I can't speak or read Hebrew fluently, but I can tell you in the limted understanding of what I have, and based on the information that this rabbis lectures gave me and that of others since, I cannot understand how someone who really knew their Jewish faith would become what is essentially a Christian, call it a Messianic Jew, or completed Jew, but the concept is the same...it is essentially Christology intermingled, in my opinion unneccesarily, with Christianity.

And what I don't get is if a schmuck like me who was not raised in a Jewish environment with the culture, with the language, can see the problem inherant, the vast dichotomy between the two faiths and the simple truths inherant in Judaism on its own that require no "doctoring" from Christology, why a Jew cannot.

I would like to know if in your 36 years how much of a Jewish education you had? How much Hebrew School did you attend? Did you have a bat mitzvah? After that? I mean as you and even I, a frozen Canadian goy from up in Oh Canada know, there is being raised Jewish and being raised Jewish so when someone comes on a forum and says it, we should know what it means. How long did you attend shul? Did you?

Not sure which theology has a take on the Jews/Israel holding up the second coming Fidd. News ta me..
Which Christian movements are promoting to kill off all the Jews???

In contrast, I have seen a few truly "born and raised Catholics", and they seem so counter-cultural, it's unbelievable. I say that in a positive way, though.

When it comes down to it, my stance on religion at the end of the day is that whatever ends up making a person feel centered and complete and a good citizen and - in their heart and mind - at one with the Divine, is up to them...and a good thing. So long as they permit their neighbour to do the same, and do not attempt to misrepresent their neighbours attempts to do the same.

Well it's obviously not a regular practice these days except among rather extreme groups...but it was regular practice for about two millenia to convert, or kill. After the Passion play, the usual medieval fun and games was to tar and feather the local Jewry and run them out of town...cut down on loan repayments that way. I trust you'll spare me the encyclopedic research on the history of Christianity as regards the Jewish problem at this late hour...

Ash_M: Could you get over your anti-Christian sentiment, please. You know well that this poster doesn't represent the majority of Christianity, yet you choose to suggest he does. I've met Jews who are violently anti-Christian. Do I suppose that bigotry represents all Judaism? Of course not. Well not unless I want to prove or suggest that "Jews' are bad. Then I'd use it.

Whatever you are, it is a fine example of Christian Hatefulness and Intolerance. Why I and many others look at your religion with mixed feelings. We see many nice people. But we see many people, such as yourself, (SoulUnion) filled with hate, sure that their religion is right and that all others will go to hell.

I don't beleive that SoulUnion represents the majority of Christianity.

I have recently met a man who is a part of this small sect. He argues he is Jewish, but he believes in Christ and his teachings....how is that Jewish ?

I am not familiar if they believe all or only part of the NT, but I am curious. When I ask him about his faith he seems to take offence and will not explain how the two faiths can be one in the same.

Anyone heard of this before, or care to shed some light on the matter ?

Not according to those who self-describe as Messianic Jews. And that for me is the bottom line. THEY, once followers of Judaism in some for or another and Jewish by birth or adoption who then believe the Jesus/Yeshua is the Christ/Messiah claim to be "Messianic Jews". Most continue with the same Jewish rituals as before. With a ton of respect, what YOU think ain't worth spit. Who died and made you Chief Rabbi?

Jewish is a race you are Jewish by birth or adoption as I said that is it. No matter what anyone has told you.

What Is Judaism?

Level: Basic

What is Judaism? What does it mean to be a Jew? Most people, both Jewish and gentile, would instinctively say that Judaism is a religion. And yet, there are militant atheists who insist that they are Jews! Is Judaism a race? If you were to say so, most Jews would think you were an antisemite! So what is Judaism?
Is Judaism a Religion?

Clearly, there is a religion called Judaism, a set of ideas about the world and the way we should live our lives that is called "Judaism." It is studied in Religious Studies courses and taught to Jewish children in Hebrew schools. See What do Jews Believe? for details. There is a lot of flexibility about certain aspects of those beliefs, and a lot of disagreement about specifics, but that flexibility is built into the organized system of belief that is Judaism.

