| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/21/2005 5:26:23 PM |
The promotion of secular activities over christmass is the same as establishing secularism as a religion.
Ummm... you were on the right track. Until this. Secularism isn't a religion, and having "secular activities" doesn't make it one. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/21/2005 6:14:33 PM | The promotion of secular activities over christmass is the same as establishing secularism as a religion.
Yams
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My mistake.
I meant to say the eliminating of christmass activities to replace them with secular activities can not be done by the government if it is to be impartial to religion. If you are impartial to something, you do not act for or against it.
The amendment that says the government make no law to extablish or forbid Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof seems to me to require that the government remain impartial to all religions. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/21/2005 7:05:35 PM | they have not even ask the muslims,jews,hindus and other ethnic cultures anything about it but just are doing it saying it is upsetting them.i know a muslim and he cant understand why they are saying this.
^^^Exactly! The people coming up with this crap (here in England) are Middle-Class Anglo-Saxons!
I have two theories on this:
1. They have an axe to grind and are just using 'minorities' as a pretext to hide their own prejudice.
In which case, it's actually intolerance (against the Christian Faith) disguised as 'tolerance'.
2. They WANT race-relations to deteriorate... after all, what could acheive that more effectively than making the indigenous population think that immigrants are trying to change the host culture?
In any case, the Black community is one of the most deeply religious communities in UK. What about their 'rights as a minority' to openly express their Faith through the celebration of a religious Christmas??
There's something sickeningly SMUG and hypocritical about this type of 'political correctness'.
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fannin
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Joined: 10/21/2005
Msg: 29 | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/21/2005 10:56:47 PM | | Christmas has probably been a secular holiday for quite some time now. The argument used to be that Christ was being left out of Christmas, now it is Christmas being left out of Christmas!! I still am not understanding as to why some African-americans chose to acknowledge their African roots with a newly established holiday celebrated at the same time as Christmas. As someone pointed out they are probably more religious than caucasians. I do not begrudge anyone celebrating/exploring their heritage but is there a reason this needed to be done at Christmastime? From my understanding Kwaanza is not observed by those in Africa. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/22/2005 6:14:20 AM |
I meant to say the eliminating of christmass activities to replace them with secular activities can not be done by the government if it is to be impartial to religion. If you are impartial to something, you do not act for or against it. They absolutely can eliminate religion from their property, functions, etc. And there's nothing wrong with that; it's an absolutely acceptable way to handle it. The gov't is not saying that YOU can't do whatever you want elsewhere, but on gov't prop and on the gov't dime, "replacing" activities with secular activities is actually the safest way to go.
I do not begrudge anyone celebrating/exploring their heritage but is there a reason this needed to be done at Christmastime? From my understanding Kwaanza is not observed by those in Africa. Why in the world would you begrudge anyone having more celebration, at ANY time of the year? Who in the world cares? It doesn't interefere with your celebration of Christmas.
Also, as you eluded to, Kwaanza is an African-American Holiday, so... what does that have to do with Africa? | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/22/2005 9:06:28 AM | | I thought I made it pretty clear. I stated that I wondered why African-americans chose to do this cultural exploration at Christmastime as it horns in on the Christmas holiday. I was not chiding them, just asking. Please do not try to turn the statement into something it was not. Now if you know why they chose to do this at Christmas, I am all ears. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/22/2005 9:20:52 AM | Please do not take offense at my response. I in no way said that you were "chiding" them. I responded to the statement "I do not begrudge anyone celebrating/exploring their heritage but..." A statement like that... "yes, but" generally indicates some disagreement with whatever you're talking about. If that didn't accurately reflect how you feel, that's one thing, but I certainly didn't change your statement at all.
As far as Kwaanza being celebrated around the same time as your holiday, Kwaanza in part involves celebration of the new year, and late December is quite a natural time to do that. It addresses seven principles, and lasts seven days, ending on the first of the year. It would make less sense to do this in, say, August, in order to avoid major christian holidays. Actually, I think it is a nice complement to Christmas.
