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Posted: 1/24/2008 6:02:11 PM | post 386:
<div class="quote"> You're overlooking something of crucial importance: emotion trumps logic, every time.
Oh yes, there is an "emotion" that prevents an SO in a post-Eros stage of a relationship to accept an erotic affair of the other SO. I would call this emotion (syndrome) "ownership".
In those cases, IMO, termination of the relationship (incl. marriage) probably makes more sense. So that any affair is not an "extra-marrital" affair anymore.
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Posted: 1/24/2008 7:04:59 PM | Message 385...Hi nick...
I respectfully understand your point of view, but IMHO, there are many relationships that are strictly erotic relationships (paid for / FWB) that never include love, this may include the ONS...
I in no way could ever compare the love I have for my children, family, friends to that of a SO. Even if a LTR ends, I doubt many people would put their now 'ex SO' into the same category / friendship as ; children, family, friends etc.
Ok, possibly 'friends' but with a certain difference...Once that 'bell' has been rung (sexual intimancy, maybe eros or not, depending on many factors), there is a difference... LLL | |
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Posted: 1/24/2008 7:13:06 PM | Thank you everyone for the nice compliments...I really appreciate it.
Dave, I think I have to give up too.
You just can't fathom that if someone loves their SO...they not only shouldn't do it in the first place...they should actually understand why it hurts their partner...REGARDLESS of the motivation for it. An SO telling me it didn't mean anything DOES NOT change how I feel. The feelings remain...I don't feel bad because of those questions..I feel bad, and then start asking the questions.
As has been said before...for the most part...women feel, then think, men think , then feel. You can not logically (thank you Arlo) talk me out of those feelings. They are too deep, and too painful.
Whether I forgive you or not has nothing to do with the reasons you did it. It has to do with my belief that I can live with it, and it can be healed. And if you dismiss my feelings about it? Not a chance in hell that I'm going to be receptive.... | |
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Posted: 1/24/2008 7:53:03 PM | I can't resist Zangie...
"...women feel, then think, men think, then feel."
I just have to add..., men think OFTEN WITH THEIR LITTLE HEAD FIRST, not the one on top of their shoulders...
OK, some women do the same !!!
LLL
And I feel sorry for you Z | |
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Posted: 1/24/2008 8:03:59 PM | Personally, whether my SO had sex because he was horny, or because she was hot, or because he was weak, or because he really liked her...doesn't matter..he still treated me like I was insignificant. And insulted me to boot. And hurt me more than anyone else in my life possibly could..because I trusted no one else more. And I counted on no one else more to always take into consideration my feelings..to be on my side..above any other woman..and certainly above some non emotional getting your rocks off sex.
Oh, this is one of those tough posts. I'm sure my finger is going to hover over Post and Cancel for a while, but here goes.
I was a mess - a total MESS - for about a year after my SO died. I didn't sleep in our bed (good thing I have a comfy couch). I barely went into our room. Finally - only because I decided to sell the house and HAD to go through his closet and drawers and belongings and do a clean-out - did I make a surprising (shocking) discovery. He was a sailor, and when emptying out one of his "away" bags, I found a package of condoms. We NEVER used them (I was on the pill for the first half of our 25 years together, and during the second half, while we weren't "trying" to get pregnant, we decided if it happened, it happened and we'd figure things out from there). So, what's with the condoms? Was he cheating while he was away? Was he just being prepared "in case," to protect both of us from disease? I still have no idea.
I've only told one person about this before now (great, now I'm telling thousands) - a friend who pointed out that he was on a ship in close quarters, and maybe he used them while masturbating, for obvious reasons. Whatever. Almost five years have passed now, and I can look back with a bit of detachment and logic.
1) I never looked to see how old they were. Could have been 25 years past expiry, for all I know. They were in a "shaving kit" buried deep in his pile of crap (he was a packrat).
2) If they were old, it possibly means he was "cheating" during our early years. Maybe. Maybe not. I'll never know.
3) I DON"T CARE. He loved me. If I'd have given up on him because of that in Year One, I wouldn't have had Year Two through 25, years during which I KNOW he'd have DIED for me, if it came to that.
Just a different opinion. Take it for what it's worth. | |
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Posted: 1/25/2008 3:40:20 AM | This is Daves’ original question
What is it about affairs that hurt people?
The misunderstanding is in the attempt to quantify the feelings between different sets of relatives/friends and ones SO. This does not answer the question.
The love may have gone for one partner, but clearly from this thread not from both.
And this is the last post way, way, way back in 2005 before this thread was resurrected
why do you bother asking a question if you dont really want to hear the answer? You have been given the answer repeatedly and dont want to hear it. While I am in agreement that this makes you an expert in being disingenuous, it does NOT mean anyone who gives an answer you dont like is being disigenuous. You calling ANYONE disingenuous is the pot calling the kettle black. Soliciting opinions and accepting only those which support your own predetermined and closed minded opinion is pretty much the definition of disingenuous.
What a wise man…and now I really am outa here!!! | |
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Posted: 1/25/2008 4:29:32 AM | Oh yes, there is an "emotion" that prevents an SO in a post-Eros stage of a relationship to accept an erotic affair of the other SO. I would call this emotion (syndrome) "ownership".
I'm a little (okay, a lot) confused here: you seem to be implying that love (which you seem to call "Eros") is some sort of mental pathology. I agree that love can, and very often does, cloud one's judgement; I disagree most strongly with the implication that it's some sort of mental illness.