However, many people who call themselves Jews do not believe in that religion at all! More than half of all Jews in Israel today call themselves "secular," and don't believe in G-d or any of the religious beliefs of Judaism. Half of all Jews in the United States don't belong to any synagogue. They may practice some of the rituals of Judaism and celebrate some of the holidays, but they don't think of these actions as religious activities.

The most traditional Jews and the most liberal Jews and everyone in between would agree that these secular people are still Jews, regardless of their disbelief. See Who is a Jew? Clearly, then, there is more to being Jewish than just a religion.
Are Jews a Race?

In the 1980s, the United States Supreme Court ruled that Jews are a race, at least for purposes of certain anti-discrimination laws. Their reasoning: at the time these laws were passed, people routinely spoke of the "Jewish race" or the "Italian race" as well as the "Negro race," so that is what the legislators intended to protect.

But many Jews were deeply offended by that decision, offended by any hint that Jews could be considered a race. The idea of Jews as a race brings to mind nightmarish visions of Nazi Germany, where Jews were declared to be not just a race, but an inferior race that had to be rounded up into ghettos and exterminated like vermin.

But setting aside the emotional issues, Jews are clearly not a race.

Race is a genetic distinction, and refers to people with shared ancestry and shared genetic traits. You can't change your race; it's in your DNA. I could never become black or Asian no matter how much I might want to.

Common ancestry is not required to be a Jew. Many Jews worldwide share common ancestry, as shown by genetic research; however, you can be a Jew without sharing this common ancestry, for example, by converting. Thus, although I could never become black or Asian, blacks and Asians have become Jews (Sammy Davis Jr. and Connie Chung).
Is It a Culture or Ethnic Group?

Most secular American Jews think of their Jewishness as a matter of culture or ethnicity. When they think of Jewish culture, they think of the food, of the Yiddish language, of some limited holiday observances, and of cultural values like the emphasis on education.

Those secular American Jews would probably be surprised to learn that much of what they think of as Jewish culture is really just Ashkenazic Jewish culture, the culture of Jews whose ancestors come from one part of the world. Jews have lived in many parts of the world and have developed many different traditions. As a Sephardic friend likes to remind me, Yiddish is not part of his culture, nor are bagels and lox, chopped liver, latkes, gefilte fish or matzah ball soup. His idea of Jewish cooking includes bourekas, phyllo dough pastries filled with cheese or spinach. His ancestors probably wouldn't know what to do with a dreidel.

There are certainly cultural traits and behaviors that are shared by many Jews, that make us feel more comfortable with other Jews. Jews in many parts of the world share many of those cultural aspects. However, that culture is not shared by all Jews all over the world, and people who do not share that culture are no less Jews because of it. Thus, Judaism must be something more than a culture or an ethnic group.
Are the Jews a Nation?

The traditional explanation, and the one given in the Torah, is that the Jews are a nation. The Hebrew word, believe it or not, is "goy." The Torah and the rabbis used this term not in the modern sense meaning a territorial and political entity, but in the ancient sense meaning a group of people with a common history, a common destiny, and a sense that we are all connected to each other.

Unfortunately, in modern times, the term "nation" has become too contaminated by ugly, jingoistic notions of a country obsessed with its own superiority and bent on world domination. Because of this notion of "nationhood," Jews are often falsely accused of being disloyal to their own country in favor of their loyalty to the Jewish "nation," of being more loyal to Israel than to their home country. Some have gone so far as to use this distorted interpretation of "nationhood" to prove that Jews do, or seek to, control the world. In fact, a surprising number of antisemitic websites and newsgroup postings linked to this page (in an earlier form) as proof of their antisemitic delusions that Jews are nationalistic, that Israel is a colonial power and so forth.

Because of the inaccurate connotations that have attached themselves to the term "nation," the term can no longer be used to accurately describe the Jewish people.
The Jewish People are a Family

It is clear from the discussion above that there is a certain amount of truth in the claims that it is a religion, a race, or an ethnic group, none of these descriptions is entirely adequate to describe what connects Jews to other Jews. And yet, almost all Jews feel a sense of connectedness to each other that many find hard to explain, define, or even understand. Traditionally, this interconnectedness was understood as "nationhood" or "peoplehood," but those terms have become so distorted over time that they are no longer accurate.

Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz has suggested a better analogy for the Jewish people: We are a family. See the third essay in his recent book, We Jews: Who Are We and What Should We Do. But though this is a new book, it is certainly not a new concept: throughout the Bible and Jewish literature, the Jewish people are referred to as "the Children of Israel," a reference to the fact that we are all the physical or spiritual descendants of the Patriarch Jacob, who was later called Israel. In other words, we are part of his extended family.

Like a family, we don't always agree with each other. We often argue and criticize each other. We hold each other to the very highest standards, knowing that the shortcomings of any member of the family will be held against all of us. But when someone outside of the family unfairly criticizes a family member or the family as a whole, we are quick to join together in opposition to that unfair criticism.

When members of our "family" suffer or are persecuted, we all feel their pain. For example, in the 1980s, when Africa was suffering from droughts and famines, many Jews around the world learned for the first time about the Beta Israel, the Jews of Ethiopia. Their religion, race and culture are quite different from ours, and we had not even known that they existed before the famine. And yet, our hearts went out to them as our fellow Jews during this period of famine, like distant cousins we had never met, and Jews from around the world helped them to emigrate to Israel.

When a member of our "family" does something illegal, immoral or shameful, we all feel the shame, and we all feel that it reflects on us. As Jews, many of us were embarrassed by the Monica Lewinsky scandal, or the Jack Abramoff affair, because Lewinsky and Abramoff are Jews. We were shocked when Israeli Prime Minister Yitzchak Rabin was killed by a Jew, unable to believe that one Jew would ever kill another member of the "family."

And when a member of our "family" accomplishes something significant, we all feel proud. A perfect example of Jews (even completely secular ones) delighting in the accomplishments of our fellow Jews is the perennial popularity of Adam Sandler's Chanukkah songs, listing famous people who are Jewish. We all take pride in scientists like Albert Einstein or political leaders like Joe Lieberman (we don't all agree with his politics or his religious views, but we were all proud to see him on a national ticket). And is there a Jew who doesn't know (or at least feel pride upon learning) that Sandy Koufax declined to pitch in a World Series game that fell on Yom Kippur?

A Jew* in all the normal and Jewish sense of being a Jew comes to the belief that Jesus is the Messiah and in his heart and soul and conscience and mind and whole beingbelieves this to be the truth and accepts it as a revelation from God. In my world such a person is a Jew who believes Jesus is the Messiah. They believe themselves to be a Jew still. They speak of a sense of fulfillment of their "Jewishness". They seem to be as "Jewish" as they were before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Jews

Messianic Judaism is a religious movement whose adherents believe that Jesus of Nazareth, whom they call Yeshua, is both the resurrected Jewish Messiah and their Divine Savior.[1][2][3]

The central characteristic defining the Messianic Jewish movement as Christian, rather than Jewish, is its belief in the divinity of their Messiah, Jesus.[4] This central tenet of belief is seen by the great majority of Christians and Jews as being the defining distinction between the two religions.[5][6] This is also the opinion of the Supreme Court of Israel regarding immediate and automatic eligibility for Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return.[7]

Similarly, Messianic Judaism differs widely from mainstream Christianity in adherents' observation of Jewish Law which is often discouraged in churches.[8] These observances include observing the Jewish Sabbath, abstaining from pork, shellfish, and other foods banned by Jewish law, and observing Jewish holidays.

