| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/4/2005 1:45:50 PM | SweetTreat, you do bring up an excellent point about the mindset of many Christians when witnessing:
And I will not be the one standing before my father in heaven being asked why I did not try.
Read your last sentence...key words in there..
1. *I*
2. *MY FATHER*
3. *I*
Nothing personal against Littletwin, but unbelievers have told me that they wonder about the motivation of Christians (or Mormons, or JWs-- all the same to them!) to witness. Almost all suspect a selfish motivation behind an otherwise loving act. Then they feel they have the perfect reason not to listen.
In a post-Christian society, which describes North America and especially Europe, the burden is on believers not to appear motivated by extra rewards or bragging rights (the irony of that thought!) in heaven. The motivation should be "the more the merrier!" Sadly, that does not come across.
Followers of Christ should also remember that Jesus warned us not to present a gift to people who would obviously not value it, which is what I think so many non Christians are trying to say in this forum.
Cheers!  | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/4/2005 2:22:33 PM | I will NEVER sit here and tell another human being they are WRONG in their choices. You, however will...to each his own.
What do you think you do when you tell a Christian that he shouldnt tell others of the love of God. The Word of God tells us to share the good news! so basically your telling us to go against Gods will, and what we Believe. and keep our mouths shut. maybe God has plans for me. to use me to win someone to the kingdom. maybe not. I'll never know if i'm not alligned with his will. and stuck on myself. Jesus say's that he is the only medeator between God and man it's not me who say's it . | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/4/2005 2:43:42 PM | What do you think you do when you tell a Christian that he shouldnt tell others of the love of God I've never once stated that...however the above poster made a good point that is what I've been saying all along.. when a non beleiver isn't interested in hearing it that's your que to lay off...which you don't. That's the difference.
so basically your telling us to go against Gods will Never once stated that.
I have said all along that I respect christianity, I respect the muslim faith, I respect pagans, I respect those involved in satanism. Why? We have free will. We live our lives how we see fit. We worship as we choose too. And I RESPECT each persons right to do so. If you are going to follow ANY religion you should do so fullforce...if not..why bother? But all I will ever continue to say is RESPECT someone else for their difference in religion. That's all. You may not see your constant preaching as disrespect to another and their beleifs and just "doing the work of God", but it doesnt come across that way.
When you sit and speak with someone..and tell them time and time again that if they are not christians they will spend eternity in hell (which is what the christian faith beleives) and they say to you, "I feel differently" or "Im not interested in hearing about it" and you push forward... that's being disrespectful to the person who you are speaking with.
Once you've witnessed..there isn't a need to continually try to beat it into someone. They heard you the first time. I beleive, that once you've witnessed, lead your life by example..if that person is TRULY interested in knowing more THEY will approach YOU. That's all. Simply, respect.
That however is JUST my opinion. | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/4/2005 3:14:52 PM |
Once you've witnessed..there isn't a need to continually try to beat it into someone. They heard you the first time. I beleive, that once you've witnessed, lead your life by example..if that person is TRULY interested in knowing more THEY will approach YOU. That's all. Simply, respect.
I agree with you on that. I don't like people pushing their thoughts on me 24/7 either and no one should. God says there are a couple kinds of people in this world...
1) The ones who plant the seeds...
2) The ones that water...
3) And the ones that will help it grow...
What I say to you can just stick in your head, or you can hear it and when you hear it again from someone think, aahh where have I heard that before? But the person who told you again can be the person who makes you want to change your life around.
Some people will see the way you are living and think there is something different about you and want to know, but if they are anything like me, they are extremely shy and don't approach people. That's why it's good to show people, "hey, the guard is down, here is the good news..." | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/4/2005 3:26:10 PM | Some people will see the way you are living and think there is something different about you and want to know, but if they are anything like me, they are extremely shy and don't approach people. That's why it's good to show people, "hey, the guard is down, here is the good news..."
