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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 7/9/2007 6:18:47 AM | I do not believe the Bible remotely suggests the idea of reincarnation. I believe the defining verse is Hebrews 9:27, "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment."
I believe that the Bible consistently teaches that man lives and dies as a unique individual who will answer to God for his thoughts, words, and deeds in this life. For example, see Matthew 11:20-24 where Jesus talks about how the inhabitants of Tyre, Sidon, Sodom, and Gommorah will fare in the judgment versus how the inhabitant of Korazin, Bathsaida, and other cities of His day will fare.
For those who believe that John the Baptist is a reincarnation of the prophet Elijah, I have to disagree. Jesus said that one would come in the spirit and the power of Elijah. Jesus also says that He is the God of the living and not the God of the dead. We see this in the transfiguration when Jesus was transfigured on the Mount, and Elijah and Moses appeared with him. God is the God of the living--and all of His people have eternal life in my opinion.
Jesus also made statements about John the Baptist that did not apply to Elijah. He said that of those born of women there has not been one greater than John.
I believe that Elijah had a unique mission in life and that was to turn the people of Israel back to the true worship of their God. For example, read about his challenge to the priests of Baal to see whose God would consume the offering by fire from heaven. Elijah prayed a short prayer, and his offering was a smouldering heap of ash. The priests of Baal danced around all day calling on their deity to answer them. The people returned to the worship of the LORD.
John the Baptist was sent to proclaim the coming of the Messiah in my opinion. John and Elijah had similar duties and that is why it is said that "one is coming in the spirit and power of Elijah." This phrase in no way, in my opinion, teaches reincarnation. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 7/9/2007 8:41:19 PM | | We can move right, left, forward, backward, up or down in the three spatial dimensions but only time is unidirectional. In time we only move toward the future which strongly suggests that time is linear rather than circular. So, when Heb 9:27 says "man is destined to die once ... I have to assume that the properties of time and our current understanding of time supports this rather than an endless circular series of births and rebirths. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 7/9/2007 9:20:31 PM |
I do not believe the Bible remotely suggests the idea of reincarnation. I believe the defining verse is Hebrews 9:27, "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment."
In reincarnation the soul doesn't die with the body. The above verse is perfectly in harmony with reincarnation if we assume it's talking about the soul, not the body. It suggests that the soul does eventually die, but then is resurrected at Judgment Day.
For those who believe that John the Baptist is a reincarnation of the prophet Elijah, I have to disagree. Jesus said that one would come in the spirit and the power of Elijah.
This sounds like reincarnation to me. John the Baptizer had the spirit (i.e. soul) of Elijah. Also if you go back and read the original prophecy it says that Elijah would return. It does not say that someone vaguely similar to Elijah would return.
There's a few verses where there's an implicit assumption of reincarnation, but Jesus does nothing to dispel the notion (e.g. John 9:1-3).
Another interesting point is that Jesus is called the second Adam. Jesus also says that he existed before Abraham. These suggest that Jesus himself is the reincarnation of Adam. This makes his sacrifice make much more sense because he would be paying the price for introducing sin into the world and in the same stroke saving mankind from sin. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 7/9/2007 9:45:43 PM | If anyone's interested there are two books I found on the subject that you may like...
Herbert Puryear's "Why Jesus taught reincarnation" and Dr. Quincy Howe Jr.'s "Reincarnation for Christians"
CountIbli's comment about Adam makes sense too, really... How else could Jesus have been decended from Adam if he was born of a virgin? Reincarnation seems the only way... | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 7/10/2007 6:31:51 AM |
This sounds like reincarnation to me. John the Baptizer had the spirit (i.e. soul) of Elijah. Also if you go back and read the original prophecy it says that Elijah would return. It does not say that someone vaguely similar to Elijah would return.
John denied that he was Elijah (John 1:21)
Elijah never experienced physical death (II Kings 2:11)
The "doctrine" of reincarnation today sounds like the "doctrine" that was pulled on Eve in the Garden of Eden - Eat for you surely shall not die. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 2/27/2008 1:13:01 AM | happering
The simple answer is NO.
