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| Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 1/18/2007 1:47:11 PM |
A 'Jew' does not accept Jesus as the Messiah. That 'Jew' may still be 'Jewish' by race, but is not 'Jewish' by faith; since that faith holds that the Messiah has not yet come.
See, that's the thing. "Jew", is not a race. There are Ashkenazi Jews, Sephardic Jews, Etheopian Jews, Kurdish Jews, Iranian Jews, etc. It is also not a culture. They all have different cultural practices. Judaism is only a religion.
Muslims accept Christ. Does that make us Christian? I don't think so.
Exactly. Muslims accepted another prophet, that was not recognized by Christianity, and rejected the Trinity. They formed a new religion. Arguing that Jews who accept Jesus, as their Messiah, and accept the Trinity, which most do, are still Jewish, is exactly like arguing that Muslims are Christians.
Messianic Jews are Christians.
Most 'Christians' accept some version of the pagan notion of the triun God (mother/father/son or mind/spirit/flesh as the most popular); this is not a requirement of being a 'Messianic Jew', although it also not a requirement for being a 'Christian'.
Non-Trinitarian "Christians" don't even show up on the radar, in today's global Christian population. That practice has been deemed heretical, quite a number of times.
__________
the original version does not always coincide with correctness!
The Tanakh translates it as "divine beings". The Septuagint translates it as "angels of God". And, the exact term "sons of God"/"Ben Elohiym" [n]never refers to anything, except angels, in the Tanakh/OT. Believe whatever you want.
Peace  | |
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| Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 3/1/2007 1:24:31 PM | I guess this is why I stay away from labels. Something people need to understand that just like with any "religion" there are people that have different beliefs and may differ from one another. Who went and determined that all people that call themselves "messianics" believe THIS way and THIS way only? Don't get me wrong, I completely understand. It would be correct to say that most messianics do believe in some form of the trinity, however there are still many that do not and recognize it's anti-Torah pagan concept. I got to say it its pretty tough being a Torah observant - Messiah believing individual. You have the christians that tell you - you are too jewish to belong and then the Jews that tell you you are too christian because you believe Yahshua (btw, his birth given name, in english: Joshua, not Jesus which came from G-d knows where) is the prophesied Messiah.
Anyway I identify as a Jew because thats the closest thing to what I am. I live a "jewish" life, I keep torah, observe the biblical festivals, study all the scripture the guys in the NT told the followers to study, which didnt happen to be matthew, mark, luke, or john...no not even any of the writings Paul wrote. Its plain to see that the first followers that accepted the Messiah continued to keep the sabbath and the new believers were instructed to learn torah gradually each sabbath as it is read in the synagogues. (Acts 15) Christianity which is really an offshoot of Catholicism, is exactly as its name means (Catholicism = Universalism). They took their belief in the messiah and combined it with every pagan idea known to them... So they didnt abandon their pagan religion they simply gave all their customs new meanings, prettier meanings. So we have people that say they follow a religion linking back to judaism when in reality they celabrate not the holy days that the Messiah (a Jew himself) kept, but the same ones your local wiccan believers do. Imagine that.
A true "Messianic" believer is going to simply pattern his life after the Messiah's. He didn't celebrate the winter soltice, or saturnalia, what we commonly call christmas today. Look it up its a lovely holy celebration. He didn't eat pig, He didn't give sundays a new meaning, and secretly hoped the real 7th day sabbath would fade away into obscurity. He didnt go by the name Jesus, he was Jewish, why would he have a greek name? He didn't concider himself G-d or even equal with G-d, in fact he said that he worships the same G-d we do. (John 20:17)
But who am I to set the standards of some label. Call it whatever, but at least we can get real about what its supposed to be.
And also, being jewish is by the bloodline, but more importantly its a faith. If your a Jew by birth, yet you serve another G-d you are NOT a Jew. Being jewish is more than what blood flows through your veins, its about action, its about faith, its what we do that determine who we are. And likewise if you convert, the Torah says they are no different than the native born. | |
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| Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 7/11/2007 2:34:54 AM | Oh, boy. Are Messianic Jews still Jewish? Absolutely! As a matter of face, I practice Judaism, NOT Christianity. Yes, I read the Artscroll Chumash, yes, I practice handwashing, yes, I pray from a Siddur, yes, I attend a synagogue, yes, yes, yes. Yes I'm learning Hebrew, yes I'm from the tribe of Levi, yes I've lost family in the Holocaust, let's see, oh, yes, yes I read from Torah, yes the Tanakh (check out the Jewish Publication Society, they have lots of great stuff) and yes I'm kosher.
