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chinua
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Joined: 9/30/2005
Msg: 251 | |
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| UFC and Mix Martial Arts
Posted: 5/17/2006 7:30:06 AM | In fairness to all parties I had a differing view for saiyan upon reading the 1st few pages. However as I kept reading I found his posts entertaining and creative. having said all that I would like to offer my opnion on those styles(or stylists) that make claims that the style is effective yet too deadly to demonstrate.
My opinion is simple: I believe an art needs to be practiced with heavy(yet safe) contact in order to make an effective fighter.
Certainly almost any technique can be viable but if you havent mastered timing, speed, agility, range and set ups those techniques are largely meaningless.
Any combat "sport" alwasy uses contact in order to refine the techniques taught. If other ways were more effective then we wouldnt have live matches or sparring.
It would be much easier on the body of a boxer to continuously work on the heavy bag or speed bag that to spar. But yet they still spar. Why? to sharpen the skills and attempt to prepare for unforseen reactions etc..
Now on to part II how effective is a style that doesnt allow for "moderate" force.
Not every person you might fight will be deserving of a scrotum tear or eye gouge.
Example: You freind gets rowdy at a party, you see he is belligerent and starting to get physical with some strangers. As the situation escelates you realize your good friend is at fualt. At this point do you restrain him or gouge his eyes?
I would hope restrain would be the answer, if not dont let me go partying with you guys! LOL
Another example, You are at a bar. The bouncers are about 50 feet from you. A guy takes a swing...do you rip his throat out or thorw him on to the floor where the bouncers can clean up the mess?
Again many styles have no effective grappling or at the most they have theory but it never has been practiced against a resisting oponent.
In the same 2 scenarios the situation could get ugly if you have no idea how to shift your balance depending on the reaction. So in scene one friend might shrug you off and hit an innocnet partyer and in scene 2 you could try a throw and end up on the bottom.
In conclusion every style has its pros and cons but IMO to really learn how to protect yoursefl you have to work in live situations in order to prepare yourself. | |
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| UFC and Mix Martial Arts
Posted: 5/17/2006 10:55:19 AM | | its my favourite sport i love it. matt hughes and chuck liddle i look up to they are fighting gods | |
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GT99
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Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 254 | |
| UFC and Mix Martial Arts
Posted: 5/17/2006 12:46:55 PM | lakelandsm...
you said what I was trying to get across....
only said it in a better way than I did, after re-reading my first posts I may have come across as an ass...well fine I did lol.
I was in a crappy mood, I can barely walk on my foot, didnt get no sleep because I cut my foot from a stupid accident (seriously, I feel like a knucklehead) so It wouldnt stop bleeding, tried crazy glue (normally it works, seriously) but I still needed a few stitches. | |
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| UFC and Mix Martial Arts
Posted: 5/17/2006 3:25:19 PM | Some interesting debate going on here. I don't want to offend anyone, and if I do, no I DON'T want to fight you! lol
All martial arts can be teach you something IMO, and it certainly doesn't hurt you no matter what you take, but I do tend to agree with GT99 that MMA is where it's at in comparison to most traditional martial arts. A lot of traditional martial arts have hardly any grappling, and we all know how important that is. As has been stated, a lot of them also do not practice full contact, or spar much at all, and to me that's just ridiculous. Too much Kata and stances you'll never use IMO.
With regards to MMA guys being the best fighters in the world, I personally believe they are, without a doubt. Just because they can't eye gouge or do other nasty stuff, it doesn't mean they don't know how or aren't capable of it. I'm sorry but I just don't buy the fact that there are guys out there who would easily whoop the top MMA fighters, just wouldn't happen IMO, fight to the death, or with rules, whatever. If these guys are out there, why haven't some of them got into MMA, and don't tell me that they don't fight for money, cause surely by now there would have been at least one bad seed out there that would have defied his sensei for financial gain. I respect what you are all saying, but I'll put of Fedor Emelianenko against anyone in the world right now. Call me crazy, but I see a fight between Fedor and most traditional martial artists ending very quickly. He would slam their a$$es on the concrete, and easily pummel them. Would not even be close.