I've read the thread and find most of the biblical responses present but no one seems to have presented the strongest biblical evidence of reincarnation of all. It appears three times. To save readers time and effort I had to put in looking up other people's bible references, I'll include them here. KJV:
28 ¶ And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
Matthew 8: 29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? 30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding. 31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. 32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
Mark 5 : 1 ¶ AND they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes. 2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, 3 Who had [his] dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: 4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any [man] tame him. 5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones. 6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, 7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. 8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, [thou] unclean spirit. 9 And he asked him, What [is] thy name? And he answered, saying, My name [is] Legion: for we are many. 10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.
12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them. 13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.
Luke 8: 26 And they arrived at the country of the Gadarenes, which is over against Galilee. 27 And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in [any] house, but in the tombs. 28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not. 29 (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.) 30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him. 31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep. 32 And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them. 33 Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked.
Let me preface my remarks with the already presented idea that the teaching of reincarnation frequently leads to a procrastination of repentance to future lives. I need to also point out that if your memories of past lives had put you on the right path, you probably wouldn't be reincarnated now. Also please note the word Appointed in the Hebrew scripture previously referenced and even included, It means we all have to die once, but we can choose to do it again and again.
Now the understanding of the foregoing scriptures is dependant on having a correct definition of reincarnation and resurrection.
RE - preface meaning again
IN - word meaning the opposite of out.
CARNE - Latin for flesh or meat.
TION - suffix denoting action
In order to recognize this scripture as supporting reincarnation, one must understand that we like the evil spirits which were allowed to enter the swine by our LORD, are all spirit offspring of Heavenly Father. Recognize that all things are possible with God and accept that we have the agency to choose to die more than once but are only appointed to die once.
The Bible provides a Rosetta Stone which helps those who read it in a former life to translate the spiritually stored memories of past lives through considerable meditative effort as can be perceived from the Edgar Casey references.
What this means to me, is that all Bible believing denominations should believe in the Biblical doctrine as it has been well presented in this thread. Just as little children should be prevented from injuring themselves with fire and sharp objects and suffocating in plastic, There is a time and a place for all things. For the sake of those who have not reached the level required to ask the question, the answer should be leave that doctrine alone. It wont help you repent. It will only make procrastination of repentance that much easier.
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 2/27/2008 7:32:35 AM |
Another interesting point is that Jesus is called the second Adam. Jesus also says that he existed before Abraham. These suggest that Jesus himself is the reincarnation of Adam. This makes his sacrifice make much more sense because he would be paying the price for introducing sin into the world and in the same stroke saving mankind from sin.
Now THAT makes the most sense so far.
Thanks! | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 2/27/2008 9:03:28 AM |
Another interesting point is that Jesus is called the second Adam. Jesus also says that he existed before Abraham. These suggest that Jesus himself is the reincarnation of Adam. This makes his sacrifice make much more sense because he would be paying the price for introducing sin into the world and in the same stroke saving mankind from sin.
It suggests that Jesus existed before Abraham. Period. Tradition and my own opinionis that He is referring to Himself as the Second Person of the Trinity, as God. Certainly when He said, "Before Abraham was, I am" the crowd had no problems in understanding He claimed to be God and tried to stone Him for His blasphemy (being a man, he claimed to be God). There's no indication that they understood Him to mean He was previously created before Adam and was now on another trip around the whole birth/death merry-go-round. Absent any other evidence to support the idea that He was referring to a previous reincarnation, and adding all the other evidence that He claimed to be God, I think your theory is a non-starter. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 2/27/2008 2:25:27 PM |
It suggests that Jesus existed before Abraham. Period. Tradition and my own opinionis that He is referring to Himself as the Second Person of the Trinity, as God.
That's certainly the Trinitarian tradition which goes back to the third or fourth century. Non-Trinitarians see it differently.
Certainly when He said, "Before Abraham was, I am" the crowd had no problems in understanding He claimed to be God and tried to stone Him for His blasphemy (being a man, he claimed to be God).
That's quite the assumption you have there. It doesn't say why they were going to stone him. In fact even before Jesus said this they wanted to stone him. John 8:37.
Absent any other evidence to support the idea that He was referring to a previous reincarnation, and adding all the other evidence that He claimed to be God, I think your theory is a non-starter.
