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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/22/2006 12:38:03 AM | Jesus was born (as best as historical accounts can determine) probably sometime in Aug - Oct.. during tax season since Mary and Joseph was on their way to pay taxes when she went into labor.
I disagree. (IMO)
An astrologer, whose name i dont recall. ( i'll try and google at some time)
Claims from his interpretations of events in the bible.
His conclusion is April 8th to be the birthdate of Jesus.
(who knows about the exact date, but i like his conclusions about the month)
Jesus was an Aries.
The sign of the lamb.
The lamb of god.
(Maybe mary and joseph had a longer trip going to pay taxes.) | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/22/2006 12:54:52 AM |
I disagree. (IMO)
An astrologer, whose name i dont recall. ( i'll try and google at some time)
Claims from his interpretations of events in the bible.
His conclusion is April 8th to be the birthdate of Jesus.
That would be appreciated because I honestly would like to have the reference since I've not seen it to my recollection. Thanks in advance and please do post it.
Late,
I'll be honest and as upfront as possible.
First, I used the word 'moderator' because a few of my posts have disappeared while the person and his posts actually doing the 'off topic' and/or bashing was left on. NOT referencing you on that account. I guess my opponent took his 'griefs' to another moderator then.
I feel I debate the issues, don't bash and don't mind providing links. I don't back off when I feel strongly on something and I do feel you were nic picking.
I didn't expect to have every teeny tiny thing picked apart when I began participating in these forums. I expected debates, to disagree, etc.
But, it's almost to the point of 'link versus link' since there can be references to support both sides of any issue... found on the internet.
I'm sure I can find links which show the Christians were persecuted and hid behind several pagan holidays to celebrate their beliefs. The links are there for the 'persecution' process. I'm not being a 'oh poor me' on this. I honestly try to state what history has provided thus far. And, truthfully, most stuff I say is turned around and made snide of by certain Posters.
You are intelligent and you know it goes on. No biggie. I just wish I could debate with ya'll on 'Issues' not whose interpretation is more in sync with whatever quote has been pulled. I'm sure I could counter your counter which was countered before that one. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/22/2006 1:09:54 AM | Has Politically correctness gone mad ?? Its driving me up the wall. ? Do what you want
I understand were most of you are coming from and respect everything that your saying , I go out with other people, we enjoy ourselves all the year round, I am going down the pub today with others at lunch time, but I ask this.
I hear people say put Christ back into Christmas and celebrate Christs birth. Was it ever there ? I believe there is a God, like many people,, I am not Muslin or Jew.
But.. I bet any of you £200 for a charity of you choice. Can anyone tell me where it states in the Bible that we should Celebrate Christmas. Or celebrate the exact date, birth of Christ. because it simply is not there. And,,, I’ll bet you that God states he hates it.
All other festivals are pin-pointed to the hour and minute in Exodos 12 ( starting ) but not Christmas. If its not in the bible. As in this Case ( prove me wrong ) Then it is a man made festival. God states that he hates man made festivals. Amos 5 :21 Psa 14:4
So even God hates Christmas.
This should be fun !   | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 129 | |
| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/22/2006 1:11:54 AM | First, I used the word 'moderator' because a few of my posts have disappeared while the person and his posts actually doing the 'off topic' and/or bashing was left on. NOT referencing you on that account. I guess my opponent took his 'griefs' to another moderator then.
Until this thread was brought up from the past, the last post was a year ago. Since then there has not been one deletion, check the post count for yourself.
regardless, "poisoning the well" is dishonest.
You can put it to rest now, ...I've not done anything untoward, I AM debating the saliant points.
I feel I debate the issues, don't bash and don't mind providing links. I don't back off when I feel strongly on something and I do feel you were nic picking.
?
Read the thread, from 104, the only objection I COULD have in asking for the cite is the bit about "persecution".
I asked you to substanciate this, ...that is how a debate goes.
Your cite was fallacious, it proved my assertion in 104.