As of 1993 there were 160,000 adherents of Messianic Judaism in the United States and 350,000 worldwide. As of 2003, there were at least 150 Messianic synagogues in the U.S. and over 400 worldwide.[9] By 2008, the number of Messianics in the United States was around a quarter million.[10] The number of Messianic Jews in Israel is reported to be anywhere between 6,000 and 15,000 members.[11][12]

Although many Messianic Jews are ethnically Jewish and argue that Messianic Judaism is a sect of Judaism,[13] the various streams of Judaism are unanimous in their rejection of Messianism as a form of Judaism.[14][6] Christians and Jews consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Christianity.[5]

Jewish objections

Jewish objections to Messianic Judaism are numerous and often begin with objections to the term "Messianic Judaism" itself: It is objected that Judaism is a messianic religion, but that its messiah is not Jesus,[4] thus the term is misleading.[73]

Use of "Judaism" in the term is also considered misleading and as a subversive tactic used for missionary purposes. Messianic Jews are only considered eligible for the State of Israel's Law of Return if they can also claim Jewish descent[7]. An assistant to one of the two lawyers involved with an April 2008 Supreme Court of Israel case explained to the Jerusalem Post that Messianics were "entitled to automatic new immigrant status and citizenship precisely because they were not Jews as defined by the Law of Return, but rather because they were the offspring of Jewish fathers" [74].

Several anti-missionary organizations, such as Outreach Judaism and Jews for Judaism oppose Messianic Judaism on theological grounds, usually from an Orthodox Jewish perspective. In recent years these organizations have noticeably shifted their focus from countering the missionizing of Jews in the name of Christianity to countering the spread of Messianic Judaism. The Jewish anti-missionary organizations view the latter (Messianic Judaism) as a more threatening and subversive form of apostacy than the former (openly missionizing in the name of Christianity).

Denominations and organizations

All denominations of Judaism, as well as national Jewish organizations reject Messianic Judaism as a form of Judaism.[14][6][75]

According to the Central Conference of American Rabbis (Reform):

"For us in the Jewish community, anyone who claims that Jesus is their savior is no longer a Jew and is an apostate. Through that belief she has placed herself outside the Jewish community. Whether she cares to define herself as a Christian or as a 'fulfilled Jew,' 'Messianic Jew,' or any other designation is irrelevant; to us, she is clearly a Christian."[76]

Concerning Christian-Jewish reconciliation and Christian missions to the Jews, Emil Fackenheim wrote:

"…Except in relations with Christians, the Christ of Christianity is not a Jewish issue. There simply can be no dialogue worthy of the name unless Christians accept — nay, treasure — the fact that Jews through the two millennia of Christianity have had an agenda of their own. There can be no Jewish-Christian dialogue worthy of the name unless one Christian activity is abandoned, missions to the Jews. It must be abandoned, moreover, not as a temporary strategy but in principle, as a bimillennial theological mistake. The cost of that mistake in Christian love and Jewish blood one hesitates to contemplate. …A post-Holocaust Jew can still view Christian attempts to convert Jews as sincere and well intended. But even as such they are no longer acceptable: They have become attempts to do in one way what Hitler did in another."[77]

According to a 1998 Audit of Antisemitic Incidents issued by Canadian B'nai Brith,

"One of the more alarming trends in antisemitic activity in Canada in 1998 was the growing number of incidents involving messianic organizations posing as "synagogues". These missionizing organizations are in fact evangelical Christian proselytizing groups, whose purpose is specifically to target members of the Jewish community for conversion. They fraudulently represent themselves as Jews, and these so-called synagogues are elaborately disguised Christian churches."[78]

Any Rabbi who teaches against the books of Moses is doing his followers a disservice. I challange that Rabbi to read the words and see that he is wrong. You do not stop being the child of Jews just because you go to church. You are Jewish by birth as it is writen and if one part of the writings the Rabbi reads from is to be made out to be untrue then the whole Scroll should be tossed out.
In the begining God Created and the word used for God is a singular plural. That rabbi is flawed in his teaching and all that follow him should read the books to know what is true. Quote who ever you want I am right and they are wrong. Jesus taught only from the Jewish writings and everyone knows Christians are people of the book.

tmf, we'll have to agree to disagree I think. I don't believe myself qualified to judge who a person is before God and whether they are entitled to call themselves "Jew". As I've stated before, except for overwhelming evidence to the contrary, if they call themselves "Jews" I accept that they are better qualified to know the state of their own hearts, their own faith, and their own relationship with God. At such moments legal - or legalistic - definitions hardly matter.

No one can say the blessing without using the singular plural form of God and that lordship is one.

