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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 2/28/2008 11:29:43 PM |
face it peoples,we don't know what's going to happen when our physical bodies die. We simply believe what will happen to us,which is ok. For most of us believing is all we have.
I can only speak for myself, but I have no problem with that. It's when you try and argue that you aren't just thinking wishfully that I take issue. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 2/29/2008 12:33:10 AM |
no..you -on the other hand, appear to have all the spiritual answers as evidenced by the new horns now sprouting from your head--very cute. Wrong?? How can I be wrong in experiencing an event in my life which could only be orchestrated by an omnipotent source?? I hardly think I'm going down the rabbit hole there sir...but yes, I am confident in WHOM I have believed in. I am also quite confident in what the Bible says. Good enough for me and others--unfortunately not good enough for you and many. Alas, the masses are not always right are they? Especially when it relates to the kingdom of God.
You have an answer rooted in faith which you believe to be true. Others have an answer which is rooted in faith which they believe to be true. We have no way of knowing which one is actually true because each one, not having ANY basis in fact carries equal evidenciary weight is equally true. It comes down to personal belief and feelings on the issue. So yeah...suck it up.
As for the hen problem, the issue is quite simple as it is old. In other words, which came first-the chicken or the egg? OOPs..uhh..Why did the chicken cross the road? uhh.. well..ok
Apparently you don't get this one. Your key proof for Jesus suggesting that he and the Father are ONE (hen)is used again in the exact same language with the exact same language in Greek with the exact same wording when Jesus suggests that the disciples and the Father can become one (hen). If you're not so swift on the uptake, this suggests that the meaning of the word does not suggest that hen in Greek solely means "of one substance" and in fact anyone who knows anything about the Greek of that period knows that contextually it can mean several different things including of one purpose as well as of one group. Now if Jesus in no verse ever suggests that he is co-equal to the Father and suggests that the disciples can be one (hen) with the Father, that seems to imply that like him they can become of one purpose rather than of one unit does it not?
so what you're saying is that I'm not 'feeling' 'philo' is that it?
Obviously if you are not aware of the fact that Philo wrote about the Logos and the "word becoming flesh" and Messianic concepts decades before the authors of the New Testament who likely pilfered such material chapter and verse from him, yes I'd say you're not feeling very "philo"...not the least of which you are staggeringly ignorant of Near Eastern Biblical history...but given the content of your posting over the last little while this is of no great surprise to me...I am assuming that you believe "if'n you think th' Good lord writ it thet's good 'nuff 'fer yew!"
hmmm..WAY too philisophical..why do we have to come back as anything anyway? To 'fix' our karma so to speak? 'Ahem*bullshit. Or because some higher 'ascended master' channeling source told us this? Ahem**even more bullshit. See, this is where the Bible sets the course for truth and stays on course. The compass that I choose to be guided by--MADE the Earth's magnetic fields IMO. Other compasses..they just go spinning in ALL directions whereby many are lost.
You think you know the Bible?
This is exceptionally amusing to me. I would never make such a profoundly arrogant admission. Do you read Ancient Hebrew? Aramaic? Biblical Greek? Do you have the slightest inkling of the history and lifestyle of the people to whom these words were written, their time and place. To me this is the height of hubris. I have barely an grasp of any of this and can approach these pages with only slight and humble understanding as I gain more knowledge...for the 21st Century English speaker who thinks they can merely rely on a casual translation by some well meaning translator to spell it out for them without the additional knowledge to put the work in context as a description of the relationship of faith between the people and their view of the divine world is, in my opinion, the most staggering statement of arrogance, yet it is all too common among North American evangelists who anachronistically imagine this work to be written to them in the twenty-first century in America as a guidebook to live their lives - pure insanity.
