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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/12/2008 12:47:17 PM |
It is not based on man's efforts, and if it is then God is a liar and denies Himself.
How is Jesus going to judge the living and the dead? By grace or works:
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 20:12-13 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
James 2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
What purpose is reincarnation?
What purpose is life? If salvation is by grace then life is meaningless.
The only reasoning for a theology of reincarnation is so that mankind can work for a reward. Nothing to do with grace at all. And absolutely futile to reincarnate someone to have another opportunity at making better efforts next time around, when grace has NOTHING to do with human merit.
If men are judged by works, as is evident from the verses cited above, then human effort is extremely important. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/12/2008 1:11:28 PM | There is the story of the disciples passing a man who was born blind. The disciples asked Jesus who sinned, this man or his parents? Jesus answered them and said, neither, but so that the Glory of God may shine upon him (be healed by the Spirit one supposes).
How could the disciples ask if this man sinned, wasn't he bloody born like that to begin with? Unless ofcourse he sinned in a past life. Ah Ha! | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/12/2008 1:12:07 PM |
How is Jesus going to judge the living and the dead? By grace or works
For starters it should be understood that I am of the Preterist view, and see all these judgements as already exposed by the light of the gospel at the physical end of the age of the law...which makes it when the temple was destroyed and no stone was left unturned by the Romans. So most of how I understand scripture is through a historic opinion concerning the prophecies related to the end of the age of the law.
How does Jesus judge is the questioon?
He judges all things according to the work and purposes of the cross of Christ, and these judgments are in effect now and forever. The judgment of servants works, are according to the cross of Christ. The judgment of the sons of God is according to the cross of Christ. The judgment on the world's sin is according to the cross of Christ.
The judgment took place 2000 years ago and set the division between life and death, light and darkness, being inthe kingdom and being outside the kingdom.
The purpose of life is God's, not ours.... we have all opportunity to communion with God, and God has purposed for mankind to seek Him out and know Him while in this earthly realm....but for those who haven't been found in Christ in the earthly realm, doesn't nullify the judgment that was set as a standard 2000 years ago. God will carry out all His will and purposes for us, and His will and purposes is not according to our own wills and desires.
We are living in the day of judgment where God deals with us as He has dealt with His own Son, and He has given this assurance to all men by raising Christ from the dead...Christ is the first to ever be raised from the dead into a resurrected state of being...sos even if a person does hold the reincarnation theory as being supported in scripture, then they must also realise that thier theory of reincarnation wasn't in effect until after Christ first resurrected from the dead. No one else ever experienced a reincarnated life until Christ paved the way by being the first-born from the dead.
How could the disciples ask if this man sinned, wasn't he bloody born like that to begin with? Unless ofcourse he sinned in a past life. Ah Ha!
But it wasn't because of any past life sins, so the point you make is moot and goes against what Christ said regarding this. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/12/2008 5:11:56 PM |
He judges all things according to the work and purposes of the cross of Christ, and these judgments are in effect now and forever.
You're, of course, free to believe that, but realize that it has no basis in Scripture. As I pointed out, according to the Bible Jesus is going to judge people according to their works (being a Preterist has no effect on this). Grace has nothing to do with it. Unless you can point to a verse where Jesus says people will be judged based on grace. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/12/2008 9:14:04 PM | IMO it is obvious that reincarnation is simply the placing of the prefix re in front of incarnation. Incarnation has the obvious and I believe irrefutable biblical meaning of a Spirit entity (GOD) entering into a physical body. (Jesus Christ). We learn from Christ dealing with a spiritual entity which called itself Legion that many spirit entities may fit into one human tabernacle body and by Jesus leave these entities (plural) entered into a herd of swine (pigs) and caused them to do what they had failed to make the human do, namely commit suicide by drowning in the sea of galilee or lake ganesareth, whichever... These spirit entities obviously went out of human flesh and back into swine flesh. It is not appropriate to call it resurrection as this is before the first fruits of the resurrection. So we coined the word reincarnation. The incarnation of these non god spirits into swine flesh. This event pretty much defines the term as it applies to Biblical context. It does obviously include the possibility of incarnating into animal flesh. Again all things possible with God. Those who deny it are denying the obvious power of God and are IMO attempting to dictate to God what he cannot do.
On another occasion, Jesus by NOT refuting the doctrine as false or incorrect or impossible, and on other occasions stating plainly that with God All things are possible, has made the fact of reincarnation an ongoing and pre-resurrection valid doctrine. These things all happened prior to Christ's resurrection.
