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| Celtic and Native American
Posted: 11/30/2007 9:07:52 PM | occamrazor.. when I had my near death experiences I just didn't stop Being. I went places and talked to some old men with white beards that told me I had to come back :)
I wasn't too happy about that btw... :)
I don't believe for the sake of faith... I'm spiritual because of my experiences... and they don't have anything to do with religion. | |
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| Celtic and Native American
Posted: 11/30/2007 9:41:50 PM | Nergal - he started Wicca - the celtic ways go back thousands of years - I know - I have been following them since the age of 6 - and I am ordained in them. As many of my ancestors that were female.
I have also been studying archeology especially the bronze aged finds since about 8 years old - I was intending on actually becoming an archeologist, but unfortunately the programs were not available to me at the time.
So to answer the initial posting - yes - I do - and its funny how when you go into the religious forums - you get trounced on by born again christians stating you are a satanist and going to hell - even though we don't believe in either. | |
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| Celtic and Native American
Posted: 12/1/2007 3:17:16 PM | Speaking as a person of Nordic belief, Celtic belief is a very interesting thing.
As the Celtic language insicates, the culture was originally noe of the Indo-European tribes that migrated eastward (as opposed to westward), but eventually reveresed there course during a much later warming trend... moving into Europe via GReek and Italy, leaving the culture that would evolve into thsoe tribes in their wake and eventaully settling Central Europe... neighbours to the Nordic/Teutonic folk who still called the lands of southern Scandinavia their home.
Whatever difference the centuries of separation bred between Celt and Teuton, they were apparently fast in reacquainting themselves, and the similarities in culture eventually became quite pronounced... as perhaps best outlined in Hilda R.E. Davidson's comparative study "Myths and Symbols in Pagan Europe". The earliest Roman memory of these two tribes (harkening back to the 2nd or 3rd century BCE) tell of a joint enterprise between the Teutons (Teutonic) and the Cimbri (Celtic) attempting to smash through the borders of Rome.
It was the Celts that mastered iron before any others, and it was from them that we speakers of English (and other Germanic languages) get the term *iron*. As a result of their mastery of iron they were the lords of early Europe, and even the Romans were beholdent to them... until they themselves mastered iron and adopted martial utilitarianism over the cultivation of the traditional I-E cultural aesthetic of the single combatant.
Naturally, all nature based beliefs will share things in common as they are *autochthonous* and evolve naturally out of their respective peoples/cultures experience of time and nature. There simply are certain things that common to the human experience, the cycles of life, the dynamics of human society, the dynamics of human psychology, etc. This can even be seen in the urban Roman Empire and the great number of urban salvation cult that began to spring up after a certain pont in the evolution of city and empire, all born in reaction to a newly emerging historical experience. | |
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| Celtic and Native American
Posted: 12/1/2007 5:29:15 PM | I follow Celtic (Irish) ways mostly with a huge dose of buddhism, hinduism and mystical thought. But I am Irish Celtic, French celtic (gaulish) and Germanic (teutonic and celt) with Cherokee. I have had the honour of attending the Sundance (Plains Indian..Peigan and Blackfoot).. and have gone on a dreamwalk to discover my animal guardians.
Wicca is a amalgamation of Celtic practices and Hermetic practices also. I do not follow Wicca (or Wicce, if you are female)
Since the Celts had no writing except the (Ogham) runes there is a lot we don't know about their practices, they were mainly an oral peoples. The best we can glean are from old stories, poems and legends, and some archaeology. It is known that the druids were part of their religious practices, (and also their civil structure) but it is also suspect that there were female priestesses as well. The Celts were highly individualistic peoples...never really united.. more like tribes, and clans. I would think that kin-ties were very important. They were close to the land... and since the last vestiges of the old ways are in Ireland, it being the last to succumb to christianity..I think a lot of Irish legend and myth is a good source. The Celts had many gods and goddesses...but there was one "Father god" -The Dagda (the Good God). The early settlers of Ireland called themselves the Tuatha De Danann..the "People of the Goddess Danu"
The Celts held in high respect; honour, courage, generosity and loyalty...another virtue that was sacred was, hospitality. In these I think they were much like the Vikings, or Northern peoples, and the Aboriginals. If I need to "personalize" my practices I will usually envision Brigid (Bride)... or Cerunnos and Ceridwen (as Lord and Lady). But if I need something else... an essence, I will envision and animal or a plant that has the qualities I am trying to emulate or draw upon.