But does all this really matter? When you get down to the nitty gritty? I know that I know the Yeshua is Promised One. And yes, I know from Devarim that anyone who claims to come from HaShem but teaches otherwise was not from Him. Where do you find that Yashua broke the Law? Bring me facts people.
I know I'm doing exactly what HaShem wants. I know the Yashua is the Son of God, why is that so hard for some people? Adam was the son of God, Israel was called the Sons of God, what is the big deal? Are you guys so biased here? You can read for yourself and please, not as a gentile either.
Oh, yes, somebody from this list said something about Christianity making converts and Judaism doesn't or something of that matter. Ah, your wrong here. If you read your Chumash, our Father Abraham and Sarah had lots of converts when they left Abraham's father's land.
And who says you have to accept Messianic Jews? We follow HaShem. Listen: Abraham was called an Ivri, from "the other side". Literally this means that he came to Canaan from the other side of the Euphrates, but Sages interpret the title in a deeper sense, too. He was on one side of a moral and spiritual divide, and the rest of the world was on the other. Righteous people must be ready to endure such isolation, popularity is pleasant but it is also a snare, because the natural desire to win the approval of others can easily lead people to bend their principles. Abraham and Sarah were now given the challenge of moving to the other side-not only of their native river, but of anyone who preferred not to acknowledge the sovereignty of God.
Abraham was not popular, as a matter of fact, He was going against the religious beliefs and traditions of his people. He destroyed His father's god's, was hunted by the king, who wanted to kill him (twice). All for taking a stand for what was right, not popular, not what was tradition, but right.
So if you don't want to accept us, if the majority of the rabbi's don't want to accept us, so what? I won't lose no sleep over that. I know that HaShem called me one year ago, to leave my mother's church and her traditions and to follow HaShem. That's funny, I never realized that Abraham and I have so much in common :) As long as I have the approval and love of HaShem, to hear His voice, feel His presence, how happy I am, how blessed! Even when He wakes me three in the morning to pray for someone, tells me to go somewhere or do something, it is such a privilege! And how I do love Him. | |
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| Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 7/11/2007 3:09:24 AM | Messianic Jews do not believe in the Trinity. That is putting God into a box and putting our own label on Him. The Torah does quote that there is God and there is the Holy Spirit, (Ruach HaKodesh) now that is two, but what about the son? It's either in Isaiah or in Psalms, it asks "Do you know the name of His Son?" There are so many scriptures that tell of Him.
Like I said earlier, it doesn't matter if Israel will allow Messianic Jews in or not. It doesn't matter if Israel accepts them or not, When HaShem wants them in there, He'll put them in there. Like it or not.
BTW in the Tanakh, where does HaShem label His relationship with Israel and the foreigner as religion?
And if He didn't label it as such, why do we label it religion?
Why do we call it a religion when HaShem wants a relationship? | |
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| Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 7/11/2007 8:48:32 AM |
A 'Jew' does not accept Jesus as the Messiah. That 'Jew' may still be 'Jewish' by race, but is not 'Jewish' by faith; since that faith holds that the Messiah has not yet come.
Conversations like this interest me. Why is it that people like this come onto a forum thinking they know everything about a religion that they don't practice, and preach on and on about what that religion is in such a matter of fact way that people might actually believe them? Why do these same people NEVER LISTEN when a person of the actual faith comes on here and says hey...you're wrong. Sorry. How close-minded are we as a society when we refuse to listen?
Judaism is a religion. IT IS NOT A RACE. I don't know how often I need to come onto similiar posts and forums like this one and point that out.
If I'm filling out a new hire form and they ask me for background information, I will put "caucasion" for race, "English/Russian" for heritage, and "Jewish" for religion. It's so blatantly obvious to me that Judaism is a religion. YES, we are born Jewish. Just as people are born Christian, Buddist, Muslim, etc. You are raised with certain traditions and family values, some based on religion. You can CHOOSE to convert out of your religion. You can't choose not to be a certain race. You can't choose your heritage. You can choose to be or not to be Jewish.
Messianic Jews are Jews who accept Jesus as the Messiah.