And, truthfully, most stuff I say is turned around and made snide of by certain Posters.
Most of the "stuff" I've seen so far in this debate from the "They are trying to take Christmas from us" contingent, is fallacy, which isn't honest debate, ...something I'm passionate about, which is why I avoid using it, it's not honest debate or discourse.
No biggie. I just wish I could debate with ya'll on 'Issues' not whose interpretation is more in sync with whatever quote has been pulled.
Your cite, which contradicted the point you made, ...the saliant point I specifically objected to, was the germane issue, not a "nit".
All other festivals are pin-pointed to the hour and minute in Exodos 12 ( starting ) but not Christmas. If its not in the bible. As in this Case ( prove me wrong ) Then it is a man made festival. God states that he hates man made festivals. Amos 5 :21 Psa 14:4
So even God hates Christmas.
Most are just grieving a normal and natural shift or change in pop culture, those same religious folk who used to decry the commercialization of Christmas into an orgy of consumerism, ...are the same folks complaining about the perceived loss of the biggest pop culture symbols of this orgy.
Nobody has "taken Christmas away", the very idea is absurd.
Does anybody not even "get" the etymology of "holiday"?
What is being argued in the OP is the fear of exclusion, ...when "holiday" is inclusive of all.
The truth is, ...there is no exclusion here, save for those who wish to keep a festive season to themselves alone.
This is hypocritical, especially when the victim card is played. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/22/2006 4:33:22 AM | | Well maybe I would be offened if they changed it from christmas season to holiday season, do they think about that? I think people need to stop whining about such trivial things, and I think just to be fair stores should inclused symbols that celebrate/recognize Kwanzaa, Hanukkah or what ever else. This world has gotten way to uptight and get so lost in who feels cheated or left out or not recongized enough that the real meaning of christmas, what ever it maybe to you has gotten lost. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/22/2006 1:27:20 PM | OP post
Okay on my way to work this morning I heard on the radio that the goverment is trying to change The Christmas Season to the Holiday Season so that they don't offend others...
The Government can't touch religion whatsoever.
People who get offended need more Religious Tolerance training and classes to include the Druid teachings.
I'm a Druid of the Brighid Druids, and I wish Christians a Merry Christmas because it's the kind thing to do.
There are many religious festivals going on at this time of year. There is no religious monopoly. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/22/2006 1:45:58 PM | Hmmmmm.......big words and link after link don't change any of it for me. The best explanation I can give those that don't understand ppl that are offended by the CHANGE to Happy Holidays is this....when you change something, something has to go away. How about ADDING Happy Holidays? I mean, if we are suppose to be so understanding of Muslims praying to Allah at the gate before boarding a flight, surely all of you open-minded folks can accommodate us Christians by allowing us to use the term "Merry Christmas"......ya think?
Late.....you are much better at the posting links thing than I am.....would you provide me just one example of the ACLU defending a Christian? I'm not being lazy, I'm just not as skilled as you are in that department. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 135 | |
| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/22/2006 1:55:52 PM | when you change something, something has to go away.
This is a causual fallacy known as "post hoc ergo propter hoc"
Sorry no, when you include everything, it doesn't exclude anything.
And, nobody is stopping anybody from wishing anybody a Merry Christmas, ...the point is for any agency that is a public service for EVERYBODY, ...to include EVERYBODY.
would you provide me just one example of the ACLU defending a Christian?
How's this (don't be offended, I included ALL the cites regardless of religion, ...):
Recent ACLU involvement in religious liberty cases include:
September 20, 2005: ACLU of New Jersey joins lawsuit supporting second-grader's right to sing "Awesome God" at a talent show.
August 4, 2005: ACLU helps free a New Mexico street preacher from prison.
May 25, 2005: ACLU sues Wisconsin prison on behalf of a Muslim woman who was forced to remove her headscarf in front of male guards and prisoners.
February 2005: ACLU of Pennsylvania successfully defends the right of an African American Evangelical church to occupy a church building purchased in a predominantly white parish.