I think it is fairly easy to bring together the two different beliefs, both are very close to the land, and belief in fairies and "natural" spirits goes well with the Aboriginal beliefs.. There is a respect for the humaness in people in both, and yet a calling to be more than one is.
They are both very involved systems and I couldn't even begin to do either of them justice here. | |
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| Celtic and Native American
Posted: 12/1/2007 8:58:36 PM | I think of all of us who have posted here, yours comes the closest to answering the original post.
Its hard to put a label on those of us who acknowledge the symbology in the taking on the name of certain god/goddesses. I do call myself wicca. I have said prayers in a sweatlodge while a sundancer sang. It was high magic.
As for lineage. I am celtic, germanic and pict. Yes, the pict in me is documented. My native american friends who kept thinking I had native blood must have been seeing her in my eyes.
Peace,
WS | |
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Nergal
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Joined: 4/29/2007
Msg: 30 | |
| Celtic and Native American
Posted: 12/2/2007 6:03:03 AM | I love the Celtic legends, the Táin Bó Cúailnge is one of my favourite tales, and those of Fionn mac Cumhaill and the Fianna as well as the Mabigonion. I've spent long years drawing and carving celtic knotwork and animal patterns, and looking at the Book of Kells, its beautiful stuff. I count the celtic gods as long held friends, I was first introduced to them over 30 years ago. I also read Native American folk tales as a kid, and thoroughly enjoyed them. As far as the Celts go, they invented chainmail, and as one of the posters pinted out were the first to master Iron. What people forget is that the celts consisted of hundereds of tribes and spread across most of Europe as well as into Britain and Ireland. The Welsh and the Irish were probably the two closest geographically that have documented tales,. Even these two have different names for what appears to be similar gods, but there are also huge differences. Its the same tale tale across Europe, individual tribes worshipped their own gods, some of which they overlaid with the generic images being traded around. We know very little about the manner of worship, even the Roman writers make only a couple of references to druids. Modern druidism was invented during the Victorian era, as it was a common fad at the time. On that basis I dispute anyone saying they practice the 'Ancient Celtic Tradition', its glossing over vast regional differences and we simply dont know what those traditions were. By all means use them within a modern Wiccan tradition, or a modern Druidic. Theres enough details written about various gods and goddesses to make them a valid god-form to focus upon. But please dont claim to be following an ancient tradition we know nothing about. Its an insult to the Celts and their gods.
Of all the Native American tribes the Hopi are held by the rest to be the one tribe that has held to its beliefs. Its also held that the Hopi are one tribe that wont explain their beliefs to outsiders. As far as I know thats documented fact. so how, logically can anyone, other than a Native American Hopi practice a truly ancient Native American belief system. And again its a case of each tribe following their own ways. If what you are doing is using a generalised Native American folklore as your belief system then admit it. Stand up and be counted as a modern shaman working on your own spiritual path. It doesnt invalidate anyones belief system because its modern. Too many writers, and especially people offering courses feel that they have to lay claim to an ancient heritage to validate their claims. I'm following my own very peculiar path, I've worked with some very knowledgeable druids, Enochian wizards, Daoists and Wiccans. If I need to employ a particular god for something I use the imagery thats needed for the job. But I would never claim to be doing so in the way that the original priests of the time did, I dont see the need. We dont really know how they worshipped, nobody has a genuine celtic priest handbook to refer to, therefore its impossible to truly compare the two traditions. All we can do is say that a lot of New Age traditions are developing along similar lines and as such the modern Native American belief systems and the Celtic ones do have a lot in common. | |
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| Celtic and Native American
Posted: 12/2/2007 6:15:06 AM | Nicely put, Ravenstar.
There are a number of sites that actually list the similarities between the Celtic and Native American beliefs and practices.
And for that matter, even the 'christianity' of Ireland is still interlaced with the old practices. (the ' around Christianity, is just to catch all of which ever group, in case anyone was wondering). Ok just did a quick, real quick search.. found this page.. I'm not saying it's completely right on the money, or that I agree. But, it has a fairly good grasp in my opinion.
http://www.paganspath.com/magik/similar.htm | |
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| Celtic and Native American
Posted: 12/2/2007 7:08:03 AM | ^^Thanks for the link.
I'd like to add that it's been a belief of mine for a few years that Buddhaism is also very close to Native Spirituality in many many aspects.