Yes, I remember when that happened before. Back when Christ died on the cross and Christianity had yet to exist. Then for those who believe, he rose from the dead and the Jewish people who believed in this also believed him to be the Messiah. Know what happened? A new religion called Christianity. Those Jewish people now believed that the Messiah they had been waiting for had arrived in the form of Jesus Christ. Those people were now CHRISTIANS. "Jews who accept Jesus as the Messiah" are not Jewish. It goes against the basis of the Jewish religion, being that A) we only accept ONE God and B) we are still waiting for the Messiah. If you believe Jesus Christ is the son of God and you pray to him and you believe the Messiah has come, you are no longer Jewish. You are Christian. It's simple definition. It's not an insult. It's a religion, it's a belief. Just call it what it is. | |
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| Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 7/27/2007 11:52:43 AM | I have enjoyed reading all of this that has been posted...
I have a very dear Messianic Jew who converted from Catholism. She and I have wonderful conversations. She enlightens me from the Jewish perspective. I was raised Catholic. But now do not subscribe to any label. I believe in Yeshua (this is Jesus's Hebrew name) so I consider myself a follower of Yeshua and a Yeshuaite. Anyway, the Jewish religion is our roots (Catholic). We were never meant to leave the Jewish traditions. Now having that said, I am also of Mexican heritage whose people on this side of the hemisphere were not part of the then known world. Which is the Middle East. As I tell my Christian friends Yeshua was not a Christian. He was/is a Jew. And that Christianity came about when people back then were in a frenzy and they were also trying to be the next messiah/prophet. Keeping in mind that what was being preached was that the end was coming very soon! 2000 + years later we are still waiting for Yeshua to come back. I encourage people to go outside of their religion and engage in conversation about all of this. If I had not done this I would not have a greater appreciation for the early Catholic church. As I always say St. Peter is rooling over in his grave seeing what has become of Yeshua's church. I have been very blessed to have met some exceptional people who religiously are from all walks of life. I would like to converse more with Muslims. We are all here for each other and should stop bickering over who what where and when. And I have to agree with Miss Spunky Jadyn....you don't know everything and we can all stand to be enlightened!
I know I certainly enjoy it! It does help to strenghten my faith.
Have a beautiful day!
Carino | |
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| Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 7/28/2007 11:39:18 AM | can you be racially a Jew? Science now says yes. In doing the human genome a gene was discovered that is now known as the Rabbi Gene this Gene is only found in Jews or those of Jewish heritage. So yes there is a race , a culture and a Jewish religion.
here is an interesting story. There isa tribe in South Africa that claimed to be Jewish. Most thought that when that area of the world was being colonized, they came in contact with some Jews and converted. This tribe has always claimed that they have been Jewish for 1000s of years. In fact they claim to be descendants of King Salomon. to test This claim some scientist in Israel decided they would look for the rabbi gene in this Tribe. What they found was that a large number of the men did in fact have this Gene.
personally i feel a distinction should be made between a follower of Jesus and a Christian. From what I have read there wasa long standing disagreement between Paul and the chruch that was established in Jerusalem. Keep in mind that paul never knew the living Jesus. he wasa Jew from Greece, hence very influenced by Greek culture and religion. He was only in contact with the Chruch in Jerusalem for a short time Then went off on his mission to convert for 15 years. a careful reading of paul's letters shows that he was in disagreement with Jerusalem over what it meant to be a follow of Jesus. i believe he mixed the cult of Mithra with Jesus. founding a new religion we now know as Christianity.
There are a great many problems with the stories of The christianized stories of Jesus and The crucifixion might be the most glaring.
there is no way that Jewish leaders would have held a trial or a meeting about Jesus during passover. It would have been a holy time and forbidden by Jewish law.
Thousands of Jews were crucified by Rome. they did not need permission Ora blessing by Jews to put someone to death. In fact handing over a Jew so that the r Romans could put him to death would also be a violation of Jewish Law.
i could go on. there are volumes about this subject. in short i do think that you can be Jewish and a follower of Jesus. but not a Christian. To be honest if you truly believe in Jesus I feel you should first convert to being Jewish and observe the the Sabbath( it isn't Sunday) the Jewish Holiday and Kosher laws.
Mithra and Christ both are of virgin birth, both are the son of God. Mithra is the Sun God.
Both are worshiped on Sunday not the Sabbath.
Both are born on Dec 25th.
Note also that Easter is a calendar event and not during Passover. How can that be if Jesus was Crucified on Passover? Passover and Easter should be at the same time . Easter in a renamed pagan Mithra related Holiday. | |
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| Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 8/6/2007 7:35:55 PM | As those who have read the many responses will have gathered, the answer to this question depends on who you ask. 
