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mako28
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Joined: 11/25/2005
Msg: 76 | |
| Have you ever actually seen a UFO?
Posted: 12/17/2005 3:36:24 PM | | Tend!!! Not always or absolutely. Maybe your experience is different than mine. As for myself, this is exactly what I have noticed. Is it scientific...no, but an observation nonetheless. As for atheists, I think that they generally are in love with their own thoughts and are generally not able to be critical. I love to debate, I love to think. When I get into it with most atheists I rarely get any give and take. | |
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| Have you ever actually seen a UFO?
Posted: 12/17/2005 3:42:04 PM | "As for atheists, I think that they generally are in love with their own thoughts and are generally not able to be critical."
Where do you get this stuff? I don't know what atheists you have met, but atheists and agnostics both, from my experience, tend to be very critical. Religious people tend to be emotionally married to their beliefs and do not enjoy having them questioned. Atheists, considering they live in a theistic culture, are obviously so, BECAUSE they tend to question. I think you are living in backwards world. | |
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mako28
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Joined: 11/25/2005
Msg: 78 | |
| Have you ever actually seen a UFO?
Posted: 12/17/2005 4:03:30 PM | Maybe...call me lucky then. I have lived in Vegas, Colorado Springs, Scottsdale and my experiences have remained about the same. I agree that many atheists and agnostics try to question social norms...but I think it is a minority (like yourself) that takes it seriously. Most, I feel, are simply rebellious. When I do try to get a conversation going 90% of them are so fixed on what they have chosen to believe that they will not look at other information. Take the global warming thing (I know it's way off religion...but it is the first thing to come to mind and I believe it to hold true to the example). There is as much science combating it as there is supporting it. I present my opinion and usually get nothing back. They don't look into the info I brought up and can care less. I try to listen to people and digest their thoughts (that’s the only reason I watched the above video) and give an opinion back to them.
In your statement you said that "religious people tend to be emotionally married to their beliefs and do not enjoy having them questioned." Maybe I am different or maybe you are...or maybe both. | |
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| Have you ever actually seen a UFO?
Posted: 12/17/2005 4:17:15 PM | "Most, I feel, are simply rebellious."
I wouldn't say most, but certainly there are some. Personally, I wouldn't even call them real atheists, and these people, later in life, often end up adopting a religion, as their inclinations are not based on any philosophical foundation, but, as you say, are simply rebellious towards their society or family. From my experience (and again, we are both talking from experience as I'm sure neither of us has a study to cite) atheists and agnostics tend to be critical thinkers. Anyone who shuts down and refuses to consider and check cited sources when engaged in real debate (meaning a productive discussion free of logical fallacies) is not a critical thinker, religious or atheist. | |
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mako28
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Joined: 11/25/2005
Msg: 80 | |
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| Have you ever actually seen a UFO?
Posted: 12/17/2005 5:14:23 PM | It doesn't make us "un-Christian" to realize and discuss the things we see...
Yeah, I've seen 'em too. I've even had more happen to me than that (at the risk of making myself sound like a nut to some) but it's true and it's something (fortunately or unfortunately) I have to live with.
My last girlfriend and I broke up in July. She not only did not believe in UFO's, she didn't wanna discuss it and would leave the room if I was watching a program on it. However, just before the 4th of July, she woke me up in the middle of the night in complete hysterics -- claiming she'd seen something in the room trying to "take me". She claimed there were a bunch of lights and that she struggled with them to leave me alone.
From the point on, she refused to let me out of her sight for fear I might "disappear". If she had to use the restroom in the middle of the night, I had to go with her and she insisted on going with me.
Don't know if I believe it -- but SHE certainly does... | |
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| Have you ever actually seen a UFO?
Posted: 12/17/2005 6:42:43 PM | Well i have never seen one but i surely know that they exist. I've had many lucid dreams where i have encountered UFO's, where i've seen the Sanskrit written beneath the starships, and seen the starvisitors. Also i constantly capture orbs in pictures which i believe are mostly starvisitors (sometimes spirits).
I think it's also possible that UFO's are from another dimension. Reality is stranger than we can ever imagine!
Cheer! | |
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| Have you ever actually seen a UFO?
Posted: 12/18/2005 7:41:29 AM | Good call starseed, especially from someone who hasn't seen a UFO. I haven't seen many things, which doesn't mean they don't exist.
@ mako28 and wonka;
I don’t think it helps the debate to be critical of others beliefs; beliefs aside it would be far more helpful to unite! If more questions were asked, on a national and international scale, it would put the right kind pressure on those who do know the truth to come out with it.
Mako, you said you found three of the speakers interesting (believable?). It only takes one of them to be telling the truth, just as it only takes one UFO to be extraterrestrial to change the world forever. | |
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| Have you ever actually seen a UFO?
Posted: 12/18/2005 8:27:32 AM | "I don’t think it helps the debate to be critical of others beliefs."