But that's not the topic here....
I must admit that I only have a beginners understanding of the Celtic precepts of spirituality, but I particularly like the symbolism of a sacred tree, which is very similiar to many Native precepts of tribal trees. As I understand it, the tribal tree was supposed, in theory, to stand at the centre of the tribal territory and embodied its security and integrity. For raiding tribes, the ultimate in victory was to cut down the sacred tree as a dramatic gesture designed to demoralise and shame the defeated tribe.
This act is very similiar to Native people's acts of war; another sure fire way would be to make derogatory remarks about your tree. In effect, one was not only making fun of another's tribe, but also their ancestors, a serious no no. Certain tribes eventually took the idea of a sacred tree and fashioned faces of their ancestors as well as animals and developed totem poles.
I'm wondering if the Celts made a type of totem pole as well? lol, need to find some books....
Cheers, Raven | |
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| Celtic and Native American
Posted: 12/2/2007 9:53:02 AM | There are several references to trees. I have a deck of divination cards called the "Tree Oracle". I don't use it so much for a divination tool anymore, but its gives a good explanation of the trees in western europe and the British Isles and their value in spiritual developement.
Also, don't forget about the Maypole! There is a whole ceremony (all fertility based) concerning gleaning the tree and digging the hole and placing it "in the hole" ( ) and the symbology of the ribbons being wrapped around the pole.
As for "counting coop"...I have one story. My ancestors let it leak out that they would be in a certain valley and wanted to fight with (I think it was Clan Campbell...but I could be wrong). Said clan gathered all their fighters and went off to make war. While they were waiting in said valley for the dastardly Murray's, my clan showed up at their castle and uprooted some favored trees and took them home and planted them there. They are still standing today, is my understanding.
Oh, if you read "The White Goddess" by Graves, you will find a great explanation for the tree alphabet. | |
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Nergal
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Joined: 4/29/2007
Msg: 34 | |
| Celtic and Native American
Posted: 12/2/2007 9:54:30 AM | I dont know where the sacred tree idea comes from. There is a book called White Goddess which lists a Tree Alphabet among other things. But a lot of the book is wildly inaccurate and generally agreed to be made up. Certain trees are associated with particular deities, but the oak has always been the one of most significance. I know of 3 oak groves near Glastonbury which are still used today by people. I did check the site out and it said the same asI have been trying to get across, Celtic Shamanism is a modern invention, no better than any other. Interesting point about totem poles. Woodhenge is a few miles from Stonehenge, a huge wooden structure in its day. I think only the post holes survive and some odd pieces. I dont think they were carved but its been speculated that they were painted.
Sorry Woodstar I think we posted at the same time. As I said Graves has been largely discredited, he pinched most of his ideas and made the rest up. The Tree Alphabet is interesting but never really existed in that form. He got confused with Ogham which is sometimes called tree writing. I'd completely forgotten about the maypole, its been banned by most places over here, its too dangerous, not too mention a fertility symbol. | |
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| Celtic and Native American
Posted: 12/2/2007 10:11:48 AM | Tregana,
Love the site. Thanks! So many "pagan" sites are just total hogwash, obviously written by those who haven't done their homework...it's nice to come upon a site that is well put together.
I've had the honour of meeting and speaking with one Family Traditional witch (welsh)...very cryptic types (lol) but I was fascinated. I have also had the honour of being friends with a Medicine Man (Blackfoot) and his wife. Although the approaches are a bit different the basic ideas are very similar. Immanence of the divine.. expression of this through nature... balance of male/female..etc... bringing spiritual practices into everyday life.. the "world" as a sacred space.. oral traditions... shamanic travels,... the mythology is different but describes a lot of the same ideas. RESPECT... also the honouring of ancestors, living in balance with nature.
I think it is interesting that human spirituality has gone through a cycle, or spiral... first very visceral, connected to the earth, it's creatures and cycles...then emotional with the early "gods" being a reflection of human's emotional desires and needs...then the purely spiritual..negating the others, from the ascetics..to focus on the soul alone..then more cerebral, philosophy, psychology and mental constructs and now coming full circle to include all, leading us back to include the physical and nature and honour it as well as the other aspects. I envision this lovely upward spiral...ever expanding to encompass all aspects of humanity, religious thought, nature and divine essences. All coming together in the holistic spectrums of light. I really should paint this vision!
