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| Are you against the War?
Posted: 12/13/2005 6:20:07 AM | It is on the previous page...and Mr. Goodhands was a bit over the top with that comment. While I don't know any troops who are currently overseas, common sense tells me that the vast majority are pretty intelligent people.
Also, Xmilitary, I see you have still failed to address the argument about blind patriotism that has been raised by myself and other posters. | |
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| Are you against the War?
Posted: 12/13/2005 7:20:23 AM | @ xmilitary
I love Texas, and all, and would really like to join you, but not a very realistic option. Sorry. Try me again, in 11+ years, when I can leave all the kids alone, for a few days. 
Peace  | |
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| Are you against the War?
Posted: 12/13/2005 8:08:43 AM | I now a LOT of veterans who oppose the war in Iraq (which isn't exactly bringing freedom to any Iraqi's) and who think Bush and his cronies are totally incompetent.
I don't have to visit your military hospital, I can visit my cousin any time I like in his...or visit the graves of my cousins and uncles who died in Vietnam.
Somebody said something a few pages back about money lost by the americans in WWII, but how much money did the Bush family make during that war? | |
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| Are you against the War?
Posted: 12/13/2005 8:24:21 AM | Somebody said something a few pages back about money lost by the americans in WWII
Oh, that old ruse? The Marshall Plan?
Hmmmm..... actually, look through the books on that one, it paid off well
Besides:
An essential part of any successful action on the part of the United States is an understanding on the part of the people of America of the character of the problem and the remedies to be applied. Political passion and prejudice should have no part.
Source: Congressional Record, 30 June 1947.
VFW = Veterns of Foreign Wars nothing to do with hospitals.
Yup, that would be the VA
The Canadian version of VFW would be found in the THE ROYAL CANADIAN LEGION / La Légion Royale Canadienne | |
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| Are you against the War?
Posted: 12/13/2005 9:07:20 AM | Sorry, wasn't thinking. Doesn't matter, I'd think veterans wouldn't want another generation to experience the things they did. Makes perfect sense.
Wow, I can see why the term 'ugly american' came into play.
Have a nice day guys. | |
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| Are you against the War?
Posted: 12/13/2005 9:30:27 AM | | Well I am a veteran. I believe that is individual choice. I am glad their are still soldiers wanting to serve their country | |
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| Are you against the War?
Posted: 12/13/2005 9:36:57 AM |
Sorry, wasn't thinking. Doesn't matter, I'd think veterans wouldn't want another generation to experience the things they did. Makes perfect sense.
Without exception, the vets that I've met have always deemed it tragic that their fight wasn't the last one. This is particularly true of the WWII vets I know. | |
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| Are you against the War?
Posted: 12/13/2005 10:24:53 AM | XMILITARY,
I am not sure why you will not respond to the comments about blind patriotism...but again I am asking that you look at some of the posts previously written by others, and myself, and address the problem. | |
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| Are you against the War?
Posted: 12/13/2005 10:47:33 AM | | I do not see patriotism as blind it is a choice. So it is a moot point. | |
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| Are you against the War?
Posted: 12/13/2005 10:53:50 AM | You obviously still have not re-read your posts and the responses...
The type of patriotism that you have advocated for would force a person to follow any leader who was making decisions about war, and to support whatever decisions were made. If we take your approach and apply it to people living in Germany in WW2 they would be expected to follow Hitler.
If you do not question leadership and its decision you can be left with disasterous consequences...that is the point that you fail to address... | |
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| Are you against the War?
Posted: 12/13/2005 11:06:37 AM | Yes, Hitler had good order and discipline. He just was fighting for world domination. Not Freedom.
So his soldiers were patriotic to his cause. Even though it was wrong
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| Are you against the War?
Posted: 12/13/2005 11:08:39 AM |
Even though it was wrong
Making it a "patriotic" cause for those Germans who opposed him. | |
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| Are you against the War?
Posted: 12/13/2005 11:08:54 AM | I am not sure how much more clearly this can be put to you.
Are you saying that had you lived in Germany, during world war 2, you would have supported Hitler, his war, and his practices (including the nazi death camps) merely because he would have been your leader. | |
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| Are you against the War?
Posted: 12/13/2005 11:12:46 AM |
Are you saying that had you lived in Germany, during world war 2, you would have supported Hitler, his war, and his practices (including the nazi death camps) merely because he would have been your leader.
..and called everybody who opposed his policies, regardless of nationality: Anti-German? | |
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| Are you against the War?
Posted: 12/13/2005 11:18:10 AM | If I was a German Nazi. I belive, I was doing it for the good of my country. I would have no choice because I would be killed for refusing.
I am able to volunteer my services in america big difference.
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| Are you against the War?
Posted: 12/13/2005 11:18:19 AM | I am 100% behind this war!
If Bush had not gone into Iraq....then Saddam would have killed more of his people.