In those cases, IMO, termination of the relationship (incl. marriage) probably makes more sense. So that any affair is not an "extra-marrital" affair anymore.
Yeah, well, we all know the old saying, "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride." IF people conducted their affairs according to logic and common sense, there'd be no divorces, no disagreements between the sexes, none of that. But, they don't (and personally, I'm GLAD for my feelings).
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Posted: 1/25/2008 6:21:36 AM | Post 395
"I'm a little (okay, a lot) confused here: you seem to be implying that love (which you seem to call "Eros") is some sort of mental pathology. I agree that love can, and very often does, cloud one's judgement; I disagree most strongly with the implication that it's some sort of mental illness."
One has to consider my syllogism in my last 2-3 posts as a whole else mis-interpretations like these are possible.
What I wrote was: "Oh yes, there is an "emotion" that prevents an SO in a post-Eros stage of a relationship to accept an erotic affair of the other SO. I would call this emotion (syndrome) "ownership"."
Before that I "proposed" that Eros/In Love is an emotion that has NOTHING to do with Love and that Love from human to human (relatives, friends, etc) is of a Platonic nature. And that an Eros/Love In based relationship, when Eros leaves, if the rel continues then it is of a DIFFERENT, non Erotic, Platonic nature. Thus the SOs in that case have no reason to consider erotic affairs of their SO as "betrayal", much like a best friend does not consider his/her best friend's erotic affair with someone else a "betrayal" (of their friendship).
So, yes, "ownership" is a "syndrome" but has nothing to do with Love. Since a couple stays together in a now non Erotic rel, the "affair" does not constitute betrayal because the "bond" between the couple is now non Erotic.
Bottom line and I am out of here:
In a relationship which is still based on Eros/In Love, I agree, that an affair is "betrayal". But in a relationship that used to be based on those, but Eros is now gone and the couple stays together ONLY because of (Platonic) Love, in such a couple, an erotic affair does not thus constitute betrayal. If it does, it is an "ownership" emotion that makes the SO feel that, not Love. Simple!
I wish all a happy remainder of the discussion.
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Posted: 1/25/2008 8:08:00 AM | I think Dave is looking for someone to justify him having a affair on his wife or s/o. I don't think you are going to find any takers here Having an affair while married or committed to someone else is just morally wrong. Most people were brought up to believe that. If you don't want the exclusive relationship , you should not marry or have a girlfriend. You should just be a player. You just want a players rules in a marriage or committed relationship. And no woman in her right mind would agree to that. | |
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Posted: 1/25/2008 8:24:09 AM | Single for a reason people arguing over couples actions, if you have never cheated :
emotionally using someone else to tell your troubles too other than your SO when they were right there (man / woman) then throw the first stone
:)
Cheating, physical , emotional and mental I have seen from many people of both genders and most have no idea they are ... | |
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Posted: 1/25/2008 8:59:32 AM |
(Msg 383) Sex isn't the most important part in a relationship but it is supposed to be the most intimate bond between two people who are monogomous.
That is where I find the absurdity. If monogamy is so important then sex has to be important. Monogamy is concerned with sex and only sex. If monogamy, which has to do with sex, can make or break a relationship then I’d say it’s clear how important sex is to a relationship.
Could it be the general view of sex has resulted in more affairs? When people’s “must have” lists include everything but sex and they make it a point to specify the unimportance of sex, “I want to make sure we’re compatible in other, more important areas/things first.” “Sex will naturally occur anyway.” “It’s not sex that holds a relationship together.” “Sex is a very small part of a relationship”, maybe that attitude carries over?
We can’t keep telling ourselves and others that sex is at the bottom of the list when it comes to successful relationships and then say monogamy is at the top. If we keep treating sex as something that is unimportant people are going to believe that, whether consciously or subconsciously.
Perhaps an example. Let’s say a family usually celebrates Christmas dinner with extended family members. The parents, the children, aunts and uncles, Grandma and Grandpa……then Grandma and Grandpa die. Then an aunt or uncle gets divorced. Then one year one of the kids are away at college. After awhile the importance of Christmas dinner has diminished. The parents still bake a turkey but some family members drop by Christmas eve, some on Christmas day and others the day after and share a turkey sandwich and dessert.
Isn’t there a similarity between that and sex in the sense the importance of sex slowly diminishes in many relationships? When couples first meet their priority is to be together. Then activities and other interests slowly erode their together time. Then one isn’t in the mood or they’re tired. They have energy to go for dinner and a movie Saturday evening but just aren’t up to sex Saturday night.
They feel they have a successful relationship. They do things together. Conversation is no problem and sex isn’t what holds the relationship together. The reality is sex is just not all that important and then one of them has an affair. BANG!
That thing that was never considered important, that thing that “if it happened, it happened; if not, no big deal” is now the biggest deal in their life. Maybe if we started to recognize just how important and vital sex is, kept it at the forefront of relationships, people wouldn’t drift into affairs. I wonder if that has anything to do with it?
(Msg 384) As far as Dave is concerned, nothing anyone would/could say, would change his way of thinking, nor will he ever see or feel what any of us who disagree with his thought process try to express.
As I mentioned above it’s difficult to understand the logic when something is referred to as not being important but is considered to be the very core of the relationship.
(Msg 391) Whether I forgive you or not has nothing to do with the reasons you did it.