Story for you with regards to TMA and their effectiveness. I took Karate for like a year and a half about 3 years ago I'd say. I had no previous martial arts training, but I do watch a LOT of MMA, and know some submissions, etc. So whenever I would spar with my 5th dan black belt sensei it wasn't pretty. He would dominate me easily on our feet. When we went to the ground though it was a different story cause I knew some things, and apparently he knew very little, cause I would tap him out about 7/10 times I'd say. I'm not claiming to be tough or anything, cause I'm not. I'm just saying, how the hell can some guy off the street come in and submit a black belt...easily most times!? Just from watching some MMA!? Take into account that there was little striking on the ground, and we weren't gouging each others eyes, or biting each others throats out, but still...he's a freaking black belt, I'm a nobody. It shouldn't have even been close, but more often then not I submitted him. | |
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chinua
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Joined: 9/30/2005
Msg: 256 | |
| UFC and Mix Martial Arts
Posted: 5/17/2006 3:54:30 PM | | bigdadda...what style was this sensei?? some styles, you can get a blackbelt within a couple of years; also some of them never go against anyone from another dojo; let alone another style..........I'm lucky enough to have a sensei who likes to try out stuff from other styles.......and knows some street stuff too.......and no; he never fought for money; some people tried to talk him into it...he just wasn't interested. | |
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GT99
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Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 257 | |
| UFC and Mix Martial Arts
Posted: 5/17/2006 4:07:45 PM | I am not a big believer in just going for money, Its more to prove yourself, the money is a bonus, I wont turn it down. I find alot of people willing to talk shit but never back it up, how can you sell a product without proving it...this is where I had the issue earlier...and no offence to saiyin...as he is willing to prove it, which I respect.
but so many other people talk like their art is the best and they would do this and that...just get in the cage, prove it THEN talk shit, but most people get humbled, and the ones that are proving it dont need to talk shit.
at the bar I get it all the time, do I fight them to prove a point? no I tell them they are an idiot and to go away, I offer them the chance to stop by and train...they never show up.
no matter what style you follow, just dont be so duped by it unless it has a proven track record, if you want to say you can beat any MMA fighter, then why not try and compete? if you win, you can then talk and say I told you so, but they guys not "willing" to compete are just talking out of their ass.
trust me, you all know them, they talk and dont produce, the ones that do...even if they dont win, I respect that they stepped up at least, and normally they have an open mind and want to learn | |
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| UFC and Mix Martial Arts
Posted: 5/17/2006 4:14:43 PM | | chinua-Shorinryu I think...it was Okinawan for sure, as opposed to Japanese...I think I actually opened his mind a little. When I started there he had just opened his dojo. I asked him what he thought of UFC, and he said something like "it's the worst thing ever to happen to martial arts". Typical response from a lot of traditional martial artists. I made him a few fight tapes though, and we would grapple and spar a lot, and I think I opened his eyes a little. He now does Krav Maga instead(much more practical) and has converted his dojo to that, though he still teaches karate too I think. | |
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GT99
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Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 259 | |
| UFC and Mix Martial Arts
Posted: 5/17/2006 4:43:45 PM | | when I was training with a black belt in judo (they do have some newaza ground skills) he was a bigger guy who did train some guys for the olympic team, I learned some subs in BJJ I never seen done in the UFC (although I am sure they are known still) but I could pull out the sub no problem, but although he knew how to defend the chokes, arm bars etc, the leg subs sometimes people neglect, if you take someones back and set the hooks in, you "should" be able to get the choke, but in a pure grppling match people who are good can stilldefend, and seeing as I cant pound him in the back of the head to open him up, spinning around into an ankle sub works well. | |
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chinua
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Joined: 9/30/2005
Msg: 260 | |
| UFC and Mix Martial Arts