The skill-set required to approach a true understanding of the entirety of the Bible is certainly beyond me, and I daresay beyond the likes of you, despite what you may believe. Just because you can't imagine something, hardly means it cannot be (fallacy of incredulity)...the worlds libraries abound with that knowledge. They keep those secrets hidden away from people like you in these funny little things called books. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 2/29/2008 12:40:15 AM |
The skill-set required to approach a true understanding of the entirety of the Bible is certainly beyond me, and I daresay beyond the likes of you, despite what you may believe. Just because you can't imagine something, hardly means it cannot be (fallacy of incredulity)...the worlds libraries abound with that knowledge. They keep those secrets hidden away from people like you in these funny little things called books.
One doesn't need to be a biblical scholar to discount the work. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/10/2008 9:41:28 PM | Again I repeat. Biblical scripture, without using the word supports reincarnation. Unless you have some other definition of the word than that indicated by the roots from which it is coined.
^^^^^hmmm....does tmf actually want to argue/debate Scripture? This should be amusing. Can't deal with John 1 though huh? > "..and the word was God." Now try refuting that. Who was the WORD again?
Back on track: no--reincarnation is not a belief or teaching that can be found in the Bible or in the teachings of Christ. Just ask Mary--she gave birth to Him once....then had other children besides. None of the others shared the remarkable characteristics of her first-born IMO. The contention is that Jesus had a pre-incarnate existence prior to coming to this Earth which some may construe as reincarnation after being born of Mary. Think again. If Jesus was indeed a reincarnate being, He would have been called Jesus the 2nd, instead of just Jesus.
face it peoples,we don't know what's going to happen when our physical bodies die. We simply believe what will happen to us,which is ok. For most of us believing is all we have.
Open your eyes and read it!
The Word REINCARNATION is not found in the cannonized Bible. The word is RESURRECTION in the Bible. What Jesus did on the Cross was for everyone and without it we would all be eternally damned. What is not well understood by many is that there was another event which is not so universially applicable. It occurred in the Garden of Gethsemene just before his arrest. What Christ did by being resurrected after dying on the cross was begin the ongoing process of resurrection. If we use the example of Christ as the defining event with regard to resurrection, we must realize that resurrection is reincarnation but reincarnation is not always resurrection. The spirit entity which constitutes Christ's personality, memory, and experience existed before his birth, and performed work while out of the body between his death and resurrection. If we use this as the defining criteria of resurrection it is a returning to the same flesh with a full recollection of having been out of the body. Thus it is being in flesh again but reincarnation includes other flesh, flesh of animals or human flesh. Thus the term reincarnation can be used with regard to resurrection but not all reincarnations are appropriately regarded as resurrections.
Since what Jesus accomplished on the cross applies to unbelievers as well as believers, it makes sense to me that unbelievers will simply call it something else in order to continue being unrepentant unbelievers. Nevertheless, they will be resurrected. Perhaps Out of Body Experience (OBE) or Near Death Experience (NDE).
1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
John 5:26-29
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
There are those walking among you who are indistinguishable from yourselves who are resurrected. Being resurrected is not enough, When Jesus had just come forth and greeted the woman to whom he first appeared, he had not yet ascended to his father and prohibited her touching him. Subsequently when he appeared to his disciples and:
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
All resurrection is therefore reincarnation but all reincarnation is not resurrection. Resurrection differs from reincarnation only in that one returns to the same flesh with full recollection of experience out of the body. Everyone, therefore who has had an OBE is resurrected but Not all who have experienced the OBE are exalted or immortal. Lazerus was resurrected but not exalted. He died twice didn't he? So much for the misinterpretation of Hebrews. How many others did Christ raise from the dead to die a second time? Yes, they were appointed to die once but volunteered to die again.
YES THE BIBLE DOES TEACH IT, BUT WE WHO KNOW IT ARE INSTRUCTED TO DISCOURAGE ITS TEACHING BECAUSE IT ENCOURAGES PROCRASTINATION OF REPENTANCE.
