheap in light of what Lowe is willing to pay a guy like Souray for a banged up shoulder and 26 games.
Oilers don't look dead in the grass just yet. Mac T's gotten a lot of mileage out of his young guns this year. I'd swap anyone MacT for Paul Maurice any day of the week and we'd throw in a few hockey sticks and a couple of bags of pucks as well. Is it time for that late season push now by the Oilers? They'll be a tough little nut to knock out if they do get in with all their youth and speed. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 2/7/2008 7:29:36 AM | There are some people that are convinced that MacT is a lousy coach, but I think he has done an amazing job over the last few years considering what he has had to work with and with the injuries and all.
As for Phaneuf, a lot of Calgary fans thought that is more than they expected to pay him, but are happy that he is signed. I think they were expecting in the 5.5 to 6 million range per year. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 2/7/2008 7:51:06 AM | """...There are some people that are convinced that MacT is a lousy coach, but I think he has done an amazing job over the last few years considering what he has had to work with and with the injuries and all..."""
I read a lot of sports blogs and surf the Oiler sites sometimes and i can't understand for the life of me, fans knocking this guy. He's forgotten more about hockey than most of these fans will apparently ever know. Give him a half decent club and a good backup goaler and ride him to a 7 game Stanley Cup final when you're not even picked to make the playoffs. Now that's good coaching. He does the best he can with what he's given to work with and he preaches fundamentals, fundamentals, fundamentals which is a large part of what coaching's all about.
Like pundit said, he's good at getting 20 guys to all row the boat in the same direction. Maurice on the other hand, wants his defencemen pinching in all the time, but forgets to coach the forawrds to slide back and cover the D-men. You just don't see the comedy of errors on the young oilers squad that we see every night with thse leafs. Now he's (Maurice) blubbering on about saving the body but operating on the soul or whatever whatever. He seriously hasn't got a clue. Comes across more as a jock sniffer than a head coach. Mac-T is a professional head coach. If the Oilers are foolish enough to dump this guy with the new ownership, watch for him to land back on his feet in New York or somewhere. ...maybe even in leafland. i'd be more than happy to have him as a head coach. He won't be out of work very long, him.
Mac-T is one of the most under-rated coaches in the NHL. He's an asset to the Oiler's in my mind, but, i don't get to see them as much as the Oilers do. I liked him as a hockey player, and think he's done a great job with this Oiler team. That team should have been buried deep in the standings back in November when you lost all your defencemen. But they keep hanging around and hanging around. i see them leaping past the Canucks soon and pushing their way into 7th or 8th eventually. Your goalie's playing great, and of course you have a Sudbury boy chucking the knuckles every night out there for you. I had a feeling Stortini would be a big hit out in Edmonton. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 2/7/2008 8:02:37 AM | So true, I think people easily forget how the Oilers went all the way to the finals 2 years ago...and it had everything to do with coaching. They dominated the faceoff circle, blocked passing/shooting lanes like no other team; blocked shots fearlessly like martyrs; worked their asses off from beginning to end; and forechecked and backchecked relentlessly. Not to mention, the "trap" strategy they used to upset the Wings in the first round was 100% designed by the coaching staff.
Hey, if the Oilers want to let go of MacT then power to the Leafs if they get him. He'll definitely help by squeezing the most of the assets they have and probably pushing the GM for trades on the weaker players. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 2/7/2008 8:05:59 AM | """...They dominated the faceoff circle, blocked passing/shooting lanes like no other team; blocked shots fearlessly like martyrs; worked their asses off from beginning to end; and forechecked and backchecked relentlessly..."""
And strangely enough, perhaps it's just a coincidence, but that pretty much describes Mac-T's playing days...to a tee, as in Mac-T. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 2/7/2008 8:20:35 AM | | Exactly what I was thinking and I believe, if memory serves me well, most commentators thought as well. I still remember how effective he was on a penalty kill. Yikes...what a workhorse he was! | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 2/7/2008 5:47:11 PM | How great is it to hear D ick Irvin again. Now if only we could reunite him with Danny Gallivan one last time.
Wendal Clarke looks good. It's hard to believe the rumors about him. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 2/8/2008 6:18:55 AM | true, I think people easily forget how the Oilers went all the way to the finals 2 years ago...and it had everything to do with coaching. They dominated the faceoff circle, blocked passing/shooting lanes like no other team; blocked shots fearlessly like martyrs; worked their asses off from beginning to end; and forechecked and backchecked relentlessly
and how does this have nothing to do with coaching?you forget that they also had an offensive system in place that everyont bought into. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 2/8/2008 5:20:31 PM | So I'm wondering what effect these no-trade clauses have, if any, on team morale, and also, future bargaining power for players when their no-trade contracts are up. Reading the Ottawa sports blogs it seems there's one pile of very irate fans today in the nation's capital.
Seems Murray could have pulled the trigger on a deal involving Marleau of the Sharks, but Redden wasn't/isn't interested in waiving. Over 100 players apparently have no trade clauses.
