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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/21/2006 8:45:07 PM | | Christianity is not limited to caucasians. Each and every race is represented. God is the Creator of us all. Big difference in protecting religious rights and forming groups that exclude ppl that are not of a certain race. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/21/2006 9:00:33 PM |
Christianity is not limited to caucasians. Each and every race is represented. God is the Creator of us all. Big difference in protecting religious rights and forming groups that exclude ppl that are not of a certain race.
I agree totally. That part was in reference to the other poster's re' on the African noel.
But, to be truthful, the caucasian race is about pfffttt anyway in America due to mixed races..which, btw, I have zero problem with - before anyone jumps on it. It will get to the point of being moot to have the word 'caucasian' on applications, etc. Again, which would be fine by me... Just as long as no specific race is given 'rights' over anyone (regardless of race/religion) else.
God creates equal. Mankind divides. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 103 | |
| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/21/2006 9:13:53 PM | Interesting, "Happy Holidays" offensive?
It excludes no one.... and includes all faiths, including Christians.
....So much for "peace on Earth and good will to all mankind"
...And the notion of the ACLU not defending Christians is laughable, ...do a search of ACLU court cases and you'll see that this is a BS assumption.
What is most ironic is that a great many of the Christmas traditions are derived from the habit of co-opting non-Christian rituals and their trappings in order to absorb other religion's followers more efficiantly....
And for those who scoff at "new" traditions and songs, etc. ....Are we to only consider the traditions and songs from your own childhood? Whose childhood memories hold the correct songs? What's the cutoff date for submitting any songs?
A tree is removed and then replaced from a public airport in Seattle, a tree is moved in a courthouse, in the GTA, not removed, a kid sings a song you haven't heard before, another human being wishes you generic happyness?????
And now "they" are stealing Christmas?
Take a page from Dr. Suess, .....when the  tried to steal Christmas, ...what did all the Whos in Whoville do the next morning, even little Cindy Lu Who?
Does it occure to anybody that many who used to decry the commercialization of Christmas into an orgy of consumerism, ...are the same folks complaining about the perceived loss of the biggest symbols of this orgy in public places?
People! ....Even the cartoons know the "true meaning", ...the time to be worried is when they stop the endless reruns of Merry Christmas Charlie Brown, and replace them with cartoons from other holidays...
Can you imagine?
The Gollem Who Stole Hanukkah? The Jinn Who Stole Eid? The Durga Who Stole Diwali?
....better check your TV guides.
Speaking of Christmas and TV, ...
I'm offended that there's never anything decent to watch on late-night TV on the 24th.
But, to be truthful, the caucasian race is about pfffttt anyway in America
According to recent census stats 80.4% as of 2004, ...worthy of victimhood? | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/21/2006 9:17:53 PM | how could we demand if no one really puts efforts into it? how many ppl complain about this situation but doesn't really stand up and demand all equal rights...i cant barge into my childs school and say "u know what, if ur not gonna continue the tradition with my daughter the i was taught in school , then she's just not gonna participate at all." i will look like a hater on other religions. but i must note, i am not religious i was not brought up christian i don't have a religion. BUT christmas is christmas, the way it's always been, the way i have always know it to be...and now i have my daughter who will not know what i know unless i just teach it to her myself. which is fine but its not ok to just teach them what i witnessed yesterday.
if ppl feel so strongly about this like i do we need to stand up for ourselves....or we're just gonna bumped down to nothing. and that is my opinion. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/21/2006 9:23:45 PM | | there is nothing wrong with including "new" songs from different religions, but do not exclude the originals...why not have the WHOLE school perform instead of a few classes and combine them all. why just sing an african song or have a play with asian instruments i dont know what else was in the play cuz i walked out on it, but still. i heard nothing that sounded like christmas | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 106 | |
| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/21/2006 9:26:13 PM |
how could we demand if no one really puts efforts into it? how many ppl complain about this situation but doesn't really stand up and demand all equal rights...i cant barge into my childs school and say "u know what, if ur not gonna continue the tradition with my daughter the i was taught in school , then she's just not gonna participate at all." i will look like a hater on other religions.