December 22, 2004: ACLU of New Jersey successfully defends right of religious expression by jurors.
December 14, 2004: ACLU joins Pennsylvania parents in filing first-ever challenge to "Intelligent Design" instruction in public schools.
November 20, 2004: ACLU of Nevada supports free speech rights of evangelists to preach on the sidewalks of the strip in Las Vegas.
November 12, 2004: ACLU of Georgia files a lawsuit on behalf of parents challenging evolution disclaimers in science textbooks.
November 9, 2004: ACLU of Nevada defends a Mormon student who was suspended after wearing a T-shirt with a religious message to school.
August 11, 2004: ACLU of Nebraska defends church facing eviction by the city of Lincoln.
July 10, 2004: Indiana Civil Liberties Union defends the rights of a Baptist minister to preach his message on public streets.
June 9, 2004: ACLU of Nebraska files a lawsuit on behalf of a Muslim woman barred from a public pool because she refused to wear a swimsuit.
June 3, 2004: Under pressure from the ACLU of Virginia, officials agree not to prohibit baptisms on public property in Falmouth Waterside Park in Stafford County.
May 11, 2004: After ACLU of Michigan intervened on behalf of a Christian Valedictorian, a public high school agrees to stop censoring religious yearbook entries.
March 25, 2004: ACLU of Washington defends an Evangelical minister's right to preach on sidewalks.
February 21, 2003: ACLU of Massachusetts defends students punished for distributing candy canes with religious messages.
October 28, 2002: ACLU of Pennsylvania files discrimination lawsuit over denial of zoning permit for African American Baptist church.
July 11, 2002: ACLU supports right of Iowa students to distribute Christian literature at school.
April 17, 2002: In a victory for the Rev. Jerry Falwell and the ACLU of Virginia, a federal judge strikes down a provision of the Virginia Constitution that bans religious organizations from incorporating.
January 18, 2002: ACLU defends Christian church's right to run "anti-Santa" ads in Boston subways.
- http://www.aclu.org/religion/tencomm/16254res20050302.html
Rev. Jerry Falwell ? ....LOL!! where's the gratitude? | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 137 | |
| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/22/2006 2:09:02 PM | Please note the date of the most recent of your examples.....and my, how things have changed since 2002.
Please read beyond the last example and note the date on the site page.
(3/2/2005)
In other words, see past what you want to see, ...look up.
It's pointless to debunk your assumption, it's a strawman argument anyway, but it's easy.
Really, what people are up in arms about is that; in regards to anything related to the public service, ...ALL are to be included.
ie:
.....Peace on Earth and goodwill to ALL mankind
Is the thing that some have a beef against.
Lovely. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/22/2006 2:12:48 PM | I think the main reason why there is vigorous religious discussion in the Governments of today in the USA is because the Internet in the last 8 years has allowed people to group together and discuss their faiths and beliefs.
Before the Internet it was physical churches and expensive printed doctrine.
Fluid is the word to describe how religions have changed in the last 8 years. People have virtual services over the web. Vitrual readings.
The entire set in stone stiff dogma has evaporated, people have found their own religions with the increased communication this last decade.
With people increasing their unique religious or non-religious identity, the connections between Government and any set Religion has been increasingly brought into questioning. It's basically because spiritual belief systems have proliferated with the increased communication of the web that spiritual awareness and sensitivity has increased ten fold.
That includes the spiritual awareness to not have any set dogmatic religion, atheism it is also called.
I would assure people that in no way is it an attack on their religion, whatever that religion is. It's just a changing of the ground rules to allow all religions, or lack of dogmatic spiritual belief, of their mental and spiritual space in the Public area.
I think society should aim for spiritual freedom. I don't think Gov't should say anything either way, and certianly not spend public funds towards any religion, as it is not fair to Atheists. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 139 | |
| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/22/2006 2:20:58 PM | Not really, the original colonial Christians were the first to actually make celebrating Christmas a fine-able offence.