I really don’t understand that. Let’s look at two scenarios. In the first one your partner says, “I went to the bar after the convention ended and this drop-dead gorgeous gal came in and sat down on the stool right beside me. She told me she was recently divorced and lonely and I figured I’d never get another chance to make love to such a beautiful person so I went for it. It didn’t mean anything.”
Scenario two. Your partner says, “Six or seven of us were invited back to one of the guest’s rooms for drinks after the convention. I was talking to the person, whose room it was, about our new products. As time passed people slowly left until I realized we were the only two in the room. I was going to leave and she suggested we should order something to eat before calling it a night, otherwise, we’d wake up hung over. They delivered the food to the room and we were tired after we ate and one thing led to another. We both realized we made a mistake the next morning.”
Are you saying both those explanations would stir the same feelings?
(Msg 393) I DON"T CARE. He loved me. If I'd have given up on him because of that in Year One, I wouldn't have had Year Two through 25, years during which I KNOW he'd have DIED for me, if it came to that.
I love to see logic! Hopefully people will understand and take your experience to heart.
Tilly Too writes in msg 394 quoting another poster,
why do you bother asking a question if you dont really want to hear the answer? You have been given the answer repeatedly and dont want to hear it.
No, most posters haven’t given the answer, one exception being the poster who said it was a spiritual matter. I keep hearing it’s a matter of a broken trust but I replied to that way back in msg 103,
When “B” trusts “A” it means “A” is either trusted to do something or not do something. If “A” breaks that trust then “B” suffers, not simply because “A” broke the trust but because of the consequences that followed from breaking the trust. The person that had to stand in the rain (Post 32) suffered not because of a broken trust but because of what resulted from the broken trust. The key word is “from”, or “ as a result of” or “due to”.
People extract or request promises from others for a reason. If someone asked you to promise not to do something and when you asked why they said, “Oh, no particular reason” wouldn’t you think they were nuts?
When posters have offered a reason I asked if that particular reason was removed would an affair be acceptable and the answer was invariably, “No” meaning that their reason wasn’t the reason. If the reason they gave was truly the reason and the reason was addressed that means they would no longer have a reason.
(Msg 397) I think Dave is looking for someone to justify him having a affair on his wife or s/o.
Not at all. Most are aware of the following but I’ll repeat it for you. When my partner and I met she asked what I was looking for in a relationship. What did I expect/want? What was important to me? I answered, “Sex!” We both laughed and she said she couldn’t see that being a problem. It wasn’t at the time because we had recently met and, of course, the sex was great. My point was sex would be just as important 10 years down the road. I was and am a thorough believer that sex makes a romantic relationship.
It’s been 11 years and, yes, the sex is great so I have no need to seek it elsewhere. My partner has told me more than once that she believes if a man does not have a good sex life at home he will find a mistress. We are both of the opinion that when it comes to doing something for our partner there are few things less demanding or more enjoyable than sex.
I want to add that my partner is well educated and has a high paying position so she is not brow-beaten or concerned over being abandoned. The way she thinks about sex is not due to fear or coercion. Rather, it’s due to logic and love.
Posters have asked me if I would be hurt if my partner had an affair and the answer is “yes” and that’s because of the importance I put on sex. It is front and center in the relationship. It is at the very core of a romantic relationship. The puzzling thing is why do those who don’t put such importance on sex, those who believe sex is such a small part of a relationship, put such value on fidelity? | |
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Posted: 1/25/2008 5:10:39 PM | It’s been 11 years and, yes, the sex is great so I have no need to seek it elsewhere. My partner has told me more than once that she believes if a man does not have a good sex life at home he will find a mistress. We are both of the opinion that when it comes to doing something for our partner there are few things less demanding or more enjoyable than sex.
While I'm not so sure your wife's comment is true, I have known quite a few guys that have cheated even with good sex lives at home, if we take your own statement that at home its "great so I have no need to seek it elsewhere", then your argument of "she shouldn't take it personally, it was just sex" kinda flies out the window, doesn't it? Because then, in essence, you *are* telling her (just not in words) that there is "something wrong with her" when you stray outside the relationship.
Then, when she finds out and is upset (and perhaps wants to end the relationship), you want to tell her she is wrong for how she thinks/feels (again, there is "something wrong with her"). And you think its wrong to end the relationship with someone who thinks you are wrong for your feelings, wrong in your thinking, *and* not good enough for them in the bedroom. Wow, yeah, thats someone I want to stay in a relationship with, someone who thinks I'm wrong, my thinking is screwed up, and I suck in the bedroom. | |
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Posted: 1/25/2008 5:36:32 PM | forums1 - my thoughts exactly. My ex husband cheated on me 4 times and I forgave him all 4 times. We had a great sex life or so I thought but it was never enough for him. It took me a long time to get over the thought that there must have been something wrong with me. Now I realize he is the one with the problem and not me. I was comitted to the relationship based on love and never once thought about being with another man. But the lies, anger, and put downs are the things that hurt the most. The loss of trust and the thought that if he comes home late then he must have been with someone. Or the business trips that were really trips with his new f**k.
But life goes on and you realize that there are alot of men that fit this mold. And it makes it hard to trust another possible romantic partner because you will always have it in the back of your mind that he may hurt you the same way. | |
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Posted: 1/25/2008 5:42:10 PM | hurt is when you stub a toe or grate your finger instead of the cheese
thats hurt!