I don't think it is necessary nor required to try to follow what our ancestors did exactly...that would be going backwards... but discovering (as best we can) what they knew and applying it to what we know now..that is the essence of the spiral. Taking the knowledge we have and combining it where it fits with what we discover about our ancestors... to me that is spiritual evolution at it's best. It honours those who have gone before us and adds what we have learned as a species to the process.
Many blessings.. isn't it exciting to be a part of all this? | |
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| Celtic and Native American
Posted: 12/2/2007 10:49:43 AM |
I dont know where the sacred tree idea comes from.
lol, had to dig around as I knew I read this somewhere...
except from Celtic Mythology, by Proinsias MacCana, Hamlyn Publishers, 2nd edition, 1973
"Cult associations of inanimate nature: The religious concept which underlies the professedly antiquarian lore of the dinnshenchas is expressed more explicitly in the cult of deities who represent or are in some way specially related to particular physical features of the land. The fruitful earth itself was revered as the divine mother, who is present more or less overtly, in all the Celtic goddesses. There were gods of the cultivated field (Ialonus), of the rock (Alisanos), of the confluence (Condatis), of the fortified place (Dunatis), and others connected with particular mountains and mountain peaks. The fertilising waters of rivers were normally deified, for example the Seine(dea Sequana), Marne (Matrona), Saone (Soucanna), and the many rivers whose names (from the stem dev-) meaning simply "Divine". Sources too had their divinities as in Aventia (Avenches), Vesunna (Perigeux) and Divona (Cahors, Bordeaux).
Equally widespread and in certain circumstances, even more tenacious was the cult of sacred trees. The Druids' association with the oak has not been proven beyond reasonable doubt, but the tree cult in general is well attested by Gaulish dedications and nomenclature. It is in Irish tradition, however, that it is expressed most clearly and consistently, and there is here even a special term for the special tree, bile, which is no doubt the same word as occurs in the Gaulish Biliomagus, "The Plain of the Sacred Tree". (?) A number of these great trees are mentioned repeatedly in the literature - The Tree of Tortu (an ash), the Oak of Mughna, the Yew of Ross, the Bough of Dathi (an ash), the Ash of Uisnech, etc. - but evidently each tribe, or confederation of tribes, had its own sacred tree which stood on the site where the kings of the tribe were duly inaugurated. No doubt, like the universal World Tree, or axis mundi, the tribal tree stood roughly at the centre of the tribal territory as it was both talisman and embodied crann betradh, "tree of life". "
Cheers, Raven | |
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Nergal
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Joined: 4/29/2007
Msg: 37 | |
| Celtic and Native American
Posted: 12/2/2007 11:30:07 AM | Thanks Raven .. not one I'd come across though some of the names are familiar. I found this while browsing ..
It will be observed that the basic idea here is that Ireland consists of four quarters and a centre -- the provinces of Connacht, Ulster, Leinster, Munster, and Meath. This arrangement was confirmed by Trefuilngid, and in leaving that ordinance with the men of Ireland he gave Fintan some berries from his branch. Fintan planted them where he thought they would grow, and from them are the five trees: the Ash of Tortu, the Bole of Ross (a comely yew), the Oak of Mugna, the Bough of Dathi (an ash), and the Ash of populous Uisnech. Though the location of most of these five places is uncertain, there can be no doubt that the underlying idea is that the trees symbolize the four quarters around the centre.
That just applies to Ireland, and its one particular tale. There is more information suggesting that the trees did indeed stand as stated but a long time ago. The danger is basing Celtic tradition purely on the Irish legends. As I said, and others, the Celts were a widespread race. They appear to have had common themes to their faiths but a lot of differences in detail. I'm quite happy to go along with naming goddesses after rivers or water sources, thats quite common, certainly Shinto shrines of that nature do exist. It might well be that the various Celtic tales are not really about gods, just local spirits of particular areas. That would agree with a shamanistic origin for the belief system. But I dont go along with the Earth Mother connection. Too many people have tried to build it into new age faith. It was designed as a feminist reaction to the male orientated aspect of the organized church. Most of the early religions were designed around a family of Gods. Look at the heart of Egyptian, Greek, Mesopotemian and Roman, all built around families with both male and female leaders. Thats balanced, which is what Christinaity and a lot of modern pagan sects lack. Ones overtly male, the other female. If we are talking about new age faiths talking together and bringing people closer then surely thats the first step, bringing male and female together under one faith. not dividing them. | |
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| Celtic and Native American
Posted: 12/2/2007 1:38:05 PM | While claims of practicing a belief system as it was some 1000+ years ago are rather absurd, I wouldn't place that in the same category as some might.