That's where being "sensative to the holy spirit" is an important part of being a christian. Like I said I use to be a christian and am quite knowledgble on the issue of christianity, although some state I don't simply because I don't follow it anymore...anyways... being sensative means you are in tune with it and know when to proceed and when to back off a bit. And unfortunately many christians don't. Not all...but alot. I attended a church that had over 2500 people in attendance each sunday service... and I'm telling you..I got to see how alot of different people acted, and unfortunately it was alot of this:
Believer:"Beleive in Jesus"
Non beleiver: Why?
B: Because he is the way, the truth, the light?
NB: How do you know?
B: Because I beleive in Gods word.
NB: But how do you know it is?
B: Because christ says it is.
NB: But what's your proof?
B: The Bible
NB: But the Bible is just a book
B: No it's gods word
NB: How do you know?
B: Because God said so...
It's a vicious cycle with no end..
And I'm seeing alot of that in these threads....the beleivers are simply saying "beleive or else" and the non beleivers are saying "why should I beleive". No one comes to any conclusion...and people just get more frustrated. Beleivers beleive... and to them anyone that doesnt' beleive they just dont make sense and they can't figure them out. What christians need to do is remove themselves from the situation..sit back...set aside that they know God...and put themselves in the shoes of someone who has no desire to know God. And if you honestly do it.. you will see exactly why a christian continously preaching is like someone running their fingernails down a chalkboard to a non beleiver.
I'm not talking about someone that just doesn't know God..Im talking about someone that has no desire to. I hope some of this post at least made sense LOL | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/4/2005 3:28:55 PM | | I will agree with that . not to keep on pushing it. ,but this is a forum. and things get discussed. back and forth . back and forth. I could say somthing like Jesus is the only way , and Then be told i'm shoving it down someones throat. when All i did was state what i believe in . It's true that When you sit and speak with someone,and tell them if they are not born again they will spend eternity in hell .and they say to you, "I feel differently" or "Im not interested in hearing about it" you should walk away and let them come to you. But this is a forum. when a statment is made your going to get a responce. It would be very boring if only one person was talking . | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/4/2005 3:34:59 PM |
I will agree with that . not to keep on pushing it. ,but this is a forum. and things get discussed. back and forth . back and forth. I could say somthing like Jesus is the only way , and Then be told i'm shoving it down someones throat. when All i did was state what i believe in . It's true that When you sit and speak with someone,and tell them if they are not born again they will spend eternity in hell .and they say to you, "I feel differently" or "Im not interested in hearing about it" you should walk away and let them come to you. But this is a forum. when a statment is made your going to get a responce. It would be very boring if only one person was talking .
I agree.... and you will encounter people not just in the forums but in life that if you just say the word "Jesus" and nothing else they'd freak out. Those are hardcore non-beleivers and all entitled to feel as they do. I know sometimes it's easy to let someone get the best of you in the forums..alot of times because it is "just words". You can't hear a tone in someones voice, or see an expression on their face, you take it how you do. It's just how it is. I just wonder if some of these people in the forums that seem to push it that much...are like this off the boards.
Having said that so the christians here dont think Im saying "christians need to keep themselves in check"...there are some hardcore non beleivers I've noticed posting and pushing their agendas too, to which I don't think is right. If I've ever come across as doing so I quickly apologize because it's never my intention. If I'm pushing ANYTHING..it's the hope that people can just learn to accept and respect others differences in religion. | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/4/2005 3:49:58 PM |
Believer:"Beleive in Jesus"
Non beleiver: Why?
B: Because he is the way, the truth, the light?
NB: How do you know?
B: Because I beleive in Gods word.
NB: But how do you know it is?
B: Because christ says it is.
NB: But what's your proof?
B: The Bible
NB: But the Bible is just a book
B: No it's gods word
NB: How do you know?