Probably not, ...but they may take note that your problem makes littles sense.
but i must note, i am not religious i was not brought up christian i don't have a religion.
This part is the most puzzling of all...
BUT christmas is christmas, the way it's always been, the way i have always know it to be...and now i have my daughter who will not know what i know unless i just teach it to her myself.
Do you really think it was the same in your mother's time, in your mother's mother's time?
Really?
which is fine but its not ok to just teach them what i witnessed yesterday.
.........?
"u know what, if ur not gonna continue the tradition with my daughter the i was taught in school , then she's just not gonna participate at all."
What years did you go to school, and where? So we can pinpoint the acceptable "traditions", and exclude those that are too old, too new, and/or from the wrong parts of the world?
there is nothing wrong with including "new" songs from different religions, but do not exclude the originals...why not have the WHOLE school perform instead of a few classes and combine them all. why just sing an african song or have a play with asian instruments
Why didn't you ask, why, ...for that matter if it was that important to you, ..where were you when they planned it?
i dont know what else was in the play cuz i walked out on it, but still. i heard nothing that sounded like christmas
Do you realize how this sounds? | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/21/2006 9:41:40 PM | the mid 80's,early 90's i don't need u to pinpoint anything for me....i know what MY tradition and what was taught in school, and then...there were no problems or offensive attitudes. if what we do in canada is wrong in other parts of the world, well thats too bad we're not in other parts of the world.
i didn't ask, i wish i would have....never would i have thought that it would be all other religions but. but i know for next time...
and yes i know how that sounds. i was pissed off so i walked out on it. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 108 | |
| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/21/2006 9:47:14 PM | This isn't a religious issue, it seems like you are mourning your own pop culture nostalgia.
Culture evolves, it changes, .....without this nifty feature?
Culture dies.
if what we do in canada is wrong in other parts of the world, well thats too bad we're not in other parts of the world.
What we "do" in Canada is called multi-culturalism, we are unique in the world for this, in fact ....to have things the way you want them may mean leaving this country.
never would i have thought that it would be all other religions but.
I thought you weren't religious?
and yes i know how that sounds. i was pissed off so i walked out on it.
I was talking about the not knowing what happened after you walked out but not likeing it anyway. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/21/2006 9:47:23 PM | I would think they would be to busy screwing up the world to worry about the tradition of Christmas. We still have the right to speak freely so I will continue to say MERRY CHRISTMAS.This is still my country. I was born here and I don't intend to change what I have been doing all my life for people from another country. They can celebrate the way they want. I have no objections to their beliefs but exclude me from them. Don't come here whinning about our culture. If you don't like our way of celebrating Christmas you have the right to go back where you come from. No one is going to stop you from practicing your beliefs or your right to leave.Enough said.  to all. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/21/2006 10:10:28 PM | and that is what i am doing, SPEAKING FREELY
i know things change geez, blah blah blah.......but things dont change COMPLETELY
WOW!!!!! i know we live in a multi-cultural city but that does not mean we only do what they're happy with.....its not all bout them.
and u know what, yea i dont have a religion who cares....i was born and raised here celebrating the same holiday the same way as everyone else has in this country....that doesn't mean i cant have my say in what i think is wrong.
and if u can't understand what i'm saying, oh well, we can go on all night with this. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 111 | |
| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/21/2006 10:10:52 PM | I would think they would be to busy screwing up the world to worry about the tradition of Christmas.
They?
We still have the right to speak freely so I will continue to say MERRY CHRISTMAS.
Nobody is stopping you.
This is still my country.
And ONLY your country?
I was born here and I don't intend to change what I have been doing all my life for people from another country.
What of those born in the same country as you, but ....may be different?
They can celebrate the way they want. I have no objections to their beliefs but exclude me from them.
Um, ....isn't this what "they" are saying too?
Hmmm?
Don't come here whinning about our culture.
Check this thread for example, ....for the source of most of the "whining".
If you don't like our way of celebrating Christmas you have the right to go back where you come from.
...peace on Earth
No one is going to stop you from practicing your beliefs or your right to leave.Enough said.