What is worse than youre partner of 25 years cheating and lying and with your best mate at that !!!where does hurt come in? !!try devestation !!family feuds!! childrens welfare !!then when you think you have got that in control try living a normal life
Whats normal now ? weekends walking with kids taking them swimming walking the dog .no not any more. some weekends yes . then you have the kids because hes busy so you do it as normal and as you pass the pub where he and his new wife are having a fag outside with the other dirty smokers you think to yourself *he got himself a new wife why the **** didnt he find a new pub as well* | |
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Posted: 1/25/2008 6:05:18 PM |
Monogamy is concerned with sex and only sex.
Sheesh, I knew you'd suck me back into this...lol...
Monogamy isn't just about the sex, Dave, that's the point you seem to be missing. Sex is a component of it...but, it is about so much more..but, we've covered that point ad infinitum, and you didn't "get" it.
When people’s “must have” lists include everything but sex...
I don't have a 'must' list. However, the word sex, or any implication of it , isn't a part of my profile. First of all, it's assumed sex is part of a serious, LTR. Second of all, listing it in any way, overtly showing it in pix..is a sure fire way to get even more sexually inappropriate emails and such than I already do.
Personally, I don't think I ever said sex wasn't important. And I said before, no one on here has either..we have said it isn't the reason for existing. Or the only component of a healthy romantic relationship.
Then one isn’t in the mood or they’re tired.
I know I, and other people, have said this in one of your numerous threads about why sex is all that matters...for most women I know, many times "I'm not in the mood", or "I'm tired"..are catch all phrases for ' don't want to." Especially, if this is a common comment. And as also has been said before...for any woman with a healthy attitude about sex ( which I would like to believe is most of us, if not wanting sex becomes a regular thing...there are much bigger issues going on. I hear a lot of men say "she stopped liking sex", and while once in awhile that may be true ( physical or emotional reasons, possibly), for the most part it's not likely she stopped liking sex. She stopped liking it with them. Which means something is wrong in the relationship.
No matter how much many men would like to believe that women are the same about sex, for the majority it just isn't true. Men can often want sex and have no real emotions or feelings involved. Even when they care about the woman...they don't have to "feel loved"first to want it? Anyway, this has been said over and over. It kills me how men, such as yourself, maybe, think what they need is the most important thing in the world.
And whatever the woman may feel, if it isn't in line with his thinking, she is WRONG.
And instead of trying to really work on what is wrong...on both parts, some men seem to think that finding it elsewhere is justified. And they rarely seem to think it has anything to do with them, or how they treat her. I would agree that if a man isn't getting sex, he will be tempted to cheat, I will never agree he has a right to. Same with women. (Most of this is from a female point of view...doesn't mean I don't know women do it too..though maybe for different reasons sometimes.)
The point of loving someone is to try your best not to hurt them, and to work together on issues..not put your head in the sand, and look elsewhere..or to deny it has anything to do with you personally..and there are lots of people , as forums1 said that cheat even when the sex is good at home. That's a cop out.
This is getting too long..I'm sorry...but, so much to respond to.
Two more things...
Are you saying both those explanations would stir the same feelings?
Dave, it doesn't matter which way it happened..they both hurt...period.
I love to see logic!
You can love it all you want. Rarely will you see it together with love and sex..particularly from women. I don't think Dawn was being logical, necessarily, I think she was going with the emotions of the 25 years that meant more than whatever happened before. I could be wrong, and maybe she is better at the logic thing, than a lot of women..either way, it was still about her believing he loved her. In her case, that was obviously true..in most of the cases I know....it wasn't. There was no behavior subsequently, or previous, that was strong enough that showed it as much as the betrayal disproved it.
And in closing (please forgive me for the long post);
For the record: I've never been cheated on or cheated. I happen to believe it is immoral, wrong, and can destroy a relationship faster than anything else. But, in my case, the button that gets pushed with your take on things is: I was married to a man who thought my feelings were "wrong' , "stupid", "mistaken", "inferior"...which seemed to give him carte blanche to mistreat me, and do whatever he wanted...because he was "logical", smarter because he thought, didn't feel, and he was male too, of course. You can logically claim whatever you like..if it doesn't fit with my feelings (regarding love and sex)...I will neither agree or "get it". If you don't ACT like you love me, nothing you say will convince me. | |
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Posted: 1/25/2008 7:17:14 PM | Dave:
I love to see logic!
zangie:
You can love it all you want. Rarely will you see it together with love and sex..particularly from women.
Zangie, I love almost everything you post... but I have to just comment a tiny bit (lol) and say that I don't think this is a case of a logical male mind coming up against illogical female (emotional?) minds. I don't think that Dave is being "logical" at all, unless one means by that that he's using some sort of deductive process based on a set of false premises (and thus coming to false conclusions). What I think he's being is patronizing--and it's not uncommon for those who argue untenable positions to do so with an air of "oh aren't you silly for not agreeing with me" condescension.
Really, these "your feelings are wrong" posts remind me of a book I once read about emotional abuse: one thing that pretty much all emotionally abusive people have in common is their insistence that the people they abuse think the "wrong" things and feel the "wrong" feelings... particularly in response to other manifestations of the abuse itself (like, for example, adultery?). I can't imagine how devastating it must be to be cheated on by a spouse.... but truly, the one thing I can imagine being more maddening within a marriage than sexual infidelity itself, is being THEN told, by my cheating husband, that I was the one in the wrong for feeling betrayed by him... and angry AT him. Even if I WAS prepared to "get past" an extra-marital ONS for the sake of my marriage, THAT attitude would destroy that possibility once and for all. Because apart from the sheer moral bankruptcy on the part of my husband that it would point to, it would also tell me that he was very likely suffering from narcissism personality disorder, which would, of course, make him a completely impossible lifelong partner.... except possibly for a completely submissive, self-abnegating, masochist...