Afterall, Celtic culture and lanaguage and worldview are living things that have endured the centuries. And if you learn the "pattern of culture" through what sources remain, you can reweave the lost elements in a manner that might not be identical to any past incarnation, but which are nevertheless authentic to the spirit of the folk/culture in question.
In this, those who seek to revive the ancient beliefs of some culture or another, Celtic for example, would be wise to harken to the Native Indians that are treading the same path and who know well the importance of language.
Lanaguage gives us great insight into how a people viewed the world, what they knew of, how they knew it, and is all-in-all far more a crucial element in the equation of rediscovery than myths and fables can ever be.
If nothing else, the end product ends up being something that is authentically "us"... which is perhaps the defining element of any ethno-cultural belief system, and certainly a primary element of the anceint tribal belief systems.
Celtic and Germanic belief systems, with the great variety of pecularities that never the less arise out of a common trove of various root ideas is a perfect example... as is the greater folk tree of the Indo-Europeans. So what is inauthentic of modern folk coming up with peculiarities in belief of our own? So long as the spirit of the culture, it's centre is being respected one should actually expect variation, ie. an obessive adherence to some particular past layer of belief would in fact be inauthentic. | |
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| Celtic and Native American
Posted: 12/2/2007 2:14:31 PM |
If we are talking about new age faiths talking together and bringing people closer then surely thats the first step, bringing male and female together under one faith. not dividing them.
Indeed!
In Teutonic belief there is a god called Mannus, from which the modern English term *Man* stems from. In the elder tongues this was primarily a reference to genus, as opposed to gender, with the latter being indicated by such prefixes as wera (male) and wifa (female).
This god was hailed along the more obscure Tuisto (most likely Tiw/TyR) as being the progenitor of Teutonic culture, and he is said to have had three sons that were the patron deities of the three main divisions of the greater Teutonic folk around the time of Tacitus.
One of these sons was named Ing, who ruled over those tribes that dwelt by the seashore... known collectively as the Ingaevones. He is remembered in the Viking Age Eddas as Yngvi-FreyR, where he is also known to have had a twin-sister, Freyja.... suspiciously fitting given the hermaphroditic nature of the term Man.
The name Mannus is cognate to the Indo-Iranian *Manu*, who is said to have given the *Laws of Manu* which govern social interaction/etiquette between the various ranks of the social hierarchy.
This fact suggests that Mannus may ahve been the predecessor of the later Viking Age deity Heimdall (Home's Brightness). In the Eddas he is associated with the seashore, and while he is ranked amongst that classification of deities called the Ese/AEsir, he is not only said to have attributes that are explicitly associated with the other class of deities known as the Vanir, he also plays a strong paternal role in relation to the goddess Freyja.
Heimdall is the main figure in a myth involving the Teutonic hierarchy and in the myth he mingles his blood with each of the ranks and unites them all in tribal kinship.
He is also the deity that stewards over the rainbow bridge, which is the metaphoric link between Heaven and Earth, God and Man.
So, in Mannus-Heimdal we find a deity that not only unites man and woman, but also the various elements of society, and then society and the divine. One might be so bold as to say that Christ was a manifestation of this same spirit... attempting to quantify and integrate a newly evolving layer of human society.
Anyway, I believe Heimdal also has a link to the spirits of nature, ie. the etins/jotuns/"giants", but that one escapes me at the moment.
Whether or not the term Mannus and Manu spring from the same root as the Celtic Manannan (or vice versa as the case might be), Heimdal is often compared to the "Offspring of the Sea". | |
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| Celtic and Native American
Posted: 12/2/2007 4:35:45 PM | So, Nergal is better read than I am. Thats okay...I can take it.
But the business about Maypoles being banned in the British Isles just made my fairy heart go "eeeekkk!"
As others have said here far more eloquently than I ever could, the beauty of this path is that it does spiral.
May we be forever teachable...(thats always been one of my most favorite prayers). | |
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| Celtic and Native American
Posted: 12/2/2007 4:38:07 PM | Hey, we have a Ravenstar, a Woodstar, and a Raveninn. Now all we need is a Woodinn!
Sorry couldn't resist.
I must still be trying to recover from the shock of no maypoles in Britan. | |
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