Messianic Jews claim still to be Jewish.
The remainder of Judaism would, with few exceptions, not consider them to be Jewish.
The normal definition of being Jewish is that one remains a Jew so long as one does not explicitly reject Judaism. Accepting Christianity, such as accepting Jesus as divine, I would think would count as an explicit rejection of Judaism.
Nothing would stop a Jew from accepting and respecting the TEACHING of Jesus. I must say that there's hardly anything he said that I disagree with myself.
But if they want to consider themselves Jewish, I don't think they're hurting anyone. In Yiddish, the expression is "Abi Gezunt!" As long as you're healthy!  | |
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sbbeef
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Joined: 10/24/2006
Msg: 136 | |
| Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 10/14/2007 6:58:11 PM | | First of all if you would bother reading the Bible instead of letting others interpret it you would find out that Rabbi Yeshua and his apostles were "Jewish" and the early Messianic people were "Observant". What is called Christianity today is a corrupted form of Judaism because of the prejudices against Jews by Constantine and many other refugees from the invading Parthians (Germans (Gad), Prussians, Scythians (Saxons), and other tribes). Well, good luck in your road to enlightenment. Sincerely, Michael J. Wellington at sbbeef@gmail.com | |
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| Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 10/20/2007 1:53:39 PM |
The greatest majority of modern day "Jews" are not genetic or racial Israelites (about 90% or so according to the Jewish scholar's own estimates). They are not YHWHs' "chosen people" as most people misidentify them today, and Jesus was not "Jewish" in the way a previous poster asserted. Modern day "Jews" are descended from a Mongolian/ Turkish race known as the Khazars. The Khazars adopted the religion of Judaism between the 7th and 9th centuries AD. This is where the Ashkenazi, or "German Jew" comes from that comprise the majority of Jews today. Google the terms Ashkenazi Jews and Sephardic Jews.
You could believe this crap, which is often cited on the same web sites as white supremacists and Holocaust deniers, or you could demand that the poster either produce real information from mainstream genetic science that confirms it...or withdraw the bullsh*t claim which is the same kind of goose-stepping nonsense that you always here from Jewish persecutors and should be not given the time of day.
Well do you have any REAL science to back it up from mainstream, peer-reviewed geneticists that are not from the lunatic fringe? We won't hold our breath...
The Jewish religion is based on a book called the Talmud. The Talmud comes from ancient Babylon, not the Hebrew religion of the Bible. Judaism isn't based on the Bible as most people today believe. The Talmud is a book of laws written over the ages by Jewish Rabbis. These laws completely contradict the Biblical 10 commandments, and the laws of YHWH. Judaism rejects YHWHs' laws for the laws their Rabbis made up, and thereby elevate their Rabbis to the status of God (There is even a part of their Talmudic literature that states a Rabbi got into an argument with YWHW, and the Rabbi won the argument!). Judaism is a humanistic religion, where Biblical religions are monotheistic.
I honestly haven't seen propaganda like this since Der Stuhrmer was last in print. As the poster very thinly treads the line of promoting hatred against an identifiable group, (which is illegal in Canada and on Canadian web sites) by spreading this malicious misinformation let me clear up something for you - the above quote is completely untrue and the poster knows it. Search any Jewish website, any religious tolerance website and even any mainstream Christian website and you will not find such a blatantly agenda driven misrepresentation of the Jewish faith there, nor such a misrepresentation of one of the co-religionists of the Peoples of the Book.
Any time you see the words "talmudism", "Pharisaism" or "Rabbinic" used in the pejorative you can be sure these are buzz words for a Jew hater, new covenant theologist or a white supremacist, make no mistake about it. This material is frequently disseminated by people like Ernst Zundel, Stormfront and others as part of their Anti-Semitic, White Christian agenda. Ordinarily this would be "Godwinizing" a debate...alas this is one of the few times it is truly relevant and that indeed is a sad thing.
AS TO THE TALMUD...coming from Babylon...what stupidity.
http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/
This is one of the better sites about the Talmud on the net and as it concludes quite rightly there are MANY lies, the above quoted unsupported drivel among them, about the Talmud floating about on the internet. The poster above posts this unmitigated poppycock with no reputable support...it's essentially just more fringe group hate fiction against Jews.