B: Because God said so...
oohhh trust me I know where you are coming from on this. It IS a vicious cycle. Everyone knows it all too well... But I'm going to tell you what I've been saying since I started in the religion forums... When you accept Christ into your heart, I'm saying literally ask Him in your heart, you can pray about ANYTHING, growth, wisdom, knowledge, etc... but when He's there, you can feel Him. I'm not saying life is dandy and you are happy all the time and everything is just perfect for you (because it could actually be harder for Christians) but you can ask any Christian here, and they will tell you it's all about having the Holy Spirit in your heart to help you grow, to help you see things the way they are suppose to, to lean on, etc... You can feel Him and if you submit to Him, you can let Him work in your life. | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/4/2005 9:18:56 PM |
Why do you feel the need to defend anyone? Least of all God.
My love for God is without measure and so will be my loyality. It is also my nature to defend. It is what give my life purpose and meaning but it is my God,family,friends and others that give me Joy.
I do get sad when I hear someone say they used to beleive but not anymore. I say that because of the wonderful and meaningful life I have had. Even through some very tough times when I thought I was forsaken and alone I found him to be right there for me and i do get upset if not angry when I hear people attack God or his children(that includes all religions) If we sit and keep silent about these attacks as the nonbeliver crowd would like for us to do. It will destroy all we have worked for. I will Always defend him and will never back down. My God gave his only son's life for all of us, Christian and non Christian, he gave him for all people regardless of how you choose or choose not to worship him. And the very least I can do is to stand for him and stand I will. | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/4/2005 9:52:56 PM |
If we sit and keep silent about these attacks as the nonbeliver crowd would like for us to do. It will destroy all we have worked for. I will Always defend him and will never back down. My God gave his only son's life for all of us, Christian and non Christian, he gave him for all people regardless of how you choose or choose not to worship him. And the very least I can do is to stand for him and stand I will.
It sounds commendable and yet it is not the example Jesus gave us to follow. | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 3:47:31 AM | Littletwin, I will repeat this, just for emphasis.
If the majority of Chrisitans would stop actively trying to convert and force others to believe as they do, I honestly think they would see more convertions in their favor and fewer people leaving. I realize the whole concept of saving the immortal souls of the people you know is very strong and you really want to succeed, but the fastest way to fail is to criticize people who believe differently, even if you think you were being really gentle about it.
The problem we have with you and many others is not that you share the word, it is the WAY you do it. You cannot even begin to fathom how a nonbeliever thinks or feels it seems, and that makes it impossible for you to convert a nonbeliever.
When I was younger and foolishly angrily attacking Christianity the method I found that worked best for converting them to athiesm was to take the Christian perspective and walk them out through the steps I took. I do not condone doing this any longer but at the very least it would be more pleasant to see a Christian doing this the other way than what they currently do.
The first step to "saving" someone is to understand them and their perspective. Once you have that, put yourself in their perspective. Then take them step by step toward your faith. If they stop, then you have found where the first problem lies. Work with them on the first problem, get them past it, then continue down the path. If you are patient and can do this properly, then your success at "saving" souls will be much higher. The main obstacle in your way will be that most non believers have already thought through this and will have tons of barriers set up. If your perspective is truly right then you should be able to work past each barrier, but you have to do so from THEIR perspective, not YOURS.
If I were to use your method to convert someone to athiesm I would keep saying Monkies and Darwin, without explaination or context and expect a change. It would never work, I know this, you know this. Why do you expect it to work in reverse? | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 5:28:24 AM | | Jesus did say. "Go ye into the world and teach the gospel" and for ME to sit quietly while someone trys to discredit my God would be wrong> Don't get me wrong I do respect your views however I also feel in my heart you are wrong and it is my resposabilty to give his word.I know I cannot save anyone and It would be wrong to say that I can . Only God in heaven can save your soul all I can do is warn you what you choose to do with my warnning is your bussiness and to the post that alluded to Jesus not teaching to defend God well I think you ned to read where he ran the money changers off the temple steps. | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 6:42:08 AM | Several things I would like to address.