Posted: 5/17/2006 6:22:17 PM | bigdadda.......that style is very close to one I used to do.........Isshin Ryu; its from the ruku islands........south of okinawa...I'm now in shotokan.I'm so lucky to have the sensei i have......he's not as narrow minded as a lot of them are...he is very practical; if he sees something from another style/art that he thinks we can use; we do it in class...we don't do fancy stuff......except for fun....... I'm thinking of taking some jujitsu classes this summer; and he's encouraging me to do it. | |
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GT99
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Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 261 | |
| UFC and Mix Martial Arts
Posted: 5/17/2006 7:07:46 PM | | where are you? out west? there is some VERY good Brazillian JJ instructors out there. If you are interested I can point you on where to go...there are the people who have a proven track record and compete/win then the others who sell their style, yet dont compete...I mean really, if you dont compete...you cant lose, but it gets you nowhere | |
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| UFC and Mix Martial Arts
Posted: 5/17/2006 8:31:36 PM | GT99
""but so many other people talk like their art is the best and they would do this and that...just get in the cage, prove it THEN talk shit, ""
the art/style is only as GREAT as the practioner who uses it
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chinua
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Joined: 9/30/2005
Msg: 263 | |
| UFC and Mix Martial Arts
Posted: 5/17/2006 9:40:47 PM | | don't think they have women's events in your sport....wish they did....but yes; I'm out west, in the fraser valley. | |
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| UFC and Mix Martial Arts
Posted: 5/17/2006 9:55:13 PM | | social dragonfly hit the nail on the head. Its ALL based on the individual. | |
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| UFC and Mix Martial Arts
Posted: 5/17/2006 10:21:34 PM | | Chinua-When you say "I don't think the have womens events in your sport" are you refering to mixed martial arts or brazilian ju jitsu? I know nothing about womens MMA, but I do know they have womens fights. Hook and Shoot is one organization that features womens fights, and some others do too on occasion. It's not very prevelent though, kind of like womens boxing maybe, but definitely not as main stream. Not sure about womans bjj tournaments, but out west at least in the bigger cities, I would imagine they exist. I'm sure some others on hear could tell you about that. | |
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GT99
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Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 266 | |
| UFC and Mix Martial Arts
Posted: 5/18/2006 4:59:35 AM | lots of women train BJJ, its actually great due to the fact you do not "need" strength so a smaller person can submit a much larger person, all technique and leverage etc.
MMA...its not big like mens but there are plenty of women who fight MMA, erin toughill and erica montoya are pretty well known | |
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GT99
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Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 267 | |
| UFC and Mix Martial Arts
Posted: 5/18/2006 5:04:57 AM | I dont know BC that well, how far is Vernon from you?
good MMA club there, top notch facility, top instructors, and hell the owners of the gym are promoters and managers as well. They are good honest people, there are certain people to watch out for in this sport.
saiyin...you mentioned you had a manager? Has he dealt with alot of MMA fighters before? If so I can give you the heads up on a few, some will promise you the world and then when it comes time to pay up...your the one getting screwed. There are a few people in the toronto area I would get you to talk to, you may have met some at the expo, but if a legit "honest" manager is what your looking for, these guys can hook you up so you dont get screwed. | |
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| UFC and Mix Martial Arts
Posted: 5/18/2006 7:51:12 AM | the art/style is only as GREAT as the practioner who uses it
Yes and no.
Certainly a fit, fast, tough and skilled individual can do very well DESPITE the style he is taking but there are certain styles that put focus on live situations in order to better prepare the stylist.
a couple of examples. 2 fighters from the same karate dojo..one just does kata and drills the other takes spars kickboxing style. IMO I would put my money on the one with the live sparring.
WHY?
#1 hasnt tried to hit an evading target, #1 hasent taken a punch/kick, #1 hasnt developed his setups beyond the basics learned in class. #1 hasnt trained his reaction time.
Its like buying a handgun, pointing and aiming at the target but never pulling the trigger.
Certainly this person will be better than one who has never learned to point and aim but I will bet one who has practiced to point, aim AND shoot will be better off MOST of the time.
Again there are exceptions but by and large practicing "live" is better than alwasy practicing against air or stationary targets.