Hockey Day in Canada tomorrow.
13 and a half hours of hockey for fans (junkies) tomorrow on the tube.
http://www.cbc.ca/television/saturday.html | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 2/9/2008 1:06:30 AM | | the no trade clause is a simple bargaining chip that allows players to derminre there own fate.see you become a more tradable commodity if you have a contract in place.usually players offer the no trade clause when they are going to become free agents.they dont want to take a contract only to be traded anyways.why take the money you would of already got and give up the choice of where your family will live? | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 2/9/2008 8:26:59 AM | """the no trade clause is a simple bargaining chip that allows players to determine there own fate..."""
I realize that.
It's just interesting the way the fickleness of the fans comes out on these clauses. For years, I've been trying to convince a few of my chums that are Sens fans that Redden isn't, nor will he ever be, the second coming of Bobby Orr. He's top notch on a breakout play, and has a decent shot from the point. But that's about it. He's not into the heavy sledding and to me Phillips has always been their stalwart D-man, and since Volchenkov's arrival I'd slot him as the number two d-man. I've always considered Redden to be one of the more over-rated defencemen in the league. He's never performed the way he did either before or after Chara was his partner.
Now that the Sens fans realize he's not waiving, they turn on the guy and say he's a selfish yadda yadda player. But for years all i ever heard was redden would be Norris trophy winner etc. etc. etc. Suddenly now though, he's a selfish peasant even though he's been loyal to the franchise for a number of years.
With Redden, i don't get it either. The whole city has all but written on his forehead in black magic marker that they're not signing him back on this off-season, so in other words, the organization has been basically telling him all season that he's not really wanted. So I can see this guy being run out of town later this summer after the Sens make another early exit from the playoffs. And wait till you hear the boobirds come out the night they do get eliminated.
Me, I'd save myself the aggravation and pack up and head to San Jose. Especially if i know i'm not coming back next year to Ottawa and I'm not really even wanted around here this year. Must make it hard for a player to play with a helluva lot of conviction for his club when he knows damn well he's not wanted. To me, the Sharks have got just as good as chance to make it to the Finals as the Sens do. Seriously. They've played solid all year, just a superb road team, and their goaltender is better than both Gerber and Emery combined.
I mean when you look over the last 4 seasons out west, only the Ducks were the odds on favorites to make it to the Final last year. Nobody picked the Oilers the year before, the Flames before that, and the upset Mighty Ducks the season before that.
So i'm not sure why Redden thinks his Ottawa club is going all the way. They've basically been a 500 hockey club since mid-November. They have nowhere near enough scoring depth and their goaltending is anything but solid with 4 goals against usually the norm the last few weeks. As for him being selfish, I think he's selfish only in the sense that he's getting married in Ottawa this year, and to me, that can honestly be the only reason he doesn't waive.
Same with sideshow Bob (Tucker) over on the blue and white. If a hockey player truly wants to win a Cup, Tucker would waive. But since he's quite comfy living around the Barrie area close to his brother in law etc. he's being selfish if he doesn't waive...so it's not at all about being a good Leaf. That's just a crock of sh1t. It's about scoring a franchise for 3 million a year to go thru the motions while he enjoys life in an area he likes to live in. I mean of all the boneheaded moves Ferguson made, this one had to be his worst.
I'm not big on corporate collusion, but, these no-trade clauses have to go the way of the walla walla bird. If there's over 100 guys with these clauses, then that's about more than 3 per team. Yet every year, only one club wins the Cup. So there's a lot of silly managers out there locking up players for no reason, since about 90 of these no trade clauses are just binding up the organization that signed them.
I say if a guy won't sign without a no-trade clause, then feck him. Send him on his way now. You let the monkeys run the zoo or you run the zoo. It's the managers choice. These players never ever made as much dough as they do these days in pro hockey. But they want it all. The secure home etc. I don't buy into that. If you're making three million a year, you and your little wife can do just fine moving onto another town. Count your frigging blessings that you are making that kind of bread in the first place, otherwise you're likely to become a used car salesmen, or a guy taking the orders at the drivethru window, since most of these guys never bothered getting themselves an edumacation anyay. If you demand a no-trade clause, then you're telling me you're less interested in winning a Cup than you are living on your terms.
So to me these no-trade clauses just show how selfish today's hockey players have become.
Just an opinion. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 2/9/2008 11:02:03 AM | Here here Sly.
I totally agree but lets add Mats Sundin to that list of players who don't want to win. Why hasn't he waived the clause. In all fairness I don't blame the player for naming his destination once he has the clause.
The TO/ Wings game includes this thread?
Prairie how about that action on the Leafs/ Wings game today? | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 2/9/2008 11:59:54 AM | Well I knew Sundin's name would come up on this subject, so I don't know quite what to say, unless he sincerely believes in his heart that this team can still put together a roll of something like 10-3 in Feb and 10-3 in march and sneak in the back door maybe.
That's honestly they way I still see this club. They've played competitively against the eastern clubs with the exception of maybe a dozen third period meltdowns thru the season, which I dissected pretty thoroughly on the Ontario thread.