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/11/2008 10:18:28 AM |
Apparently you don't get this one. Your key proof for Jesus suggesting that he and the Father are ONE (hen)is used again in the exact same language with the exact same language in Greek with the exact same wording when Jesus suggests that the disciples and the Father can become one (hen). If you're not so swift on the uptake, this suggests that the meaning of the word does not suggest that hen in Greek solely means "of one substance" and in fact anyone who knows anything about the Greek of that period knows that contextually it can mean several different things including of one purpose as well as of one group. Now if Jesus in no verse ever suggests that he is co-equal to the Father and suggests that the disciples can be one (hen) with the Father, that seems to imply that like him they can become of one purpose rather than of one unit does it not?
I can see how the word 'one' is applied differently between the disciples being one with Christ and the Father in purpose, and Jesus claiming to be one with God when He addressed the Pharisees.
The context of the passage regarding Jesus and the Pharisees is not about being strictly one in purpose....but is instead a context where Jesus describes His equal power to the Father....On the surface it might appear that Jesus is saying the father is greater than Him in Powr, but that is not what is meant when the passage is rightlu divided imo. Jesus used the word 'one' in purpose with the Father when it came to protecting and keeping the sheep, but 'one' is also used to describe the equality of power and ability to protect the sheep of both Jesus and the Father. Jesus does not say the Father is more powerful than Him, but says that the Father's position is greater than His own position is. He states the sheep are in His hand and are also in the Father's hand...this signifies an equality in nature...the fact that the sheep can be taken from neither the Father's hand or Jesus's hand signifies an equality of power.
Reincarnation goes against everything the bible teaches regarding grace in Christ. There is no room for grace in reincarnation. There is no necessity to be subject to an afterlife karmaic justice, when grace has removed all debts owed. There is no purpose at all for reincarnation if grace is available. And there is no purposes in bringing grace through Christ if reincarnation is what dictates our destiny. The two(grace and reincarnation) are completely incompatible and cannot function together. Reincarnation is the doctrine that has its hopes in works and human effort. while grace has nothing to do with human efforts. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/11/2008 10:51:57 AM |
Reincarnation is the doctrine that has its hopes in works and human effort. while grace has nothing to do with human efforts.
My understanding is that reincarnation is for those of us who just don't get" it"; meaning that if we continue to live our lives with fear, hate, and harbour even the least little bit of resentment, then it's time for a do over. The Law of Grace is for those who finally understand that it's all about *Love*, and when one realises that we're really all in this together, and that we are all essentially worthy of *Love*, then our entire outlook becomes one of Peace and reconciliation, and living in a state of Grace.
I gotta long way to go.....
Cheers, Raven | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/11/2008 11:12:03 AM |
My understanding is that reincarnation is for those of us who just don't get" it"; meaning that if we continue to live our lives with fear, hate, and harbour even the least little bit of resentment, then it's time for a do over. The Law of Grace is for those who finally understand that it's all about *Love*, and when one realises that we're really all in this together, and that we are all essentially worthy of *Love*, then our entire outlook becomes one of Peace and reconciliation, and living in a state of Grace.
I gotta long way to go.....
Cheers, Raven
Grace as i understand it to be, takes effect whether we understand it or not..in all reality I don't think that we will ever understand it completely nor do I think it is necessary. Paul claimed to have revealed the full counsel of God in his letters, but yet Paul also claimed to be only capable of seing through a galss dimly while in this earthly realm. Grace is not for those only who have the undrstanding ability, grace is all inclusive and covers everyone, especially those who are like children and have no understanding. Grace includes all, even those who do not seek after God or have any interest in spiritual things.
This is why I disagree with any necessity for a reincarnation, because then it would mean that grace is some hidden secret that only those who are elite will discover....and that to me, nullifies it as being grace and makes it a reward for human attainments.
No Raveniss you don't have to go anywhere, you are here and now and have every opportunity to have communion with God and drink from the water of life freely...there is nothing in our way. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/11/2008 12:03:22 PM |
My understanding is that reincarnation is for those of us who just don't get" it"; meaning that if we continue to live our lives with fear, hate, and harbour even the least little bit of resentment, then it's time for a do over. The Law of Grace is for those who finally understand that it's all about *Love*, and when one realises that we're really all in this together, and that we are all essentially worthy of *Love*, then our entire outlook becomes one of Peace and reconciliation, and living in a state of Grace.
