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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/28/2008 2:36:07 AM | "I consider a humane method to be one which kills the fox with the minimum amount of guaranteed physical suffering."
As ypou say, and as Burns says,
"In the case of shooting, it seems to be generally agreed that lamping with a high powered rifle, if carried out properly and in appropriate circumstances, is the most humane way of killing a fox."
Agreeing with Burns again?
"A pack, as Burns accepts, kills the fox within seconds of contact. The report mentions the fact that Burns was not interested in the moral of hunting, and therefore the question of 'humane' methods does not arise."
But the question of welfare does, and so
"the hunted fox, whether being pursued by hounds or being dug out, is bound to experience fear and distress"
Hence the conclusion that hunting is not the most humane.
I expect you would be in agreement that the bits you like and not the bits you dont
The Inquiry also conclused that 'a quick snip to the neck' was not always how a kills ends.
There was difficulty over trying to find a conclusion, obviosuly, but given the evidence they looked they still reached one aboot the welfare aspects of hunting versus other types.
reasonable objections is sbjective, since he didnt name them, we cannot know, but you deduce as you would that packs would be the 'best' method. I am sure you do think that is brilliant
The 2 points that you stated in other posts were hunting is the most humane Burns says
"In the case of shooting, it seems to be generally agreed that lamping with a high powered rifle, if carried out properly and in appropriate circumstances, is the most humane way of killing a fox."
And the hunting is all aboot pest control, numbers do not back this up.
"In lowland areas hunting by the registered packs makes only a minor contribution to the management of the fox population" | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/28/2008 7:56:33 AM | Phhh...
Just try googling (Maybe you'll understand my statistics that way.)
Mink and hamsters, won't be anything there. Mink are probably the most vicious killing machines in our countryside. They have to be kept apart or they'll kill each other. There used to be a cash reward for every one shot they are so damaging.
'Rabbits crops and myxomatosis' Will show you crop loss. That'll be where the phrase 'breeding like rabbits comes from....
One pair of rabbits can produce 84 rabbits a year, age before sexual maturity, that'll be about 12-15 weeks, do the maths yourself :)
'Lost art of hedge making' (Need wire fences to keep livestock in now, Hedges are there to look pretty for townies.) The 86 year old would obviously know how to layer hedges to not only live and protect livestock from high winds and weather but also keep them where they're meant to be.
Overall stats on '% lambs killed by foxes', if you had a problem fox, only way to deal with one of those is by shooting as otherwise you can't be sure to get the right one. Maybe it was lambing outside that did it...
Unnatural to lamb inside? How many bottle fed lambs have you seen? these are all abandoned lambs that would die otherwise, breach birth in sheep (Both die not just the lamb) 'Lambing inside' would be your google. They aren't kept inside but brought inside 2 weeks before their due date so wouldn't 'Taste different'. And thats where the hay that isn't eaten by rabbits goes.
And foot and mouth spread by foxes? Or seagulls? or dogs? or by walkers? or domestic cats? Or mink? or badgers or anything with feet or tires? lol
Can't sell cow with broken leg for slaughter? Think you're thinking of American laws, not UK. Seen many a cow go to slaughter after traumatic birth left them incapable of standing.
Many of the famers who support hunts are tenant farmers and don't want to annoy their rich land owners 'Tips his hat' Yes mi'lord. | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/28/2008 12:41:31 PM | | Hound the lil b@stards down. When it's cowering under a bush, calling out to his mummy fox. Shoot the ****er in the head. | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/28/2008 12:57:55 PM | missy-h
how sad
hunting foxes is barbaric and anyone caught doing so should be hunted down by a team of rabid dogs and torn to shreds.
1 fox 100 dogs and 40 pillocks on horses where's the sense of British fair play in that? | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/28/2008 1:49:50 PM | I seem to be in danger of repeating myself because people aren't reading my posts properly.
"I consider a humane method to be one which kills the fox with the minimum amount of guaranteed physical suffering."
As ypou say, and as Burns says,
"In the case of shooting, it seems to be generally agreed that lamping with a high powered rifle, if carried out properly and in appropriate circumstances, is the most humane way of killing a fox."
Agreeing with Burns again?
I do agree with Burns on that. As stated clearly in MSGs 83 and 91, if each bullet kills the fox instantly, then lamping has to be the most humane method.
