| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/22/2008 6:03:49 AM |
"In lowland areas hunting by the registered packs makes only a minor contribution to the management of the fox population"
So roughly 10% of the pre-breeding popualtion. This shines throught the usual masquarade of, 'hunting is to keep foxes down'
I don't suppose they also gave figures for the number of foxes dispatched by other means?? Are they more successful at keeping fox numbers down!!!!! | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/22/2008 6:09:12 AM |
Hunting is not an upper class pastime it is a rural pastime.. A lot of people who hunt have to borrow or rent their horses..
And who pays for the upkeep of the hounds, the hunt support (People on quads and protect the hunters) and the other kit required for one dead fox?
Don't know many people who live and work rurally who can afford a car or a house.
Every fox hunter i've ever known is a rich ignorant fool.
friend lives out in the country, some fox managed to get into his chicken run, bit off all their heads for fun, did not actually eat any.
When food is plentiful a fox will kill everything it can and bury what it doesn't eat for times when it has slim pickings. The aforementioned fox was disturbed.
A gun shot wound may take days to kill the fox.
A shot from an air rifle might, a 12bore blows a hole the size of a football in it. The stress from a hunt is just as likely to die from stress and the inability to hunt from wounds sustained while escaping from 'the hunt.'
& now many working dogs are not being bred at all.
Would that possibly be because they aren't needed.
If a dog was bred for killing a fox it would have long legs and large jaws e.g German shepard, bred to attack wolves to protect sheep.
Could destroy any arguement given but it's a waste of time, some people like killing for killings sake.
Reckon they should join the army. | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/22/2008 6:16:43 AM | You try try reading it yourself. I don't have time at the moment. It mentions various methods. But also as this professor puts it
""The number of foxes killed by hunts each year is minuscule," Professor Harris told BBC News online. "Foxes regulate their numbers very effectively.
Hunting dogs number 20,000
"If you kill lots of foxes, they produce more cubs. Likewise if numbers are high, females will slow down breeding."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3929441.stm
Could destroy any arguement given but it's a waste of time, some people like killing for killings sake.
Reckon they should join the army.
Exactly Charlie.
As Burns says
"Our tentative conclusion is that lamping using rifles, if carried out properly and in appropriate circumstances, has fewer adverse welfare implications than hunting, including digging-out. " | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/22/2008 6:23:12 AM | Crikey I thought this thread was long dead, joyfully gone to extinction with Tony Banks R.I.P.
However it aint so once again I'm going to stick my two cents worth in.
Hunting foxes by hounds is pest control, no more no less.
As a professional hunter (in the past) I can assure anyone that the most effective and painless way for a fox to meet its end is in the midst of a pack of hounds.
That hunting with hounds is done by people who seem to enjoy the activity seems to be the main bone of contention.
Espescially for people from an urban background with a socialist bent.
Tony Banks was the first to admit (to his dubious credit) that it was not an issue of sport or anything else but a class issue.
He in my opinion missed out by a hundred years or so, he would have loved to have been a child chimney sweep, and then had something genuine to complain about.
As a professional trapper a wild fox pelt was worth up to £30 to me twenty five years ago, purely and simply because of the quality. In todays money that would be worth three times as much at least.
The quality was achieved by the hunts taking out the less fit and able specimens.
The foxes that survived were a much healthier selection.
As to whether a fox is an evil animal intent on causing misery and mayhem within the chicken population of the UK, I'd be delighted to tell you about (it isn't) but I bet I'll spend the next few days fending off some vitriolic attacks by meat eating animal lovers.
OK let it roll..... | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/22/2008 6:26:21 AM |
Hunting foxes by hounds is pest control, no more no less.
Burns says
"In lowland areas hunting by the registered packs makes only a minor contribution to the management of the fox population"
As a professional hunter (in the past) I can assure anyone that the most effective and painless way for a fox to meet its end is in the midst of a pack of hounds.
Burns says
The evidence which we have seen suggests that, in the case of the killing of a fox by hounds above ground, death is not always effected by a single bite to the neck or shoulders by the leading hound resulting in the dislocation of the cervical vertebrae. In a proportion of cases it results from massive injuries to the chest and vital organs, although insensibility and death will normally follow within a matter of seconds once the fox is caught. There is a lack of firm scientific evidence about the effect on the welfare of a fox of being closely pursued, caught and killed above ground by hounds. We are satisfied, nevertheless, that this experience seriously compromises the welfare of the fox...