Good will to all mankind.
WOW!!!!! i know we live in a multi-cultural city but that does not mean we only do what they're happy with.....its not about all them.....
Them?
and u know what, yea i dont have a religion who cares...
You do, this is what's puzzling, it's not the fear of losing a religious tradition, ...it's your daughter experiencing a culture relevent to her time, not yours that scares you, ....
.i was born and raised here celebrating the same holiday the same way as everyone else has in this country...
Everybody that went to your school when you did, I went to elementary school in the '60s, it was probably different too.
.that doesn't mean i cant have my say in what i think is wrong.
By the same token, others can note the flaws in reasoning.
and if u can't understand what i'm saying, oh well, we can go on all night with this.
I understand what you are saying, I'm just pointing out that much of it is contradictory, ...and somewhat self-concerned.
Did your daughter enjoy herself up until the point you stormed out? | |
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e-wok
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Joined: 9/25/2006
Msg: 112 | |
| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/21/2006 10:26:06 PM | ....but I don't get Holidays!! Why do some people assume that?
2 days does not make for a Holiday especially when I have to return
on a Saturday 23rd....after that it's Monday and Tuesday off.
It'll be better if its: happy couple o' days off.......'cause, who we fooling
about this "holiday" talk. I ain't goin' to Cancun with that!
The Gollem Who Stole Hanukkah? The Jinn Who Stole Eid? The Durga Who Stole Diwali?
....better check your TV guides.
Ahhhh...that's so funny.
A tree is removed and then replaced from a public airport in Seattle, a tree is moved in a courthouse, in the GTA, not removed, a kid sings a song you haven't heard before, another human being wishes you generic happyness?????
You forgot about the kid who was offended by the bus driver wearing a
Santa hat and complained to his boss to take it off. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/21/2006 10:37:00 PM | Here is Australia we say Merry Christmas or Happy Christmas. Yesterday at work in the elevator a male was talking to me obviously from the States and as he walked out of the elevator he said to me "happy holiday."
Now if he was still in the elevator I would have said that here in Australia we do not say Happy holidays and we are still in tradition with Happy Christmas. Happy Holidays does not mean a thing .. we are a nation of making sure that our holidays are happy. We work and live to have holidays. It's our favourite past time. There is no reason to remind anyone to be happy during the holidays, we are happy, that is a given whenever there are holidays.
As for all other cultures and religion I attended a multi cultural function with women from all nations, including african, indian, muslin, etc. etc. They joined together and celebrated an Australian Christmas and included in the Christmas Party was music and dance from all over the world. With each song that was played we all danced their traditional dance.
That function was one of the best functions I have ever attended, to see Muslin women dance the trantalla (italian dance), to see Australian women dance tradition middle eastern dance was the best Christmas gift I could have had.
I dont know what the fuss is all about on this thread, but no one else seems to have a problem with Christmas except the minority of are not flexible enough in their ways of thinking that would include ALL cultures celebrating EACH OTHERS festivities.
Merry Christmas from Oz....
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/21/2006 10:44:37 PM | lemme put it this way, i don't like the way this world has become, i don't like or want to change the way i do things just to make someone, whoever it may be not to feel offended. and i know i don't have to, but finally i can come out somewhere and say f u, u don't like too bad.
but seriously whats gonna be next, ban christmas all together, or ban a certain something that has been around for years just to make one or more group of ppl happy?
like with this who gay marriage harper wanting to reopen it jus because it's supposed to be this way. but thats another topic.
i am not against learning about different cultures, i'm against it only being about those cultures. my mother was in school in the 60's and a mother i talk with from our kids school and she tells me the same thing.....it has all changed. some schools don't even have christmas concerts.....this is what i'm talking about. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/21/2006 10:44:51 PM | Along time ago the pegans, {the origanal tribes} who worshiped there false gods finally saw the light and choose of there own free will to convert, for reasons that only christians can exsplain.
It was only after emormous pressure from the pegan tribes did the Emperor Constantine, agree to worship one god.{Except the jews, but i dont see the jews demanding anything on the followers of Christmas.}so this new revolution being created for a happy Holiday campain is not there doing, so it must be caused by once again the {origanal tribes}.