It is a sad truth that people with a modicum of intelligence can rationalize anything (and narcissists are often highly intelligent). But this doesn't make them LOGICAL--in fact, I would say that a man (or woman) "rationalizing" his (or her?) adultery in the manner happening here is operating from a point of PURE emotion--his absolute love of self. "I want it, therefore it must be 'right' for me to have it" is an emotional response to desire, not a logical one. The logical mind THINKS about the consequences attached to what it wants and acts based on risk versus reward, sometimes hopefully also with a moral sense of right and wrong attached to that. When I (and I assume most people) think about adultery (in the abstract or the real--I certainly came up against this possibility when I was married), we consider, when making our "decision," the impact our actions might have on our marriages.... the pain we might cause our spouses.... the question of how much our consciences will be affected.... all kinds of things. And then we act--and we either commit adultery or we don't. What doesn't happen is some "logical" process by which we convince ourselves that our adultery (if we commit it) has no moral implications or possible consequences... and we don't somehow forget that we have a spouse as we climb into that other bed. So whatever is motivating us--to do it or not--we ARE thinking and we are thinking rationally, EVEN if we make the "wrong" decision.
But what Dave is describing is a mind that DOESN'T think rationally... because it is blinded by narcissism. Not only is the adulterer NOT committing an offense, those who would accuse him of it are the ones who are illogical.. and thus treating HIM unfairly. The adulterer has some good reason to stray, unfulfilled sexual impulses or similar --or his ONS has no meaning and so it isn't relevant to his marriage--or anything that make it OK as long as his primary GOAL wasn't to HURT his spouse. But this is the reasoning of a child (or a pathological adult), driven only by appetite and without the mental capacity to see a bigger picture than the one sitting before him with inviting eyes. THIS is wholly emotionally driven reasoning...NOT some sort of "logic" above the ability of mere women to comprehend or even DISMISS (as this woman does....COMPLETELY)!!
I'm not saying for a second that all adulterers are narcissistic or even illogical... or EVEN that every person out there who HAS committed adultery is a "bad" person. But anyone who can argue... and argue... and argue.... that adultery, even with a "meaningless ONS," is ONLY about "sex" when it comes to its affect on an intimate relationship like marriage--and so "should" NOT create a crisis within that relationship--and if it does it's the non-cheating spouse who is in the wrong?--well, HE is the one who is NOT thinking "logically."
Edit: I too was appreciative of Dawn's post, and moved as well. But while I can see the logic in what she says--that she wouldn't trade the years she had with her late husband--I wonder if she can REALLY know how she would have reacted had she known he was cheating during their marriage (and I don't see, from the information in her post, that there's any compelling reason to think that he WAS cheating). And anyway, I don't personally see her post as in some way aligning itself with the idea that adultery is "no big deal" position--if anything, I sensed a "if it did happen I'm glad I didn't know about it at the time" kind of tone there. Forgive me, Dawn, if I'm misinterpreting you. | |
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KCDebi
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Joined: 12/20/2007
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Posted: 1/25/2008 8:18:35 PM | I think it's a bit of both: cultural and biological. If we weren't socialized to believe in marriage and commitment, we would not hurt so much when betrayed. But, speaking from experience, being betrayed hurts like hell. Somehow it feels as if it is tied into some sort of biological survival instinct. I'm coming out of a very painful relationship and the lies, deceptions and betrayals activiated something inside of me that spoke to my worth as a human being and that in being treated in a manner that screamed I was worth nothing, I felt annilhilated.
I tell myself that guys, and gals I guess, who use people for their own gratification and with little or no empathy are sick. They're narcissists. They are the ones who break the social contact of the Golden Rule or Karma or whatever. It's not about sex. It's about being in relationship with other humans.
And if a man is totally honest with me and says he wants an open, no-strings attached, sexual relationship, I would decline. But that is my right - to access my free will and choose not to open up my inner life to someone who would not appreciate it. The problem is, many men - in particular - will not respect this or me and will lie. | |
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Posted: 1/25/2008 8:39:15 PM | Edit: I too was appreciative of Dawn's post, and moved as well. But while I can see the logic in what she says--that she wouldn't trade the years she had with her late husband--I wonder if she can REALLY know how she would have reacted had she known he was cheating during their marriage (and I don't see, from the information in her post, that there's any compelling reason to think that he WAS cheating). And anyway, I don't personally see her post as in some way aligning itself with the idea that adultery is "no big deal" position--if anything, I sensed a "if it did happen I'm glad I didn't know about it at the time" kind of tone there. Forgive me, Dawn, if I'm misinterpreting you.
Thank you. What a kind post. And I agree, 100 per cent, that it's impossible for me to know how I would have reacted if I'd have made that discovery - wow - it would have been 30 years ago now, when we were just starting out, instead of two or so years ago, a couple of years ago after his death.
But I'm pretty sure - mostly because of the nature of our relationship, and the fact, for better or for worse, that I'm basically the same person now as I was then - that we'd still have been together 25 years later. This is hard for some people to understand, but we never - in all those 25 years - made a specific "promise" about fidelity. So whatever happened, or didn't happen, "cheating" wouldn't even be the right word. I once - ages ago - posted in a thread on this topic saying I should write a blog titled "The Accidental Monogamist." That was me. I never planned it or desired it; it just happened. Life is so strange.