Excuse me guys, Maybe I should state it IMO that the bible DOES support reincarnation but I've tried quoting the scriptures and just as you have always had them and not got it, maybe you do need to do it over. The grace thing Jesus accomplished by dying on the cross a righteous and sinless man was and is for ALL. Believers and unbelievers. Sinners and Saints. Everybody who has a body will have a resurrected body. That is what the scriptures are telling us. People just don't get it that grace is what makes that so. People get hung up on a scripture and fail to see the very next one. They stop too soon. Here Let me put the emphasis on the part I'm trying to get you all to see:
Ephesians 2: 8 For by GRACE are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
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As for the current debate over the meaning of the word one, you seem to be ignoring:
Romans 8: 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 ¶ And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with {him}, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time {are} not worthy {to be compared} with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Our Father in Heaven doesn't die so the inheritance must be shared. We must give up our greedy infantile ways and become adults willing to share with our children and siblings even as our Father has shared and given to Christ. This is what the united order was established to teach us. So also so much of the gospel. TO LOVE IS TO SHARE. Jesus gave of his power freely, not to everyone as there were those who did not believe and among them he could do no miracles because of their unbelief.
WE ARE THE MANIFESTATION OF GOD'S INFINATE CREATIVITY.
Those who cannot grasp this concept must be confined and restrained from destroying and discomforting those who do grasp it. This is why we must be sorted. This is why in the resurrection there are various degrees of glory. (again, resurrection is a subset of rencarnation and reincarnation is simply again in flesh) Yes, the wicked will be resurrected too. What GRACE is about is the free gift of resurrection. Our works do not earn us resurrection. What our works do, is give God the justice of having let us do what he knew we would do before he sent us here to do it. Our works justify His depriving some of us of the greater gifts in eternity. Who wants to call it just to be punished for crimes without ever having committed them? I certainly don't and would not regard such punishment just.
We all must become one with Him to enjoy his infinite creation for eternity. If we do not, he has other places within that same infinate eternity within which those who are the forever don't get it types to have their place and the rest of us who can see infinity don't have to go there or be stuck among them. The righteous will not be trapped in such places nor restricted from visiting them but who would care to go there very often?
1 Corinthians 15: 39 All FLESH [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds. 40 [B][There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another. 41 [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory. 42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead.[/B] It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:...
How can it be said that the Bible doesn't teach reincarnation. What does reincarnation mean to those who say it isn't so? Why is this such a hard thing to understand. Resurrection is reincarnation because it is again in flesh. Being baptized is concenting to be born again and receive a new body. When Nicodemus asked if a man could enter again into his mother's womb, Jesus refrained from answering. He did not say no. People would no more accept the answer then than now. It isn't practical for you to reinter your mother's womb, but you might enter your granddaughter's. Of course you have to die to do that and Jesus was about eternal life not death after death. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/11/2008 3:28:22 PM | | Those who profess to believe Jesus existed; was a wise man, a great teacher, an "enlightened one" , while missing the central doctrine of his teachings, that which the foundation of his Truth is rested upon, which is, HE is Lord, meaning he speaks with infallible authority, seem to miss the point of what he is saying I feel. If one is to believe one thing he says, and not the other, than why believe it at all? Especially if his words are claimed to be the Truth? The demands of discipleship are hard, if not impossible. But Jesus did the hard part for us. He simply asks us to Follow. Something I struggle with everyday. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/11/2008 3:34:14 PM |
Posted by consigliere31
Reincarnation goes against everything the bible teaches regarding grace in Christ. There is no room for grace in reincarnation. There is no necessity to be subject to an afterlife karmaic justice, when grace has removed all debts owed. There is no purpose at all for reincarnation if grace is available. And there is no purposes in bringing grace through Christ if reincarnation is what dictates our destiny. The two(grace and reincarnation) are completely incompatible and cannot function together. Reincarnation is the doctrine that has its hopes in works and human effort. while grace has nothing to do with human efforts.