Jesus never claimed to be god. Your theory is a non-starter. He claimed to be the son of god. He admits that he lacks the omniscience of god. He admits that he can only do what god has commanded him to do. He can't perform miracles in the presence of skeptics, though in your defense, god can't either no matter how many times we've tried. God himself says he's not the son of man (though Jesus embraces the appelation) and doesn't change. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 2/27/2008 3:47:18 PM | Christianity doesn't support reincarnation at all because it would take away the main factor-heaven. Islam believes in karma and reincarnation. Christ died for our sins and by His stripes we are healed. Karma says that what goes around comes around and that leaves out all possobilities of healing or forgiveness. Christianity soul belief is the redemption of sins and powerful healing.
Uh, I could be wrong here but I thought buddhism is the karma rc thing. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 2/27/2008 3:57:43 PM |
Neveralone:
Christianity doesn't support reincarnation at all because it would take away the main factor-heaven. Islam believes in karma and reincarnation.
islam believes in Karma and reincarnation ? thats news to me! i think you are way off the mark there....
Karma says that what goes around comes around and that leaves out all possobilities of healing or forgiveness.
Uh, I could be wrong here but I thought buddhism is the karma rc thing.
Hinduism and its offshoot Buddhism both have the karma/reincarnation concept.
Even though the notion of karma might be "cold" and "uncompromising" to people of the judeo/xian religious tradition it does not mean its a bad thing
would we like to have a judge who is partial to one party? if that is the case i shudder to think about the fate of the justice system in the world. thats why judges are supposed to be impartial.
IF we would like to have impartial judges who do not play favorites in real life; should we not expect the same after death?karma is is a totally impartial system in which there is no favoritism. one can be the most ardent devotee of god and yet be judged by his actions alone. if you ask me; it sure is a good system
In the middle ages a lot of European monarchs built cathedral after cathedral hoping to "earn their way" into heaven regardless of the evil deeds they did. If "god"/"goddess"/"power" is so fickle as to be swayed by such petty things as " he/she belongs to this religion/philosophy" then should we even consider them worthy of the title "god"?
i do not have any probs with people believing in forgiveness by god or whatever; but to say that Karma is wrong cos its an impartial system is akin to saying that the supreme court is not good cos its impartial
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 2/27/2008 7:33:41 PM | | hi.. the bible says that if we follow Jesus in Spiirt and in Truth we will have eternal life... so yes, some who have died will be raised to life... but others will not see death but will be changed at Christs coming...the eastern ideas of reincarnation are not biblical as we have an earthly life then if we love God , His Son and His Perfect Laws we can have Eternal Life... for me, I read Gods Manual and I study Jesus, that is my source for all Truth... God bless you on your path to knowing Truth, warmly Mona | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 2/27/2008 9:37:26 PM | It seems odd that Christianity as it is taught now has divorced itself from any belief in reincarnation as such beliefs were common throughout many cultures of the ancient world and were also held in the Jewish faith and continue to be held today.
However, as reincarnation was also a part of the Gnostic tradition, which was one of the other main threads of Christianity that didn't survive the drive to unify under one central structure post-Constantine, it is little wonder such a concept is ruled as heretical and the work of the writer of Hebrews is accepted as the final word on the subject as opposed to some other source.
People keep forgetting that the books of the Bible were only "anthologized" at a certain time in history and certain collections labelled as "canonical" and "inspired" by certain groups and not all were in agreement on what constituted the "Holy Bible" or for that matter, dogmatic teaching, especially at the earliest age of the church | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 2/27/2008 10:03:08 PM | Jesus never claimed to be god. Your theory is a non-starter. He claimed to be the son of god.
While Jesus was on earth there was much confusion about who He was. Some thought He was a wise man or a great prophet. Others thought He was a madman. Still others couldn't decide or didn't care. But Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). That means He claimed to be nothing less than God in human flesh.
Many people don't understand that Jesus claimed to be God. They're content to think of Him as little more than a great moral teacher. But even His enemies understood His claims to deity. That's why they tried to stone Him to death (John 5:18; 10:33) and eventually had Him crucified IMO.(John 19:7). | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 2/27/2008 11:27:51 PM |
But Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). That means He claimed to be nothing less than God in human flesh.
That is certainly the opinion of some as to what that verse means but not everyone. The Greek word "hen" in that particular passage can be used to refer to "of one group" as much as "of one purpose"...
