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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/23/2005 1:52:06 PM | yammos:
those men laid down their lives for this freedom they endangerd their families lives there friends lives so i can see a christmas symbol on my repeat my courthouse square
Wrong. Completely wrong. Remarkably wrong. Couldn't be more wrong.
littlewin:
this is the very one point i will disagree with you on the most
those men died for my freedom my right to worship as i choose and to express anything i choose to express any any peacefull mater i choose in this case my friend you are wrong
as to govt establishing the plscement of decrorations on the court hoise lawn it is not govt making a law in order to place them there it is people in show of celebration placing them in there own free will and accord not in a govt decree(forgive the spelling)
please take no offence in my post im not truly offended by yours it was met as a hypo also I enjoy this debate i am having with you and i beleive we could become friends thanks for the debate Robert
"those men died for my freedom my right to worship as i choose and to express anything i choose to express any any peacefull mater i choose "
right
however a courthouse is not YOURS, the courthouse is OURS.
Noone is saying you can't put jesus on YOUR lawn... just not on OUR lawn.
putting a Jesus and Mary on the courthouse steps might honour YOUR faith but it insults MINE.
Putting SEASON'S GREETINS honours BOTH of our faiths.
Everyone has different beliefs... those men died for ALL of our beliefs and ALL of our freedoms.... to say they did it for YOU and those LIKE YOU alone... means yam-mos was DEAD ON RIGHT when he said "wrong, completely wrong, couldn't be more wrong".
Those that WRONGLY think taking down symbols of Jesus during Holiday season is an attack on their faith OR dishonouring their faith have NO UNDERSTANDING of freedom and put THEIR faith ABOVE all of the faiths that the "founding fathers" wanted to protect. Which is 100% against what they wanted.
Freedom for all means sometimes you comprimise. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/23/2005 3:23:07 PM | those men died for my freedom my right to worship as i choose and to express anything i choose to express any any peacefull mater i choose
This is ENTIRELY correct. See the difference? YOU can celebrate however you want. The government simply can't do it along with you to the exclusion of others, even if there are "only a few" in town.
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according to this view you cannot celebrate however you want. You can only celebrate as long as what you celebrate does not offend anothers religeon. Putting a religeous symbol on a public building or property does not mean the government is celebrating with you unless there is a government officer putting the religeous symbols up with you. It also is not excluding others as long as other people from other faiths are also free to put their religeous symbols up. If the building decoration is dominated by religeous symbols from only one faith. Than the problem is that their is lack of religeous diversity in the buildings decorations. The problem is not because the buliding has some religeous symbols on it. For those who think there is not enough room for a diversity of religeous symbols I think some imagination is called for. How about putting them on other buildings, erecting monuments, or other channels of communication to the public.
There are two important reasons for the first admendment.
1 To allow for freedom of expression
2 to allow the public a full range of ideas and thoughts
Demanding that religeon be kept private does not fullfill this second reason for the first admendment.
If we apply this opinion to writing we would than have to get rid of all public libraries because there is garenteed to be some book in those libraries that offends someone and the government has to either have only books that are not agaist anyone's religeon or have no books at all. Laws to protect freedom should result in a more inclusive atitude in society rather than a more exclusive one. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/23/2005 4:06:47 PM | Man, let me tell ya. I am so weary hearing about this. One group of people don't want Christmas, another doesn't want anything with Jesus Christ mentioned. Everybody's argument is different and they all take the stand that they are correct, whether it is Fundamentalist Christians that believe that people that are earth based and polytheistic (such as Wiccans)
are Satanic, to liberal ACLU card carrying Wiccans who believe that this country should have everythig generic because they are pagan vegetarian and manipulative.
Now that's not all Pagan wiccans, nor is it all Christians, but a select few of each Faith are brow beating the hell out of eachother and it's pissing the rest of us off that just want to enjoy Christmas, Kwanza or whatever we celebrate.
Ya know what I think, we should let all these radicals beat the hel out of eachother for one week televised on national Tv and see who's got the biggest fists and biggest mouth, and for thr rest of the year, have them under court ordered shut the hell up!
they'll probably not stop this crap until there is some law passed that forces people to keep their damn opinions to themselves.
Of course that would be an infringement of our right to free speech wouldn't it?