Reincarnation is compatible with grace. It is through grace whereby:
Rev.3:12 "He who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it."
Reincarnation is for those who again have to leave it.
It is through reincarnation whereby every spirit will have the opportunity to accept that grace at some point and perhaps multiple times. If one never does, they will truly be without excuse. One who never heard the gospel in a particular lifetime will have it offered in another. God is truly amazing. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/11/2008 7:06:13 PM | It is through reincarnation whereby every spirit will have the opportunity to accept that grace at some point and perhaps multiple times. If one never does, they will truly be without excuse. One who never heard the gospel in a particular lifetime will have it offered in another.
If this were true then why didnt Jesus speak a word to Herod when He was brought before him? Could it be that Herod already had the "opportunity to accept" but rejected/murdered John the Baptist? Why wouldn't Jesus present the "opportunity" to Herod again? Why wait for Herods' reincarnation? Just a thought .... | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/11/2008 7:25:38 PM | | Jesus had to orchistrate his crucifixion for the benefit of us all. Imagine what we would have today if Christ had successfully converted Herod! None of us would even recall Christ as Herod would have freed him. Herod was already torn up over having to have John beheaded. Jesus had to be insolent to him to be sent back to Pilot. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/11/2008 7:48:57 PM |
Imagine what we would have today if Christ had successfully converted Herod!
Ummm ...convert? They were both Jews.
Herod was already torn up over having to have John beheaded.
A man who killed his wives, sons, friends .... torn up over the beheading of a rabble rouser? I find that hard to believe.
Jesus had to be insolent to him to be sent back to Pilot.
On the contrary, Herod found no fault with Him as did Pilate. Yet, Jesus spoke to all accusers except for Herod. A significant little detail .... ends as she is getting off topic..... | |
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cap757
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Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 265 | |
| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/11/2008 8:53:35 PM | Reincarnation is a satanic lie that the Devil uses to fool people into believing that they will escape Judgement for this life.
" Don't worry. Do whatever you want. You can just make up for it in your NEXT life. So go ahead and sin. "
This is the only life that you will ever live. And you will be held accountable for things done in THIS life. After you die there is no second chance. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/12/2008 12:29:35 AM | ^^^hey -- maybe the kid knows a thing or two of what he's talking about and he can teach Sunday school anytime as far as I'm concerned.....
now let's see--Reincarnation and the Bible....some people here are claiming to accept the concept and the Bible teachings as well...but did Christ teach the same concepts?? I don't believe He did. I'm thinking of the one where He teaches about who's wife will she be in the resurrection....He states no ones....for they shall be as the angels in heaven. Now there's a thought. The thought is that they are spirit beings transformed to a heavenly environment where no more procreation takes place. I guess that squashes the re-birthing theories.  | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/12/2008 1:38:54 AM |
but did Christ teach the same concepts?? I don't believe He did
Well that's the question isn't it. After the creation of essentially an Orthodoxy and the purging of alternative views of what constituted Christianity as "heresy" - quotes used advisedly - we have no real idea of the myriad ideas of what people believed that Christ taught...
All we have now is a bunch of people who accept this Orthodoxy generally without question and assume that it and only it is the sole voice of truth when in actuality there may well have been many differing voices and opinions on what was considered a teaching of Christ in the days of the early Church.
Unfortunately for some people who demand a 30-second-soundbite style of faith with easy answers, clear cut religion in black and white with no differing opinions and no debate, this poses a problem. So it's much easier to label differing opinions as "heresy", "Satanic", "lies", "apocryphal", and whatever opinion that has been accepted by the core group as "canonical" and "true" and "inspired."