Really, if you want to go back to the "original traditions" to prove a point, there is again, the fallacy of irrelevant conclusion.
Several fallacies are being brought to the table here to support the "'They're taking Christmas away", I count at least 9.
I think what drives this need to be perceived the victim is just collective projection. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/22/2006 3:27:31 PM | What this all is coming to is that some of the politicians,like Nancy PELOSI,Hillary Clinton AND SEVERAL OTHER Democrats are trying to move this country into Communism and Nazism and the Democrats now have 1 Muslim in congress,some Democrats are pushing a Muslim Apostate to be President,Obama,I know that he claims to now be a Christian,but it is part of the Muslim theology that they will lie about their own beliefs to be able to push that belief further on society,and the Islamic faith teaches hate and especially hate for America.
Merry Christmas | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 141 | |
| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/22/2006 3:47:19 PM | What this all is coming to is that some of the politicians,like Nancy PELOSI,Hillary Clinton AND SEVERAL OTHER Democrats are trying to move this country into Communism and Nazism
1. Slippery Slope fallacy
2. Ad Hominum fallacy
3. Post Hoc fallacy
- the total sum of which is meaningless to the topic of the thread = non sequitur.
and the Democrats now have 1 Muslim in congress,some Democrats are pushing a Muslim Apostate to be President,Obama
1. Bigotry/Xenophobia
2. Circumstantial Ad Hominem fallacy
- the total sum of which is meaningless to the topic of the thread = non sequitur.
I know that he claims to now be a Christian,but it is part of the Muslim theology
1. Affirming The Consequent fallacy
2. Reductio Ad Absurdum
- the total sum of which is meaningless to the topic of the thread = non sequitur.
Muslim theology that they will lie about their own beliefs to be able to push that belief further on society,and the Islamic faith teaches hate and especially hate for America.
1. Bigotry/Xenophobia
2. Petitio principii / Begging the question
This above all is the most dangerous, as it is absolute rubbish, and not supported by any scholar of Islam or the Qu'ran. It is however, ...a true message of hate.
- the total sum of which is meaningless to the topic of the thread = non sequitur.
This is a typical false argument that collectively can be called a "strawman", the individual builds a "strawman" and then picks it apart.
Proving nothing in the process = Non Sequitur
A non sequitur can denote an abrupt, illogical, unexpected or absurd turn of dialogue not normally associated with or appropriate to that preceding it.
.....Peace on Earth and goodwill to ALL mankind
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/22/2006 3:59:35 PM | People really have to be careful that they dont misconstrue technological advances with persecution.
The technology of the internet is changing the way people feel about religions. So it's important to see the difference between people trying to persecute you and the simple fact that technology has changed the environment.
Often civilization looks back and sees that there really was not the persecution, but that technology had changed.
This is one important thing we have to keep in mind. Technological communication is not some evil force out to get anybody.
In Religions we deal with myth, faith, belief, things that are intangible and connected to our emotions and feelings, and fears. We really do have to take a step back and look at how technology of communication has affected the religious landscape before we get all paranoid that "other people" are persecuting us.
Religious passion is not logical, nor should it be and I'm not asking anybody to be rational and logical when they are in the throes of their Religious passion at this time of the year. I'm just asking that they not get into the whole "being persecuted" thing, because it very well may not be happening at all.
So just enjoy your religious ceremonies and celebrations and live your religious life to it's fullest if that's what you want to do. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/22/2006 4:06:40 PM | | The irony of posting something like that in a thread about Christmas is mind blowing. This guy may identify as a Christian, but Jesus wouldn't recognize those views as anything like what he was shooting for. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 144 | |
| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/22/2006 4:08:09 PM | Ahhh... but this is not that complex a dilemma to understand.
"Merry Christmas" = Exclusive to all but Christians.
"Happy Holidays" = Inclusive to ALL regardless of faith (Christianity included) or lack thereof.