To clarify, it exists along side of religious holidays, not in place of them.
To be honest, it baffles me as to how the question of "why did they have to pick this time" even comes up. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/22/2005 9:37:33 AM | You asked why it is around Christmas time. That's why.
You seem put off by that. Why, if I might ask?
Celebration of the new year is not so set in stone. The Celts celebrated the new year in November and is still observed by some. Ummm... that's because that's when their new year began. So... you support the idea that a celebration of the new year should be when the new year begins. The only sensible thing, in my opinion. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/22/2005 11:56:46 AM | I say leave it alone celebrate what you want anytime you want. all you want. Celebrations are good for everyone and anyone who has a problem with a manger scene in front of my court house i say to you look the other way. you dont hear me complain about the holy month of ramandan or hannuka or kwannza.( sorry about the spelling) Congress shall not establish a national religon Nor Prohibit The Free Expression There Of. I say put what ever your heart desires in front of our govt bulidings they belong to us. Lets all celebrate every event. lets put all our disagreements aside and become a big family of loving caring people watching out for one another. All we have to do to accomplish that is to do it we can start by saying hi to everyone we see, helping someone carry their goods from a store or opening a door for someone, by bringing someone food who needs it, letting them know you care. That is what all of the celebrations are about.In closing i will contuine to say MERRY CHRISTMAS it is not a offenseive term it is a greeting of love | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/22/2005 12:29:12 PM | I agree that it is not offensive to me, and I don't mean it offensively when I say it. But it really isn't your place or mine to decide what is offensive to others, you know?
I really suspect that if all of the federal and state buildings took down all references to christianity and inscribed quotes from the Koran all over that you might take issue. Just a hunch; I could be mistaken. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/22/2005 12:56:05 PM | I really suspect that if all of the federal and state buildings took down all references to christianity and inscribed quotes from the Koran all over that you might take issue. Just a hunch; I could be mistaken.
i would be offended if it took anybodys down it is free expression i do not think it is right to limit anyones expression of faith except when it does bodily harm to a person or any living thing and yes it is our place to decide what is offence that is why we vote | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/22/2005 1:01:36 PM |
i would be offended if it took anybodys down it is free expression i do not think it is right to limit anyones expression of faith except when it does bodily harm to a person or any living thing and yes it is our place to decide what is offence that is why we vote This is a different question.
Hypothetical... your state capitol is completely free of religious inscription. Tomorrow, there is a decision made to inscribe a passage of the Koran on each side of the building, and above several main door frames as well. Just from the Koran. Would that be ok with you? | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/22/2005 1:34:15 PM | | I think that's part of the problem; there is a lot of exclusivity. And, more importantly, there is not ROOM for all to have the opportunity, and it isn't ok for the gov't to prioritize some over others. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/22/2005 6:30:35 PM | No, it isn't. Not at all. All are free to freely express their religion; whether or not the gov't puts up religious displays has nothing to do with free speech, because the government's speech is not protected.
im sure that is true but in towns where it is clearly that most are christian then there should be no conflict but to not allow anything is a restriction of free speech What if in one of these towns a gigantic menorah was put up and didn't leave room for any christmas decorations in front of the town hall? | |
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daisie
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Joined: 9/22/2004
Msg: 44 | |
| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/22/2005 6:51:59 PM | | Holiday-Schmoliday.....DUMB IDEA....what if I'm Jehova's Witness and "holidays" offend me? Well I tell you....the minute they change it to "Winter Holidays" I'm going to contact the ACLU and file a lawsuit. I am sick and tired of being disrespected in my own country. Damn narrow-minded, hate-mongerers... | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/22/2005 7:22:46 PM | yams if your trying to use me to justify your point then youve come to the wrong place i will fight tooth and nail for my rights and will go to my grave kicking and screaming i tell you if someone is offended beacuse the saw a manger scene they dont have much of a life i see things everyday that I dont agree with but i think hey that is their expression and they are free to express it .if you dont like the symbol you are looking at turn your head, get over it live your life and mind your own bussiness rather than worry if the baby Jesus Is gonna hurt someones feelings if you do this then you seem like someone trying to destroy someones traditions this correctness crap is just taht crap if i move to another country that has a diffefrent belief ten i have chosen to put myself in this situation and will abide by the customs and traditions of that country not try to change it because i dont like itor im afraid someone else wont like it. if you want to be offended by anything then you will be offended by everything and quite frankly your post on this situation offends me but i respect your point of view and i freely await your response un like those who are narrow minded and want to hurt others by restricting their freedom of expression
What if in one of these towns a gigantic menorah was put up and didn't leave room for any christmas decorations in front of the town hall?