David was not talking about his self when he wrote "the Lord said to my lord" he was talking about our lord Jesus. Rabbi should know

I do not care if there are whole worlds about this topic if they disagree with me they are wrong because I am in agreement with the God who wrote the book.

I'd get my tiers changed by a butcher if that butcher knew how to change a tire and what did your doctor do to support his self in school? He may have worked in a store no rule aginst it.

Do you speak or read Hebrew? I sure don't. But I do happen to know a few people like these rabbis who do. Apparently they seem to know that book a little better than you do. You go on believing though

Yes I've been a part of biblical studies for over 20 years and there are books about each word in the first five books. The first word for God used is a singular pural I am too sleepy to go on. If you want to believe that Rabbi and other followers of that form of thought peace between us. I think if your brother came over to me and said you were not his brother I would go to your parent and ask. I would not go to your brother's friends or children. I would go to your parents who would say yes he is my son. According to the book Messianic Jews are Jews.

Question:


Dear Rabbi Singer,

A Messianic Jew is working overtime to try to convince me that I need JC. She recently showed me Genesis 1:26, “Let US make man in OUR image,” stating that JC was part of creation with G-d, plural Us and Our being the proof. Can you explain the plural in this verse to me? I want to have an intelligent answer. I am trying very hard to learn more of my Jewish religion, as I was raised in a non-religious home. The only Bible I own is the one she gave me and it is a King James.


Answer:

No area of Jewish literature could be more inhospitable to the Christian doctrine of the triune godhead than the Torah and the writings of its prophetic messengers. It is on the strength of these sacred texts that the Jew has preserved the concept of one, single, unique Creator God Who alone is worthy of worship. Understandably, missionaries undertake a formidable task when they seek to “prove” the doctrine of the Trinity from the Jewish scriptures. No prophet went silent on the uncompromising radical monotheism demanded by the God of Israel. The Jewish people, therefore, to whom these sublime declarations about the nature of the Almighty were given, knew nothing about a trinity of persons in the godhead.

Because the prophets relayed their divine message on the nature of God with such timeless clarity, few texts in Tanach could hold any promise for the church to raise up as a support for their teachings on the Trinity. Understandably, though, the defenders of Christendom flaunted the very few verses that they managed to somehow skew into a supposed support for this alien doctrine.

One of the most popular verses used by missionaries as a proof text for the Trinity is Genesis 1:26. This verse appears in missionary literature quite often in spite of the fact that this argument has been answered countless times throughout the centuries. Let’s examine Genesis 1:26.

And God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and they shall rule over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the sky, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”

With limited knowledge of the Jewish scriptures, missionaries advance the above verse in as evidence that there was a plurality in the godhead which was responsible for creation. What other explanation could adequately account for the Bible’s use of the plural pronouns such as “us” and “our” in this verse?

This argument, however, is grievously flawed. In fact, a great number of Trinitarian Christian scholars have long abandoned the notion that Genesis 1:26 implies a plurality of persons in the godhead. Rather, Christian scholars overwhelmingly agree that the plural pronoun in this verse is a reference to God’s ministering angels who were created previously, and the Almighty spoke majestically in the plural, consulting His heavenly court. Let’s read the comments of a number of preeminent Trinitarian Bible scholars on this subject. For example, the evangelical Christian author Gordon J. Wenham, who is no foe of the Trinity and authored a widely respected two-volume commentary on the Book of Genesis, writes on this verse,

Christians have traditionally seen [Genesis 1:26] as adumbrating [foreshadowing] the Trinity. It is now universally admitted that this was not what the plural meant to the original author.1

If you had attended any one of my lectures you would know that the New International Version is hardly a Bible that can be construed as being friendly to Judaism. Yet, the NIV Study Bible also writes in its commentary on Genesis 1:26,

Us . . . Our . . . Our. God speaks as the Creator-king, announcing His crowning work to the members of His heavenly court. (see 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8; I Kings 22:19-23; Job 15:8; Jeremiah 23:18)2

