| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/19/2005 10:34:36 PM | SFL I did not take you as being disrespectful... And you are right about governments taking way closer look at such *fringe* groups and it is high time IMO. But then again the department that takes care of these kinds of things (in Ontario anyway) is overwhelmed and overloaded with applications from folks filing for the right to perform marriage rights and charity status for tax purposes once they have an ordination from their said group/ tradition...
The kinds of things the government demands are that the church applying for these rights and charity status outline in minute detail what the beliefs and practices of the religious group are. They also want to know how the church is going to educate its ministers, healers and mediums (in the case of spiritualism) so the public can be assured of a decent standard of quality of service from these people. With that in mind they want to look at detailed education programs outlined. Then they want to know what mechanism the church has in place to monitor the people they ordain/certify in various offices of the church and what the protocols will be for establishing who is in good standing and reputable and who is not. To do the church must outline exactly what the criteria of good standing and proper practices are and a means for eliminating those who do not adhere to these criteria. As I am part of the education committee who has been part of this process for my church I can tell you the process has taken us years for us to complete and we still have much work to do.
As I said, the government is really cracking down because there are so many other fly-by-night groups out there in the community and online who offer no measure of standards and protection regarding the services they claim to provide. Not saying that the ULC is a problem out right but by doing what they are doing online re the ordinations they and other more questionable groups make it much harder for those seeking certification, ordination and charity status that is recognized by the government to acquire it.
With the advent of computers anyone anywhere anytime can print themselves up a legal looking certificate to say anything they want. Look at the people that have been discovered practicing medicine, preforming surgery with forged documents.
There is always danger out there, this is just another part of it.
Yep, true and very scary! But the question I asked myself long ago was do I want to be a part of that or do I want something better? Now the ULC is likely not intending damage but the problem is that at some point I think the these ordinations are gonna bite them and their decent members in the butts and that does impact all of us who are working to ensure that alternative religions be granted the same respect and recognition as the mainline faiths. Having committed 10 years of my life to educate myself in Spiritualism and also in that time try to give something back to the next generation in the way of improved standards and service to our members. I would hate to see all that effort flushed down the toilet.
Cat | |
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| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/20/2005 12:39:22 AM | Cat, a couple of points.
First as was previously stated, it is highly unlikely that ordination in any church would significantly help a cult start up.
The people who start these things are starting new religious organizations, not joining existing ones. They can call themselves whatever the hell they want to their worshippers. If they call themselves priests then the worshippers will call them priests. If they call themselves Rabbi, then the worshippers will call them Rabbi. And it doesn't matter what piece of paper or legal status they have, that is not what is important to their followers.
Secondly the ULC has been one of the major lobbying groups for equal rights of all religions. They have been responsible for some of the most significant progress made toward gaining legal acceptance of non-mainstream faiths. One of their two basic tennents is that you remain tolerant and accepting of all religions and faiths. The other one is that you do not harm anyone or break the law. I think these are very good rules to live by. They have worked hard on their end to secure religious rights not just for their members, but for other non-mainstream religions as well.
Lastly, they have been around for over 50 years. Its pretty unlikely that if this was going to bite them in the butt or be flushed down the toilet it would not have happened by now.
I do understand your points, but I think you have a few misconceptions as well. Just trying to clear them up as much as I can. | |
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BPMG
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Joined: 8/26/2005
Msg: 28 | |
| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/20/2005 7:16:10 AM | There are some very good arguments here. It seems to me that it all boils down to taking responsibility. As Spiritual_Cat says
Personal Responsibility is a main tenant of my beliefs and I take it very, very seriously. This is one of the main things I remember from Church. It was taught along with everything else. It is necessary to follow this belief of personal responsibility because we are also given free will.
In my belief it is too easy for some to ignore personal responsibility and to just take the easy way out of everything. Have you ever been cut-off on the highway by a car that has the icthuse symbol on the bumper? Sometimes it is because they did not see you and other times it is because they just don’t care. I often wonder why they put that on the car and then drive in a way that would embarrass anyone who is religious and takes responsibility for their own actions. This is one of the few things that still offend me.
Chuck | |
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| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/20/2005 9:17:48 AM | Infornography--- Yep you have cleared some things up but the point is there are many groups that look and feel like the ULC online and how is one to know really? Anyone can say anything online right? My posts have been based on my experiences with the Canadian government re these issues and THEY are suspicious of online ordinations no matter who the group says it is... Like I said there are many differences between the US and Canada and problems with and the number of Christian and other cults masquerading as legitimate religious organizations is just one of them... Now if the ULC wants to be of real service to alternative religions then they have a responsibility to their members and the public to monitor who they are handing ordinations to... if not then what is the point of membership and ordination with this group? If they do not have any standards as to who they certify and a way of making sure these folks do live by the two said principles of the ULC they are no better than the cults that abound...
Cat | |
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| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/20/2005 9:35:42 AM | SO WHO WANTS ME TO MARRY THEM NOW!
I've already married two cats at my aunts house. We had a ceremony and everything. I'm not sure how long its going to last because Napoleon keeps running across the street to the neighbors house to visit their cat.
What if they need a divorce? How will Napoleon pay alimony? Will he need to contribute kibbles and 9 lives on a monthly basis? Will Sheba need evidence of his extra-marital behavior?
Yah, its a can of worms alright. | |
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BPMG
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Joined: 8/26/2005
Msg: 31 | |
| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/20/2005 11:36:42 AM | Hey Majestic_Lizard_Returns do you offer a money back guarantee? I might consider it if you do. If you do what is you policy on returns, also can I trade up before the warrantee runs out. Is the warrantee transferable.
These are just some things I need to consider, you know, “Buyer Beware”.
Chuck | |
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| They don't gotta burn tha books they just remove 'em
Posted: 10/20/2005 10:21:30 PM | Weapons not food, not homes, not shoes
Not need, just feed the war cannibal animal
I walk tha corner to tha rubble that used to be a library
Line up to tha mind cemetery now
What we don't know keeps tha contracts alive an movin'
They don't gotta burn tha books they just remove 'em
--Rage | |
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| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/21/2005 2:13:55 AM |
If they do not have any standards as to who they certify and a way of making sure these folks do live by the two said principles of the ULC they are no better than the cults that abound...
I am going to assume here that the difference you are implying between a cult and a religion is whether they do significant harm or not.
I disagree here. Comparing a group with an irresponsible behavior to one that actively damages as being equals is not exactly fair.
Also the ULC does not demand destructive behavior from its ordained.
As for the service it provides given it does not doublecheck... Well mostly it helps very small or isolated religions. Religions that cannot afford lawyers or lobbyists to secure their rights to perform marriages and the like. Granted they can only perform them in one or two provinces of Canada or in the US for the most part, but it is a far cry better than relying on finding a priest of a more established religion to perform the ceremony and either hoping he/she is open minded or lying to him/her.
I personally do not think there are very many cults in the world and most of what people call cults are just religions with relatively small followings.
Like I said, I understand where you are coming from and you make some good points. I think that we only differ on opinion rather than fact. It is my opinion that these free ordinations are pretty much harmless and unless you actually build up a religious practice (be it a church or just services) it is actually quite difficult to get the associated tax break, as it should be.
It is your opinion that the risk outweighs the benefit and as a result such things should not be allowed. I can respect that. | |
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