After all, in John 17:11 and 17:21-22 where Jesus prays to God that the disciples may be one (hen) as are Jesus and God, Jesus is requesting that the disciples be of one unified purpose, not of the same substance or part of the Trinity...or is he? *boggle*
What about the problems raised by John 10:30-34...Jesus, as depicted by John, is explaining that his identification with God is comparable to the Jewish judges' identification with God in the 82nd Psalm.
In all other verses, Jesus clearly identifies himself as an Agent of God or Son of God not as co-equal to God...
And this has what to do with reincarnation exactly?
Someone call an armed sky-marshall, or Wesley Snipes. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 2/28/2008 12:51:48 AM | ^^^^^hmmm....does tmf actually want to argue/debate Scripture? This should be amusing. Can't deal with John 1 though huh? > "..and the word was God." Now try refuting that. Who was the WORD again?
Back on track: no--reincarnation is not a belief or teaching that can be found in the Bible or in the teachings of Christ. Just ask Mary--she gave birth to Him once....then had other children besides. None of the others shared the remarkable characteristics of her first-born IMO. The contention is that Jesus had a pre-incarnate existence prior to coming to this Earth which some may construe as reincarnation after being born of Mary. Think again. If Jesus was indeed a reincarnate being, He would have been called Jesus the 2nd, instead of just Jesus.
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 2/28/2008 5:12:26 AM | | Origen, an early church father, proposed there might be reincarnations of souls in his speculative theology. A monk called Evagrius of Pontus developed these ideas and combined them with forms of mystical prayer and mental meditation which result in something very similar to Buddhism expressed in Christian theological symbols and concepts. However, the Bible I think values and sacralises history, and regards history as a once-off and ongoing event of progressive revelation and growing relationship and intimacy between God and his chosen people. Reincarnation instead tries to see things from the perspective of eternity and places less value on concrete history and the individual in favour of seeing our relationship to the entire universe and our relationships with other creatures in this universe. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 2/28/2008 7:47:06 AM | I don't think reincarnation is spelled out...perhaps hinted at in the Bible?
As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" John 9:1-2, NIV
The disciples wanted to know the reason for the man's blindness. They offered two possibilities to Jesus. Either the man was blind because of the sins of his parents or he was blind because he was reaping the fruit of his own sins (karma). If our souls do not exist prior to this birth and if the man was born blind, then when or where could he have committed the sins that caused his blindness? His soul would have existed prior to that birth and he would have been engaged in a corporeal setting with other people to commit sins against or with. In other words, the blind man had a previous life.
I really don't see any connection to biblical support for reincarnation in this passage. Jesus states the man's blindness has absolutely nothing to do with a curse of some karmaic circumstance of reincarnation and sin in a past life. If anything this passage denies reincarnation if anything...the blind man was under no karmaic justice at all is what I get from the passage..
To apply this verse as some sort of scriptural proof of reincarnation is reading something that simply is not there.
Neither does the verse from Hebrews deny reicarnation...
"It is appointed unto {those} men to die, and after judgment"
This verse is not referring to mankind as a whole, nor is it referring to an actual physical death taking place, but it is referring to the high preists who died symbolically every year when they made atonement for Isarael's sins. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 2/28/2008 2:36:50 PM | | Ravanan: The top paragraph is from an earlier post. I'm new to this. Maybe you or someone else could help. How do you hi light quotes ? I was merely responding to this person's remark that islam believed in rc. Which I believe to be incorrect. Is it ? | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 2/28/2008 2:46:21 PM |
nevralone
Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Ravanan: The top paragraph is from an earlier post. I'm new to this. Maybe you or someone else could help. How do you hi light quotes ? I was merely responding to this person's remark that islam believed in rc. Which I believe to be incorrect. Is it ?
k no probs  i didn't know it was by another guy cos of the missing quotes
to quote something put whatever you want to quote within these tags
[.quote] [./quote]
^^do not type the fullstop found inside the tags though, cos i used it so the tags will be visible in this post.
hope it helps
Ps: and yes ur right; islam does not have karma nor reincarnation | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 2/28/2008 8:02:09 PM |
hmmm....does tmf actually want to argue/debate Scripture? This should be amusing. Can't deal with John 1 though huh? > "..and the word was God." Now try refuting that. Who was the WORD again?