I have to strongly disagree with this Sky. It is through critical debate that knowledge is advanced. It is by logically, rationally and critically examining beliefs that both philosophy and science progress. If we simply accepted every belief on face value there would be no productive dialectic. The problem is not the critical questioning of belief; the problem lies in those who are so emotional about their beliefs that they can't suffer having them questioned. If alien spacecraft truly have visited the earth, it is through critical examination that compelling evidence will be discovered. Please note the use of the word "compelling" as what constitutes scientific evidence is very specific, and anecdotal accounts don't pass muster. If you don't know why that is, think how many innocent people have been convicted solely on eyewitness accounts with no forensic evidence against them. Forensic evidence is indisputable; eyewitness accounts are notoriously inaccurate and unreliable. | |
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| Have you ever actually seen a UFO?
Posted: 12/18/2005 8:51:37 AM | | ^^^ I agree wonka that critical debate furthers the advancement of knowledge, don't get me wrong on that premise, but I just feel, to serve the cause of any advancement in this thread it would be better to unite and push for a resolution; a once and for all disclosure on the truth of UFO's | |
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| Have you ever actually seen a UFO?
Posted: 12/18/2005 9:11:55 AM | | Wonka, I agree with you on most of your statement. Forensic evidence is indisputable,and eyewitness accounts are notorious for being inaccurate. You can gather from my previous link what my beliefs are, but for the sake of argument. suppose that we are dealing with a compleatly different dimension. One that we neither can see nor understand. one that cant be measured. If that be the case, as i believe it is. Forensic evidence isn't going to cut it. The things we use to measure, Test, and weigh in this reality is not going to work in another reality. That is quite apparentlly operating by different laws. and who is the one that is going to determine that the eyewitness account is inaccurate. By what means do you determine the account as inacurate? Sure some will be obvious. but what about the ones that you can't find no logical explaination for. is it discounted just because there is no evidence? | |
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| Have you ever actually seen a UFO?
Posted: 12/18/2005 9:33:18 AM | | Davie, nothing is entirely discounted due to lacking evidence. You could ask the same question of many non-falsifiable hypothesis, which is what you are defining. Non-falsifiable hypothesis are anathema to science as they, by definition, render themselves untestable. The same is true of god, the tooth fairy, e.s.p., which by the claims of many psychics, conveniently enough, does not respond when tested, etc. etc. That does not render them proved untrue, just unscientific. I, personally, don't see the productive value of such claims, as one can claim pretty much anything using that reasoning, and there is no manner of proving one claim sound and another unsound. There is functionally no difference between what you say, and my saying that I have an invisible family of elves living in my garden who, being the shy little buggers that they are, become non-corporeal when tested for existence. Again, that does not render such claims untrue, but, in my opinion, essentially meaningless. Is it possible? Certainly. Probable? Not so much. It's a great premise for a science fiction story though. | |
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| Have you ever actually seen a UFO?
Posted: 12/18/2005 9:46:13 AM | | I don't think I believe in UFO's... let me rephrase that... I don't think I believe in aliens because we don't have any proof. At least I haven't seen any. Unless the government has something hiding up their sleeves, but highly unlikely. But if someone was to show me something, maybe that opinion would change. Maybe. | |
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| Have you ever actually seen a UFO?
Posted: 12/18/2005 9:51:16 AM | "I don't think I believe in aliens because we don't have any proof."
That's my position, but I'm surprised to hear you say that as someone who holds beliefs based entirely on faith. It is my personal choice to reject faith based reasoning, but I have to ask you, what makes your faith based beliefs any different than those that you require proof for? What makes your religious convictions any more true than the scenario that daviemckie just described? If you are going to reject faith based, non-falsifiable hypothesis, then why, I'm curious, don't you apply that across the board? I'm seriously curious.
Davie- one more thing- if these aliens are able to cross dimensions, then it follows to me that there is some physical nexus between dimensions, which would mean that they are, in some manner, testable. | |
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| Have you ever actually seen a UFO?
Posted: 12/18/2005 10:21:34 AM |
there is some physical nexus between dimensions
Very good observation:
Sure, i would agree that there could be some physical connection which would allow for testing in some manner. | |
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| Have you ever actually seen a UFO?
Posted: 12/18/2005 10:36:41 AM | | I take the view that we all have beliefs in something, we must, it's a human desire to want to know more; to learn more, thus comprehend the many facets of life. My belief is based on gut feelings and those who know the truth but, for whatever reasons, won't come clean with the answers. | |
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| Have you ever actually seen a UFO?
Posted: 12/18/2005 10:42:01 AM |
That's my position, but I'm surprised to hear you say that as someone who holds beliefs based entirely on faith. It is my personal choice to reject faith based reasoning, but I have to ask you, what makes your faith based beliefs any different than those that you require proof for? What makes your religious convictions any more true than the scenario that daviemckie just described? If you are going to reject faith based, non-falsifiable hypothesis, then why, I'm curious, don't you apply that across the board? I'm seriously curious.
Because with what I believe, it isn't something that you feel and understand with your head but your heart. Ask any born again, it's something they feel; hence, that is their proof. Something that you can't see, but can feel it there. I don't think there are aliens because the Bible doesn't mention anything, but who knows? Maybe they are out there somewhere. But it would go against the Bible (and I do believe in the Bible).. But if you were to have aliens who would typically be smarter than us, what would be the point in having a god? God created man in HIS image. If man can be like God (not BE God though) what would be the point to have someone who throws off God's plan? | |
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| Have you ever actually seen a UFO?