This site essentially takes apart and dismisses EVERY SINGLE ONE of the posters frivalous and hateful claims about the Talmud. To reprint them here would be an exercise...however if the poster continues in their excremental nonsense, I would be more than happy to do so...I would suggest to them going to the site now and reading it because you'd have a long way to go to prepare a rebuttal to any one of them.
The irony of the last sentence in the quote regarding monotheism and Christianity is just too silly to bear focussing on.
Today honest discussion and debate is often met with slander and accusations when it comes to talking about anything Jewish as well. This is probably why your friend acts the way he does when it comes up.
Like referring to Jews as "not Jews", idolatyrs, deceivers, hypocrites and persecutors as well as deicides...slander and accusation indeed. Rich irony.
I encourage anyone genuinely interested in the Talmud and wanting to learn about it from real authors versed in Hebrew and not agenda driven hatemongers with an axe to grind, feel free to check that site, or ask your local rabbi as they would be more than willing to help you in most cases if you are genuinely interested in learning. Unlike what some may tell you, they do not poison wells, steal unbaptised Christian babies to harvest blood for Purim cakes, or transmit the plague... .
Only first-cousin-marrying-bigots from North America do that... | |
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| Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 10/20/2007 2:11:20 PM |
Modern day "Jews" are descended from a Mongolian/ Turkish race known as the Khazars. The Khazars adopted the religion of Judaism between the 7th and 9th centuries AD. This is where the Ashkenazi, or "German Jew" comes from that comprise the majority of Jews today. Google the terms Ashkenazi Jews and Sephardic Jews.
The Khazars were a multi-ethnic semi-nomadic STATE who's leaders converted to Judaism.
The majority of it's people were nomadic tribes who were ruled by a sedentary elite in a few cities (notably their capital on the Caspian). The Khazars were jewish, muslim, pagan, and even buddhist.
I would appreciate it if you learned the facts before spreading crap like the above. | |
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| Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 10/22/2007 10:52:07 PM | One hardly knows where to begin to disagree with geometry, who has it all wrong:
The greatest majority of modern day "Jews" are not genetic or racial Israelites... DNA testing proves differently.
The Jewish religion is based on a book called the Talmud The Jewish religion is based on the Bible, particularly the first 5 books, called the Torah. The Talmud is a commentary on the Bible, quite extensive, but nevertheless just a record of discussions over centuries. Some of these may shed light, but are not authoritative. There is indeed a story there as recounted about a rabbi who won an argument with God. And everyone takes it as just that: a story! Foolish person to take it as fact!
Let's keep New Testament stuff out of it. Jesus spent his entire time on earth as a devout, practicing Jew. Christianity started after his time here. Actual historical records indicate that Jesus and his small sect were accepted as being within mainstream Judaism by the contemporary Rabbis. Of course later, after the Jewish wars, and the start of Christianity, the gospel writers chose to tell a different story and slant things to favor Rome. But Rome is gone and the Jewish people survive.
Time to move past anti-semitism and false history. | |
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| Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 10/23/2007 12:03:12 AM |
Time to move past anti-semitism and false history.
Well said sir. This New Covenant theology is just more of the same British-Israelism mixed with a healthy dash of the Christian Identity Movement...crackpot nonsense from the 19th Century which is embraced only by the lunatic fringe - remember Willie Martin, Tim McVeigh, Randy "Ruby Ridge" Weaver and others, and frequently posted on sites like Stormfront and those hosted by Aryan Nations and the KKK. Fortunately it has been thoroughly debunked by modern science, archaeology, genetics...in fact to anyone with any knowledge of the books of the day it would have never gotten off the ground.
A collection of essays in the public domain entitled "History of the Ten Lost Tribes
by David Baron"
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_the_Ten_Lost_Tribes_-_Anglo-Israelism_Examined
Add these to the mix...
British-Israelism: A Mirage http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/mirage.htm
British-Israelism Refuted http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/wallace.htm
Dogma Of Christian Identity http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/identity_dogma.htm]
Christian Identity: A religion for White Racists http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/identity.htm
The Real Truth About The Khazars http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/khazars.htm
Why Judaism is not A Race http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/j4j_not.htm
The Fraud of The Protocols Of the Elders Of Zion
http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/protocols.htm
Willie Martin and The Christian Identity on Trial - http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/index.htm
That should be just about enough of that nonsense...thanks for playing. | |
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| Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 10/23/2007 7:39:56 AM | I knew that a lot of what was writen here was stinking up the place. I Just did not know the Pedigree of the foul smelling critter.