Unfortunately for them there is no way to establish the veracity of that any more than there is the pedigree of any other religion. So I guess you'd LIKE to squash the re-birthing theories by suggesting that you have the last word on what Jesus taught...but the simple fact is that you don't. You have the redacted and condensed version of what one group that came to prominence decided you would get to read would be the "accepted version" of the teachings of Jesus and you have chosen to accept them as such. That no more means that they ARE specifically all and solely the teachings of Jesus for certain than it means that we know for certain that a guy named King Arthur walked the soil of Britain. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/12/2008 8:23:42 AM |
I can see how the word 'one' is applied differently between the disciples being one with Christ and the Father in purpose, and Jesus claiming to be one with God when He addressed the Pharisees.
You can see that because you invent context to support what you want to see.
The context of the passage regarding Jesus and the Pharisees is not about being strictly one in purpose....but is instead a context where Jesus describes His equal power to the Father....On the surface it might appear that Jesus is saying the father is greater than Him in Powr, but that is not what is meant when the passage is rightlu divided imo. Jesus used the word 'one' in purpose with the Father when it came to protecting and keeping the sheep, but 'one' is also used to describe the equality of power and ability to protect the sheep of both Jesus and the Father. Jesus does not say the Father is more powerful than Him, but says that the Father's position is greater than His own position is.
Please quote where Jesus says that the Father's position is greater. Otherwise you're just inventing context to justify a preconceived notion. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/12/2008 10:45:07 AM | The context of the passage regarding Jesus and the Pharisees is not about being strictly one in purpose....but is instead a context where Jesus describes His equal power to the Father....On the surface it might appear that Jesus is saying the father is greater than Him in Powr, but that is not what is meant when the passage is rightlu divided imo. Jesus used the word 'one' in purpose with the Father when it came to protecting and keeping the sheep, but 'one' is also used to describe the equality of power and ability to protect the sheep of both Jesus and the Father. Jesus does not say the Father is more powerful than Him, but says that the Father's position is greater than His own position is.
Please quote where Jesus says that the Father's position is greater. Otherwise you're just inventing context to justify a preconceived notion.
We need to understand the greek words used in this passage.
greater=(meizon)
better=(kreitton)
Jesus did not say that The Father was Better than Him but greater and the word is used to point to His greater position in heaven.
The difference between 'greater' and 'better'is made clear in Hebrews1:4 where better is used to describe Jesus´ superiority over the angels...The word better in this verse indicates that Jesus is not just higher than the angels positionaly. But is higher than the angels in His very nature..
Jesus is better in kind and in nature from the angels.
Jesus never once used the word 'better' regarding His relationship with the Father, for He is not inferior or lower in nature with the Father. Jesus used the word ´greater´ that points to the Father being higher in position only....During the incarnation, Jesus functioned in the world of humans, and this necessitated Jesus being lower than the Father positionaly.
Look at Phillipians 2:6-9 Paul talks of the incarnation and says of Jesus....
"being in the very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made Himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness"
Paul confirms that Christ was in the very nature God,meaning Christ in His essential being is and always has been eternal God.
The word ´being´ in this passage (being in the very nature God) is a present tense term and carries the idea of continued existence with God...
Philippians 2:6-9 indicates that Jesus Christ, in eternity past, continually and forever existed in the form of God.
In becoming incarnate and tabernacling among men Christ had greatly humiliated Himself, by choosing to descend into shame and suffering in their acutest forms....In view of this, Christ was now contrasting His situation with that of the Father in the heavenly sanctuary. The Father was seated upon the throne of highest majesty; the brightness of His glory was uneclipsed; He was surrounded by hosts of holy beings, who worshiped Him in uninterrupted praise. Far different was it with His incarnate son-despised and rejected of men,surrounded by enemies, soon to be nailed to a criminals cross.
The context of John hwere Jessu claims to be 'one' with the Father, describes in the context His equality of purpose 'protecting the sheep" equality of nature "both the Father's hand and the Son's hand are both holding the sheep...Now unless the sheep are cloned to be in two places at once, which they are not, then the Father and Jesus must be joined in nature as well, The fact that they both have the power to hold the sheep above every other force that can come against the sheep, demonstartes an equality in power.... The word greater cannot mean .nature, power or purposes....so what is left that also is compatable with the rest of scriptural context throughout the whole of te bible? | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/12/2008 11:25:53 AM |
Reincarnation is compatible with grace. It is through grace whereby:
Rev.3:12 "He who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it."