Of course the Free-speech-vegetarian-liberal-Pagans-for-Christ-that-believe-in-the-fair treatment-of-serial-killing-Hedge-Hogs are meeting next tuesday at the Bob's Soy Based Barbecue politically correct solar powered internet cafe.....
Anyone wanna go?
I'm bringing the beer and sausage!?!?!?!?
Zach | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/23/2005 5:07:21 PM | ViceGuy1 !!!!!
Are you SURE you don't wanna go?
It's DEER Sausage and CANADIAN Beer.......
aww come on.........
Don't wanna scare the politically acutely wrongly correct?
And to all the right-wing-republican-protestant-fundmentalist-close-minded-god-fearing opinionated-decide-for-me-what-I-should-think-and whether or not I should choose the right to life or abortion...
I stand up for the ability and right for you to believe whatever it is that makes you who you are and what makes you happy in your life.
Why? Even though it is not who I am, what I am about and what I believe in? Because free choice to believe what you want is what makes this society what it is.
I JUST don't think it's right for you to decide what I believe in, thats where you get your head all screwed up, but thats ok, we're ALL Gods children, it's just a few fools who think they can infringe on others beliefs and rights because they think there choices and beliefs are better and tastier.
****-em, it'll all work out in the end.....
Zach | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/23/2005 9:49:22 PM | | well said zach i like your thinking. whay do people think they have the right to ruin peoples celebrations i could care less who someone chooses to celebrate but dont try and stop me i have yet to see a goverment mandated manger scene in a courthouse square i see people useing their freedom of expression expressing it on public land just like the abortion rights and pro-life groups do weither it be a poster or hand held sign ot a manger scene both are a expression of belief on land that belongs to the public do we stop the anti abortion crowd from protesting because it might offend the christiansor pro-life people? do we say it cannot happen because it is proof the goverment the sponsers and supports other beliefs and ideas that someone may be offended about? of course not we have the right to free expression on public land.and it matters not who expresses it be it a gun control activist, a animal rights activist. or a public official on his own time of his own free will non mandated placing christmas symbols on the same public land. it owuld be like saying you may protest but only on your private property and not on public land which we all own. and furthermore I have alot better things to do with my time than worry over a plastic baby jesus laying in straw under a light on a court house lawn how about letting those of us who enjoy these kinda of thing enjoy them and you can stand with your protest signs right beside telling those who are enjoying this freedom of expression how wrong we are. ill be willing to bet people will look around you and your sign just to see the pretty display | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/23/2005 10:06:37 PM | I have alot better things to do with my time than worry over a plastic baby jesus laying in straw under a light on a court house lawn In reality, it seems like you are worrying about this more than most, to be honest. You worry that it's there, others worry that it's not. There's really no difference.
Personally, none of my celebrations are affected by this, and I encourage you all to not get so put off by it all that it ruins yours. That just doesn't make sense. Pretty display or no pretty display. (By the way, this:
ill be willing to bet people will look around you and your sign just to see the pretty display was obnoxious.)
A general statement, using "you" generally (ie directed at no one in particular):
The only thing that bugs me about this thread is the attitudes from some christians of "yeah everyone wants it, just not you!" (again, I'm using "you" generically). "Let us do what we want because we're the majority, no one cares what you think" and at the same time, "WAAAaaaaa... our rights are being violated."
Well, big news. No, they are not. You are factually incorrect about that. It doesn't matter what buzzwords you use or how you rationalize it, because you aren't the ones who interpret the constitution. And the interpretation that you're resisting was made a long long time ago. Rant and rave and it won't make a god damned bit of difference, you'll still be wrong. Talk yourself silly about what you believe to be a god damned infringement. It's not. Your rights aren't being violated, and you're losing the spirit of your own religion when you behave this way. You all rally together and pat eachother on the back and say, "yeah, poor us." Well grow the hell up. You've nothing to complain about; celebrate however you want without pushing it onto other people.
There is a misconception/stereotype that we (christians) are all obnoxious and pushy with our beliefs. Gee, I wonder why.
It's an embarassment.