IMO, therefore, While reusrrection qualifies under resurrection, there are some distinct differences which create need for this other word. Resurrection is a subset of reincarnation in that it requires a return to the same body with all memories and experiences in tact. Thus Lazerus and the others miraculously raised from the dead and which we have no reason to believe became immortal (I'd love to see some record of their lives and/or posterity subsequent to their restoration to life). We also have no indication that they had any recollection of what they did while dead or out of the body. Jesus, on the other hand is reported to have gone among the dead to preach his gospel and which some believe set up his church among them. Resurrection is promised to all and thus becomes the free gift of grace. it is a free gift which may be rejected as we are still free after resurrection to die again or become unclean and unworthy to enter the Father's presence. Jesus forbade Mary to touch him at the grave for he had not at that time yet ascended to his Father and Our Father. Subsequently he invites his disciples to touch him to discern him from a spirit which hath not flesh and bones as they saw him have. Thus his appearance to Mary could have been a vision which she could not touch. It is difficult to prove whether Jesus was touchable or not at that point but the body was no longer in the tomb so the majority believe he was tangable.
So the question of whether the man or his parents sinned that he was born blind is in effect Jesus indicating that the man could have lived before.
In another place Jesus asks "Whom do men say that I the son of Man am?" and by NOT indicating that the ideas believed by the men they answered him regarding, but simply congratulated Peter for getting it right, He in effect endorsed the doctrine of reincarnation as both a pre-resurrection and a post-resurrection doctrine.
Grace was accomplished on the cross and all will be resurrected like it or not. Yes, for some it will be, as He himself said, "It would have been better not to have been born" For Where we get to live in our resurrected bodies is determined by our Works. See 1 Cor posted previously. Celestial, Terrestrial, and another glory as diverse as the stars.
One way of looking at it is that Jesus had the right to forgive or not based on the suffering he endured in the Garden of Gethsemene. Had he not suffered infinitely there, he might not have been able to be killed on the cross. IMO. Were he not the Spiritual entity referred to as Jehovah in the old Testament or JHWH and thus the giver of the law and by the law the creator of sin, he would not have had the right to grant mercy. On the other hand, being the author of the law, he was able to obey it every wit. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/13/2008 1:25:53 AM |
You're, of course, free to believe that, but realize that it has no basis in Scripture. As I pointed out, according to the Bible Jesus is going to judge people according to their works (being a Preterist has no effect on this). Grace has nothing to do with it. Unless you can point to a verse where Jesus says people will be judged based on grace.
To quote from the scripture collections and writings of Gary Amirault on judgment by grace for all of mankind.......
Let's start at the beginning; at Creation, when all things were made by Christ. I believe the Scriptures state that He began His work knowing full well about the fall of man that was to come. He had a plan already in place to redeem mankind, since He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8). He, who created all things, will "reconcile to himself ALL things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross" (Colossians 1:20). This reconciliation or restoration of ALL things was foretold by God when He "spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago" (Acts 3:21). God has appointed His Son to be the "heir of ALL things" (Hebrews 1:2) and in God's Son "shall ALL the nations be blessed" (Galatians 3:8).
God has given His Son "authority over ALL flesh, to give eternal life to ALL whom He has given Him" (John 17:2). "The Father has given ALL things into the Son's hands" (John 3:35) and so "ALL flesh shall see the salvation of God" (Luke 3:6). Because of "the unchangeable character of God's purpose" (Hebrews 6:17), because His love for His enemies is unchanging and "He is kind to the ungrateful and evil" (Luke 6:35). "He desires ALL people to be saved" (1 Timothy 2:4). He "gave himself as a ransom for ALL" (1 Timothy 2:6). He "is not wishing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should reach repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). He "has consigned ALL to disobedience, that he may have mercy on ALL" (Romans 11:32) "for from him and through him and to him are ALL things" (Romans 11:36).
So God's plan is "to unite ALL things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth" (Ephesians 1:10). The Father has "put ALL things under Christ's feet" (Ephesians 1:22) and has "given ALL things into his hands" (John 13:3). Jesus has promised to "draw ALL men" to Himself (John 12:32) because "the Father loves the Son and has given ALL things into his hand" (John 3:35). Jesus said, "ALL that the Father gives me will come to me" (John 6:37). Jesus says that like a good shepherd, He will search for each of His lost sheep "until he finds it" (Luke 15:4). "God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him" (John 3:17). "The grace of God has appeared bringing salvation for ALL people" (Titus 2:11).
