| Abortion
Posted: 10/28/2005 8:14:43 AM |
Please read what I wrote. (as an aside, must you always be snide? I ask you this frequently, and you seem to be reinforcing a yes.) I didn't say that abortion is a fundamental right. I'd explain it again but perhaps you could just scroll up.
Hmmm the cut and paste from your post indicates you believe it to be a fundamental right.... wonder where I got the idea if not from there...
I understand that this might be your belief, but the reality is that a woman can choose to have an abortion and a man can not stop her; a woman can also choose NOT to have an abortion and a man can not force one. Therefore, one parent does legally have more say over the life of a fetus.
Well if it's legal, then it must be right! Kinda like slavery was 150 years ago, yes?
Actually, nothing has to be reconciled. Some would prefer that the laws be changed, but as they are now, they are working fine in these areas, in my opinion.
and in the opinions of others they are in conflict.... You aren't here supporting the abortion / murder laws, you're simply here trolling.
Sweetie, that's because you try to ask limited, skewed questions and you're ignoring the big picture. I understand that you're frustrated by the law as it stands, but trying to ask questions to force someone to say particular words won't change that.
You're the one that posted that my opinion wasn't actually an opinion because it was based on factual inaccuracies. I simply asked to to point out my error, and yet again you haven't been able to point out any.... | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 10/28/2005 9:54:43 AM | Opinions are beliefs. And I will agree, not all opinions are true and many of them have flaws. But I think opinions should be spoken freely, questioned without fear, and considered. The issue of abortion is a complex one. Clearly its not a black and white issue. There is some grey area. When I find people resorting to insulting remarks, it shows their lack of understanding on the subject. Whenever someone uses emotionally persuasive words to either demean me or my argument, I smirk. I smirk because its completely irrelevant. I prefer cognitive persuasive statements and arguments. I have learned how to WEED out emotionally charged statements in peoples arguments. In order to be good at argumentation, you must be able to eliminate the self. By eliminating your sense of self you will not be hooked into trivial name calling conversations. Hehe, to the argument, not to the man. Ad Hominem (to the man).
I will admit, i'm not a complete expert on every detail of abortion. I'm aware that it is extremely complex. Just because one cannot answer your question right away doesnt make you right and them wrong. Nor does it make them right and you wrong. People fail to realize this sometimes.
I enjoy pointing out the problems people have in discourse or dialogue. I bring it to their attention because it will help them find the truth. Before you can go about learning things, not only do you need a library (tool), but you have to have the right frame of mind beforehand. The library is worthless and you will get nowhere without the right frame of mind. Before you can use a tool, you have to know how to use it properly. A house built on poor soil is going to sink. Make sure the foundation is secure not on self interest but on reason.
I hope this was of help? :-) | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 10/28/2005 10:41:18 AM | | ^ Simon, I appreciate your input. A quick look at Yams posting history will demonstrate she seldom comments on positions or context, it's purely for sniping purposes. She follows some of us around from thread to thread trolling. Eventually she'll get popped for it when someone is tired of her smug comments, and reports her to a moderator. | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 10/28/2005 11:18:55 AM | i guess it would all depend on the age of the fetus and what the govt (haha - impossible to legislate ethics) sets as the defining line. is it from the moment of conception or the moment the fetus has the capacity for a conscious thought or is it when the fetus can survive outside of the womb? good luck. here's something i hope will encourage discussion ...
Dear London Free Press Editorial Board:
Abortion is not the answer, education and contraception are, but wait, contraception violates pragmatic Catholic dogma as well. The argument is as follows. In ancient Sparta if a father was displeased with the development of his child, the child could be killed up to the age of five. This meant a great many female babies were killed as Sparta was a war-like culture. On the other hand, pragmatic Catholics believe that it is a sin to impede the progress of a single spermatozoon because of what Moses wrote regarding God's covenant with Abram and his "seed" (Genesis 17), thus making masturbation and contraception mortal sins. Consensus dictates that somewhere in the middle is the answer.
In spite of the fact that you cannot legislate ethics, and that religion and politics should remain separate, the fine line arrived at by intelligent legislators in Canada was to differentiate between the zygote's capacity to learn, that is, brain development in the fetus versus the potential for development. If the brain is not developed, it is simply a tadpole, not a human life. How many young women have died due to "back alley abortions" prior to the legislation? How many young Catholic girls died during abortions because contraception was forbidden? How many young women who have had abortions are we traumatizing now because of all this debate?
Catholics for Life should re-read the Bible. Abram/Abraham married his half-sister Sarai/Sarah (Genesis 11:29) which was strictly forbidden by God (Leviticus 18:9), yet God chose him to be the "father of all nations". Do you read your horoscope in the paper? Better get to confession (Lev. 19:31). All you Catholic men, are you circumcised? If not, you better book an appointment with your doctor (Gen. 17). Do you like your steak blood rare, or eat pork, shrimp, scallops, crab or lobster? If you do you have sinned (Leviticus 11:7-12 and 17:10-14; Duet. 14:9). The ban on shellfish is reiterated three times in the Bible and right wing groups rely on some vague reference to Abraham's "seed" to condemn contraception and abortion. I say we go after those heathen shellfish eaters. The last update to the Catholic Catechism designated masturbation as a mortal sin. Oh oh, most of us are going to Hell. I'd imagine if Dr.Morgentaler were a Catholic he could go to confession and all would be forgiven. Hypocrisy.