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chinua
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Joined: 9/30/2005
Msg: 269 | |
| UFC and Mix Martial Arts
Posted: 5/18/2006 4:23:38 PM | Vernon is at least 3 hours away........I'm already driving an hour in the other direction for karate....I'll ask my sensei what he thinks of me doing jujitsu tournaments.......
lakelandsm....I agree.........thats why i like doing tournaments..at least when i don't have to fight people wearing head gear with face guards....... some dojos don't even let women spar until they get their third belt. I was sparring in the first class but; I also have experience in other sports; like rollerspeed skating, and rollerhockey where there was lots of contact.......I had to explain that to a woman in my dojo that just because I let her hit me a few times doesn't mean she can beat me ....she'd never done any exercise in her life before karate....... | |
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| UFC and Mix Martial Arts
Posted: 5/24/2006 9:29:34 PM | Im... back, albeit briefly.
GT99... I should be in London later this week or next.. depending... on when my boss gets outta jail. I should be staying there for three months or so.. and i will be in SERIOUS need of a place to train, so... asside from our earlier sparring, Id certainly appreciate any help finding a place in London where I can spar. I have a JJ tourney that I wanna enter in about a month, so its crunch time, and Im presently 6 lb off my fighting weight...so Im ready.\As for,, YOU and I... its ALWAYS been about bragging rights for me, and most definately NOT about fame sport or especially MONEY. I honestly found that suggestion distatseful, but hey... thats just me. Id love to spar/fight whatever with you... partially yeah, to make a point... but also to have the opportunity to scrap anyone who will go me. Out here my reputation will often preceed me, and alot of idiots wont spar with me cuz they think Im still a loose cannon. I say, screw reps...
and if I EVER get a televised fight...
It will probably be my last MMA fight.
Im kinda intendin to save Super Saiyan 4 for that day, and let the publ;ic (if its aired0 see what happens when you take someone who has( as pointed out by lakelandsm)
mastered timing, speed, agility, range and set ups those techniques but who also happens to fight... with voracity and desperation. Like a caged animal gone nuts. A ..berserker. Who knows... I might lose, or get disqualified. Neither are ultimately my concern.
and yo man... I hear you.
one thing I have learned is that you can learn "something" from anyone. You can never stop learning.
Like those old kung fu movies.. where the student learns from a master he eventually surpasses. To me, that should NEVER happen, for an imbalance is occuring: The student is the only one learning, and a true master will NEVER stop learning, especially if he occasionally learns from his students! I was in a jujitsu dojo last year.. and I think I was settin some peeps off; until one of their instructors came in and bowed to me, for hes a homie who knows me ( esp. when it came to street and jail fighting), and he asked me if I was gona instruct there. I laughed and said no.. he asked if its cuz im afraid that Ill finally get beat. What... an ass! If I know a MILLION things... moves, techniques, whatever, and you know but ONER.. what good is my million if I dont know your one, and your one can beat me??? I must embrace that, learn it and make it my own if it can help me in any way. So I totally believe that we can and should TRY to learn something from anyone of ANY age or walk in life. Keeping that mindset makes everyday an adventure and helps make life a lil more livable.
Anyhow...
lakelandsm makes quite a few salient points. Ill tell you straight out... I learned from an akijitsu master that above ALL else...timing is key. Nuff said, although that touches into key areas of my personal fighting ideoligies that are too deep to discuss here today. Ive been hinting at... certain things time and time again, and no ones caught on. Especially about...
hypnotism.
Like I said, nuff said.
I should say that akido (i.e. the TRUE mindset strived for by akidoists) has helped me ALOT in real life situations (like the belligerent friend at the bar scenario which Ive lived thru enough times), and esp. when assh0les wanna fight in a bar. Prior to that .. way of thinking, which I HAD to absorb and assimilate, I was the guy who didnt think or care whether I tossed a guy to the bouncers with his throat intact. It is a rush to see the local "badass" bouncer look at you.. with complete disgust and FEAR in his eyes cuz your drenched in blood and chewing on a piece of someones head. I reacted on pure animal instinct. This is my main worry with competing.. when that.. something inside me takes over, and the incessant need to win quickly permeates my every fibre. It IS NOT the same sparring, and its almost impossible for me to fully slip into the VOID when I know there isnt any pressing need or imminent danger. My real challenge isnt winning, its keeping within the boundaries. Im truly interested in seeing how close I can get to the edge without goin over. And..to put up and finally shut up!! lmao!
