| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 2:12:35 PM | Your words would indicate to me that action is nothing without the faith in God to back it up. It is to say that to work for the good of humankind is selfish, and takes away from God's influence on earth. It is to say that we exist only for him, and our actions must be divinely influenced to be good. However, if good is an ideal that only manifests itself in our actions, and God asks people to do good, it would seem that we will be judged based on our adherence to that ideal. I find it hard to beieve in a God that would judge us for not following the specific religious principles set forth in one religion, or following a specific figurehead. It is the ideal of "good" that matters, and as long as religion helps you find it, religion is good. When you say that I must believe a certain way for my actions to be good, that is a perversion of the ideal.
(hope that helps too!) | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 3:00:39 PM | Cut and paste
Christianity and Intolerance: Why are Christians So Intolerant?
Christians are intolerant because they try to tell other people what to do and what to believe," is a common complaint from those who have been witnessed to by a zealous Christian. Although the actions of Christians are often interpreted as intolerance, the primary reason why Christians are seen as intolerant is because the perceived, politically-correct definition of tolerance has changed over the years.
Intolerant Christians?
The "intolerance" of Christians is a direct result of the teachings of its founder Jesus Christ, who, today, would be described as one of the most "intolerant" people to live...
What is intolerance?To begin the discussion, it would be good to know what the word "intolerant" really means, in order to determine if Christians really are intolerant:
Main Entry: in·tol·er·ant
Function: adjective
Date: circa 1735
1 : unable or unwilling to endure
2 a : unwilling to grant equal freedom of expression especially in religious matters1
The really remarkable thing about the definition of intolerant is that those who say we Christians are intolerant and should not express our religious beliefs are the ones who actually fit the definition. Tolerance is not about accepting every one else's beliefs, but merely being willing to listen to those beliefs. In contrast to many other religious beliefs, evangelical Christians rate quite high on the scale of being willing to discuss religious beliefs on a moment's notice.
Tolerance vs. truthTolerance does not mean that we automatically accept every one else's beliefs as being true. Contrary to popular belief, religions do not teach the same things, and, so, they can't all be true. Belief, in and of itself does not make that belief true. Ravi Zacharias, a Christian writer, warns, "Truth cannot be sacrificed at the altar of pretended tolerance. Real tolerance is deference to all ideas, not indifference to the truth." Christianity is the prime example why all religions cannot be true. Virtually every other world religion, other than Christianity, teaches that a person can become acceptable to God on the basis of their actions in life. In contrast, Christianity teaches that no person, no matter what they do, can become acceptable to God through their own actions. In Christianity, acceptance by God is based upon the completed work of Jesus Christ, through belief that His sacrifice makes us acceptable.Therefore, Christianity and other religions cannot all be simultaneously true, since they teach opposite ideas about how one becomes acceptable to God. A Christian cannot accept other belief systems as being true and still maintain his own belief system, since they are directly contradictory.
The Christian is most often claimed to be "intolerant" when he refuses to accept and speaks out against "alternative lifestyles," such as cohabitation or homosexual behavior. Again, this is an improper use of the word "intolerant." Tolerance does not require acceptance of all ideas as being true, but merely a willingness to hear alternative beliefs. Those who say that Christians should not express their beliefs are actually the ones who are being intolerant, since they are unwilling to grant equal freedom of expression to Christian beliefs (see definition above).
Jesus was "intolerant"The supposed intolerance of Christians is a direct result of the teachings of its founder Jesus Christ, who, today, would be described as one of the most "intolerant" people to live. Although Jesus was loving and associated with all kinds of people, He was not "tolerant" of their "alternative lifestyles." Jesus confronted immoral behavior directly, and even had the audacity to tell people to stop practicing their sinful behavior. In addition, Jesus commanded his followers to "make disciples of all the nations... teaching them to observe all that I commanded you," and "preach the gospel to all creation." Jesus did not say to accept other religions as being true. In fact, He made one of the most "intolerant" statements that any religious leader has ever made:
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. (John 14:6)
This statement alone reveals that all other religions and religious ideas cannot be true. No religion other than Christianity claims that Jesus is the only way to God. Therefore, either Jesus was telling the truth and He is the only way to God or He was a liar and Christianity is false.