It has been argued that, in view of what is known about the fox's ecology and social systems, the hunted fox, whether being pursued by hounds or being dug out, is bound to experience fear and distress..
Because the fox’s carcass is usually "broken up" by the hounds it is bound to be difficult to obtain conclusive evidence on this matter. But the post mortem evidence which we have seen does at least suggest that - as we had tended to conclude from video footage - it is an over-simplification to say that foxes are almost invariably killed by the leading hound grabbing the fox's neck. Two post mortems carried out for us by the Department of Clinical Veterinary Science at the University of Bristol showed very few injuries to the head and neck area and indicated that death was caused by massive injuries to other vital organs....
Our tentative conclusion is that lamping using rifles, if carried out properly and in appropriate circumstances, has fewer adverse welfare implications than hunting, including digging-out. | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/22/2008 6:56:11 AM | As an ex trapper you'd have been told by your older peers that foxes went into decline when there were no hunts as farmers took to shooting them, so not sure what 'you're saying'
As for the most humane way to kill a fox with 'A nip to the back of its neck' i'm presuming as this is the way hounds kill (Allegedly) Dogs dont nip necks.
How many pitbulls have you seen with scars that would have been left by a 'nip to the neck', they go for the throat, leaving the fox to bleed out while it recieves other horrendous injuries. Its far more humane to gas them in they're lairs and you can target problem foxes.
The hunts achieve remove less fit and able specimens, that would be true apart from the fact that a hunt will encroach on more than one foxes territory and have the chance of taking a fit and healthy fox by suprise.
Espescially for people from an urban background with a socialist bent.
Yup I know a lot of farmers who love having horses tearing through their crops, displacing ploughed fields and disturbing stock (A sheep is likely to be so stressed as to lose its unborn lamb)
Its nice for farmers who get paid by the hunt for use of the land, actual farmers who use their land dislike hunts on their land. | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/22/2008 7:04:27 AM | I'm a big softy and think its disgusting to let hounds rip a poor exhausted fox to bits, because thats what they do, they run the heart out of the fox whose only crime is to find food for itself and its young.
Foxes have a right to live as any creature man or beast.
If any farmer thinks there over riden with foxes then they could kill a few humanly, theres no need to behave like savages or treat there hounds like they were untamed killers who don't get fed.
I actually like foxes, i think there cute, if there a pest to any farmer then the farmer should put fencing up.
As for the case od large fields with roaming sheep, you can still have large fencing surrounding,yes it costs money but so what. | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/22/2008 7:50:33 AM | Some farmers like the hunt others don't.
Take into consideration the toll taken in the lambing season by foxes against the numbers that miscarry.
"actual farmers who use their land dislike hunts on their land" ?
All farmers use their land for their maximum gain (as does any business man) when did you last see a farmer going to work on a pushbike ? More likely a new Saab! | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/22/2008 8:02:36 AM | Msg 58.
Foxes have the right to live as any other creature.
You live by the sword, you die by the sword.
Why do people complain when any other animal or being is treated by it's own standards rather than theirs?
I don't hear you coming out to bat for the rabbits, rats or voles or do they not get a hearing in the debate?
I like foxes too, at one time I had a vixen coming to my back porch who'd eat out of my hand. But don't kid yourself, if I'd have been small enough she'd have eaten me!
As for the fields full of roaming sheep, yes lets just fence it all off, have you costed out an idea like that.
The cost of which would have to be borne by the end consumer, how much are you paying for lamb at present? | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/22/2008 10:49:30 AM |
All farmers use their land for their maximum gain
Unfortunately maximum gain for 'farmers' who have very large farms get very large subsides for 'set aside' and hedgerows.
Small/medium farms have to produce as the subsides wont cover bills.
I don't hear you coming out to bat for the rabbits, rats or voles
That'll be cos toffs don't chase them around before killing them, they get shot. | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/24/2008 8:26:59 AM | There is another thread on here re people training dogs for the purpose of fighting each other to the death or until one is so seriously injured it can fight no more! How many of you pro fox hunting people find that exceptable not many I would guess... so how is it then that chasing a fox which is a wild dog with a pack of hounds (not one on one) until its lungs are at bursting point.... having blocked up as many bolt holes as possible and even if it makes it to safety ,digging it out and throwing it to the pack. don't believe that still doesn't happen! in the name of sport! where is the sport? It may nolonger be just upperclass twats that indulge, as with most things..... but cowards that most of them are ,give them a fox and any thing to kill it with where they get blood on thier hands (ie not a gun)most of them wouldn't have the guts...... Also most pro hunt people have never seen happen in real life.Would their oppinion be the same if they had!!...... doubt it....