Goodnight. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/23/2005 10:31:12 PM | regardless of what you may think and i do respect your views we know the courts do make mistake in their interpataion ie: seperate but equal rulings I simply disagree with the courts interpitations of the issue of church and state i beleive it is wrong as do many and i hope it will be over turned again my view but the display of these decorations is not I repeat not a goverment mandated display it is a free expression by indivduals and no one is limiting any views or expressions just because there is a menorah or a christmas symbol or a islamic cresent placed on public land does not I repeat does not establish a national religon. and to refuse it because it is a religous symbol is restricting the free expression there of i dont seem to remembering that term being elimatined from the constution nor stricken by that court back in the 1950's you cannot let one group speak post or debate a issue on public and not another that certanly would violate the 1st amendment.
calling my ideas buzz words do not make them anyless important and if you think a christmas decoration or the right to express christian beliefs is pushy or obnoxious and a embaressment then why do you call yourself a christian? not to be rude or offending just asking. As a christian I remember Jesus saying if you deny me here on earth tnen i will deny you before my father this is why i am so adamnet about this subject plus as a christian you are commanded by Jesus just before he assended into heaven to go Ye and teach the gospel you cant do that till you go where the people are and that is not in your or my front yard it is in public | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/24/2005 4:31:23 AM |
but the display of these decorations is not I repeat not a goverment mandated display No one said that it was. But that isn't the issue.
it is a free expression by indivduals I understand why you think this, but there are boundaries as to what the gov't can allow on gov't property
and no one is limiting any views or expressions just because there is a menorah or a christmas symbol or a islamic cresent placed on public land Sometimes they can exist there, that is right.
does not I repeat does not establish a national religon. That is true. But that is not the only issue here. You've said that you disagree with the interpretation of what the issues are. So if you want to have a discussion pretending that they don't apply, then that's one thing. But I don't know why you wouldn't want to work within the framework of reality.
and to refuse it because it is a religous symbol is restricting the free expression No it isn't. You keep repeating that like it will be true. You believe it to be, but you're wrong. What makes you think that you can do whatever you want simply because you are on gov't land? Gov't land is not all public, and even when it is public, there has to be equal access for all. Given your position, it is surprising that you don't have a concern about equal access.
there of i dont seem to remembering that term being elimatined from the constution nor stricken by that court back in the 1950's you cannot let one group speak post or debate a issue on public and not another that certanly would violate the 1st amendment. Sure, but what "group" is it that you think is getting access while you are not?
calling my ideas buzz words do not make them anyless important I did not suggest that your ideas were unimportant. I have never said that. But there's a difference between opinion and fact, and calling facts your "opinion" doesn't make them such. And you ARE using buzzwords and saying things that are concretely inaccurate. There's nothing wrong with me pointing that out.
and if you think a christmas decoration or the right to express christian beliefs is pushy or obnoxious and a embaressment then why do you call yourself a christian? Well, first of all, my religious beliefs do not center around, as you called them, plastic jesuses, they don't center around my civil rights, and they don't center around your behavior. I really don't understand your question. I would have the same beliefs even without ANY decorations. I would have the same beliefs even if I traveled to a land where I could not express them. And my beliefs are not changed by others who are pushy with theirs. Those would be shallow bases for spiritual beliefs, don't you think? Honestly now, are these the reasons that YOU call yourself a christian?
As a christian I remember Jesus saying if you deny me here on earth tnen i will deny you before my father this is why i am so adamnet about this subject. No offense, but I don't believe you. Because that would mean that you are concerned about the souls of the people who do not allow you to put a plastic jesus where ever you want to. And these postings certainly don't indicate that that is the case. That said, you also aren't being denied. This is where it gets embarassing again.
plus as a christian you are commanded by Jesus just before he assended into heaven to go Ye and teach the gospel you cant do that till you go where the people are and that is not in your or my front yard it is in public I thought we were talking about people demanding the right to put up "pretty displays" on gov't property at Christmas time. Now this is about evangelism? COME ON.
In all seriousness, you might want to consider moving to a country where the gov't recognizes and supports christianity. Meanwhile, we will be here allowing for all religions. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/24/2005 8:15:03 AM | it amaze's me how some people will defend thr right to wear a t-shirt with the word f*&k on it but will balk at any religous symbol placed on public land.( not talking about you Yams) but your last 2 statment have sumed up your misconceptions of me all in one. I belive everyone has the right to post whatever religous symbol they choose on any public land. i would never deny that to anyone. whereas you think i belive gov't should support and reconize christianity only. you are vastly mistaken. i think it should reconize all religon and all points of view as i have stated repeatdly in this thread. taking my words out of context and analyizeing them to make your point has lead you to this false belief of my words. I simply state the the gov't has no right to deny any i repeat any religous symbol on any public land where as it is a form of free speech. wither you agree or not. and to suggest I move to another country is ludicriss. your suggestions mandating that there be no posting of christian symbols is no different than the goverment mandating that they be posted either way you are sugestting and goverment mandating on a free expression issue. it is not the goverments place to make laws regarding free expression .free expression is protected regardless of who it offends.