Posted: 12/18/2005 10:51:36 AM | Wonka, Doubt makes a good scientist. and i'm no scientist. I myself have experianced something that i wont get into. Just for the fact that i dont feel like getting mocked. Has it changed the way i look at this reality. Yes it has .Will i try to prove it, No I wont. It would be futile. To me it is obvious what is going on. To others it is a joke, and to some just no proof and therefore irrelevant. I respect science ,but to me it just stops short of finding the ultimite answers to why are we here?
From a scientific perspective. your right
@sky i would like it if you were to explain what kind of different character differeces there is between ghost, poltergist, alliens,abductions and ufo's and apperations. to me, they all share the same characteristics. I think you mentioned something like they were different . Dont remember what post it was. | |
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| Have you ever actually seen a UFO?
Posted: 12/18/2005 10:58:40 AM | Sorry asb, but your logic is messy.
"it isn't something that you feel and understand with your head but your heart."
All you are doing is defining faith. The same can be said about any faith based position including the notion that aliens have visited us. You are completely missing my point.
"I don't think there are aliens because the Bible doesn't mention anything"
This is an egregious tautology. You are accepting one faith based position and using it to discount all others, which are equally as rational. It is no different than someone saying that the resurrection of Jesus can't possibly be true, because it isn't mentioned in "A Comprehensive Guide To U.F.O.'s." Once you utterly accept any belief on face value, without evidence, you lose the logical justification of discounting any others. You can only discount them, again, on faith, not logic.
"But if you were to have aliens who would typically be smarter than us, what would be the point in having a god? God created man in HIS image."
Einstein was smarter than both of us, does that mean that he was created in God's image, but we weren't? Clearly, different levels of intelligence are not the benchmark by which "we are created in his image." In fact, that statement is widely open to interpretation. We are not equivalent, by your own admission, so how exactly are we created in his image? One could fill volumes considering that one theological question, so your statement, again, doesn't stand.
"what would be the point to have someone who throws off God's plan?"
Really? You are privy to God's plan? Please quickly inform your theist cohorts as to what this plan is, because, from what I've encountered in my philosophical studies, they are dying to know.
Davie-
"but to me it just stops short of finding the ultimite answers to why are we here?"
It does not stop short; it doesn't even begin. They simply are not scientific queries, so you are correct, sir. And I'm not mocking your beliefs, just explicating why they don't satisfy me personally. | |
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| Have you ever actually seen a UFO?
Posted: 12/18/2005 11:09:50 AM | | And i understand that .I respect your position Wonka, and i wasn't suggesting that you would mock me . I have read enough of your post that i know you wouldn't do such., but there are others that thrive on it. | |
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| Have you ever actually seen a UFO?
Posted: 12/18/2005 11:21:22 AM | | HAHA who cares if you believe what I believe or not? I don't. I'm just saying in my head, it would go against what I feel. And ya, call that faith if you like. But you would need faith to believe in an alien too. Goes against ur logic. | |
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| Have you ever actually seen a UFO?
Posted: 12/18/2005 11:30:52 AM | daviemckie:
The differences between the character and nature of ghost, poltergeist, aliens, ufo’s etc. are as varied as they are by those who see them. Take the 'falling leaves' type UFO’s; this type I remember seeing in a book in the early 70’s, many years later on a sunny Saturday afternoon my wife (as was then) called me over to the window and asked me to look at something strange, above the houses directly opposite I saw the exact same thing. Not content to witness it with my own eyes I rushed upstairs, grabbed my binoculars, opened the window and focused on them. They were amazing white objects dancing in a spiral action for several minuets. They were still there when I returned to the livingroom where the wife was still gazing at them before they melted away. I have also, with others, witnessed a brilliant red glob dancing inside the house, no bigger that a fairy light on the xmas tree. I turned to my elder brother and asked him “Do you see what I see?” He is a born again Christian but had to confirm what we both know was there. | |
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| Have you ever actually seen a UFO?
Posted: 12/18/2005 11:43:30 AM | "But you would need faith to believe in an alien too. Goes against ur logic."
Not to be mean, but I seriously have to question your comprehension skills. How does repeating exactly my point, go against my logic? Go back and read my posts again, because you are clearly not understanding me. That you need faith to believe in something that either has not been or can not be conclusively tested for, is exactly my point. I don't personally believe aliens have visited us mostly due to this lack of conclusive evidence (although I have some rational issues with it as well.) If that paucity of scientific evidence changes, so will my position. Don't just read my words- understand them. You are arguing against straw men (if you don't understand what that means, ask, and I will explain it to you.) | |
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| Have you ever actually seen a UFO?
Posted: 12/18/2005 2:00:33 PM | | Ya dude you are kinda being mean. Just because my opinion goes against yours doesn't mean you can belittle people. Please just back off. Thanks. | |
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