| Polyamory
Posted: 5/4/2006 10:15:07 AM | Just a comment on a probably dead thread.
Having read the whole thing, I am struck by the undercurrent that assumes people are property (my man, my woman, I can't share, etc.).
Humans are unequivocally not possessions. Here in the states, we fought a bloody, fratricidal war around the issue, but that is a digression.
Also, I am saddened to see how strongly the cruel Judeo-Christian ethos binds our society even unto the 21st century. A simple answer to the guys who said, " This is not Christian, Don't go there", is "Thank God I'm an atheist" (how's that for a terminally "mixed metaphor"?). A more complex answer is to suggest a trip to the "Liberated Christians" site. They seem to disagree with you.
We all remain in prisons of our making, and nobody but ourselves holds the key. The job of life is humane escape and exploration to become the best we can become. Unfortunately, most of us don't have the guts to consider unlocking the cell door and letting the breeze in, let alone stepping across the threshold.
I am surprised how little generosity I am seeing here directed to the people we say we love. Noone seems to consider that their partner might have significant positive feelings for a person other than themselves that cause emotional pain in the partner when denied. More accurately, most of us seem to be aware of and acknowledge the reality of the above and seek to deny the partner that happiness for our own reasons.
Think about it. It is not a pretty point of view, nor an honorable one. Because of our own insecurities, we are unwilling to let someone we say we love have something that would doubtless make them more happy. Seen less generously, we seem to be willing to condem our partners to needless suffering so we can feel comfy and not need to be challenged and risk growth.
Freedom from choice, indeed.
"All of the tears you're crying are for yourself, they're not for me..." | |
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| Polyamory
Posted: 5/4/2006 10:38:25 AM | | I myself am a bisexual male. I've been trying to find a female who is open minded with my polyamory hopes for years now. I would someday like to get married, but I'm noticing that a lot of women seem turned off by the idea. | |
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| Polyamory
Posted: 5/8/2006 11:18:50 PM | Yeah...if you love each other you don't want to share...Sometimes it can get boring though, and I am envious when I see friends or married family who seem to still be able to have sex - though mostly its a guess unless you hear them!
This seems like a santized version of "swinging". Seems like it could be complicated. | |
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| Polyamory
Posted: 5/9/2006 7:28:59 AM | Polygamy Sect Leader on FBI Wanted List
http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pri&dt=060507&cat=frontpage&st=frontpageap20060507_346&src=abc | |
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| Polyamory
Posted: 5/9/2006 2:53:05 PM | I think that guy is on the most wanted list for bigamy, conspiracy, mail fraud and weapons charges.
Not the same thing as polyamory, to my knowledge.
I could be wrong...
Why the energy Delytful? Nobody can draft you into a polyamorous relationship against your will. | |
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| Polyamory - long
Posted: 5/10/2006 4:33:16 AM | Actually, the charges against that guy are arranging polygamy (husbands with multiple wives) and various charges involving statutory rape - arranging marriages between adult males and underage women, rape, incest, etc., etc.
And you're right - that is *not* what polyamory is. Polyamory refers to an above board (that is, not hidden from any partner) relationship involving more than two people. It can manifest in a V (one person with two others who have no interaction with each other, but who may themselves have outside relationships ((this is sometimes referred to a "W" or "M" )), again all knowing the situation), a triangle/triad (a closed relationship involving all three ((or more)) partners who don't interact outside the relationship but interact with each other), or extended "families."
There are also poly relationships with distinctly disparate power structures, where there is clearly one person in total control of the others, be it a male or female "in charge." But that's an entirely different thread.
Taking the concept of marriage out of it, there are in fact many human social precedents for polyamorous relationships, be they hierarchical or egalitarian. It's definitely *not* for everyone, however, and does indeed force one to re-examine the romantic notions of "my one and only for ever" concept. On the other hand, poly relationships - especially closed ones (e.g., triads) take a heck of a lot of work. There are the issues of jealousy, time managment, authority (especially important if children are involved in the household), fear (especially if one person in the relationship does not reside in the same household as the others), etc., etc.
On the other hand, with the divorce rate near 50%, one has to wonder if the paradigm of monogamy forces artificial restrictions on men and women. It begs the question of whether or not one person can always fulfill all the needs of another.
Just some ramblings on half a cup of morning coffee...
D. | |
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| Polyamory - long
Posted: 5/10/2006 7:37:00 AM | "And you're right - that is *not* what polyamory is."
But it gives a good idea of what it can lead to. I realize that not all of what he did was in that article, but it stemmed from his belief in this concept. Like forcing the teenage boys out of town with nothing, just so that they wouldn't be there to "compete" for the little girls. | |
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| Polyamory - long
Posted: 5/10/2006 8:08:21 AM |
"But it gives a good idea of what it can lead to. I realize that not all of what he did was in that article, but it stemmed from his belief in this concept. Like forcing the teenage boys out of town with nothing, just so that they wouldn't be there to "compete" for the little girls. " - Delytful
I'm not trying to be argumentative, Delytful, but your logic is dangerously close to "...you shouldn't drink milk because all criminals drank milk as children."