No offense, but I don't believe you. Because that would mean that you are concerned about the souls of the people who do not allow you to put a plastic jesus where ever you want to. And these postings certainly don't indicate that that is the case. That said, you also aren't being denied. This is where it gets embarassing again.
and please dont put words in my mouth and try to twist them to make your point.
I do care about everyone souls and to make the suggestions in this quote are offensive
thought we were talking about people demanding the right to put up "pretty displays" on gov't property at Christmas time. Now this is about evangelism? COME ON.
symbols are part of evangelism and we all are commanded to do so who do you think he was talking to just the people in the upper room at the time? if that is the case then christianity should have died 2000 yrs ago and all of this would have been in vain. if you choose not to do this i respect that i think it is wrong but i respect that but then again we do have a free will and not doing it will not keep you out of heaven.
again i do appreciate the debate and i will have to agree to disagree with you it appears neither one of us will budge on this issue and i would be wrong to try and force you to as you would be wrong to do the same to me. this has been a very good tread I think both side have been equally presented here ever how spirited it may have been and to say in closing I love ya and no hard feelings Robert | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/24/2005 11:12:27 AM | The Bible clearly teaches that those who choose some other form of belief over the Bible and Christianity are doomed to a torturous, inescapable hell. The more fundamentalist Muslims say the same thing about the Quran and Islam, that if you do not submit to those teachings, you will not be forgiven of your sins by God, and will go to hell when you die. Most Holy-Book-based religions are similar in their exclusiveness. It reminds me of the popular adaptation of the Christmas song that goes, "Sinners roasting on an open fire....." hahaha .... isn't that just a hilarious thought??? Typical fundamentalist fodder.
These religions lay out numerous religious rules that are supposedly standards that God (Allah) expects everyone on earth to follow. The mindset toward someone who does not submit to THEIR particular religion's rules tends to be along the lines of: "My Goodness, he doesn't EVEN believe that following Jesus (the Bible) is the ONLY way to get to heaven!!? Incredible!! I mean, this is the religion I chose by defaut when I was a kid, or that my family and I were born into, so, that obviously means that anyone has been born into or chosen a different persuasion is separated from God and hell-bound!" That type of ignorant and arrogant attitude is, in my opinion, one of the world's biggest sources of discrimination, categorizing and rejecting others, and creating conflicts between people. Just look at history.
Having said that, I'm glad about any move by any government that steers away from the influence of "holy" books, and the conflicts around the world that these books create. If Christians could spend a few years living under a fundamentalist Muslim "holy-law" government, they would probably appreciate more the efforts by some of our leaders to REALLY keep church and state separate. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/24/2005 2:09:19 PM | Erm... I think some people are getting slightly off topic here.
I can't comment on the situation in the U.S. but here's an example
of the sort of thing happening here in UK:
Recently, a Public Library allowed local Muslims to use their premises to
commemorate and promote the Islamic festival of Ede. No problem... BUT...
... A few weeks later, the local Anglican requested use of the Library Notice Board
to let people know the dates of the Christmas Carol service. The Library's response?
"In a multi-faith society like Britain it would be wholly inappropriate to use a public service
to promote a religious event that may cause offensive to those of other Faiths."
Can anyone not see the utter contradiction and absurdity of this?!^^^
Now WHOM should our irritation at this double-standard be directed at?
The Muslims? Of course not!
They had every right to commemorate their festival on public property.
Moreover, not one of the many Muslims I know finds the openly religious celebration
of Christmas even remotely 'offensive'.
(Do you think they would've emigrated to a country where the Head of State is also
the Head of the Church if they did??)
In fact, most Muslims I know appreciate the fact that the societies they're from are
far less tolerant of Non-Islamic Faiths than Britain is of Non-Christian Faiths.
As for the idea of Non-Muslims in Muslim countries taking 'offence' to expressions of Islam...
well... that would just be total anathema to them!