Evangelical Christians, in their zeal to follow the commands of their Lord, may seem to be over-enthusiastic and judgmental. However, in believing that Jesus is the only way to God, we want everybody we meet to understand their choices and the consequences of those choices. Love requires that we share the message of the gospel (good news) of Jesus Christ. The good news is that all people can enter into a personal relationship with the God and Creator of the universe through belief in Jesus Christ.
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:16, Jesus Christ) | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 3:28:39 PM |
the primary reason why Christians are seen as intolerant is because the perceived, politically-correct definition of tolerance has changed over the years.
The meaning of words change....and as they do the world adapts to the changes, or they should.
Never again will the word Gay be seen as just being happy, the tune in My Fair Lady will bring snickers from the younger crowd if they hear her sing * I feel pretty and witty and gay*.
Bad means good...(and I'm probably behind the times on that one)
I understand a Christians need to witness to someone, I don't understand the need to belittle in the process.
I also understand that according to the rules of the forum (maybe not Jesus' rules) that comments are made to be debated, and that you are not suppose to couch your responses as *this is the only answer there is*. So statements like "you are wrong, I am right and the only way to heaven is the way I say.* Are not acceptable.
And I do find some on here to be intolerant because they expect to be heard (read) yet refuse to hear (read) anyone elses comments. I have not asked anyone to accept my path, only to listen to what I have to say. | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 4:05:19 PM |
And I do find some on here to be intolerant because they expect to be heard (read) yet refuse to hear (read) anyone elses comments.
I may be misunderstanding what your saying ,But it's kind of hard not to hear (read) anyone elses comments .
Anyway, as I said before. I understand were some are comming from .and if a Christian tries to share the Gospel with someone, and they say they dont want nothing to do with it. Then The Christian should back off. Showing patience . Which would include the idea of never saying anything else to that person. ,But in a forum I will state what I believe to be true. Just as everyone else does. | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 4:40:20 PM |
Your words would indicate to me that action is nothing without the faith in God to back it up. It is to say that to work for the good of humankind is selfish, and takes away from God's influence on earth.
The action can be good but the motivation, bad. God is interested in our motivation as it is what affects our relationship with Him.
It is to say that we exist only for him, and our actions must be divinely influenced to be good. However, if good is an ideal that only manifests itself in our actions, and God asks people to do good, it would seem that we will be judged based on our adherence to that ideal.
The bolded part is a true statement. God asks us to do good for the right reasons. From your human perspective do you find it commendable when someone gives away a million dollars to charity and then brags about it to all the papers?
It is the ideal of "good" that matters, and as long as religion helps you find it, religion is good. When you say that I must believe a certain way for my actions to be good, that is a perversion of the ideal.
Whose "ideal of good" are we talking about? I personally don't trust any other human being to set the standard of good. I could pervert your ideal of good and say my ideal is better than yours so you are actually perverting my ideal of good. With Jesus Christ being the Way, the Truth and the Light, he has set the perfect example of the ideal of good. The reason I believe that, is that it is the most difficult ideal of good to attain of any religion. The desire for recognition of some sort, either by others or even by self for the "good" I've done is impossible to put aside. Or the motivation to do good is soiled by codependency or other ulterior motives ie guilt.
It is only when operating through the Spirit that a man can even come close to doing a totally selfless act of good. | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 4:55:03 PM | Fanny how the most obnoxious Christians get into semantics when they are called on their oppressive habit of proselytizing on forum discussion boards...
News Flash folks want to discuss spiritual topics not have a particular interpretation of what SOME Christians assume Jesus said or did forced on them.
After all, none of you were eye witnesses and no one knows for sure what the text in the bible should be assumed to mean...