Reincarnation is for those who again have to leave it.
It is through reincarnation whereby every spirit will have the opportunity to accept that grace at some point and perhaps multiple times. If one never does, they will truly be without excuse. One who never heard the gospel in a particular lifetime will have it offered in another. God is truly amazing.
For me this is black and white.
If grace depends on human merit before it can be applied, then it is nullified as being grace and falls into the category of works.
The gospel is a commandment from the Father to rise to life. The gospel was demonstrated in Lazarus imo....and this was the commandment spoken by Christ for lazarus to arise from the dead....lazarus had no say in the matter...He was commanded to rise to life by Jesus, and Lazarus could not refuse the command. If anyone hears the gospel they will be risen to life, if they do not hear the gospel then they will not rise to life. Lazarus rose to life because He was under the Divine command to do so...Just as the world was formed by the Divine command, and had to come into being because God had spoken the command, there was no disobedience to the Divine command. And there will be no disobedience to the Divine command to rise to life..."You must be born again". this is not an offer, it is a commandment....and every person will be subjected to this same commandment ...."You must be born again".... and everyone will rise to eternal life at this commandment.
When you say that it is up to the individual spirit to receive grace, then grace is not grace, nor is it a gift. If I present my child with a gift, but make them work for it or fulfill a certain thing before they receive it...then the gift ceases to be a gift, and becomes a wage.....The only wage that is ever given out is the wages of sin....man is a sinner because he has sinned, therefore man has received a wage for his works of sin....but the free gift is not like the offense in any way. It is not based on man's efforts, and if it is then God is a liar and denies Himself. It is God's faithfulness that strengthens the new covenant of grace, not man's. He remains faithful to His New Covenant when we are unfaithful, God cannot deny His own covenant of grace and disqualify anyone from grace because they have fallen short or not experienced it as manifested in their lives, or God is a liar.
What purpose is reincarnation?
The only reasoning for a theology of reincarnation is so that mankind can work for a reward. Nothing to do with grace at all. And absolutely futile to reincarnate someone to have another opportunity at making better efforts next time around, when grace has NOTHING to do with human merit. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/12/2008 11:30:37 AM | Most of us pushing 60 years of age finally understand life as being a series of painful trials. Most of our earthly dreams have been shattered and any sure fire "orthodox" belief system we might once have embraced for getting us into the promised land all too often becomes clouded in controversy and doubt. We are down to the small miracles we might experience in our own lives for our guidance to truth.
I've become convinced that astral projection, that is the extraction of consciousness from the body to exist remotely, consciously or unconsciously from it, is real and verifiable; by extension we may assume we will survive our bodies at death. The possibility of having led any previous life on earth or in some another dimension seems to gain a lot of credence when reading near death experiences. A lot of experiencers have a beautiful sensation of "coming home" as in being back in Heaven or Valhalla or the Summerland.
I think we voluntarily agree to make excursions back to earth or some other planet from time to time to further our development as good spirits. If we think about how many stars exist in space, each being a sun, and consider God as purposeful, imagine the possible worlds spinning around those stars we might like to try to exist in. If we are eternal and eternally restless, isn't it marvelous that God gave us such a nice big playpen? | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/12/2008 11:30:55 AM | Most of us pushing 60 years of age finally understand life as being a series of painful trials. Most of our earthly dreams have been shattered in one way or another, although we have our families. Any sure fire "orthodox" belief system we might once have embraced for getting us into the promised land all too often becomes clouded in controversy and doubt. We are down to the small miracles we might experience in our own lives for our guidance to truth.