Unfortunately (and following from the comments of another poster with first-hand knowledge) lamping doesn't guarantee a kill with each bullet. As I've repeatedly stated, wounded foxes limp away (perhaps they should call the method 'limping'?) to die in agony. So Burns' perfect lamping world doesn't exist, and that makes using the pack the most humane method based on the amount of suffering which may be inflicted on the fox.
I expect you would be in agreement that the bits you like and not the bits you dont
Of course! I can't remember the last document I read that I agreed with in its entirety.
Except those that I wrote!
The Inquiry also conclused that 'a quick snip to the neck' was not always how a kills ends.
Again, if people read my posts, they would note that in MSG 91, I wrote:
I would agree with that - death is not always caused by a single bite to the neck by the leading hound.
reasonable objections is sbjective, since he didnt name them, we cannot know, but you deduce as you would that packs would be the 'best' method. I am sure you do think that is brilliant
I am very intelligent, but I am unable to understand this statement.
The 2 points that you stated in other posts were hunting is the most humane Burns says
"In the case of shooting, it seems to be generally agreed that lamping with a high powered rifle, if carried out properly and in appropriate circumstances, is the most humane way of killing a fox."
And the hunting is all aboot pest control, numbers do not back this up.
"In lowland areas hunting by the registered packs makes only a minor contribution to the management of the fox population"
In MSG 92, you stated:
2 of the arguments for it were shown to be factually incorrect by this inquiry
I assume that the two arguments put forward by the Countryside Alliance or whatever were that hunting with a pack is the most humane method of killing foxes, and that hunting with a pack is all about pest control.
Burns acknowledged that death from hounds resulted within seconds, which means that the fox cannot walk away and die from its wounds days' later. Burns referred to a perfect world that cannot exist with regard to limping......sorry...lamping. He did not make any attempt to explain that lllllllamping is not always successful, which is why he used the term "tentatively".
So, Burns was unable to destroy the first argument.
As to the second, Burns admitted that:
In lowland areas hunting by the registered packs makes only a minor contribution to the management of the fox population
He also accepted that in upland areas, packs should be exempt from the ban.
Putting the two statements together, I can conclude that Burns acknowledged that packs made SOME contribution to the management of the fox population.
Therefore, the packs DO make a contribution (however small) to the removal of this vermin.
Once again, I agree with Burns!
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/29/2008 12:10:23 AM | "I seem to be in danger of repeating myself because people aren't reading my posts properly."
That's something I am thinking to myself as well.
Of course they make a contribution, it is a small one, that was not being questioned. But it is worth noting since pest control was always a 'defence'. Shown here to be not a very good one. Those were the two defences that I think were collapsed by Burns, which it seems to have admirably. There are other defences but I was interested in these two. And ultimately, it led to the ban, which I am thankful for.
Perfect world? Didn't see that phrasing, again, what Burns said was "lamping with a high powered rifle, if carried out properly and in appropriate circumstances, is the most humane..."
Carried out properly and appropiate...not really the same as 'perfect world'
The reasonalbe objections were not named. So you can deduce that 'packs are the best way', as I am sure you always would, but again, what Buirns says it that "lamping...is not safe...in remote areas because of the need for vehicular access". Not exactly ehat tyou state. You agree with Burns when you can add your own bits on the end.
End of the day though it was a free vote on the ban and it went down the history poopshoot with harecoursing, bear baiitng dog fighting etc. Perhaps the halfway house where they allow two dogs was for the highland areas? I really don't know, I haven't read much aboot that aspect. But I am thankful that a bloodsport like that has been reduced in someway in 21C Britain. | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/29/2008 4:30:27 AM | I think the problem here is that people get emotive about blood sport and forget that infact the hunt is/was here for a good reason, to reduce the numbers of the vermin that are foxes.
I agree that lamping is not the most humane way to kill a fox and that a Hunt led correctly is by far more humane. | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/29/2008 5:48:50 AM | think the problem here is that people get emotive about blood sport and forget that infact the hunt is/was here for a good reason, to reduce the numbers of the vermin that are foxes.
I agree that lamping is not the most humane way to kill a fox and that a Hunt led correctly is by far more humane.