Yes SFL language does change and its time these folks got the hint that shoving their beliefs down the throats of others here on the forums is not acceptable because it is AGAINST the forum rules... That is why the mods tend to step in…
Cat | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 5:44:05 PM | | It's pretty crappy that you have so many personal blows to people. Especially Christians. You may think what we are doing makes Christians look bad, but you are making your beliefs sound pretty terrible. Thanks God for God! | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 5:47:44 PM | sharing the Gosspel is a command ,not a habit.
your right it isn't for the forum.
News Flash folks want to discuss spiritual topics not have a particular interpretation of what SOME Christians assume Jesus said or did forced on them.
What do you think Christians are ! Non spiritual
not have a particular interpretation of what Jesus said. Give me a break.
Assume. I dont Assume
I'm suppose to stop talking about what i believe in cuz you dont like it. | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 6:12:15 PM |
After all, none of you were eye witnesses and no one knows for sure what the text in the bible should be assumed to mean...
are you a complete eyewitness to your faith? | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 6:13:46 PM | Well when you folks figure out what the bible means exactly then let me know because the worst infighting I have seen on sites like this one is amongst the Christians who are still debating who is right to begin with....
Proselytizing is an annoying tendency/habit that Christians may justify as a command of God...
The fact is that most of the most obnoxious ones on this board assume that those of us who are not Christians need correction from our spiritual path which implies that we are not spiritual.... so you will excuse me if I find that offensive... But does that stop you folks??
Nope so the rest of us have to tolerate it until the mods step in... Well ok I am patient I can wait... but I do think it is really crappy for you folks to assume that you are above the rules of the forum here and to make more work for the volunteer mods....
Cat | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 6:25:27 PM | Let me ask you a question, Spiritual, and if the answer is yes, than I will say I'm really sorry on behalf of all the Christians...
Has a Christian ir ChristianS said to you, no no let me rephrase that, COMMANDED and literally FORCED you to go by their beliefs? I was under the impression that most every Christian I have come in contact here on the site isn't FORCING anyone to do anything, but talking about their beliefs. And isn't that what the forums are about? Sharing beliefs? The major bashing that I have received in this site is from people who WEREN'T Christians. Not once have I forced or commanded someone out of my faith to become a Christian. Seriously? It's your (people in generals) choice. I'm here because the debate is good (and for the most part in good nature), a lot of the people are pretty cool (in all religions), and if someone wants to make false accusations about my Father, than I'll set them straight. And ask any Christian here, chances are, that is their reason for being in the religion forums. I'm sure there are a lot too who are doing what God says and is sharing the word of God, but to talk.
What's pretty sad and "intolerable" is the fact that in most of the threads, you guys bash the crap out of us (even if it doesn't apply to the subject) now THATS sad. | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 6:43:07 PM | ASB you do not know your Christian history very well... Was not so long ago that Spiritualists had to practice their beliefs in secret because Christian based laws in North America made our beliefs unlawful/ criminal... and it was taking your life into your own hands to be a Spiritualist. ... In the early in the 20th century there were several incidents where spiritualist buildings were burned and people were arrested for openly identifying as and practicing as Spiritualists.
The scary part is that the Fundamentalist movement is gaining favor in the US and Canada and Non Christians as a whole not just Spiritualists my have to live under such rule that may make it just as difficult to follow their beliefs as it has been no so long ago.
As a medium I AM an eyewitness to my faith… Spiritualism does not limit itself to an ancient holy book and sees God and spiritual growth in every day life and existence. I have seen Spirits show themselves in ways you could never imagine and experienced spirit communication. I have been blessed to be able to help many with the messages that are conveyed… Spiritualism is a path to be studied not preached but I can tell you for a fact that there is much more to this world and the afterlife than the Christian POV will ever address. You are welcome to your POV and debate IS good. I am here to debate also but proselytizing is NOT debate. Folks need to get that straight.