So WHO exactly is enforcing these sorts of double-standards?
As I mentioned before, the MP's and Council Bureaucrats making these sort of absurd
judgements are nearly always White Anglo-Saxons.
And it is my contention (as an ethnic minority myself) that in reality, they couldn't care less
about people of minority faiths. In fact they are slandering them by using the term
"minorities" to express their own predujices.
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/24/2005 3:51:41 PM | I have a question for both of you, and your debate is EXTREMELY heated, and I'm enjoying it to no end.
Jalan, did remind both of you that your debate is getting a bit off topic because the issue is more about making religious holidays such as Christmas more generic to be less "offensive" to other faiths/religions.
So, here's my statement, and then my question. It is a historical fact that when the seperation of church and state fails on an unprecedented level (which means that the UK is indemnified in this because they do a BLOODY good job of "trying" to step up and be fair, and sometimes failing anyway) that when church and state are unified, other faiths and religions suffer sometimes to the point that the rights of humanity are denied and the individuals are killed for how they worship. My examples are clear, do not waste my time pointing out extremities: China (religion absorbed into the body politic) Iran (Muslim Islamic law is the only credence allowed, all others are deported, killed, imprisoned, tortured, or illegalized)
No need to go further, yes they are extreme examples, but examples none the less.
Now to my question, both of you can brow beat eachother to death about fundamentalist this and Jesus that, but what if the individual who is standing by the wayside of your debate believes that the seperation of church and state and the "diluting" of Religious holidays are two seperate issues? You see gentleman, I am a Pagan, more specifially a Druid and have been all my life! I don't believe it is neccessary to call the holidays anything different. I LIKE going to my Christian friends and family members Christmas eve service, it's beautiful! I like the Carols. But, more specifically, the holiday itself and the rhetoric behind it does NOT offend me. Actually, it doesn't offend most Pagans I know. There are a very rare few radical pagans who believe that Christianity is "out to get them" which I believe to be bullsh*t. THEY are the ones along with their atheist buddies at the ACLU who are trying to strip you of your holidays and the labels behind them.
Who did this to your holiday? Actually guys, I hate to remind you, but it is one splinter group within the fabric of Christianity that did it. Radical Pentacostal fundamentalist protestant Christians who believe that anyone who is not of their faith is a satanist, and is going to hell. Which means that they think I'm a satanist, along with buddhists, muslims, voudon, wiccan, moonies, sufi's, hindu's, rastafarians, sihks etc, you get the idea.
We have a joke that we mumble about periodically, that there are 16 states in the United States of America that are going to straight to hell because most of the people in those states believe that everyone is going to hell. When in truth they are the greatest sinners zealots and freaks that walk the planet. Why? because they read the bible, go to church on sundays (or wednesday and Sunday if your a Baptist) and do the one thing that the Good Book says for them NOT to do.
JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED....
Any Christian that believes that their faith is the CORRECT faith and that everyone else who believes differently is bad evil or going to hell is an idiot and a puke drinking moron who should be dipped in sh*t and thrown in front of a train.
How STUPID can you get? We've evolved 3000 years as a culture only to still have people that think the earth was created in 6 days and that they are better than anyone else?
I personally believe that if Jesus Christ came back he would be so disapointed at his followers he would retire a buddhist and live in jamaica.
Now, the seperation of church and state is not only valid, it is critical to make an unbiased platform. Fair treatment of ALL religious sectors of society is a reasonable and acceptable balance.
But, just because the government should be responsible for being fair to all who worship, no matter how they worship, does not mean that Christians should be stripped of their right to display their Mangers and their crosses. Or the Jews a Menorah, Or Wiccans a Pentacle. I have never had any problem with anything a good christian family or Jewish family or Wiccan family did, whether they worked as the mayor of a town or the postal worker living next door to me.
It is a matter of two radical groups inside two religious groups bashing the crap out of eachother and it should really stop.
In the end guys, who cares what is on the govt steps? Is it THAT important that YOUR faith is the one that is shown? and if so why? do you actually think your faith is better than others? we're back to the rant listed above if thats the case, ya know, smelling like crap hit by train?
If the Pagans knew more about Jesus Christ, and the Fundamentalists knew more about the Goddess and the Pagan Gods, and if they took the time to realize how similiar they truly are.....