This was found not to be the case. The numbers do not support it. And myself, I haven't used any emotive language, just went by the inquiry, you might want to chat to those who do get over excited like some;)
That's right, you can disagree so you can go with your own opinion to back up your own viewpoint, a bit typical but non a surprise. Seems any statistic you don't like is either fickle or silly:D You can have you opinions, but they don't hold up to the invesigation. Perfect world is also your phrase which you seem to infer from the language in the Inquiry, I just go off what the inquiry says. The humaen aspect is not just aboot the kill, which is covered but aboot the whole aspect of the chase.
I don't need your posts to be made clearer. You dismiss any statistic you don't like.
Unless you are going back on this
The pack is not humane no but we are not dealing with humans we are dealing with nature.
Hunting for food is a natural process by animals. Hunting for the sport of inciting one animal to rip another to bits is not, hence why you get cubbing. Ridiculous indeed!!
Fishing? I don't know, do some research into it if you feel it should be. badgerbaiting/harecoursing are illegal, becfause they are bloodsports.
At the end of the day I think the ban on hunting was more to do with people not liking the hunt and thinking they are looking down their noses at others when they aren't.
A way to attack people with supposed status, maybe jealous of their more comfortable life?
Again Laws made by pure emotions only is just plain wrong and not logical.
Oh of course it is, you know that was the well kept secret, that's why working class harecoursing was banned, all the other blood sports....
ridiculous indeed. You're post seems very emotive, perhaps the poster above should address her comments to you:lol: | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/29/2008 6:01:25 AM |
And myself, I haven't used any emotive language, just went by the inquiry, you might want to chat to those who do get over excited like some;)
Actually I wasn't refering to just this forum conversation but was thinking of the issue of fox hunting as a whole....I know I myself was swept up in the emotive imagery that was used by anti hunt campaigners and it wasn't until I actually looked at the hard facts that I came to the same conclusion as a few others on here that the hunt is better than lamping. Foxes are vermin and will kill for the hell of it, not always eating what they have killed causing massive destruction. They need to be culled as they do not have a natural predator. This of course is my opinion and of course you are entitled to yours. | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/29/2008 6:06:22 AM | If the need is there then yes they need to be culled. For me personally I do not like the bloodsport aspect, for many reasons, I think it shows humans at our worst, I don't like the idea of causing harm to animals for enjoyment (which is why most people look down on bloodsports) and for many reasons. But I won't go into them (and I will not debate them) because I am not here to make you change your mind, or anyone change their mind, or to get on my soap box. I have my own opinion and you have yours, this is fine. This is how things should be? I know I won't convince you of why I think you are wrong, and I know you cannot do the same to me. 
I am active in this thread just because some of the usual defences of hunting were brought up. Some defences were dismantled by the Inquiry to a lesser or greater degree, some were not. 
I don't wish to get into any emotional arguments because we all have our opinion, I njust don't like it when things are misrepresented.
I hope that makes my stance clear:) | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/29/2008 6:57:10 AM | To validly argue a point at least have some, even minor knowledge on the suject you are making judements on.
I do thank you. But if you're too blind to read my last post, I can't make it any clearer, I could also say, if you wish to debate, then don't ignore any facts you don't like
Nice to know that you think you know why harecoursing was banned
Make up one reason for one sport and one for another!
You can comment on fishing all you like, I am not.
investiagtion/inquirey is a load of bollox it contraditcs itself
Like you do? See above.;)
Your post is all emotion and no logic, unlike others who have posted as pro hunters on here
"Hunting is a natural process for all of the animal kingdom, "
Quite, but hunting to instill others to kill for pleasure is not, ridiculous:S
and the ban was for fox hunting not all blood sports.
Perhaps you need to study more, or know what you are talking aboot?
n 2004 the British Parliament passed the Hunting Act, which banned hare coursing as well as other forms of hunting with hounds with effect from 18 February 2005.[75]
Ridiculous
The inquiries claims were based on evidence.;) | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/29/2008 7:56:31 AM | You should have sent me this post as a message to me if it is a personal attack which it does look like.
Same here. I am not making any judgements on anyone, if you feel I am personally attacking you, then restrain your ranting, you drew first blood there. It is up to you how I respond to you.;)
You ignore the 'silly'fickle' facts, that's great, that's what I was discussing in my previous posts.