I believe the WMD are in Syria or Iran. The only mistake Bush made was giving Saddam enough time to move them. It does not matter if he only had one WMD.........or hundreds..if bush had not attacked.Saddam would have gained more and would have used them.
I believe the only reason he did not use any on our soldiers was the idea that the U.S would not be able to fing him! He probably thought that he would hide and come back to fight another day.Just like the first time we were there. I was there in Iraq 1.....we should have killed his ass then.....Clinton should have bombed bahgdad when Saddam was not following the U.N resolutions.
If we had gotten Saddam the first time.....we would not be there now!
All of us in here are playing "ARMCHAIR QUATERBACK" and can say what we want...we can read from our favorite sources and talk about how we FEEL about this war, But untill we have been told the whole truth about Iraq......None of us has an idea as to what is really happening! | |
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| Are you against the War?
Posted: 12/13/2005 11:27:42 AM |
None of us has an idea as to what is really happening!
Now apply this one sentence to your thread...
Good...
Now let X-militaryman answer the question posed to him. | |
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| Are you against the War?
Posted: 12/13/2005 11:38:12 AM | I have already answered 10 times. I have fought for my country. I am not a Nazi or communist. The Germans did not go blind into war they were loyal and patrotic to their contry. If I was one I would be loyal to my country. That is the only way military works
Just because one does it for evil and the other for good does not change the basic function of good order and discpline.
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| Are you against the War?
Posted: 12/13/2005 11:47:56 AM | dmotz39 has common sense.
what is up with the saddam supporters who post here | |
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| Are you against the War?
Posted: 12/13/2005 12:06:18 PM | Xmilitaryman...
1. Nobody has accused you of being a Nazi or a Communist.
2. I was typing my previous post in response to another poster, and did not realize you had answered the question. My appologies.
I do want to comment on this quote from you though
Just because one does it for evil and the other for good does not change the basic function of good order and discpline.
That quote could be the basis for a novel; I will try to keep my comments somewhat shorter then that. Firstly, it is interesting that you would type cast a leader's motives for war as good and evil. What is good and what is evil, how do you define these terms, how do we decide who was good and evil in past conflicts.
The point I am trying to make is that good and evil are concepts that rely on perspective. What you Xmilitaryman, or I consider good, may be considered evil by another. For example, some people may argue that killing one innocent person to save the lives of innocent persons is good, and others would argue that killing any innocent person is evil. I assume that you think America is on the side of good, and I would agree, but that is subjective.
Secondly, I would suggest that good order and discipline is based in large part on sound leadership and acceptable orders. If you were ordered to torture, run cruel scientific test, starve, and execute Iraqi civilians on mass would you follow those orders? Are those orders not evil, or those orders not contrary to sound leadership? Would you murder mothers and children if you C.O. told you too? Would you follow any order without question? | |
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| Are you against the War?
Posted: 12/13/2005 12:11:59 PM | I do believe your Brain is deep in the vat!
Common sense tells us that we do not know everything about the war. Yet some people think they know everything! Use your head for something other than a hat rack!
What I post are MY thoughts.....I do not claim they are the truth. I can sit here and cut and paste all damn day.....it does not mean it is true!
If someone thinks they know everything.and bashes another opinion......what does that make then sound like?
Your opinion may be right....so could mine and many others.
I served for 12 years...I and exmilitary understand more than most but we do not know everything. We just have a different perspective based on experience. | |
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| Are you against the War?
Posted: 12/13/2005 12:18:16 PM | Military orders must be lawful orders meaning they can not break the UCMJ Code of Conduct. That would be unlawful order.
Secondly, I would suggest that good order and discipline is based in large part on sound leadership and acceptable orders. If you were ordered to torture, run cruel scientific test, starve, and execute Iraqi civilians on mass would you follow those orders? Are those orders not evil, or those orders not contrary to sound leadership? Would you murder mothers and children if you C.O. told you too? Would you follow any order without question? | |
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| Are you against the War?
Posted: 12/13/2005 12:18:25 PM | "If you were ordered to torture, run cruel scientific test, starve, and execute Iraqi civilians on mass would you follow those orders? Are those orders not evil, or those orders not contrary to sound leadership? Would you murder mothers and children if you C.O. told you too? Would you follow any order without question?"
Brain....a quick search and this is what I found...I think it's common knowledge that they do not have to follow illegal commands or orders..
"Field Manual 27-10, set forth the duty underlying the command responsibility principle. Dereliction includes not only wilfully failing to do one's duties. Soldiers have an obligation to refuse to follow illegal orders; all orders to commit war crimes are illegal"
"Under Article 77 of the UCMJ, a person is guilty of an offense that they “assist, encourage, advise, instigate, counsel, command, or procure another to commit” as if they had committed the offense him or herself. Culpability even extends to those who take no action in the face of a crime if they had a duty to act to stop or report the crime, such as military police." | |
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