This guy is a criminal. Period. What he did was wrong on so many levels it's not funny. But what he did doesn't make all polyamorists wrong, evil, or manipulative. The ones I know - and my poly relationships - have all been with mutual consent (of all parties involved), with varying degrees of success.
Not all sadomasochists are serial killers, not all marriages end in divorce, and not all polyamorists are criminals. If we can step aside from Judeo-Christian moralilty and simply look at personal ethics, there's nothing inherently *wrong* with consensual polyamory.
As I stated earlier, it's not for everyone. But there's enough historical precedent for non-monogamous relationships among humans, whether it's concubines, polyandry (multiple husbands), harems, consorts, or the open marriages of the late 60's-70's to imply strongly that it's at least not abnormal.
Surely everyone is free to choose whether or not they want a poly relationship. But it's unfair to imply that because one criminal exists in the world of polyamory that poly will likely lead to criminality for everyone.
As long as everyone consents and no one is harmed, sua cuique voluptas.
:)
D.
"Everything you do is evil for somebody."
- Joseph Campbell | |
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| Polyamory - long
Posted: 5/10/2006 12:46:02 PM | Delytful,
It seems like you are not making a distinction between polyamory and polygamy as practiced by fundamentalist Mormons.
The things you are talking about with kicking male kids out, statutory rape, incest ARE associated with that stripe of polygamy. I don't even know how widespread these abuses are amongst polygamists, but my perception is that they are frequent enough to cast suspicion on the Mormon flavor of polygamy.
Personally, I think any institution/practice exploitive of individual human beings is not acceptable. Likewise, coercion of human beings (male or female) is not acceptable.
From this perspective, you are right, Mormon-style polygamy would seem to fail the "smell test". However, these sort of undesirable things can figure into any number of human institutions (including monogamous marriage).
Still, as a man, I can't rationalize why the penis-equipped in particular need a harem of adoring babes. My perception is that regardless of the religious rationales offered, the motives for polygamy as it exists in Utah are base and disingenuous, having more to do with a pathological desire for power than genuine affection for others. But that is just how it looks to me.
My limited read of the polyamory literature suggests that the pressures driving polyamory are quite different. They include the reality that we live so much longer than we did even two generations ago so that deficiencies in relationships are more likely to manifest now than then and are more likely to cause serious difficulties for participants.
We also know more about the universe than we ever have before. We now know that most (actually, all) religious teaching is deeply flawed and could not have had a divine origin. We also know that our closest primate relatives are moderately "polyamorous"...Suggests that might be closer to our natural state than monogamy.
Thus the situation on the ground is different than anytime in human history. We can choose to hope that existing institutions can accomodate the changes in medical technology, human knowledge, demographics, etc. that are bearing down on the early 21st century. So far as I can see, there is little to support that view and alot to suggest it may not be realistic.
Polyamory represents one possible response to some of these trends that may or may not become prevalent. If it does, it will because it serves the people involved. However, there is no Big Kabluna out there to dictate the rules to us: we gotta figure them out for ourselves.
Part of that will be considering other models than those the ancient sages handed down to us. Chances are good those guys didn't know any more than us.
David, thanks for getting the facts straight. | |
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Kalira
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Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 160 | |
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| Polyamory
Posted: 4/20/2007 6:48:33 PM | "I have a friend who's wife kept trying to talk him into a 3some....mind you I always got the impression that she liked me more than a friend. Anyway...he decides to go ahead with it..and he told me this "You have no idea what it is like to hear your wife scream/moan louder for someone else than they ever did for you." She later divorced him...took half and is now an out and proud lesbian."
Good for her, Take those men for every cent they can possibly get and run! god knows she needs it in a world where woman are just so helpless these days....
I'm gonna go vomit now | |
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| Polyamory
Posted: 5/20/2007 11:06:12 PM | Ms Ali wrote:
Is control love? I believe control enters into jealousy and many more factors. So control would mean destruction. Can this be love? If a person wants some one to be happy should they not ease up on the control thing and be free from ALL forms of control?
Not if you chose to give up control to another that you trust. Then control is NOT destructive, it’s your choice. Just something else to think about!
Congrats on breaking out of the box others would put you in! | |
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| Polyamory
Posted: 5/20/2007 11:27:48 PM | | just to add, the whole idea is not for me...... but the show "big love" is GREAT and I love seeing the interactions between all of them. I know IRL it doesn't work like that, but that's why it's really good. | |
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| Polyamory
Posted: 5/20/2007 11:45:31 PM | | Ive always said that my perfect living situation would be to live with two bi-women who both love me, but love each other also. They get the best of both worlds and I dont have to worry about being there for one person all the time or having that one person solely depending on me for everything. | |
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| Polyamory
Posted: 5/21/2007 12:20:38 AM | @OP
hey if its your thing.. go for it! But it aint mine :) | |
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| Polyamory
Posted: 5/21/2007 1:05:09 AM | I couldn't even read this whole thread. Yes I am constantly being told that there is something fundamentally wrong with my marriage because it's an open one. That if we truly loved each other we'd be enough for each other and on and on.