I am not sure what I would class blood sports as, as in, what criteria what need to be matched. UK fox/deer hunting and harecoursing appear to me to be bloodsports.
You can discuss what you like, my previous posts were based around 2 specific areas. Though I may have been dragged out of those areas. And as I said in my post to the other female poster, I am not here to debate or to make you change your mind, so please get rid of any misconpections that I am judging you. I do have views on that but I am not going to go into them here, why? Because of the very reason that it can lead into personal attacks!
I don't see your posts as logical but rants, but I don't wish to go there either...let's just leave that eh?
I was referring to the practicse of ensuring there is a fresh supply of cub to instil the urge to kill foxes in the hounds. cub hunting, not natural in my opinion.
Can't enlighten you, you would just dismiss, but I am sure you could come up with your own theory.
And the Inquiry is biased? Well thanks for your opinion on that. I would never have guessed. Read the inquiry, they also got their opinion from real life experience, ridiculous, but no doubt you would say they are silly/fiickle/biased etc because they are not your experiences
This is what I said in my post above, I don't think I can make it clearer.
I am not here to make you change your mind, or anyone change their mind, or to get on my soap box. I have my own opinion and you have yours, this is fine. This is how things should be? I know I won't convince you of why I think you are wrong, and I know you cannot do the same to me.
I am active in this thread just because some of the usual defences of hunting were brought up. Some defences were dismantled by the Inquiry to a lesser or greater degree, some were not.
I don't wish to get into any emotional arguments because we all have our opinion, I njust don't like it when things are misrepresented.
I hope that makes my stance clear:) | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/29/2008 10:10:00 AM | I've posted my feelings previously so will not repeat the reasons why I am not against the hunt but feel I need to comment on another aspect repeatedly raised.
From my experience the majority (am not saying all) of people that went hunting did not actually go to kill anything. Most people go out to 'ride with the hounds'. There are some bloodthirsty types but most riders are no-where near the actual kill (and a few will deliberately point in the wrong direction given the chance). And most will be happy if nothing was caught.
It is the thrill of riding to hounds that excites and encourages them. They don't wake up on hunt morning and say 'ooh goody, were going to hunt down and kill a fox' - they go for the exhiliration of galloping and jumping freely with a bunch of other horses, in fields where they would not normally be allowed to ride.
I'm sure the farmers would be more than happy if 30 people with guns offered to sit in his fields all day every now and then and blast the hell out of any fox they see, free of charge of course but it's never going to happen.
It's true that the fox has to kill to eat but let him kill his natural prey, rabbits etc. Too hard work for them when the nice farmer offers easy pickings. It is only financially viable for the farmer to fence/pen/lock up their livestock to a certain degree.
Very few people want foxes totally gone from our countryside but they have to be controlled by whatever means are available - hunting with dogs was only one of them and that like so many other methods has now been stopped. One farmer, one gun v 1 pair of breeding foxes x 2 litters a year - Anyone can figure the odds on the farmer ever winning. | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/29/2008 12:26:25 PM | I'm against fox hunting because foxes eat nothing but vermin.
Thats why so many want them dead... 
There are people out there who catch, transport and set foxes free into areas where the landowners/gamekeepers are happy for fox hunting... A bit like stocking up a lake with fish really.
As a "sport", its odious. Performed by odious people thats why.
Oscar Wilde had a way with words:
"The unspeakable chasing the inedible". Luvit! | |
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| Fox Hunting - Your Thoughts
Posted: 8/30/2008 3:05:04 AM |
What was meant by "perfect world" was that in a perfect world they would be able to shoot and kill instantly.
Now, we all know this is far from a perfect world where human beings are concerned and it is absolutley reasonable to deduce that no one will properly and appropriatley carry out such a task every time or even a high percentage of the time. Certainly not as higher percentage of just wounding a fox by hounds as the fox probably never gets away once it has been bitten .
Thank you for saving me a lot of typing!
Some people think that not a single bullet fails to kill a fox. Even Burns doesn't state that ridiculous idea is correct!
Burns acknowledged that packs do contribute to the management of the fox population, and anyone who believes otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about. One dead fox is one less fox!
Thankfully, the law was drafted so badly that packs continue to kill foxes legally, and long may they continue to do so!
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