Cat | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 6:54:00 PM | | I agree with you. People do need to get it straight. ALL OF US. Did you also ever think that Christians (sure we weren't born back then to physically EXPERIENCE the Bible being put together) could also be the eyewitness to the faith? I (only myself) have seen God in action SO MANY TIMES not only in my own life, but in the peoples lives around me, I can't even tell you the feeling it gives me. It's beyond worldly. You can be anything and all you can be, spiritual, but please stop knocking Christians because they don't believe what you do. It's not only getting old, but it's starting to change my p.o.v. of people with your beliefs and I don't want to be against anyone. | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 7:08:31 PM | Asb,
Obviously other then my parents telling me *YES YOU WILL GO TO CHURCH* no one on this board or anywhere else has Forced me to accept their views.
Because I believe in something that I know a lot of others can't see or understand I usually try and couch my words kindly.
Yet I have seen (as I am sure you have towards Christianity) some very nasty posts about paganism.
One poster said, and this is not an exact quote...but pretty much we should be ignored because our religion was no different then believeing in Santa Claus or the Great Pumpkin.
Another one did a very nasty post about dancing fairys, and talking roses........
Both of these people were Christians. Again, I don't expect them to accept my beliefs, all I ask is that my posts be treated with the same respect that they would want when debating with what they believe.
I can completely understand the fact that you have a great faith in God and that you truly believe Jesus is his son.
I believe Jesus walked this earth, and could even be a reincarnation of one of the Pagan Gods. I don't believe in the Bible. And usually that is what I debate. | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 7:11:23 PM | Davie,
I may be misunderstanding what your saying ,But it's kind of hard not to hear (read) anyone elses comments .
I have on several different occasions asked questions of an OP. That are ignored
So maybe the comments are read, but they don't deem them worth of an answer, they just keep expounding on what they originally said. Or they change the subject. | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 7:15:51 PM | ASB I have no problem that Christianity does for you what Spiritualism does for me but I agree with SFL's post here... Next time you see a Christian bash a non Christian do me a favor and call them on it... and then go and pray for them to find a better way to get their point across... THAT would be true Christian service. As for me I say what I think when the threads get too over the top or off topic... If that seems like Christian bashing I am sorry but most often it is certain Christians that hijack threads and begin proselytizing rather than debating... Telling someone their faith is like believing in Santa Clause or the Great Pumpkin is pretty crappy don't you think?
Cat | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 7:18:41 PM | Now see, what both seriouslyfunnylady,and asb just posted is a esample of good discussion.two people of different veiws having a civil discussion.
as for you spiritual ,only anger,, yes saying something like that would be wrong. and i will say something to a christian if it is done. that would be crappy spiritual | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 8:31:37 PM | | Spiritual, I can agree with you 100% on calling another Christian on a point. I have email other Christians on this site quite a few times and told them to back off. Unfortunitely I deleted the email a while back, but I would show you them if I could. So I can agree with you on that and I would tell them. Forcing anything on anyone is just flat out wrong. And if you are like me and stubborn as heck (not close-minded) than that will get to you. But yes, I can agree with that. | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 8:32:19 PM | Dear Count Ibli:
I just read your reply to Buccaneer38 (Tracy), and am mightily impressed. If you wrote that out just when you posted it from the heart I am amazed. So clear, accurate and deadly. That you know your bible is so obvious. That you know exactly where you stand, and that you know exactly why is so very excellent.
I am stunned at how well it was written, and I salute you!
And in case any one is thinking I only like anti Christian literature, you are very mistaken. Quality is quality, and it can be on any topic. But this example was not a mere copying of written material, it was an original work, written quickly but so well. This appeared on Page 1 of this thread. Sorry I'm so late.
Ed.. | |
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| Used to be Christian... now against it.
Posted: 11/5/2005 8:46:21 PM | | Thanks Ed. My decision to leave Christianity was not something I took lightly nor did I do it on the spur of the moment. I spent a long time studying the Bible in order to put my doubts to rest. That studying had the opposite effect. It was a very distressing time for me. I liken it to a trapped animal chewing off its leg in order to survive. | |
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