A lot of this reminds me of the European Nobil Houses that made up geneologies to Link them to the Holy Family, there by proving they had The devine right to rule. | |
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| Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 10/23/2007 10:00:03 AM | Nice try but the link I posted to the Khazars totally debunks that myth:
The Real Truth About The Khazars http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/khazars.htm
Your highly out of context quotes from Rabbis about the Talmud and additional myths about its origin and content and handily dealt with here:
http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/
You won't find any more "lebensraum" in this forum because your material is offtopic here as well. The subject is Messianic Judaism not Anglo-Israel poppycock. | |
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| Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 10/23/2007 1:24:59 PM | geometry
Your theories are just plan full of sh*t.
DNA evidence has positively proved a common DNA marker around 80% of those tested. The DNA can be traced back 1000 years BC to semitic people that are from the Middle. This marker has been found in Jews around the world.
if you would like more information Here is a link Cohan-levi.org look up the genealogy link on that site. | |
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| Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 10/23/2007 1:26:03 PM |
Once again with the slander. For this garbage you spew at people who disagree with you to be true, and in order for your position to remain consistent, would mean that:
My position is quite evident to anyone viewing it, no one needs a strawman being built by you to see what it is or isn't.
Slandering and misrepresenting what people say along with their sources is mighty handy when you've got no valid argument, and I realize that. It's your favorite tactic to avoid honest debate and analysis where your own beliefs are concerned, and you enjoy resorting to it very much.
Rather than reprint the entirety of those sites, which dismiss racist propaganda point for point using actual cited facts instead of crackpot nonsense from two centuries ago mixed with out of context quotes, ad mauseum, I'd rather just stay on topic for this thread. I just posted the links.
Talmudism, Judaism, and Zionism are no more above honest scrutiny, debate, or disagreement than any other race, religion, or government on the face of the planet. And just because people, Jew and non-Jew alike, so disagree, debate, and scrutinize in those regards doesn't mean they hate Jews! How ridiculous, and what a shameful practice to cloak attempts at silencing free speech.
"Free speech" does not give one the right to utter "fighting words", shout "fire" in a crowded theatre, or on a Canadian website, promote hatred against identifiable groups...and in the Religion forums of PoF it also doesn't allow one to dehumanize or demean specific religious or cultural groups either. Debating Judaism and Zionism is a perfectly acceptable practice. The only people who use the word "Talmudism" however are historical revisionists and hatemongers and those who wish to de-Judaize Judaism. Honest scrutiny would be a new practice indeed for those people.
Now one may disagree with them all you like and post incorrect material about them...and when someone calls bull**** about it, and asks them to produce verifiable mainstream data to confirm their story, they may evade all they like...but don't try to call it denial of free speech. That's just being a crybaby when the facts make them look like a tool.
If you want to discuss those issues, start a new thread.
This one is about Messianic Judaism and doesn't need hijacking by an historical revisionist or fringe believer with an agenda to promote. | |
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| Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 10/23/2007 9:04:03 PM | Geometry, you have not addressed MY comments; which, though brief, completely undermine everything you say.
In short, only the tiniest percent of a fraction of the Khazars were Jewish.
And If you insist on continuing to repeat your hate literature, I will report it to the PoF staff.
You seem very oblivious to the fact that spreading such trash is illegal here in Canada, and since this is a CANADIAN site, it is under the jurisdiction of Canadian law.
So, if you want to find yourself subject to prosecution, by all means, keep it up. | |
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| Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 10/27/2007 6:21:03 PM | As to geometry's quotes from various Talmud prefaces, no one disputes that Jews regard the Talmud as a great piece of work. That it is! It's one of the most comprehensive set of biblical commentaries in existence. But that doesn't mean it supersedes the Bible.
Since you say you've researched the subject, you know better, so your comments are not from ignorance. They are simply lies, and quotes out of context.
The Talmud has two main sets. The larger is the Babylonian Talmud. The smaller set is the Jerusalem Talmud. Both are many volumes long.
As to the Khazars, your facts about this section of Judaism is correct. But the majority of Jews comes from Judah. Modern DNA testing has proven this.
Drop the hate, it's a weakness. Well said. Now take your own advice.
Remember that God judges. You will yet be called upon to answer whether anti-semitism is a Christian value or not. | |
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| Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 10/28/2007 11:15:25 AM |
If you keep the food laws then you're not following Christian beliefs. Jesus said that it's not what goes into the body that makes you unclean, but what comes out. According to Christian doctrines you're longer longer supposed to keep the Law.