Here's another little nugget that I don't share often, but this thread and the viewpoints I see on both sides is making me feel a bit more open than usual. Every few years, my SO and I (we called each other husband and wife in social circumstances, but we never legally married), would have a big, deep discussion about why we were still together and happy despite the fact that neither one of us were big believers in monogamy or "commitment." We had a sneaky little plan in mind to get hitched after 50 years, just to drive all our (surviving) friends and family insane. Man, we laughed. Our "bridal registry" was going to be gift certificates at an old-folks' home.
Still, I'm logical enough to know that I'm looking at this all in a rear-view mirror. So, if I somehow found out tomorrow that he'd had a girlfriend for ALL of those 25 years? I can say this honestly: I still wouldn't care. I'd be in awe that he had it in him and could pull it off, but I'd have no doubts about his love or regrets about my life. None. I was happy. Still am, in a different kind of way. | |
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Posted: 1/25/2008 8:45:10 PM | Yes, (a bit nomadic) this is exactly what I was refering to in my shortened version post #381.
Look out for ego and guys/husbands/boyfriends/loved ones who invalidate your feelings, they'll say things like, " your silly, your crazy, your over the top", when questioning them or expressing your feelings on gut based issues that just don't sit right with you (affairs included).
They do it because they are looking to brainwash you into thinking they are correct. They need YOU to enable them so that they can continue on valdating their own messed up behavior. Remember, it's all about them, everyone must participate so that that they can validate themselves. Just like Dave is still looking for someone here to validate him. So, he will write long drawn out posts to try to rectify his behavior drawing attention to himself while he's at it.
They get high on the spin, they get high on adultery, they get high on the attention (doesn't matter where that attention comes from by the way), they get high on themselves. Ego needs the fuel of attention regardless of where that attention comes from (ego destroys love), narcissism... pathological liers ... 'it's ALL about ME behavior' that which negatively effects or invalidates others requires the help of a counselor.
Am I saying that all who seek affairs are ego driven, narcissistic, pathological liers, I'm not a shrink but they may have to have at the very least an ego based motive to even begin the thought process. A degree of narcissism? Perhaps yes. The ability to lie? Of course, not only to themselves but to their significant other as well. Pathological? A blurred sense of right and wrong does that qualify? So, yes... perhaps it is a part of how they were wired.
If your about to step into an affair...filter that thought process first... if you do that and can feel empathy for those you will be hurting...you will probably think twice about it assuming your wired correctly. | |
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Posted: 1/26/2008 7:15:02 AM | (Msg 403) Monogamy isn't just about the sex, Dave, that's the point you seem to be missing. Sex is a component of it...but, it is about so much more..but, we've covered that point ad infinitum, and you didn't "get" it.
Yes, we have been through this before and I gave the perfect example with the ring way back in the thread. Remember the guy saying he had to go to the garage Saturday afternoon when his wife wanted him to stay home as company was coming but actually he went to the jewellers to pick up a custom made ring he had made as a surprise for her? He lied and deceived her and he probably ended up getting a big hug and I’ll bet a little something else, too. 
Sorry, Zangie. Even if the guy lied and went to play poker with his buddies her reaction would not be the same as if he’d gone out for sex. It’s the sex, Zangie. If the lies and deceit were the big issues, the main problem, the cause for divorces, then a guy walking through the front door at the regular time he does every evening and saying, “Guess what? I took the afternoon off work and had sex with the cute waitress at the local pub. What’s for dinner?” wouldn’t be a major problem, would it? No lies involved. No deceit. No games. No planning. He went to the pub for lunch and stayed for sex and was completely truthful when he arrived home.
It’s the sex, Zangie. As the Bill's lawyer said at the impeachment hearings, "When people say it isn't the money, you can bet it's the money. And when people say it isn't the sex, you can bet it's the sex.
Another example. You overhear your partner whispering on the phone. When you walk in the room you can tell the conversation changes and your partner says something like, “I’ll talk to you about it tomorrow” and hangs up. When you ask who it was he tells you it was “Bob” from work.
A week or so later you encounter the same thing. Your partner sounds cheerful on the phone but when you enter the room you notice a distinct change in voice. Something is happening. Your partner seems more buoyed than usual although he’s not saying much.
This goes on few a couple of weeks and you’re ready to ask your partner directly what’s going on. Then your best friend phones and asks if you and your partner would like to come over for dinner Saturday night. You figure that may be a good time to get some direct answers.
You arrive at your friend’s house and you discover they have planned a surprise anniversary party for you. Your partner has bought tickets for a one week Island vacation and your friends have bought small items you’ll need like sun tan lotion and a beach hat and beach bag and assorted gifts.
What would be your reaction? Don’t forget the lies and deceit over the last two weeks!
Now, let’s say the dinner invitation is to inform you that your best friend’s husband found out your partner and his wife are having an affair. In both cases both your husband and your best friend lied and deceived you. Are you saying the lies and deceit have more bearing on how you feel than the difference between your partner planning a vacation and having an affair?
There was no behavior subsequently, or previous, that was strong enough that showed it as much as the betrayal disproved it.
You just hit the bullseye! If one does love the adulterer and believes the adulterer loves them then they wouldn’t throw the relationship away. If one enjoyed all the other things people list as more important than sex then they’d want to try and save the relationship.