If you actually could ever carry on a debate, that indeed would be amusing to say the least...
But debate? With a literalist? What possible "debate" can their be? AFAIK you seem to be pretty certain you KNOW the "heaven breathed" answers already so no debate as such can be possible...of course, the possibility that you could be utterly wrong or possibly even out of your depth wouldn't even occur to you.
Whoever the anonymous author was who wrote the concept of someone being the word made flesh obviously was lifting heavily from the Neo-Platonistic concepts written decades earlier by the Jewish writer Philo of Alexandria who had already popularized the previously Greek concept of the Logos in the Near East.
But of course not having bothered to read about Philo, you probably wouldn't have spotted that and assumed that "God did it" or some such stuff...
In any case you still didn't deal with the additional "hen" problem... or the Psalm problem, where others may be referred to as "gods".
Ad who is to say that in a previous incarnation one would have to manifest all of the same characteristics of an existence every time? If Jesus were God incarnate, perhaps, but if he were only a mere mortal man like the rest of us...Oh, right, you need that belief for your view of religion, forget I said it. Well for anyone who doesn't have to believe in that part, certainly in Orthodox Judaism it is a possibility and has been since the beginning of what Christians would call "biblical times."
They just don't believe in it and don't teach it for some reason. They like to dare to be different in some ways...each to their own I guess, nothing wrong with that. *shrug* | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 2/28/2008 8:49:35 PM |
But debate? With a literalist? What possible "debate" can their be? AFAIK you seem to be pretty certain you KNOW the "heaven breathed" answers already so no debate as such can be possible...of course, the possibility that you could be utterly wrong or possibly even out of your depth wouldn't even occur to you.
no..you -on the other hand, appear to have all the spiritual answers as evidenced by the new horns now sprouting from your head--very cute. Wrong?? How can I be wrong in experiencing an event in my life which could only be orchestrated by an omnipotent source?? I hardly think I'm going down the rabbit hole there sir...but yes, I am confident in WHOM I have believed in. I am also quite confident in what the Bible says. Good enough for me and others--unfortunately not good enough for you and many. Alas, the masses are not always right are they? Especially when it relates to the kingdom of God.
In any case you still didn't deal with the additional "hen" problem... or the Psalm problem, where others may be referred to as "gods".
As for the hen problem, the issue is quite simple as it is old. In other words, which came first-the chicken or the egg? OOPs..uhh..Why did the chicken cross the road? uhh.. well..ok
But of course not having bothered to read about Philo, you probably wouldn't have spotted that and assumed that "God did it" or some such stuff...
so what you're saying is that I'm not 'feeling' 'philo' is that it?
And who is to say that in a previous incarnation one would have to manifest all of the same characteristics of an existence every time? If Jesus were God incarnate, perhaps, but if he were only a mere mortal man like the rest of us...Oh, right, you need that belief for your view of religion, forget I said it. Well for anyone who doesn't have to believe in that part, certainly in Orthodox Judaism it is a possibility and has been since the beginning of what Christians would call "biblical times."
They just don't believe in it and don't teach it for some reason. They like to dare to be different in some ways...each to their own I guess, nothing wrong with that. *shrug*
hmmm..WAY too philisophical..why do we have to come back as anything anyway? To 'fix' our karma so to speak? 'Ahem*bullshit. Or because some higher 'ascended master' channeling source told us this? Ahem**even more bullshit. See, this is where the Bible sets the course for truth and stays on course. The compass that I choose to be guided by--MADE the Earth's magnetic fields IMO. Other compasses..they just go spinning in ALL directions whereby many are lost. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 2/28/2008 9:13:01 PM |
hmmm..WAY too philisophical..why do we have to come back as anything anyway? To 'fix' our karma so to speak? 'Ahem*bullshit. Or because some higher 'ascended master' channeling source told us this? Ahem**even more bullshit. See, this is where the Bible sets the course for truth and stays on course. The compass that I choose to be guided by--MADE the Earth's magnetic fields IMO. Other compasses..they just go spinning in ALL directions whereby many are lost.
It makes sooo much more sense that god sacrificed himself to himself to change a rule that he, himself, made. | |
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