What people don't seem to understand is that if it's love and it's true, beyond a shadow of a doubt love. It is beyond jealousy. My husband and I are secure enough in ourselves and our love to know we are it for each other. My husband pointed out to me once that I had fallen in love with one guy and after pausing for a split second I realized he was right. So what? I fell in love and had sex with another man but I'm still with my husband. Why? because I realize that no matter who you're with, that first initial attraction, the "honeymoon" period wears off no matter who you're with. People seem to jump from one relationship to the other wanting the perpetual honeymoon period and never finding it. What my husband and I have is deeper than that and so we let each other go off and find that inital attraction to other people knowing full well that we'll both be back home and in bed with each other at the end of the day.
If i have respect for people who are into monogamy then it just makes sense to me that others have respect for the fact thats not what I want out of life :) | |
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| Polyamory
Posted: 5/21/2007 2:39:29 AM | | I have enough trouble finding 1 person to love, let alone 2 lol. | |
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| Polyamory
Posted: 5/21/2007 10:36:20 AM | | I think people talk about abnormal behaviour on the forums, because there's more to discuss than about normal behaviour. There's not much to say about someone married with kids who gets along great with their spouse and has no issues in their relationship. | |
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| Polyamory
Posted: 5/21/2007 1:28:57 PM |
I am not referring to threesomes. Just the act of loving a person but allowing each other to love other people as well. That's not polyamory. That's an open relationship.
Polyamory (from poly=multiple + amor=love) is the desire, practice, or acceptance of having more than one loving, intimate relationship at a time with the full knowledge and consent of everyone involved. Polyamorous perspectives differ from monogamous perspectives, in that they respect a partner's wish to have second or further meaningful relationships and to accommodate these alongside their existing relationships (source: wikipedia)
I love everyone. But I want sex with one person at a time. And I want the same from them too. Saves on STIs, and confused pregnancies. And jealousy. | |
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| Polyamory
Posted: 5/21/2007 2:14:27 PM | | thanks for the laugh snilta. On the other hand I could claim that these forums are full of closed minded "norma" people like you but I don't stereotype so I don't say that. Does that mean that it would be really bad in your opinion if a gay man married TWO goats? | |
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| Polyamory
Posted: 5/21/2007 4:09:31 PM | You know what... It seems to me that Polyamory is a posh word for "having your cake and eat it", one partner gets on your nerves? Go to the other... One wont play the way you want to play, go to the other...
I do tend to think that Polyamorous couples consist of one person wanting to have more than one partner and the original partner going along with it because they dont want to lose the one they love.
And why is it, 9 times out of 10, it is some fat old bloke who has all these little "wifelets"?? | |
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| Polyamory
Posted: 5/21/2007 4:33:14 PM | | I think that the only place that it is really safe to have a threesome is in your fantasies! I don't see how a relationship could survive with more than two people. Even if you're just doing it for fun... you think... somebody is going to get more serious or like one person better than the other. Somebody will get thier feelings hurt eventually. JMO! | |
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| Polyamory
Posted: 5/21/2007 4:36:58 PM |
1. Be a fag
2. Marry a goat
3. Be polyamory
Just don't be normal.
Apart from the foul term you used for a Gay man, your post was quite funny...
What about if a man fell in love with 2 gay goats and insisted on marrying them both... would he fit in here rather well do you think?? 
Polyamory IS NOT about 3somes lol, it is about loving and having a relationship with more than one person with all parties agreeing... I still dont think it is all even though | |
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| Polyamory
Posted: 5/21/2007 4:58:52 PM | Hi, This is Helen the wife in mine and craig's marriage. I don't typically write about stuff like this, or in these type forums bc I feel that my wants are mine and mine only and if I meet someone who would be interested in it would be the only person who I would care what they thought. My husband and I have been married for 3 years this July, we have never been so comfortable with eachother, I've been with a girl in front of him, we've both done things we're not proud of, but in that we realize we got on with it, and to be quite honest, I was a lesbian before I met my husband. He understands my want to be with another girl, and in that, I am fine with polyamory. We're still newcomers to this whole polyamory thing, and have yet to find anyone who wants to be in a relationship, only those who want one night stands and thats just not what we're into. But anywho, I think if someone wants to be polyamorous, I don't think it's a bad thing. It only depends on both of the people in the relationship to say "I'm okay with expanding our relationship".  | |
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| Polyamory
Posted: 5/21/2007 4:59:32 PM | | Hi, This is Helen the wife in mine and craig's marriage. I don't typically write about stuff like this, or in these type forums bc I feel that my wants are mine and mine only and if I meet someone who would be interested in it would be the only person who I would care what they thought. My husband and I have been married for 3 years this July, we have never been so comfortable with eachother, I've been with a girl in front of him, we've both done things we're not proud of, but in that we realize we got on with it, and to be quite honest, I was a lesbian before I met my husband. He understands my want to be with another girl, and in that, I am fine with polyamory. We're still newcomers to this whole polyamory thing, and have yet to find anyone who wants to be in a relationship, only those who want one night stands and thats just not what we're into. But anywho, I think if someone wants to be polyamorous, I don't think it's a bad thing. It only depends on both of the people in the relationship to say "I'm okay with expanding our relationship". | |
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