Now having said all this , I do not find it completly ironic,or am I shocked , but yet understandable,seeings how we let these people freely immigrate to our new land, The NORTH AMERICAN CULTURE is being corrupted by both politics and people that cannot even get along well in there own home lands, thats why they come here.silly.
& we are still argueing today, with the same people that we argued with 2000 years ago.they were not happy then ,and they are not happy now.and they were the ones that wrote the bible.
So for those who ive lost in all this jibber jabber, let me give you a clue,
Da Vinci wasnt wrong, she lie beneath the stars. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/21/2006 10:56:33 PM | It offends me too,you may say there are greater problems to worry about,but no there are not,this is a closer move to communism and Nazism,the Democrats love doing this but they are taking away some peoples free-speech.Communism is not dead,it's alive and doing well in the Democratic party,Democrats are hypocrites and hate everything that made America great,so if you love America,wake up,this is no time to be sleeping,
And Islam has declared war on America.
Merry Christmas. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 117 | |
| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/21/2006 10:56:52 PM | Imagine if the first Christmas was as xenophobic.
The Magi, ...being from far away places, ...would have been turned away with their frankincense, myrrh, and gold.
....for being "those" people not from "here".
But wait, ...Mary and Joseph weren't from Bethlehem either....
So much for making the coming together of different people from distant places a part of Christmas.
....Charming.
And Islam has declared war on America.
Utter nonsense.
Oh well, 'tis the season to be, ....hateful it seems. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/21/2006 10:57:08 PM | Maybe it would be nice instead of saying the Christmas Season to the Holiday Season. That way this time of year could mean different things to different people. People of no religious faith could look at this time of year as simply a time to share the love of family and friends with each other, and religious people could have their religious outlook. I think that would be a nice thing. Everyone would have a reason for this time of year to be a little more special. Sorry tired, I know what I'm trying to say it's just not coming out right. lol
As a Christian changing the name of the season, or preventing displays of my faith on government property isn't going to change the meaning of the season for me. No one is trying to say I can't celebrate Christmas, have my religious beliefs. To say Merry Christmas to a person you don't know doesnt make much sense because you don't know that persons religious beliefs, or if they have religious beliefs. Happy Holidays seems like a good way to wish people happiness at this time of year.
I would hate to see the Christmas tree or the lights not be allowed, I think they add to the beauty of the season. Maybe we could change the name to a Holiday Tree and Holiday lights, that shouldn't cause hard feelings to anyone. Candy canes, snowmen, things that have no religious meaning would allow everyone to enjoy the season. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/21/2006 11:07:37 PM | To fully debate this issue of Merry Christmas versus Happy Holidays, we need to examine the political landscape.
It all boils down to 'votes'. I'm not picking on the Democrats...but, it is their party who is 'known' for it's push for 'equality' for minorities. That's nothing new.. it's mainstream knowledge.
Once this foundation was laid, it has snowballed to become ever more inclusive of other stuff. The rights of all religions (except Christianity). Why? Because the other religions do not (in their eyes) threaten the separation of state and church. Since Christianity is the main religion here in the USA, there has been a move to remove it's importance because it is such a strong force to reckon with.
This all ties in..so just bear with me.
cigarette smoking bans... now, bans for wood burning fireplaces in homes and businesses.
the word 'God' - pledge of allegiance being banned in schools.... now, no ten commandments allowed in courts. The swearing on a bible will be next.
Jesus was born (as best as historical accounts can determine) probably sometime in Aug - Oct.. during tax season since Mary and Joseph was on their way to pay taxes when she went into labor.
The celebration in December was a pagan holiday... when the Christians were under heavy persecution, they integrated their worship of the birth of Jesus with the pagan Winter/Dec. festival...so as to stay as undetected as possible to avoid death.
Christmas evolved...
Now, the political landscape is strewn with the need to get votes in order to be elected to Congress/Presidency by any party other than Republican because... the Republicans carry the Christian votes for the most part. Or, maybe a better way to say it is... the Democrats have more agnostics and/or non religious classifications supporting them.