why would I be offended by a Menorah. why would anyone be offended by a religous symbol I could understand being offended by a nazi symbol or someother crap but a Menorah plus why would a town with a little or no jewish place jewish symbols anyway except to remember what it stands for I stand by my point it is a celebration by people of faith if there free expression of faith offends you too bad it is a Right not to be denied by anyone our founding fathers established this country with the princpals of freedom freedom of speech freeddom of religon not restricted freedoms because it might offended someone those men laid down their lives for this freedom they endangerd their families lives there friends lives so i can see a christmas symbol on my repeat my courthouse square and i will honor their deaths and sacrificies my singing christmas carols on its steps this year please come join me | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/22/2005 7:53:17 PM | Wow. To clarify a few points:
1) I'm not trying to "use" you for anything; just discussing the issue. Are you upset that I don't agree with you?
2)
get over it live your life and mind your own bussiness rather than worry if the baby Jesus Is gonna hurt someones feelings if you do this then you seem like someone trying to destroy someones traditions this correctness crap is just taht crap if i move to another country that has a diffefrent belief ten i have chosen to put myself in this situation and will abide by the customs and traditions of that country not try to change it because i dont like itor im afraid someone else wont like it. You have neatly identified the entire point of the thread (in the longest sentence in history!) Christianity is not the "custom and tradition" of this country. No one is trying to change your beliefs or your customs; the gov't just can't raise your beliefs above others' that's all.
3)
if you want to be offended by anything then you will be offended by everything and quite frankly your post on this situation offends me but i respect your point of view and i freely await your response un like those who are narrow minded and want to hurt others by restricting their freedom of expression
I'm not offended by any expression of religion, actually. And I haven't said otherwise. I'm not approaching this from an emotional standpoint; the topic is separation of church and state and I'm discussing that. I'm baffled as to how my post offended you; that was certainly not the intention. I am interested to know what part offended you, but I will wait until you're calmer because it doesn't appear you're in the mood for the question. *edit~ I take that back; I don't even want to know. Because I've been nothing but objective in this conversation, and you're now going on the attack. I certainly don't want a conversation about it. Anyway...* But to call me narrow-minded is a bit ignorant, friend. We view the issue of the thread differently; I haven't insulted you and I would appreciate the same respect. As far as restriction of freedom, you're missing the entire point. YOU are free to express anything you want, but the government is not. We are talking about GOVERNMENT displays of religion, so getting all hot and bothered and "hurt" and calling me narrow-minded is simply illogical.
4)
why would I be offended by a Menorah. You've again missed my point. I'm sorry I wasn't more clear. My hypo was intended to illustrate a situation where there would not be room for your gov't to display both a Jewish symbol and your symbol; I in no way suggested that you would be offended by a Menorah.
5)
why would a town with a little or no jewish place jewish symbols anyway Going to the heart of this thread... because the government can't choose to represent some without representing all, in short. This comment is an example of you throwing your emotions into this, which is understandable, but you seem to be getting upset for no reason. Again, no one is trying to affront you.
6)
I stand by my point it is a celebration by people of faith if there free expression of faith offends you too bad it is a Right not to be denied by anyone Once again you're straying. No one, NO ONE even suggested that you can't freely express your faith. But remember, the government can't freely express your faith, only YOU can. Individuals can. Just NOT THE GOVERNMENT. (hence, the title of the thread.)