All law? Does that mean that a true christian can not impose a moral code on others because the law does not apply? I actually have something to say when people quote the mosaic laws and use them to judge people? Sorry, I think this is priceless.
On Jews... I really don't know much about it except I thought Jews were a people, bloodline through their mother. Though I also know some people who have converted to Judaism(usually in cases of marriage). I think my confusion is because there are "born Jews" and converted Jews. That's a little confusing...would it be more "Hebrew's" as a people and "Jewish" as a religion? I am aware that there are many sects of Judaism also.
I proclaim my ignorance in this matter. | |
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| Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 10/28/2007 7:23:06 PM |
On Jews... I really don't know much about it except I thought Jews were a people, bloodline through their mother. Though I also know some people who have converted to Judaism(usually in cases of marriage). I think my confusion is because there are "born Jews" and converted Jews. That's a little confusing...would it be more "Hebrew's" as a people and "Jewish" as a religion? I am aware that there are many sects of Judaism also.
I proclaim my ignorance in this matter. Perhaps I can help. Part of the confusion is that Judaism is both a people and a religion. Converts are considered fully Jewish. However no test of faith is required if you are born Jewish. You remain Jewish unless you explicitly reject Judaism, such as joining another religion.
A 25 cent guided tour may be in order, but you're in luck. Today it's free if you're wearing a red sweater and are from Saint Catharines.
Judaism has 3 main branches, Orthodox, Conservative and Reform. There is no central authority, and Jewish practice varies from person to person and from congregation to congregation. Each of the 3 main branches has many smaller branches, and there are other smaller groups as well.
Central to Judaism is belief in One God. It should be noted however, that belief is not required, and action rather than belief is considered the key. For example, it's perfectly acceptable to doubt God's existence. Although most Jews do believe, God does not need our belief to exist.
What is required is performance of Mitzvahs. The English translation is both Good Deeds, and Commandments. In Judaism, doing good is not just a nice thing to do. It is a requirement. A matter of Jewish Law. You may have heard of the ceremony when Jewish children come of age, which are called Bar or Bat Mitzvahs. The significance is that they are now responsible to follow the Commandments and to do good.
Jews believe that you do not have to be Jewish to be "saved", or any such thing like that. Thus Jews do not evangelize. Being Jewish carries additional responsibility, but not necessarily any benefits other than the opportunity in this life to practice Judaism.
Jews, probably mostly because of the long history of anti-semitism, do tend to be supportive of one another. If you should be interested in reading about it, a good history of anti-semitism is "Constantine's Sword: The Church and the Jews : a History" By James Carroll.
And like all religions, there's a lot of ritual and holidays and all the good stuff. A good reference is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism. | |
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| Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 10/28/2007 9:27:54 PM | Like to clear up a few facts:
1) Jews are a race
Jews are a race and Judaism is a religion.
Jews have this very strange law: once a Jew, always a Jew.
Just like being any other nationality. If you're born a Brit, you're a Brit no matter where you go.
Now, if this is true, what does it mean for a Jew to practise another religion?
It means that he's not practising his religion. He's not doing the right thing.
But he's still a Jew.
If he's still a Jew, what difference does it make if he doesn't practise Judaism?
The answer is again simple, but unexpected. Jews have a different POV on Heaven than most people. Heaven is not an either-you-go-or-you-don't-place for Jews. You go to Heaven, but the more good things you did in this world, the better Heaven is for you in the next. So if you don't keep your religion, you still get to Heaven, but you get a billion billionth of the Heaven you would have gotten if you did the right thing.
What if you thought you were doing the right thing?
True intent and actions are the most important. If you truly believe that you are doing the right thing, you get rewarded as if you were right. But G-d's a clever guy. He puts you in situations that show if you are faking it or not, to be replayed later when you get to the gates of Heaven.
2) Does the Talmud come from Babylonia?
Depends on your viewpoint.
If you believe that the date of first publication is what's important, and that the NT comes from England, because the NT in the King James Bible that most people use was first published there in 1611, then yes, because the Babylonian Talmud was first published in Babylonia (Iraq). However, if you believe that the information in the NT is what's important and Jesus spoke in the Middle East around the First Century, then you have to consider that the Talmud is composed of quotes from people going from the Third Century all the way back to Moses. In fact, the Talmud is really a collection of discussions on the Bible and the Laws written in it. Every law in the Talmud can be traced back to the Bible. However, it is acknowledged that some can be shown easier than others.