Oh.. as for.. CREDIBILITY.. someone supposedly did a search on me recently.. and found it all. All.. the newspaper articles.
Street fighting.. there is no better real life training other than that.
But thats not what we watch MMA for now is it??? lol
So lets move on for a minnit, as I possibly incite yet ANOTHER heated debate...
which MMA forum is the best? UFC? Tuf? K1? Pride? KOTC? TKO? IFL?
anmd who has the best riles??? Seems one of the main divisions.. is the allowance of head strikes with elbows.
Any thoughts? | |
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| UFC and Mix Martial Arts
Posted: 5/24/2006 9:52:24 PM | For the record...
if I HAD to put money down...
Id pick the street fighter over the martial artist. You can train someone how to execute techniques, and you can have someone with determination and heart. Even with all of these COMBINED...
you will never be of the elite. Even possessing balance, speed, strength, timing, training and skills ISNT ENOUGH!! Theres some things that transcend the normal plane, some things that cant be taught; like true fighting talent. Like when you come outta a situation wondering how you did what you did cuz you never ever tried it or practiced it before (like...ummm... doing a back flip over a railing during a bar scrap)... Like... why Master Roshi KNEW Goku was the ultimate warrior watchin him at the World Martial Arts Competiton. The three key elements- flawless skill, unyeilding determination, and the ability to take a beating. Yeah... Im referrin to a stupid cartoon...stupid til you catch the episode Im mentioning, and realize it entails the essence of what being a true warrior is, and what you BETTER have to be one. | |
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| UFC and Mix Martial Arts
Posted: 5/25/2006 4:37:30 AM | Will always be my number 1 sport to watch NFL.
I used to take martial arts for 10 years and I'd always admired boxing more then any other fighting. Boxing is prob the most mentally challanging types of fighting that you can get. I mean, all you have to rely on is your 2 fist and that's it. No take downs, no submission holds, no kicks or anything that can help you get out of a jam, you have to rely on just your two hands to get you out of a jam. | |
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| UFC and Mix Martial Arts
Posted: 5/25/2006 3:45:00 PM | martial artist versus street fighter...most of the time street fighter. Why? most martial artists never had to throw a real punch or kick to save their won tails..never had to execute a takedown while getting smashed etc...the only martial artists I really would bet on are those trained in MMA.
They have the tools needed to fight and understand fear and adrenalin. | |
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GT99
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Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 274 | |
| UFC and Mix Martial Arts
Posted: 5/25/2006 4:11:19 PM | well said saiyin
akido is one art I have looked into but never trained in, I do know that my hand to hand combat instructor in the army used some techniques. Great like you said for a bouncer or a bar situation when taking out unruly drunks. If you know akido I wouldnt mind learning a few things for fun from ya.
this week is kinda been crazy, my place almost burned to the ground tuesday...both units beside me are toast, just minor smoke damage and a kicked in front door, broken glass...but everything else is good...and I got my pitbulls out...thats the number one concern, they are my kids.
if you are in London for 3 months then yeah...I can hook you up with a place to train...lots of good fighters to train with, hominick, stout, macdonald, clements, rondinelli, horodecki and alot of others who all have good stuff to offer, tompkins is the place to be. Plus the fact guys like liddel have come down, Bas rutten, jeff curan from chicago, sometimes you go to train out of town...like at militich in Iowa
email me when you get settled in.
oh and for the record on what the best organization is...I like them all, all my guys started in TKO then some moved to K1 and the UFC (plus a host of others shows like superbrawl in hawaii, and too many to name) but for me...Pride. I like their rules a bit better, less stalling, but there is some stuff the UFC cant do because of the athletic commision.
our guys style of fighting is much like Vanderlei Silva...striking and aggression...sure, we can grapple (silva is a BJJ black belt and IS good on the ground) just "prefer" to keep it standing and go for the KO, but as mark showed in his UFC fight...subs are trained too.
take care | |
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| UFC and Mix Martial Arts
Posted: 5/25/2006 11:01:53 PM | Ok...