But, in my case, the button that gets pushed with your take on things is: I was married to a man who thought my feelings were "wrong' , "stupid", "mistaken", "inferior"...which seemed to give him carte blanche to mistreat me,………….. If you don't ACT like you love me, nothing you say will convince me.
In that case an affair is just one more thing, one more “abuse”. What I’ve been saying is if the relationship has been going good, if one has treated their partner well, then an affair should not be interpreted as if the entire relationship has been a disaster. One should consider the relationship in its entirety.
(Msg 404) , the one thing I can imagine being more maddening within a marriage than sexual infidelity itself, is being THEN told, by my cheating husband, that I was the one in the wrong for feeling betrayed by him... and angry AT him.
I never said it was wrong to feel angry or betrayed. I said it was wrong or incorrect or misguided to believe, and thus feel, that ones partner did not love them. Feelings can be wrong as I explained before. It is wrong to feel good about someone’s misfortune, for example. In many instances it is wrong to feel jealous if there isn’t any reasonable cause. Maybe you prefer the word “inappropriate”? (I forgot you’re a teacher.)
It is a sad truth that people with a modicum of intelligence can rationalize anything (and narcissists are often highly intelligent). But this doesn't make them LOGICAL--in fact, I would say that a man (or woman) "rationalizing" his (or her?) adultery in the manner happening here is operating from a point of PURE emotion—
Ditto for the person who rationalizes a ONS means their partner does not love them.
But what Dave is describing is a mind that DOESN'T think rationally... because it is blinded by narcissism. Not only is the adulterer NOT committing an offense, those who would accuse him of it are the ones who are illogical.. and thus treating HIM unfairly.
Wrong. I never said adultery was right. The question is “How wrong is it?” What are “appropriate” consequences? Does adultery automatically mean one does not love their partner? Is it impossible to love ones partner and succumb to a ONS? Well, we already know the answer to that. Oldsoul told us, didn’t she? It is quite possible to love ones partner and that’s the whole idea behind this thread.
One can throw away a marriage because they feel hurt and feeling hurt is logical if ones partner had an affair but if one throws away a marriage because they feel their partner does not love them anymore and their partner does love them then their feelings are not logical.
……..anything that make it OK as long as his primary GOAL wasn't to HURT his spouse. But this is the reasoning of a child (or a pathological adult), driven only by appetite and without the mental capacity to see a bigger picture…….
Then the woman I mentioned in msg 378, the one rushing to meet a client, is also a pathological adult driven by appetite for better rewards, thoughtless of what would happen if she had an accident. (The other day I was on the highway to town. The speed limit is 100 kph (60 mpg). I was doing 120 kph (72 mph) and the cars were flying past me. This whole damn town is full of pathological folks!)
But anyone who can argue... and argue... and argue.... that adultery, even with a "meaningless ONS," is ONLY about "sex" when it comes to its affect on an intimate relationship like marriage--and so "should" NOT create a crisis within that relationship--and if it does it's the non-cheating spouse who is in the wrong?--well, HE is the one who is NOT thinking "logically."
Allow me to reiterate. It is not only about sex but it is mostly about sex and I have given numerous examples regarding the “lies and deceit argument”. Also, there are crisis and there are crisis. All I’ve ever said or alluded to or suggested is that people have an alternative to divorce.
An affair does not necessarily have to result in divorce. An affair does not necessarily mean one does not love their partner. An affair does not necessarily justify destroying a family.
… I don't personally see her post as in some way aligning itself with the idea that adultery is "no big deal" position--if anything, I sensed a "if it did happen I'm glad I didn't know about it at the time" kind of tone there.
Oh, that can’t be! If there’s one thing everybody agrees on it’s that they want to know. Tell us the truth! Don’t lie and deceive us! (Sorry, I just had to add that.)
(Msg 406) Still, I'm logical enough to know that I'm looking at this all in a rear-view mirror. So, if I somehow found out tomorrow that he'd had a girlfriend for ALL of those 25 years? I can say this honestly: I still wouldn't care. I'd be in awe that he had it in him and could pull it off, but I'd have no doubts about his love or regrets about my life. None. I was happy. Still am, in a different kind of way.
"I'd have no doubts about his love" WOW! You’re one hell of a gal, Dawn! It’s easy to see why the gentleman “hung around” for 25 years.
(Msg 407) Just like Dave is still looking for someone here to validate him.
No, I’m trying to show that it is neither necessary nor accurate to always think the worst about affairs. As I’ve said many times it’s quite likely ones partner does still love them even if they had a ONS.
So, he will write long drawn out posts to try to rectify his behavior drawing attention to himself while he's at it.
Wrong, again. I try to address as many points, brought up by others, as possible.
On a closing note I wonder how many people have thrown away a marriage/LTR over an affair and, consequently, have buried regret and bitterness on the surface. Hmmm | |
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Posted: 1/26/2008 7:32:46 AM | post 183 by the OP:
What I’m asking is what makes the promise of fidelity so important?
Why is fidelity important?
Because a healthy, stable relationship is based on love, trust, honesty, respect.
Infedelity is the dishonesty that destroys the love, trust, and respect in a relationship, and replaces it with suspicion, anger, jealousy, resentment.
I'm not sure why that would be so hard to unsderstand???