I've become convinced that astral projection, that is the extraction of consciousness from the body to exist remotely, consciously or unconsciously from it, is real and verifiable; by extension we may assume we will survive our bodies at death. The possibility of having led any previous life on earth or in some another dimension seems to gain a lot of credence when reading near death experiences. A lot of experiencers have a beautiful sensation of "coming home" as in being back in Heaven or Valhalla or the Summerland.
I think we voluntarily agree to make excursions back to earth or some other planet from time to time to further our development as good spirits. If we think about how many stars exist in space, each being a sun, and consider God as purposeful, imagine the possible worlds spinning around those stars we might like to try to exist in. If we are eternal and eternally restless, isn't it marvelous that God gave us such a nice big playpen? | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/12/2008 12:29:04 PM |
We need to understand the greek words used in this passage.
greater=(meizon)
better=(kreitton)
Jesus did not say that The Father was Better than Him but greater and the word is used to point to His greater position in heaven.
The Blue Letter Bible http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3187&Version=kjv says this about meizon:
greater, larger, elder, stronger
This sounds a lot like he's describing power or perhaps age. It also says that meizon is an irregular comparative of megas, which means:
1) great
a) of the external form or sensible appearance of things (or of persons)
1) in particular, of space and its dimensions, as respects
a) mass and weight: great
b) compass and extent: large, spacious
c) measure and height: long
d) stature and age: great, old
b) of number and quantity: numerous, large, abundant
c) of age: the elder
d) used of intensity and its degrees: with great effort, of the affections and emotions of the mind, of natural events powerfully affecting the senses: violent, mighty, strong
2) predicated of rank, as belonging to
a) persons, eminent for ability, virtue, authority, power
b) things esteemed highly for their importance: of great moment, of great weight, importance
c) a thing to be highly esteemed for its excellence: excellent
3) splendid, prepared on a grand scale, stately
4) great things
a) of God's preeminent blessings
b) of things which overstep the province of a created being, proud (presumptuous) things, full of arrogance, derogatory to the majesty of God
So unless Jesus is saying that the Father has a weight problem, it sure sounds like he's saying that the Father has more power.
Look at Phillipians 2:6-9 Paul talks of the incarnation and says of Jesus....
"being in the very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made Himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness"
This translation is tainted by Trinitarian presuppositions. The Greek word morphe means:
1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision
2) external appearance
Paul is not saying that Jesus is god, but rather, he has the physical appearance of god. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/12/2008 12:45:18 PM |
Posted by consigliere31
For me this is black and white.
If grace depends on human merit before it can be applied, then it is nullified as being grace and falls into the category of works.
Ok so you are coming at this from Calvin's Irresistible Grace and I can therefore understand that for you reincarnation is not only unnecessary but a potential threat. For me on the other hand I do not believe in irresistible grace both from personal experience and many scriptural verses that contradict it.
When you say that it is up to the individual spirit to receive grace, then grace is not grace, nor is it a gift. If I present my child with a gift, but make them work for it or fulfill a certain thing before they receive it...then the gift ceases to be a gift, and becomes a wage.....
If you force that "gift" on your child it is not a gift but a curse or sentence. For it to qualify as a gift it has to be voluntarily given and received which requires your child to choose whether to receive it or not. This is important from the verse where God puts before us Life or Death and says to choose life. If there was no choice He would say "I give you Life regardless of your personal desires in the matter". Yet we know from the OT that many Israelites chose Death. They were able to reject the gift of grace and it therefore is resistible.
Anyway we better drop this so we do not derail the thread. I do thank you for giving me some insight into why Calvinists are not willing to consider reincarnation. It would throw doubt on the doctrine of there being a predetermined elect.
Btw, I do want to thank you for explaining the verse about it being determined once for man to die and then the judgement. It was the only verse that speaks against reincarnation and although I have seen another interpretation which still allowed for reincarnation to be true, i liked yours better. | |
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HAHAHAHA...hee hee hee That's right boys and girls...and not even begging for forgiveness and reading Jack Chick every day and pretending to give up masturbation will save your worthless souls from burning in HAY-YULL!