Jesus is the "Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). Jesus gave His flesh as bread "for the life of the world" (John 6:51). "He gives life to the world" (John 6:33). He is "the light of the world" (John 8:12). "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2). "He is the Savior of ALL people" (1 Timothy 4:10), "the Savior of the world" (John 4:42; 1 John 4:14). "He appeared to destroy the works of the devil" (1 John 3:8).
Jesus "abolished death" (2 Timothy 1:10). "He has put away sin by the sacrifice of himself" (Hebrews 9:26). His power "enables him to subject all things to himself'" (Philippians 3:21). "The gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does" (1 Peter 4:6). He has "the keys of Death and Hades" (Revelation 1:18). He will throw "Death and Hades into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:14).
"In Christ shall all be made alive" (I Corinthians 15:22). He "accomplished the work" that the Father gave Him to do (John 17:4). "He restores all things" (Acts 3:21). "At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:10-11). "Every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, `To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever! "' (Revelation 5:13).
"Then comes the end, when he [Jesus] delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For `God has put all things in subjection under his feet.' But when it says `all things are put in subjection,' it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:24-28).
These verses have not just been thrown together haphazardly. They are the expression of that purpose that runs through the Bible, a purpose first stated in mankind's creation in the image of God, a purpose that can be traced throughout the entire Bible, in the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets, and most clearly in the New Testament. From it we learn at least three things:
1 . Christ came claiming the entire human race as His own, to the end that He would save and restore the entire race, not just part of it.
2 . He came with full power and authority over all men, having received all power in heaven and earth over all hearts, all evil, all wills.
3. He lived and died and rose again, completely victorious, having fully accomplished the work His Father gave Him to do, which was the salvation
of the world. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/13/2008 2:28:01 PM | Thanks consigliere,
When I read that, I thought, yes, this guy is getting it. When put together with all that has come to pass since the death and resurrection of Christ, It all makes sense. The Cross was the fulfillment of the lamb slain from the foundation. Right on. The job has been finished for 2038 years. OH, BUT PEOPLE ARE STILL DYING AND BEING BORN. When a praterist reads something like that, believing that every prophecy was fullfilled in the first 100 or 300 years after Christ, he can see the flaws in scripture. We don't have access to the only words, written in stone by the finger of the LORD. Everything in scripture is interpretation of men of what they have heard or been inspired to write. We must take what has transpired since into account. Death has not been put under his feet yet. At least not physical death. So some interpret this as spiritual death rather than physical death. Our bodies can die an infinite number of times but the death of the spirit is ended. We are reconciled to God and still have our agency. So it is just a matter of time until we CHOOSE to accept it.
Well, there are still some prophecies which are unfulfilled. The Baptism of Earth by Fire, The Darkening of the Sun, and The turning of the Moon to blood. Just to mention a few. Praterists need to repent. Everything did not happen in the generation following Christ. It is still going on and there was a new star in heaven at the time of Christ's birth. He Synchronized his Birth with the arrival of the light from a Not too distant SuperNova. One which lit up the Western Hemisphere all night long. The New heaven and New earth prophecy is also yet to come to pass. Observations of distant Supernovae in recent years have given us reason to expect the debris from that nearby supernova, now cold and dark to be, to be passing through the solar system soon. If a rain cloud can block the light of our sun temporarily, I imagine a space storm will be millions of times more ominous. The speed of the debris is expressed in fractions of the speed of light. Too many insignificant zeros when expressing it in tens of millions of miles per hour.
We are the same spirits that Jesus preached to. We have new bodies over and over again since then. Resurrection would be meaningless if our memories and experiences went into the grave with our bodies. The problem is that those memories were recorded with different bio computers whose wiring was different as the blood flow in our retinas. Translating the old memories into meaningful images and thoughts is a time consuming process requiring a "Rosetta Stone" like translation tool. The Bible, having been read in a former life, is one "Rosetta Stone" that serves the function for those who read it again in their reincarnated bodies. Many other old books or records can also serve. It does still require time and effort. Remember this as well, YOU DIDN'T GET IT RIGHT IN ANY OF YOUR FORMER LIVES, OR YOU WOULDN'T STILL BE HERE! Do not trust your recollections, Be prepared to throw them out and try something new. Reincarnation is true, The problem is and has been that when preached, people tend to procrastinate the day of their repentance. Well, Brothers and Sisters, The Baptism of Fire will end the chances on this planet. It is sorting time and there are zillions of planets into which God can put you in Zillions of different bodies which may or may not be human. If you wish to be like God in eternety, Learn to behave like him NOW! | |
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9 to 9
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Joined: 12/12/2007
Msg: 283 | |
| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/13/2008 3:03:02 PM | Well firstly -Op, I honestly feel that in order to claim a religion you should probibly understand the whats and whys of your beliefs, "christian" or "other", intimately. But as a suggestion, you might want to seriously consider stopping by a local temple or "church" and getting permission to study in detail your sacred texts. The alternitive is to buy the books out right, as to learn for yourself what the particular belifs of that particular faith is. If you have the currency, that is to me the best way.