Second point ... if a fox is vermin ,then it is , where it lives, the country or the town has no relevance or is that to clear consciences. Some town foxes do very well scavenging in bins, killing the odd domestic pet etc.... but others are thin,mange ridden animals so culling the weak arguement doesn't hold water.
To my mind the vermin problem that needs to be addressed is the many millions of Rats , Mice,Grey Squirrals( rats with bushy tails) and Pigeons( flying rats ) but of course there is no 'Sport' in that! | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/24/2008 11:35:53 AM | Any killing of animals for 'sport' is barbaric,and belongs in the history books with all the other pathetic ways mankind has sought his entertainment.They are toffs,and/or ignorant egotists.
Just respect animals,all of them.Pigeons/seagulls etc are only termed ''flying rats' because of the mess WE leave on our streets etc.
I see some kid throwing stones at seagulls today.PARENTS,teach your kids to respect,and not be dumb/ignorant. | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/24/2008 11:42:28 AM | | sworry but hunting with dogs is not only upper class yr average joe bloggs does it do youn share these views on cattle breed for our consumption | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/24/2008 1:31:07 PM | Yes.Hence the /and
I just wish these people would realise the pain they cause,for the want of ''sport''
I expected somone to bring up the oft used 'meat production' argument.Yep,i eat meat.This does not negate the issue with hunting animals for 'sport' | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/24/2008 1:33:16 PM | message 60, its not a topic about bats or rabbits,otherwise i would stick up for them as i'm a animal lover.
I'm not a lamb eater so i don't know what it costs, it can cost as much as they choose lol. | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/24/2008 2:01:18 PM | The ban on fox hunting was nothing at all to do with animal welfare. That much was admitted during the "debate", not one single fox was ever going to be saved by this ban. It wasn't about animal cruelty, it was legislation of spite, nothing else. The hunting ban was a ban on red coats, it was revenge for the miners strike defeat.
You want to talk about unnecessary animal suffering then? OK, what about halal slaughter? Because stunning an animal is deemed religiously unacceptable the fully conscious tethered creature has to watch its life blood splashing away when its throat is cut, this typically takes three to four minutes before the creature passes out.
The hunting ban was the politics of envy and revenge. It's OK to do that but don't you dare question the likes of halal practises because you will be deemed racist an non PC! | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/24/2008 2:11:43 PM | | long as they don't set them hounds on me i ain't fussed. Farmers will just shoot erm when they go killing chickens anyway, least they get a chance against the dogs as there thick buggers. | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/24/2008 3:56:28 PM | Who am I to judge other peoples morals?
I never see huntsmen complaining about inner city people who mug people for their mobiles or simply kick the shit out some old person for fun. | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/24/2008 4:05:57 PM | | Simply no excuse for it, the twats who take pleasure in watching a poor defenceless animal suffer in the name of sport are vile human beings. | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/24/2008 4:23:52 PM | I have been to several fox hunts as a child, and i agree with what my grandpa said about foxhunting, that once the fox was in its hole the hounds should give up & leave it be.
I did read somewhere that SOME hunters will lay out glass etc so that the padding on the fox's paws will get cut & it will slow them down so the hounds can catch it. | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/25/2008 8:36:06 AM |
Fvk 'em!
Foxes are just vermin. They aren't really like Basil Brush you know.
WE act like vermin,polluting the world,spewing our waste everywhere,shoving our refuse everywhere.
An animals right to live shouldn't be judged by their 'cute factor' anyway. | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/25/2008 1:37:27 PM |
Ive read some stupid ridiculous statements on here but that takes the biscuit.
The comment you quoted is perfectly correct and accurate.Therefore it cannot possibly be ridiculous.
Using a pack is the quickest surest way of killing a fox. It would be inhumane to use any other method, but this is what the government has forced upon us.
So, the next time a shot fox dies in agony days after being hit, it can thank the townie ignoramuses. | |
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