Charles Caldwell Ryrie, a highly regarded dispensationalist professor of Biblical Studies at the Philadelphia College of Bible and author of the widely read Bible commentary, The Ryrie Study Bible, writes in his short and to-the-point annotation on Genesis 1:26,

Us . . . Our. Plurals of majesty.3

The Liberty Annotated Study Bible, a Bible commentary published by the Reverend Jerry Falwell’s Liberty University, similarly remarks on this verse,

The plural pronoun “Us” is most likely a majestic plural from the standpoint of Hebrew grammar and syntax.4

The 10-volume commentary by Keil and Delitzsch is considered by many to be the most influential exposition on the “Old Testament” in evangelical circles. Yet in its commentary on Genesis 1:26, we find,

The plural “We” was regarded by the fathers and earlier theologians almost unanimously as indicative of the Trinity; modern commentators, on the contrary, regard it either as pluralis majestatis . . . No other explanation is left, therefore, than to regard it as pluralis majestatis . . . .5

The question that immediately comes to mind is: What would compel these evangelical scholars -- all of whom are Trinitarian -- to determinedly conclude that Genesis 1:26 does not suggest the Trinity, but rather a majestic address to the angelic hosts of heaven? Why would the comments of the above conservative Christian writers so perfectly harmonize with the Jewish teaching on this verse?

The answer to this question is simple. If you search the Bible you will find that when the Almighty speaks of “us” or “our,” He is addressing His ministering angels. In fact, only two chapters later, God continues to use the pronoun “us” as He speaks with His angels. At the end of the third chapter of Genesis the Almighty relates to His angels that Adam and his wife have eaten from the Tree of Knowledge and must therefore be prevented from eating from the Tree of Life as well; for if man would gain access to the Tree of Life he will “become like one of us.” The Creator then instructs his angels known as Cherubim to stand at the gate of the Garden of Eden waving a flaming sword so that mankind is prevented from entering the Garden and eating from the Tree of Life. Let’s examine Genesis 3:22-24.

Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever” -- therefore the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the Garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

This use of the majestic plural in Genesis 3:22-24 is what is intended by the NIV Study Bible’s annotation on Genesis 1:26 (above). At the end of its comment on this verse, the NIV Study Bible provides a number of Bible sources from the Jewish scriptures to support its position that “God speaks as the Creator-king, announcing His crowning work to the members of His heavenly court.” The verses cited are: Genesis 3:22, 11:7, Isaiah 6:8, I Kings 22:19-23, Job 15:8, and Jeremiah 23:18. These verses convey to the attentive Bible reader that the heavenly abode of the Creator is filled with the ministering angels who attend the Almighty and to whom He repeatedly refers when using the plural pronoun “Us.”6

I will close this letter with one final note. Outsiders often wonder what binding force keeps the Jewish people united in faith. This is not so odd a question when we consider the inner conflict that has followed our people throughout our extraordinary history. Bear in mind that regardless of the turbulent quarrels that fester among us, the oneness of God remains the binding thread which unites the Jewish people in history and witness. The teachings of the Torah were designed to set forever in the national conscience of the Jewish people the idea that God is one alone and therefore the only object of our devotion and worship.

Sincerely yours,

Rabbi Tovia Singer



Footnotes:

Click on the footnote to return to the article


1Gordon J. Wenham, Word Biblical Commentary on Genesis, Word Books, 1987, p. 27.

2NIV Study Bible, Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1985, p. 7.

3Charles Caldwell Ryrie, The Ryrie Study Bible (Dallas Theological Seminary), Chicago: Moody Press, 1978, p. 9.

4Jerry Falwell (Executive Editor), Liberty Annotated Study Bible, Lynchburg: Liberty University, 1988, p. 8.

5Keil & Delitzsch, Commentary on the Old Testament, Peabody: Hendric., 1989, Vol. I, p. 62.

6A similar verse describing God as He converses with His ministering angels is found in the beginning of the sixth chapter of Isaiah, which reads,

In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the Temple. Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew . . . Also, I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.” (Isaiah 6:1, 8)

no you do not you want to submit yourself to him because you do not want to be found wrong and he tell you you are right. If you wanted to you could submit to any one or study it out and stop being lazy.