It amazes me how Catholics can pick and chose which of God's laws to enforce and ignore others. The Bible tells us "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" and "he who is without sin may cast the first stone". If this is true, no one should attend their rallies or propagandize children. I choose to follow the teachings of love and forgiveness given to us by Jesus (Matthew 5-7). We should love one another and protect our children (the living breathing ones). | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 10/28/2005 11:24:58 AM |
A quick look at Yams posting history will demonstrate she seldom comments on positions or context, it's purely for sniping purposes. She follows some of us around from thread to thread trolling. Eventually she'll get popped for it when someone is tired of her smug comments, and reports her to a moderator.
Well said my friend!  As for the rest abortion is one of those issues that never goes away and won't because there is such passion on either end. Until the pro-lifers overturn Roe v. Wade, just deal with the fact that the law supports pro-choice and whethere the law is right or wrong in your eyes that is the way it is. Quit whining about it.  | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 10/28/2005 11:45:28 AM | For my personal view on the subject of abortion, I am pro-life, for my global view, I am pro-noneofmyphuckingbusiness. I'm of the opinion that if someone is in a position where abortion is something that is considered a "choice" odds are it isn't the biggest alligator they're currently wrestling, and the last thing they need is some unaffected person telling them that it's right or wrong.
I just like the paradoxical twist of the Pro-Life vs. Pro-Death Penalty aspect of the issue as it applies to the same fetus / human / glob-o-goo... | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 10/28/2005 12:54:05 PM | A quick look at Tim's posting history will demonstrate he seldom comments on positions or context, it's purely for sniping purposes. He follows some of us around from thread to thread trolling. Eventually he'll get popped for it when someone is tired of his smug comments, and reports him to a moderator. And Hac's recent participation is beneath her.
As for the rest abortion is one of those issues that never goes away and won't because there is such passion on either end. Until the pro-lifers overturn Roe v. Wade, just deal with the fact that the law supports pro-choice and whethere the law is right or wrong in your eyes that is the way it is. Quit whining about it. I think that the "quit whining and deal with it" position is a trite way to go. There are people in this country who truely believe that abortion is a horrible thing, and I for one am glad that they are able to express their opinions and beliefs. Advocating for a cause, belief, or position doesn't end in the voting booth. Trying to shut down conversation simply because you disagree is completely contrary to freedoms that that cases like Roe v. Wade represent.
For my personal view on the subject of abortion, I am pro-life, for my global view, I am pro-noneofmyphuckingbusiness. I'm of the opinion that if someone is in a position where abortion is something that is considered a "choice" odds are it isn't the biggest alligator they're currently wrestling, and the last thing they need is some unaffected person telling them that it's right or wrong. I agree. | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 10/28/2005 1:08:37 PM |
And Hac's recent participation is beneath her.
Well well, I am glad you know me so well to make that kind of assumption but the point remains anyone can say what they want about this issue, but don't you think it is a rather old issue. There will always be those who are against abortion and those for pro-choice and both feel strongly about their stance. My problem is when violence is involved regarding the abortion issue. This tends to happen more with the pro-lifers than the pro-choice advocates. I understand the strong emotions regarding this issue, but there is more going on in our nation that needs to be addressed than abortion. Roe v. Wade was established firmly as law in our country and my point is the same whether you agree with it or not it is our nation's law and we have to abide by it whether we like it or not. | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 10/28/2005 1:17:34 PM | Roe v. Wade
Its the law, nothing to do but live with it. Agree or not, If you do not like it. CHANGE IT. | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 10/28/2005 1:54:33 PM |
Well well, I am glad you know me so well to make that kind of assumption Ok perhaps it is not beneath you. until now you've seemed a bit more mature than you are allowing me to give you credit for. But I maintain my position. ;)
the point remains anyone can say what they want about this issue, but don't you think it is a rather old issue. I absolutely do; simply revisited again because of the SC vacancies. Personally I don't even believe that many states would ever pass anti-abortion laws even IF it was found to be constitutional, so yes, in a way this is MORE than an old issue.