I leave the summation to your interpretation. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 120 | |
| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/21/2006 11:14:16 PM | Once this foundation was laid, it has snowballed to become ever more inclusive of other stuff. The rights of all religions (except Christianity).
Cite?
the word 'God' - pledge of allegiance
Interesting, ...speaking of co-opted traditions, the word "God" wasn't even IN the original P of A., the writer of which was an avowed socialist.
The celebration in December was a pagan holiday... when the Christians were under heavy persecution, they integrated their worship of the birth of Jesus with the pagan Winter/Dec. festival...so as to stay as undetected as possible to avoid death.
Christians being persecuted led to Christmas being moved to Yule?
Cite?
Now, the political landscape is strewn with the need to get votes in order to be elected to Congress/Presidency by any party other than Republican because... the Republicans carry the Christian votes for the most part. Or, maybe a better way to say it is... the Democrats have more agnostics and/or non religious classifications supporting them.
Indeed, how constitutional of them.
....Very Founding Fatherish. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/21/2006 11:41:46 PM | Self Annihilation...............
The turn of history and there doesn't seem to be anything we can do to prevent loosing our identity when those in power are so keen to give it away.
Armageddon perhaps it is closer than we realise............... | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/21/2006 11:47:51 PM | Links I found. The way I learned of it was in College during my studies.
http://de.essortment.com/christmaspagan_rece.htm
Pledge of Allegiance link. The original author was a Christian Socialist.
http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm
There's a couple of links/cites as requested. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 123 | |
| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/21/2006 11:59:41 PM | In 350, Pope Julius I declared that Christ’s birth would be celebrated on December 25. There is little doubt that he was trying to make it as painless as possible for pagan Romans (who remained a majority at that time) to convert to Christianity. The new religion went down a bit easier, knowing that their feasts would not be taken away from them.
This sounds more like my description than yours.
"What is most ironic is that a great many of the Christmas traditions are derived from the habit of co-opting non-Christian rituals and their trappings in order to absorb other religion's followers more efficiantly...."
As opposed to:
"When the Christians were under heavy persecution, they integrated their worship of the birth of Jesus with the pagan Winter/Dec. festival...so as to stay as undetected as possible to avoid death."
As for the P of O -
'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.'
No "God"
The burning question though, nothing yet to substantiate:
Once this foundation was laid, it has snowballed to become ever more inclusive of other stuff. The rights of all religions (except Christianity).
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/22/2006 12:14:06 AM | I will defer to the moderator Late.
If you feel your descriptions are more suitable than my words, then, so be it. I consider it nic picking...since I provided links as you requested and it's all in one's interpretation of 'wording' 'thought process'.
For you to say your 'descriptive' better meets a quote's criteria, how can I debate that? I won't. That is a matter of opinion. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 125 | |
| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/22/2006 12:31:00 AM | Nice deflection, but I don't moderate in threads I contribute to, moderators recuse themselves, so what ever you're trying to imply is nothing more than "poisoning the well" an ad hominem fallacy.
Not exactly honest discourse, let alone debate.
If you feel your descriptions are more suitable than my words, then, so be it. I consider it nic picking...since I provided links as you requested and it's all in one's interpretation of 'wording' 'thought process'.
Actually it was the "persecution" part I took issue with. re: Christmas Traditions
Then, ...and now.
I didn't see it in the cite, "There is little doubt that he was trying to make it as painless as possible for pagan Romans (who remained a majority at that time) to convert to Christianity."
Out of deception, not out of being "persecuted".
Much the same as:
We need a Civil Liberties Union for our now minority caucasian christian sect.
When as of 2002, the population breakdown is:
Religion: Christian 78% other 10%, none 10%, Jewish 1%
Race: According to recent census stats 80.4% caucasian as of 2004
For you to say your 'descriptive' better meets a quote's criteria, how can I debate that? I won't. That is a matter of opinion.
Not quite, actually it's a fallacy known as ignoratio elenchi, ...irrelevant conclusion = your proof, proved my point, not yours.
Some are trying to play the victim here, ....the facts don't bear this out. | |
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