The second misunderstood issue.
Nobody is saying you can't say "Merry Christmas"
What is being pointed out that those who serve the public, re: Inclusive to ALL regardless of faith (Christianity included) or lack thereof, are being told not to exclude anybody.
How hard is this to understand.
Can Christians not be comfortable in their faith unless all other faiths are marginalized?
The irony of posting something like that in a thread about Christmas is mind blowing
...Speaks volumes. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/22/2006 4:24:19 PM | I agreed LEAVE Christmas just where is it songs and all. I am so tired of having to change things so it doesn't offend anyone. Well I am offend so why aren't they LEAVING it alone.
Maybe they should look at things that are really important i.e homeless, our health care system, education. I could go on but I will end with this
"If it isn't broken don't fix it" and I don't see were Christmas is broken.......
MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 147 | |
| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/22/2006 7:05:05 PM |
I agreed LEAVE Christmas just where is it songs and all.
A)
Where do we freeze "where it is"?
Now? 10 years ago? 20?, 100?, 200? ...better not go that far back, celebrating Christmas was still illegal in many states, CHristians were funny that way back then.
I am so tired of having to change things so it doesn't offend anyone.
B)
So, you think that, in regards to any public service agency, that all but Christians should be excluded from Holy-days?
Well I am offend so why aren't they LEAVING it alone.
C)
See "A"
Maybe they should look at things that are really important i.e homeless, our health care system, education.
D)
For everybody? ....or just Christians.
I could go on but I will end with this
"If it isn't broken don't fix it" and I don't see were Christmas is broken.......
E)
Neither do I, I can't for the life of me figure out what people are actually whining about.
Unless it's because, "Happy Holidays" includes, ...Peace on Earth and goodwill to ALL mankind
Ida' know..... it still sounds Christmassy to me. | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/22/2006 7:11:41 PM | I'm assuming that this means no more "Happy Hannakuh" as well? I mean, let's share the wealth, right? Don't offend anyone in Macy's by saying something as horrid as Merry Christmas or Happy Hannakuh....Just curious about other religious holiday salutations.....haven't heard anything said along these lines.....just the Christian thing. Anyone?
Hell.....should I even speak English? I mean, what if I offend someone at the gas station that doesn't speak English. And the slippery slope continues...... | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 149 | |
| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/22/2006 7:40:41 PM | I'm assuming that this means no more "Happy Hannakuh" as well?
That's absurd, it doesn't mean "no more Merry Christmas" either.
Don't offend anyone in Macy's by saying something as horrid as Merry Christmas or Happy Hannakuh....
Who said it was horrid, ...all that is being considered, is consideration of all?
Exclusion of none?
Should staff who serve the public have to say
Merry Christmas
Happy Hannakuh
Kwazy Kwanza
Festive Eid
Joyeous Diwali
Festive Yule
Good Solistace
Festivus for the Resivus!
....why when, Happy Holidays leaves no one out?
"Holidays"
Etymology - "Holy Days"
.....nobody excluded
Just curious about other religious holiday salutations.....haven't heard anything said along these lines.....just the Christian thing. Anyone?
I haven't seen any other religions lobbying for exclusivity either.
Hell.....should I even speak English? I mean, what if I offend someone at the gas station that doesn't speak English. And the slippery slope continues......
Yes it does, ..."slippery slope" is a fallacy BTW.
Why is it so important to your faith that other faiths MUST be marginalized?
Do you know how Pope John Paul addressed the Dali Lama?
"Your Holiness"
The Dali Lama addressed the Pope with those same words.
What is SO OFFENSIVE about, "Holy"? | |
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| Changing to Christmas Season to the Holiday Season??????
Posted: 12/22/2006 7:52:06 PM | | Oh how I beg to differ.......please NEVER even imply that it is important to my faith that other faiths be marginalized. I live quite comfortably nestled among ppl of a variety of beliefs. When did all of this lobbying take place? I must have missed the memo. | |
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