Lets tie this together...cuz were all skirting the same issues methinks. Bigdadda was talkin about a black belt that was easy pickings...
which reminds me, as it should us all... belts, especially from the "strip mall" dojo as was referenced to way back by a Mr Paulson, dont necessarily mean shit. So when someone tells you they have a black belt.. yawn! lol Naw, seriously though... as was said by social butterfly..its all about the individual. When I was 17 I ran into some guy on the street.. I was a brown in Karate at the time, and smoked this guy on the ground. He tried to sucker me with a thrust kick to the groin. Funny thing.. I had learned in training school (and NOT the dojo) that a person will almost ALWAYS sucker you... with their fav method of attack. EVERYONE REMEMBER THIS!!!! This guy tried to... KICK me, so instinct told me to take him to the ground, where my high school wrasslin (and all those early years of incarceration) ruled the day, Turns out buddy was a third degree blackbelt in some sort of kickboxing and had even had fights on TSN. Turns out he was weak on the ground.
So I guess it really is the size of the fight in the dog...
and why dojo trainiong kinda gets superceeded by street experience. HOWEVER, be careful not to underestimate ANYONE,, whether they are a part of some formalized fighting style or not. Someone who has been thru the "belt ringer" with a serious sensei (like some who will tell you when you ask how long it takes to get a black belt and they tell you "if that is your main objective... find another dojo. It will take as long as it takes") is a person who we cant take lightly still, for they will have (in most cases) have had to have so many hours of instruction (like 60 hours for each belt, give or take), and will have had to show mastery of many techniques, which usually is executed in various TMA tournaments ( judo and karate are prime examples). Many also theorize that cetain dojos... allocate belts according to how much money youve spent with them, and, for alot of your time and cash, will give you a black belt. How would some of these peopkle fare on the street against dudes I know... who simply are crazy dudes that do crazy shit. Guys who will take on a crowd strung out on 40 hits of acid (hes dead now...RIP Hilchie!), or dudes who can kick a 340lb biker in the head and break his leg (who now works for some Mom dude in Montreal). Trainin with dudes like Hominick would be sweet, esp. if Im gonna do MMA... but dudes like my boy Brett will "train" you, just by takin you out, gettin you messed up til your heads spinnin, and then get you into a nasty bar brawl at nights end. You wanna see how fast a rear naked choke is erased on the street? See... UFC...pride..whatever DOESNT alow a bite, bag tweak, or an eye gouge! lol
Speakin of which... I do tend to lean towards Pride FC as probably the most entertaining MMA forum. Earlier in this thread those that were here discussed this a bit. We also rightfully concluded that the UFC, which was created by BJJ practicioners (as Royce said..."this is my house...I built it") and whose rules clearly favor grapplers. Pride also seems to attract a wider array of combatants, especially from our Japanese brethren, and has shown up some UFC fighters (like, sorry to say.. Liddel). Personally...Im feelin TKO for obvious reasons, one nbeing the fact that they are in Montreal. Funny thing.. U.S. customs and Immigration have more concerns about a tiny piece of hash that I got busted for years ago (it was found stuck to my sock after I got arrested for punting some dude thru a bar window) than they are about an attempt murder beef. Seems like violence is ok but hashish isnt! lol), and now, at least for now... I cant go to the US to do squat. My...manager almost got me a shot at UF5 which is being casted for right now, and I missed a recent KOTC opportunity in Vegas about three weeks ago cuz of my border issues.
Anyhow..GT99..Ill let you know when im there. and we can talk then.
Im sure youll find some akido techniques interesting... but its its PHILOSOPHIES that will benefit you most. Like Bruce said... absorb whats useful!!
And maybe you can tell me where I can find a pool.. Ive been workin on my anerobic threshold again...
take care one and all...
hopefully UFC 60 will give us more to talk about next week....
any predictions??? | |
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