Either way, it's a collection of discussions containing quotes of people from the Third Century all the way back to Moses. A lot of people are quoted who travelled back and forth between Israel and Babylonia. In particular, Rabbi Yochanan lived in Israel and ran away to Babylonia to escape the Roman Occupation. He often quotes Rabbi (Rabbi Yahudah Hanassi) who lived his whole life in Israel.
3) Where do the terms Jew and Israel come from?
The OT never mentions Jews. It talks about the "sons of Israel" (Jacob). In Hebrew, the word "sons" (Banim, from the word Boneh = "to build) meaning children you have brought up, pupils, or descendants. The word Yeled (from the word Yalad = "to give birth") means biological children. So the term "sons of Israel" means descendants of Jacob.
The land known as Israel is referred to as "the land of Israel", meaning the land promised to Jacob and his descendants in the OT.
The word Jew comes from the Yiddish / German "Jude" (pronounced Yudah in German), short for Judah-ite, meaning one of the tribe of Judah. This term is generally used to refer to modern Jews because after the Assyrian Invasion, 10 of the 12 tribes (13 if you count Ephraim and Menasheh as 2 separate tribes) were supposed to have been exiled, and were never found. This left the tribe of Yehudah, the tribe of Levi, the tribe of Benjamin (situated as a strip inside the region of Yehudah) and a few of each tribe who were in the region occupied by Yehudah at the time. As the tribes of Levi and Bejamin were always very small, and the tribe of Yehudah was always extremely large, the tribe of Yehudah was by far the bulk of the population. So the descendants of Israel became known as the Yehudim. As the Romans wrote a Y as a J, the Yehudim became known as the Judaim, which in German became the Juden, and in singular form, Jude (Yudah), which was read by English speakers as Jewde, shortened to Jew.
As you can see, Judaim (Yudah-im) was read as Judaism by English speakers, and was taken to be the English word for the religion.
Just thought you'd like to know. | |
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| Are Messianic Jewish people still Jewish ?
Posted: 10/28/2007 10:50:35 PM | The imputation that the anti-Semite is using is that the Talmud, because it was written or compiled during the Captivity, is somehow of Babylonian origin, is therefore a product of Babylonian religion. This is, as is obvious, both a logical and religious absurdity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud
Since the Exile to Babylonia in 586 BCE, there had been Jewish communities living in Babylonia as well as in Judea, as many of the captives never returned home. From then till the Talmudic period the Babylonian Jewish population increased through natural growth as well as migration. The most important of the Jewish centres were Nehardea, Nisibis, Mahoza, Pumbeditha and Sura. It was no longer necessary for scholars to travel regularly to Israel to gather authentic traditions.
Talmud Bavli (the "Babylonian Talmud") comprises the Mishnah and the Babylonian Gemara, the latter representing the culmination of more than 300 years of analysis of the Mishnah in the Babylonian Academies. The foundations of this process of analysis were laid by Rab, a disciple of Rabbi Judah ha-Nasi. Tradition ascribes the compilation of the Babylonian Talmud in its present form to two Babylonian sages, Rav Ashi and Ravina. Ashi was president of the Sura Academy from 375 to 427 CE. The work begun by Ashi was completed by Ravina, who is traditionally regarded as the final Amoraic expounder. Accordingly, traditionalists argue that Ravina’s death in 499 CE is the latest possible date for the completion of the redaction of the Talmud. However, even on the most traditional view a few passages are regarded as the work of a group of rabbis who edited the Talmud after the end of the Amoraic period, known as the Saboraim or Rabbanan Savora'e (meaning "reasoners" or "considerers").
The question as to when the Gemara was finally put into its present form is not settled among modern scholars. Some, like Louis Jacobs, argue that the main body of the Gemara is not simple reportage of conversations, as it purports to be, but a highly elaborate structure contrived by the Saboraim, who must therefore be regarded as the real authors. On this view the text did not reach its final form until around 700. Some modern scholars use the term Stammaim (from the Hebrew Stam, meaning "closed", "vague" or "unattributed") for the authors of unattributed statements in the Gemara. (See eras within Jewish law.)
The site that I referenced before basically addresses and answers any of the dissembling regarding any of these comon slurs against the Talmud and the last two posters have as well...and thank you gentlemen for posting...which as I am sure you also know is a mitzvah and may Hashem bless you for doing so. | |
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