There's still more than two dozen games to go, and the folks that feel this club will have nothing left in the tank even if they did go on a roll and squeak in, just weren't paying attention to the Oilers run two years ago.
I mean the standings clearly show that apart from Detroit, the rest of the league is pretty competitive amongst itself with some 29 fairly mediocre teams. I don't mean that disparagingly, but even Lafleur said three months ago the Habs are nothing more than a whole bunch of 4th line guys. Here they are suddenly breathing down ottawa's neck for first overall in the east. We've handled the habs and the sabres and the bruins and the Sens pretty well this year.
Our farm hands have recently shown us that all is not lost with the leaf organization. All these fans saying to blow up the club should try having a little more competitive attitude. If Sundin's not quitting and the rest of the club say they're not quitting, then why the hell should the fans say blow this club up? 56 games into the regular season and Thursday night was the first time we had our starting 6 defenceman in the lineup together.
We're not dead yet. i don't care what anyone else thinks. But I do believe the leafs have been their own worst enemy this year. They've cost themselves a lot of points with sloppy play. It's not they're a sh1tty team. It's that they're playing sometimes like a sh1tty team. When they play the habs and the rest of the northeast division they are just as competitive as the rest of the clubs in their division.
Maybe the owners and the NHLPA could work out something based on 'merit'. If a player has ten consecutive seasons service with a club or 750 points with a franchise he automatically gets the no trade clause in his contracts. Kubina, McCabe, Kaberle and Tucker hardly warrant the right to dictate where they go, nor have they earned that privilige based on 'merit'. That's my opinion anyway.
Game time. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 2/9/2008 1:10:15 PM | | The worst thing that could happen to the Leafs is to finish 8th or 9th. | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 2/9/2008 2:08:46 PM | Doesn't matter in the long run. Teams are built thru a combination of all three elements, the draft, trades, and free agent signings.
Look at the stats they're showing on your Wings here in the second period.
Lidstrom drafted 53rd.
Zetterburg drafted in the 7th round, 210th overall
Holmstrom drafted in the 10th round, 257th overall! 257th!
Datsyuk drafted in the 6th round, 171st overall.
Hasek went in the 10th round, 199th overall
Whether a team finishes dead last or in first or in 8th or 9th, they would all have had several shots at acquiring these guys. The draft is a crapshoot. Give me experience almost any day of the week, unless the experienced guys are just living off the fat of the land with their no-trade clauses.
Stamkos and Tavares for sure any club would love to have them. But there's still 19 other roster spots to fill.
Kaberle's skill set to me have sadly eroded here last year. If you slow the tape down on the habs first goal the other night, Kovalev didn't score on the play, but Kaberle left him all alone along the wall and let Kovalev skate unimpeded to the side of the leaf net. As a matter of fact kaberle skated away from Kovalev and towards where two other leafs were standing picking their noses.
Here in the second period, Kaberle took the wrong man and let Lidstrom head right on thru to the net while Kaberle stayed out guarding the point, which he didn't do anyway as the shot went by him. If Antropov had got the sh1t out of his drawers coming back on the backcheck the goal wouldn't have happened.
And a lot of leaf fans seem to think Antropov and Kaberle are good. I'm not one of them. We need more character in the dressing room not necessarily more youth. From what i've seen the last few weeks of our youth down on the farm, we're not in bad shape there. We're also paying a Russian a million and a half this year to play over in russia. Kulemin was Malkin and Ovechkin's linemate on the Russian junior teams. Maybe we'll get him over here next year. I'm really not sure why he's not over here this year.
Blues had 5 first round picks the last two seasons. Now they've retooled their team for sure, but there's still no guarantee these young kids will lead the club to a Cup. You need the experienced guys in the dressing room. Youthful enthusiasm only gets you so far. Ask the Sens about that. They're playoff performance over the last ten years has been one of total underachievement. They were the best club in 02/03 but got knocked out by the more experienced Devils squad.
Tampa had Andreychuk and Sydor. Carolina had Brindamour, Wesley and Weight and a number of others. Devils had Neidermayer, Brodeur and Stevens to name a couple. Last year's Ducks had Niedermayer, Selanne and Pronger. They had a nice balance though with Macdonald and Perry and Getzlaf. Wings last Cup was spearheaded by Shanny, Hull, Yzerman, Hasek, Lidstrom and Chelios. Oilers run was spearheaded by a veteran goalie, Peca, Smyth, Pronger and Smith.
The youth can help get you to the dance. The greybeards win you the hardware though. You still need the greybeards to take you home. Senators continuously year after year after year ignore that cold hard fact about the NHL and the road to the Stanley Cup. That's why they're not going anywhere again this year.
Experience gets you the Cup, not rookies.
EDIT:Big Mats our leader ties it up..deux a deux | |
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| Hockey anyone?
Posted: 2/9/2008 2:31:00 PM | 
Talk to ya in a couple of weeks kaos
Leafs3 barbecued Wings 2
Final
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