1) IMHO, Christians like to refer to ALL people that don't believe in The Bible as non-believers.
I believe, I just don't believe the way Christians do. I believe in the Goddess/God and worship in a pagan fashion. That doesn't make me a non-believer.
2) Now on this I could very well be wrong, but it seems that in the bible the main teaching of Jesus is peace, love and acceptance. He had one incident where he had a hissy fit and threw the money lenders out of the church. He wasn't preaching at that point he was mad at all those people being in his *Father's house*
It seems to me that if you came in to your own home and found someone dealing drugs, you wouldn't be preaching you would be throwing their butts out and calling the police. Different things all together.
3) Christians like to say I am just *WARNING YOU* of the terrible things that will befall you if you don't follow the ways of Jesus.
Now I don't know about most people I only know about how I react to that. And it is not a positive thing.
4) Christians seem to think that the only spirit you can feel in your heart is God or Jesus.
When I meditate or am part of a ceremony I feel the peace and love of my Goddess, I can close my eyes when feeling upset and tense and instantly feel calm.
Yet you don't see me in here saying that my way is the only true way to the afterlife. It is my personal way.
How as a Christian would you react to me telling you......I am only WARNING YOU....give up your evil ways of a Jealous God......accept the Goddess into your life before it is too late!! | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 7:04:54 AM | 2) Now on this I could very well be wrong, but it seems that in the bible the main teaching of Jesus is peace, love and acceptance. He had one incident where he had a hissy fit and threw the money lenders out of the church. He wasn't preaching at that point he was mad at all those people being in his *Father's house*
The main thing Jesus teaches is believing He died on the cross for your sins. Why would he come here in the first place? He wouldn't have come here. That was the whole point on Him coming to earth- to die for our sins.
3) Christians like to say I am just *WARNING YOU* of the terrible things that will befall you if you don't follow the ways of Jesus.....
Most Christians are SO SURE of what they believe, they would go to any length to teach it, they would die for it, they would do most anything for it. Not the religion itself, but for the LORD. We know how it feels to have Him in our lives... And I don't know what Christians you are talking about but I have never said I am only WARNING YOU. I try to lead the horse to water, but by all means, I NEVER push it to drink or threaten it.
Yet you don't see me in here saying that my way is the only true way to the afterlife. It is my personal way.
OK... you are claiming that there is more than one way to a better after life... besides your own, can you please tell me the different ways? And can you tell me how someone would have a "bad" afterlife? | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 7:42:29 AM | Asb,
To tell you the truth I don't believe anyone will have a bad after life.
I believe in reincarnation, and if you are a really really bad person in this life time, you will have to come back and work on getting it right.
I hate to think that a child abuser would have to come back and be abused as a child to learn his/her lesson. But I do believe we pay for our *sins* through reincarnation.
And maybe you haven't used the warning word, I probably shouldn't have said Christians, I should have said, some, or most, when I used that phrase. I was not trying to offend. Only give my opinion. If I did offend you then I am truly sorry. | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 9:55:18 AM | | No it's ok, and I see where you are coming from. You have some bad run-ins with some Christians, and we are all labeled that way. And I DO see where you are coming from because there is a group of people that I really can't stand too much, and that's my fault (and haven't really asked God to take that from me quite yet... Pretty stubborn). They messed with me in my life too many times, I just don't like dealing with them. And I'm not going to name names because I'll have some people trying to fight with me which is ridiculous, so don't worry about it, seriously. I'm trying to see where YOU are coming from. | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 10:07:36 AM | The primary focus of Jesus's ministry were to those who wanted to hear him among the Jewish people (believers). He also had some things to say to those who spoke of following the way but were misinterpreting scriptures, ie Pharisees. Those outside of the Jewish faith He actually was hesitant to teach the gospel to unless they demonstrated a real interest. ie Samarian woman, some Romans. He did not push anything on those that weren't willing to believe.