But nothing is more usefull, fulfuilling and instructive about a belief system of any type than attending any "sunday school" type classes they might offer. I for one have found them to be vastly instuctive as to what the core beliefs or principles the religion promotes, and what bias of perspective they persue. Pertaining to a subject, any.
So the best bet I think is to actively persue, and understand more importantly what you believe, and why you do. So when you do you really dont need anyone else's understanding of a belief system, religion, and its edics/ tennants to clarify yours for you.
Just an idea, good luck!
9 to 9 | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/13/2008 3:34:49 PM |
To quote from the scripture collections and writings of Gary Amirault on judgment by grace for all of mankind.......
Nothing he says detracts from the fact that the Bible says that Jesus will judge people by their works. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/13/2008 6:29:16 PM |
Nothing he says detracts from the fact that the Bible says that Jesus will judge people by their works.
I agree that works are judged, but this has nothing to do with any part of our eternal destiny, reincarnation or resurrection...nor does it say there is judgement of this sort anywhere in scripture....what it says is that rewards will be given accordingly...to assume this means a judgment against the human soul is nothiing but an assumption and a false one at that.
But if you seek a scripture that suggests that all are judged through Christ's sin offerring and made righteous because of this paticular judgment, then.....
Acts 17:31 (Young's Literal Translation)
31because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.' | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/15/2008 2:01:22 PM | You know Christians say "its appointed unto men once to die, after this comes the Resurrection". Yet the same New Testament also talks about a 'second' death.
Also there is a story in the Old Testament where Elijah the Prophet (think lightning bolts on Mount Carmel and heavenly Merkabah Vehicles) encounters a woman with a son who suddenly dies. Elijah prays for the boy to be Resurrected and he is only to die a second time, whereas the woman loudly complains to Elijah who then proceeds to once again Resurrect the dead boy.
There is also the story of Lazarus whom Jesus Resurrected after he was dead in the grave for three(3) days. Jesus had earlier referenced death's metaphor as mere sleep and Resurrection to 'awakening'. Its really interesting to hear the reactions from Christians, when you ask the question- Did Lazarus die after his Resurrection by Jesus once again?
I can't for the life of me, figure out how those who preach 'you die and go to Heaven' also doesn't match with the words of Jesus where he supposedly said, "He who believes on me shall never die"????? | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 3/16/2008 3:16:01 PM | Yes, you have eiscerned the conflict correctly, but you apparently haven't read my previous posts. The opinion of the LDS or Mormons is that there are two deaths. Death is defined as a separation. The most common form of death which we see and must endure is the physical death. Most do notlperceive the separation from God as a form of death. Death is a separation. One is a separation fo the Spirit from the Body. Two is a separation of the Spirit from God. Until or without the Atonement the Second or Spiritual death or separation from God was permenant.
Jesus performed two services or saving ordinances if you will. In the Garden of Gethsemene, He accomplished the Atonement in which we, through repentance and compliance with the laws and ordinances of God, we may by our choice be reconciled to God and return to his kingdom. The second was performed on the cross. That is where Jesus Died Physically and by re-entering his flesh he accomplished what he had done for Lazerus and Elijah did for the Old Testament mentioned above. Jesus went another step, however, and having Atomed for the sins of man in the Garden of Gethsemene ascended to the Father and accepted Exaltation. He became Physically immortal. Some may prefer to say he threw of the Mortality he had endured in order to fulfill the prophecies made from the foundation of the world concerning him.
Neither Resurrection nor Reincarnation assure one of not physically dying again The wages of sin is death and continues to be. Jesus being sinless is no longer subject to the wages of sin.
Jesus accomplishment on the cross applies to all. We all get to be reunited with flesh. The methods of accomplishing this can include reincarnation. Resurrection being a subset of reincarnation includes the suffecient development of the Spirit that It can recall and play back memories made while out of the body. In other words, Resurrection is being again in the flesh previously incarnated in. | |
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