I guess it's just a case of the OP refusing to understand the obvious? | |
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Posted: 1/26/2008 9:02:06 AM | | .......i was in a relationship with a woman for 18 months, it ended very badly last may, we were in love, she broke my heart, when i discovered her with someone else, i paid her an unanounced visit.......i felt worthless for a little while, but bounced back from that pretty fast.....however till this day, i'm stil hurting badly over that break of trust.....i loved and trusted her so completely.....i never felt happier with anyone else.......and that feeling of love and trust in someone is what i miss now....even when i'm with other woman i still think of her....and that drives me ****ing nuts.....i just can't seem to put it all behind me yet.... | |
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Posted: 1/26/2008 3:43:30 PM | Little Pony:
If your about to step into an affair...filter that thought process first... if you do that and can feel empathy for those you will be hurting...you will probably think twice about it assuming your wired correctly.
Yes, we're on the same page. I think the key concept here is empathy... If you can empathise with others, it's my opinion that you will not be able (honestly) to rationalize deliberating causing the kind of injury to them that we are talking about... even if you make the decision to hurt them DESPITE your understanding of what you are actually doing to them.... which obviously many people do.
Me (as quoted by Dave):
……..anything that make it OK as long as his primary GOAL wasn't to HURT his spouse. But this is the reasoning of a child (or a pathological adult), driven only by appetite and without the mental capacity to see a bigger picture…….
Dave (responding):
Then the woman I mentioned in msg 378, the one rushing to meet a client, is also a pathological adult driven by appetite for better rewards, thoughtless of what would happen if she had an accident. (The other day I was on the highway to town. The speed limit is 100 kph (60 mpg). I was doing 120 kph (72 mph) and the cars were flying past me. This whole damn town is full of pathological folks!)
Well, I for one have never pretended to accept that this is an apt comparison--in fact, I find most of the analogies you have presented absurb... and I often think they are DELIBERATELY absurd.
But nevertheless... in this case, the speeding driver is behaving irresponsibly, but she isn't making the ACTIVE decision DELIBERATELY to betray her family. Yes, we can all agree that it's irresponsible for her not to consider the consequences to her family if she's in a bad accident, but she isn't actively thinking, "in making the decision to speed, I'm betraying the trust of people who love me." And not to (once again) state the obvious... but at least when I got married, there was no clause pertaining to safe driving among my vows.
I'm sorry, Dave, but when you have an affair you are making an ACTIVE decision to betray your family, whatever REASON you might have for your affair. There is an issue of intent here. Sure, you can say that the affair isn't undertaken for the purpose of hurting the adulterer's family. And that may be so. But again... and again... and again.... whatever the primary GOAL, an active decision is made, in adultery, to cause that pain and to risk enormous consequences when it comes to your family, their happiness, and their relationship with you. Driving too fast--while it might be very irresponsible, and should perhaps cause the anger of the driver's family--does not constitute the same kind of betrayal...
So... to expand on your analogy. If I were married and my husband was killed in a car accident, I'd be devastated. In my grief, I might be "angry" at him for not driving more safely, but that anger would not be an important factor in my feeling of loss, at least as I imaagine it, because I would have no reason to believe that OUR relationship was DELIBERATELY and WITH FORETHOUGHT compromised by his decision to speed. But if he was killed in a traffic accident while receiving a blow job from his secretary, my devastation WOULD be of a different sort. I'd not only feel the loss of the man I loved, I would ALSO feel betrayed by him, even in his very death. IN other words, I would be mourning not just HIM, but also my belief in his devotion to me... a foundational element of our very relationship. What I believed had been our life together--those memories would be tainted...
[I want to say that, with respect to Dawn, that what you (Dawn) are describing sounds like an amazing relationship. But my reaction to this is different from the one you imagine yourself having, for the simple reason that I do believe in commitment to monogamy. I doubt that you believe in violating promises... but you can't really betray a promise you don't make in the first place. So by posing my example above, I just want to say that I'm in no way setting myself against the really quite beautiful way you describe your relationship.] | |
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Posted: 1/26/2008 5:22:36 PM | why have an affair. IF you want to have sex with someone else, stop whatever relationship you are already in. No harm, no foul there.
Is divorce always the answer? Probably so. I'm not talking out of the back of my head here. I have been cheated on. My husband was never denied sex. If anything, he withheld. His issue was that I didn't validate his feel sorry for himself , alchoholic blubbering.
I took him back in after he left our home while I was out. He went to another state & hid out with another woman. I took him back & forgave him after discussing the issues. After more years of abuse from him and supporting him through 2 more back surgeries I finally got enough. He continued to be an emotionally and physically unavailable husband. He said he never forgave himself for cheating on me.
So, yes I believe divorce was & is the answer. Furthermore, my son still holds it against me that I tried to keep my marriage together.
Just my opinion, but it is an educated one. | |
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Posted: 1/27/2008 10:04:02 PM | Ooooooooopsie an affair . . . it just happened?
Or the other examples mentioned here -
A drunk driver injuring someone . . . . it just happened?
Someone goes to rob a store and shoots the clerk . . . it just happened?
As humans, we will make BAD choices - (planned or not) resulting in bad consequences that will affect loved ones negatively!
Then there are the DETRIMENTAL CHOICES (planned or not) resulting in the ULTIMATE consequence . . . there is no “forget and forgive”!!!
Moral to the story: “Just cuz you have to sleep in the bed you made does not mean your loved one has to . . .”
To EACH their own . . .
~Myth~ | |
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