We'd all be having ham the day after Christmas singing "Jingle Bells for the Goddess, Jesus is a neat guy!"
Zach | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/25/2005 7:58:02 AM | ^^^Great post Zach. Just remind the b*a*s*t*a*r*d*s that it was the Pagans that accomodated Christianity, or perhaps the other way around. Christ was born in the Spring. We celebrate it around the winter Solstice with a tree becasue that was the great Pagan tradition and Festival. I love the reaction I get when they realize how much their faith has manipulated reality to suit themselves. So tell them they are nothing without you man.  | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/25/2005 11:03:22 AM | Double Cabin, it takes more effort and blood sweat and tears from a good Pagan to make the Christians realize we're not against them and we would break bread with them, than it is to convince them we're not Satanic. MOst of thos that think we are, are freaky and weird anyway.
They celebrate our holidays and they don't even know it.
but thats ok. I just want them to understand, it does not matter how you worship/pray/meditate/mantra to God/Goddess/pantheon......
It is the fact that we DO that is right, and that we WILL that we should, and that we ARE all equal under the eyes of God.
I could care less who calls what holiday what on who's courthouse steps on what holiday....
get over it people....
Zach | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/25/2005 11:31:38 AM | | it's not a question of when Christ was born the only ones who really know were his family. it is that we are celebrating his birth and I have no problem celebrating any holiday. I think their all are great. I say to all detractors hey leave it alone its worked fine for years. people spread joy and kindness that time of year (even though it should be all year) and what is harmful about that? if muslims want to have there call to prayer on goverment property than go for it it is theirs too. if anyone want to have any form of religous expression there go for it. if an athiest wants to protest it there go for it. we all paid for it it is ours. why must everything be a conflict? how about just minding our own bussiness for a change and quit worring over if this is going to hurt someones feelings why not just be good to everyone and stop saying because i disagree with you then you are wrong. what ever happend to respecting others views without trying to destroying traditions. For all my life I've gone downtown to see all the lights and decorations and as parent ive taken my children to see them and soon i will take my grandchild and what a joy it will be to see the pretty lights. but when i hear that a town has outlawed the use of the red and green colors during this time of yr on its govt property i start to get sad or when i just learned that the state of illinois forbids it workers to say merry christmas while on the job i get angryno it appears when you are on the job in illinois you have no freedom of speech or when i hear that a public libary in washington state for bid the putting up of a christmas tree i wondered( public outcry was such they out it back up) Why does it have to be this way. I dont care how a person chooses to or not celebrate a holiday I want him too in his own way and to have the time of his life doing it and i want each and everybody in this forum to have the time of their lives too but please please please don't tell people they cant because it might offend someone | |
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grog27
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Joined: 2/25/2005
Msg: 70 | |
| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/25/2005 1:06:46 PM | | It all comes down to mutual respect and plain old common sense. You don't foster respect for one religion by suppressing another religion's right to celebrate. The only thing that does is promote resentment. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/25/2005 2:38:43 PM |
It all comes down to mutual respect and plain old common sense. You don't foster respect for one religion by suppressing another religion's right to celebrate. The only thing that does is promote resentment.
Thank you that sums it up best. if i had thought of that my fingers would not have been so sore from typing lol Thanks Grog | |
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grog27
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Joined: 2/25/2005
Msg: 73 | |
| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/25/2005 3:31:47 PM | "We know from the stars positioning that Christ was born in the Spring, do we not Littlewin?"
Actually, I've even heard some theories stating that He was born sometime in July.
AND four years EARLIER than previously thought. (In which case, that library book is w-a-a-a-y overdue, since it's really 2009!!)
Hey!! Christmas in July!! What a concept!!
(What? It's been done? @#$!@!!! ) | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/25/2005 5:16:02 PM |
You don't foster respect for one religion by suppressing another religion's right to celebrate. The only thing that does is promote resentment. Your definition of suppression is somewhat off, legally and practically. Legally, you can pretend that it is suppression all you want, but legally it's not. Practically, if your beliefs or celebrations are impacted/muted by not being able to gather round a plastic jesus on public/gov't property, then I would encourage you to examine why. Seriously. That isn't what this is about. Set up a plastic baby on your lawn. In your livingroom. In your bathtub. Personally, I don't allow myself to feel put-upon because I can't go downtown, stare at a plastic doll, and say "oh, look at the pretty baby." To insist that that somehow supresses my right to practice my religion would make me feel very shallow. I'M NOT CALLING ANYONE SHALLOW. It's just how I would personally feel about making this argument.