There will always be those who are against abortion and those for pro-choice and both feel strongly about their stance. My problem is when violence is involved regarding the abortion issue. This tends to happen more with the pro-lifers than the pro-choice advocates. I understand the strong emotions regarding this issue, but there is more going on in our nation that needs to be addressed than abortion. Roe v. Wade was established firmly as law in our country and my point is the same whether you agree with it or not it is our nation's law and we have to abide by it whether we like it or not. Well that's absolutely true, for the most part. As citizens we are always free to bring it back to the court, but that's about it. | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 10/28/2005 2:02:34 PM | | I am pro life and i do see roe vs wade overtured in the future. However that will not stop legal abortion in the United States. It will become a state issue rather than a national issue and many states will legalize it. I say I am prolife but i do think there are times when it is nessary like in the defence of a womans life. I do not hate people who have abortions nor do I think they should be in jail. Everyone makes their own choices and I will not fault them. It was their choice and I simply think there are better options. | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 10/28/2005 2:22:42 PM |
I am pro life and i do see roe vs wade overtured in the future. However that will not stop legal abortion in the United States. It will become a state issue rather than a national issue and many states will legalize it. Just to clarify, if Roe v. Wade is overturned, nothing will automatically happen. States won't have to legalize abortion because it is already legal. They would have to pass legislation making it illegal. And I think that far FAR fewer politicians are willing to do that then they are to stand up and speak against it when they know there's nothing they can do.
Everyone makes their own choices and I will not fault them. It was their choice and I simply think there are better options. Ummm... littletwin? I have some news. Are you sitting down? Be sure you are. Ready? here it goes. You are actually pro-choice. I won't tell. ;) | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 10/28/2005 2:29:18 PM | | oh I never said it was right i just dont think I have the right to judge now given the oppertunity to try and talk someone out of it i will but i think as long as the courts say it is legal then it is legal no matter how immoral to me it is . | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 10/28/2005 2:31:12 PM |
oh I never said it was right i just dont think I have the right to judge Pretty much the definition of pro-choice! | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 10/28/2005 2:44:39 PM | Yams
He eyes the rim for a three pointer, he shoots............HE SCORES! | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 10/28/2005 9:20:58 PM | holy snipers
lol | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 11/1/2005 1:46:11 PM | I think the missing link here is "intent".
Scott knew that she was pregnant and killed her knowing this, therefore I would consider him committing double murder and I can certainly see why he was charged with this.
Seems simple enough..... | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 11/1/2005 3:35:50 PM | The issue here, though, (and I"m surprised that it hasn't been re-posted yet) is that when a woman gets an abortion the "intent" is there to kill the fetus. The OP is equating that action with Scott's action and wondering how one can be legal and one can not. Some posters don't take into account the origin of the constitutionality of abortion and therefore don't understand that they are comparing apples with oranges. They simply say "look at the big picture (they are both fruit) and implying that they should be treated in the same manner.
However, that's simply faulty logic. They cannot be treated in the same manner. Would you make tangerine pie? | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 11/1/2005 5:30:40 PM | ^ Actually someone did post it three days ago.... me, which you quickly attacked for doing so.
Simply because you see a difference does not mean that a difference exists, your posts represent your opinion, as others posts represent theirs.
Have you ever had tangerine pie? It's actually quite good! | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 11/1/2005 6:08:20 PM |
Simply because you see a difference does not mean that a difference exists, your posts represent your opinion, as others posts represent theirs.
Very profound. Yes, you may borrow my words.
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| Abortion
Posted: 11/1/2005 6:15:24 PM | ^ Thanks, if I ever find two posts where you don't contradict them, then I'll even give you credit! | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 11/1/2005 6:18:12 PM | | Grow up timmy! (I missed you this morning!) "See" you tomorrow. | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 11/1/2005 6:25:55 PM | apples and oranges are fruits.
human beings and chimpanzees are primates
we categorize them based on characteristics, not on potential.
fruits have their seeds on the inside, human beings and chimpanzees have the eyes in front of the skull, have hands, thumbs, etc. All characteristics.
not a good comparison in my mind, i agree.
Let me throw out something to think about, and let me remind you this is not my position, just something to play around with.
When a woman is pregnant and decides "Yes! I am going to have this child!" For some reason it becomes a person, but lets say about a week later she is like "Wait! no, I dont want this child" Does it become a non-person? Hehe, It would seem odd that it is all relative. What do you think? | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 11/1/2005 6:27:55 PM | | I think that what you're talking about are emotions. Understandable, if seemingly contradictory, emotions. Know what I mean? | |
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| Abortion
Posted: 11/1/2005 8:06:38 PM | | I think that in the situation you describe at the end of the post, you're oversimplifying. ...it's not as though the baby becomes more or a less of a person...if you want to put it this way, say someone really wants a baby, gets pregnant and is excited..they had been planning on that baby, they can't and do not want to envision their future without it, for that person, that glob of cells is a fully imagined being...in most cases of abortion, the baby was not planned for, so there wasn't a complex picture of it in the woman's mind...its about choosing to commit to something, and how realistic it is going to be in the mind of the thinker...if i tell you to turn around and spend eighteen years with the stranger standing behind you, it would be possible, but you would not have any way of imagining what those eighteen years would be like..i'm addressing this in this detail, because often, the reason effective discourse can't be had is that people are spewing slogans and catch phrases at one another..the human mind is much more complex than that, so it seems worth it to explore the complexity of the human mind right along with any decision it makes... | |
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