When He was attacked by the Pharisees or the devil about His teachings He defended them by the use of Scripture which was appropriate because they professed a belief in the Word. When Pilate started to question Him, He went quiet and refused to throw his pearls before the swine. In the Beatitudes He spoke of believers being reviled and persecuted by the religious establishment. Unbelievers do not fit in that category. If an unbeliever reviles or persecutes you it is more likely that your "light" is well hidden or so faint that they cannot see it and therefore question why the god you are serving is any better than the one they have. A witnessing Christian needs to remember Matthew 23:15. because the yeast of the Pharisees is just as relevant today as it was 2000 years ago.
In AA they talk about Attraction rather than Promotion, Jesus talked about being a Light to the world and how by our works we will be known. I've never seen a scripture that says we are to verbally beat the un or nonbelievers into submission to the Word. | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 10:40:56 AM |
Jesus talked about being a Light to the world and how by our works we will be known.
I agree..and I've been saying that all along.
I've never seen a scripture that says we are to verbally beat the un or nonbelievers into submission to the Word.
I agree as well. However those doing it...don't see it as "beating into submission". It's so much easier to see it in people and not within ourselves. | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 10:53:19 AM | ^^^ Evil Kyro, your ability to interpret the gospel is impressive!
All too often, I think believers take what Jesus did out of context and use it to defend what they do. For example, if a Christian becomes unpopular for his clumsy and confrontational style of "sharing" the gospel, he'll say, "Well, Jesus was persecuted for the doing what was right!"
But in this case, this person is being persecuted for being an unpleasant, self-centered jerk, and he sees himself as a martyr! And by "self-centered", I am trying to point out another weakness that many of us have when sharing our beliefs. We don't LISTEN to what other people are trying to tell us. Take an extreme example:
-"I believe this, and if you don't, there are consequences."
-"Well, I don't believe that; I believe this instead."
-"Yeah, whatever... there are consequences for not believing what I believe."
And it seems that some Christians just love to use the verses where Jesus overturns tables as a justification to get angry at non-Christians. I can't understand why they don't see the context of those verses. Jesus was angry because people were practically turning the temple into a pawn shop! And these were fellow Jews! Imagine a priest today saying, "Oh, to be absolved of that transgression, you'll have to give me that nice red Corvette I've seen of yours."
SFL gets it right:
It seems to me that if you came in to your own home and found someone dealing drugs, you wouldn't be preaching you would be throwing their butts out and calling the police. Different things all together.
Leave it to a "non-believer"  (sorry, SFL, couldn't resist) to see the proper context for Jesus' righteous indignation.
Speaking for myself, I don't feel a need to defend God like some bouncer. I need God to defend me in my weakness and frailty.
Cheers! | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 12:42:27 PM | I like what you guys are doing. I like most christians I meet, and have been preached to by quite a few. The one question that always gets an odd response is:
"Is your (specific faith/religion/belief) the only way to heaven? If I am a good person in this world but do not except (Jesus as my savior/others beliefs that apply), am I going to hell?"
Its usually muddled responses that I get. A clear yes or no is usually only from the zealous believers, and that is what bothers me. I dont like the idea of other people believing I am going to hell for not having faith in something that nobody can prove. Just thought I'd throw my two cents in.
Peace. | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 1:36:43 PM | honorable genius-
"Is your (specific faith/religion/belief) the only way to heaven? If I am a good person in this world but do not except (Jesus as my savior/others beliefs that apply), am I going to hell?"
It doesn't matter what your religion is, but if you accept Christ into your heart as personal savior, you are GUARNTEED eternal LIFE. There is a verse in the Bible... (Isaiah 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind out sins sweep us away) If you don't have Christ, your righteous acts are like "filthy rags" (and when they say filthy rags, they mean it in the context of a womans "dirty time" of the month.)
Ephesians 2:8 & 9 For it is by GRACE you have been saved, THROUGH FAITH- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast.
(Hope that helped!)  | |
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