7)
our founding fathers established this country with the princpals of freedom freedom of speech freeddom of religon not restricted freedoms because it might offended someone Yes, we're clear on that. This is EXACTLY WHY the Government needs to stay out of the holiday decoration business. You picking that up yet?
8)
those men laid down their lives for this freedom they endangerd their families lives there friends lives so i can see a christmas symbol on my repeat my courthouse square  Wrong. Completely wrong. Remarkably wrong. Couldn't be more wrong.
9)
and i will honor their deaths and sacrificies my singing christmas carols on its steps this year please come join me Only if you calm down. And even then, no. I sing Christmas carols to honor my faith. But thanks for the offer. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/22/2005 8:10:20 PM | those men laid down their lives for this freedom they endangerd their families lives there friends lives so i can see a christmas symbol on my repeat my courthouse square
Wrong. Completely wrong. Remarkably wrong. Couldn't be more wrong.
this is the very one point i will disagree with you on the most
those men died for my freedom my right to worship as i choose and to express anything i choose to express any any peacefull mater i choose in this case my friend you are wrong
as to govt establishing the plscement of decrorations on the court hoise lawn it is not govt making a law in order to place them there it is people in show of celebration placing them in there own free will and accord not in a govt decree(forgive the spelling)
please take no offence in my post im not truly offended by yours it was met as a hypo also I enjoy this debate i am having with you and i beleive we could become friends thanks for the debate Robert | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/22/2005 8:25:12 PM | those men died for my freedom my right to worship as i choose and to express anything i choose to express any any peacefull mater i choose This is ENTIRELY correct. See the difference? YOU can celebrate however you want. The government simply can't do it along with you to the exclusion of others, even if there are "only a few" in town.
(on a side note, throwing in soldier sacrifice is kind of a crummy way of trying to make it into a "how could you disagree with this" statement," and it's pretty irrelevant to the topic.)
as to govt establishing the plscement of decrorations on the court hoise lawn it is not govt making a law in order to place them there it is people in show of celebration placing them in there own free will and accord not in a govt decree **sigh**if you ever take the time to look into this, you'll understand. I'm not saying that it's good or that it's bad; it just is.
I enjoy this debate i am having with you and i beleive we could become friends thanks for the debate Robert ditto
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I don't agree that there is any need to change the "Christmas Season" to the Holiday season. And anyway, there is no gov't recognized "christmas season" that I'm aware of, so exactly what is it that the OP suggests the gov't wants to change? They certainly aren't going to legislate expression or somehow dictate what people call it. As far as taking the Christmas out of the Carol, it has become increasingly common to sing what are basically secular christmas carols (sort of an oxymoron, I know) which I don't have an issue with. Let them sing whatever they want; who am I to insist that the songs I want be sung.
When I was in school I remember we used to sing all sorts of christmas songs, throw in a song about a dreidel (seemed to be the same one every year) and call it good. These days, as areas outside of urban centers become more and more diverse, I personally think it's a good thing to respect other people's cultures by not excluding them. If you want your kids to sing Christian carols, send them to catholic school! (kidding.) And if that means no song about baby jesus, WHO CARES???!! Go home and sing one. Or two. Or one in the car on the way home!
Night, all! | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/22/2005 8:26:37 PM | | Ok...some of you sound like the world is going to end if a certain time of year is called the holiday season. (Which it is by the way.) Not everyone is Christian and yes I realize the majority of this continent is, but hey there are more people out there than you may realize practicing other forms of religion and I really do not see anything wrong with giving all religions some respect during the holiday season. Honestly, there are bigger things to worry about in the world than what to call how one celebrates the most materialistic time of year where we all spend a sh!t load of money. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/22/2005 8:38:47 PM | check to see when jesus was supposed to have been born.....
check history to see why the Christian Church put the Christs Mass when it did. It was not originally a birthday thing but it did subsume several pagan holy days.
Holy Day season does seem nicely inclusive.
Goverment can only do what you let them do. Pagans, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists and most other religions and spiritual paths have survived efforts to wipe them out
hey what would Jesus do? | |
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