No offense to anyone, but I really believe that, whether people are even conscious of it or not, they are concocting arguments that are really nonsensical in order to insist on some perceived right that JUST ISN'T THERE. Rights are human constructions, and the humans running the show in this regard have not constructed this right that you lament. And in terms of what actually exists, it doesn't matter if you disagree. It would make sense to me if people put forth arguments/reasons why such a right SHOULD be recognized, but this game of pretend is just absolutely bizarre. Seriously.
It's like saying that you have a right to make slanderous statements about someone because it's "freedom of expression." You can say that all you want, but it simply isn't true. Here, too, it WOULD make sense to discuss why we SHOULD have a right to make slanderous statements (if you think we should have freedom of expression in that area.) But why in the world would one have a conversation insisting that we DO have that right?! Bizarre to me. Seriously bizarre. The only difference between this example and the issue at hand is because there is inherent tension between the establishment clause and the free exercise clause. But the jury isn't out anymore, boys. The question has been answered. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 10/25/2005 5:59:51 PM | What is the date for the birth of Christ?
Christ was Born in the Fall During the Feast of Tabernacles
One viewpoint which would seem to have some good arguments, places His birth in the fall, probably at the time of the Feast of Tabernacles. The basic arguments for this position are as follows:
Jesus was crucified at the time of the Passover, which is in spring (John 18:39). If we figure His public ministry lasted precisely three and a half years, this would place the beginning of His ministry in the fall of the year. At that time he "was about thirty years old" (Luke 3:23; compare with Numbers 4:3, 47) -- and so either on (or close to) His thirtieth birthday -- indicating His birth was in the fall.
Another point of this argument is based on the time of Zacharias' Temple ministry. There were 24 divisions or courses of priests that ministered (1 Chronicles 24:7-19). According to Josephus, each course ministered "eight days, from sabbath to sabbath" (Antiquities of the Jews, Book 7, 14:7; compare with 2 Chronicles 23:8). Zacharias, who belonged "to the priestly division of Abijah" (Luke 1:5, 8), would have been the eighth in line to serve. Assuming that the first course started serving in the first (Jewish) month, in early spring, Zacharias' turn would have come in the early part of June.
It was at this time, "when Zechariah's division was on duty and he was serving as priest before God" (Luke 1:8), that an angel revealed he would have a son, despite his advanced age. Following his time of ministry, he returned back to his home in the hill country and his wife Elizabeth conceived. By adding nine months, this would place the birth of John the Baptist in the early spring of the year. Since Jesus was born six months after John (Luke 1:24-26, 36), this would place His birth in the fall.
At the time Jesus was born, the KJV states Joseph and Mary had gone to Bethlehem to be taxed (Luke 2:1-5). The fall season, following harvest time, would have been a logical time for people to do this. Fall was also the time of the Feast of Tabernacles, which could explain why Mary went with Joseph -- to attend the feast, as they did together on later occasions (compare with Luke 2:41).
Editor's Note: Luke 2:1-5 (NIV) states that Caesar had issued a decree for a census, and not for a tax. While the KJV uses the word “taxed,” there is a marginal note stating that the Greek word actually means “enrolled.” Thus we understand the “enrollment” (or “census”) at Bethlehem was for the purpose of future taxation, but it was not the event when the tax was actually rendered.
This could explain why "there was no room for them in the inn" at Bethlehem. During the feasts, vast throngs of people would not only fill Jerusalem, but the surrounding towns also, including Bethlehem, which was only five miles away.
If Jesus was born at the time of the Feast of Tabernacles, it would harmonize well with John's statement: "... The Word was made flesh, and dwelt ["tabernacled"] among us" (John 1:14). The Greek word for "dwelt" here, is closely related to the word translated "tabernacle" (see Strong's Concordance, #G4634, #G4637).
These are the primary reasons that many who hold an anti-Christmas theology, have accepted the time of the Feast of Tabernacles, in the fall of the year, as the most likely time for Jesus's birth.
Hope it helped................. MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!! (JUST IN CASE i DON'T GET TO SAY IT-SOMEDAY) | |
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I usually have to work during the Christmas holidays!
