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funn1
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Joined: 1/8/2005
Msg: 76 | |
| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 12/2/2005 1:04:28 AM | "Whether the "point" of the story was that jesus heals or not still does not discredit what the disciples asked of Jesus, nor what Jesus answer to the disciples was."
27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 12/2/2005 3:40:04 AM | As I see it, the OP loves Jesus and the basic message of Christianity but finds the explanations about the nature of life, death and the afterlife that are generally offered by evangelical, fundamentalist and other "orthodox" Christian thinkers to be a little hard to swallow. They are -- unless you believe that God doesn't want us to think for ourselves and that we should accept these simplistic teachings on blind faith.
As has been demonstrated by many of the posters here, I can read reincarnation into the Bible and you can read it right back out again. The Bible as we know it today did not even exist until hundreds of years after the death of Jesus. It did not descend from Heaven to the Earth on stone tablets but has passed through many human hands and the politics of various contradictory church councils. The possibility that passages have been altered and omitted is very real. You don't have to believe that the Bible is a magical book or "inerrant" to believe that it contains a great deal of wisdom nor do you have to believe that to be a Christian.
Jesus is not known to have ever issued a single doctrinal test to His followers nor did he ever make anyone's salvation contingent upon their doctrinal purity or "correct biblical belief" as some here seem to think.
Does a belief in reincarnation help make sense of the universe? Yes. Does it contradict the essential message of Jesus, ie, "love God with all your heart and your mind and your soul and love your neighbour as yourself. That is the whole law." ? No.
The idea of reincarnation is the most sensible, logical theory out there if you believe in a God that is both just and merciful. We reap what we sow, a very biblical concept. Salvation is not an instantaneous event but a process. See Paul: "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling." We can only be "saved" by the grace of God because that grace is what gives us the power to work out our salvation.
As explained by the late, great American psychic Edgar Cayce, who was a devout Christian and read the Bible once for each year of his life, Jesus was the first soul that in effect made it all the way back to God and became so united with Him that he could truly say "I and the father are one" and thereby established a pattern and a path that all must follow. Thus, he became the "pioneer and perfecter of our faith", "the firstborn of many brethren" and "the captain of our salvation". It might take many lifetimes to achieve that salvation in its fullest sense.
Now, if you want to believe that you can sin away for your whole life, say a prayer to Jesus on your deathbed and get into Heaven while others, not necessarily even Christians (in name at least), who actually put the teachings of Jesus into practice during their lives here on Earth will be roasted in Hell forever by a supposedly just God, I suppose you wouldn't find the idea of reincarnation that appealing. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 12/2/2005 11:39:28 AM |
Whether the "point" of the story was that jesus heals or not still does not discredit what the disciples asked of Jesus, nor what Jesus answer to the disciples was."
27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment
Just another one of the Bibles contradictions...I assure you...there are many I assure you.. one minute Jesus says one thing..the next another. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 12/3/2005 3:21:33 AM |
Does any of this really matter? We can't really know that god exists, much less heaven or reincarnation...
Which leaves us with philosophy and ethics. Every religion boils down to a few essentials, such as kindness, tolerance, love, etc. What else matters?
Besides, when we die we'll learn the answer or we'll just die and that's it. In the meantime I'll just try to live a good life and the rest will take care of itself, despite anyone's dogma, karma, or agenda.
It may not matter to you, Zentral. But it DOES matter to a lot of people.
If there is no type of afterlife, whether it's Heaven or Hell or reincarnation or whatever makes sense to you, then isn't life some sort of a cosmic joke and not even a funny one? We get a brief taste of life, a mere blip on the screen of eternity, and then we are snuffed out of existence, all our hopes and dreams and "essentials", the ideals you mention, gone with us?
If so, what's the point of striving for high ethical ideals? Why not just eat, drink and be merry? Why sacrifice any of your own selfish desires to help someone else? Because it makes you feel good? Maybe it does. But what about all the people who aren't so "highminded"?
What if we do just die and that's it? In my opinion, too many people nowadays think that's exactly what happens -- no wonder they live by the credo of "get it while you're hot, baby, 'cause you're gonna be cold a long time." Without a belief that, as difficult as it may be for us to perceive now, we do live in a just, loving universe --- why should human beings be just and loving?
Reincarnation is one of the few theories out there that actually makes sense of the universe and gives a solid basis and reason for ethical effort. It's very important for many of us to have a concept or a belief like that -- whether we can prove it or not. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/12/2006 12:15:53 PM | | Happening... Catholics do belive in Jesus. The difference between Christens and Catholics is, the Christens go straight to God with there prayers. Catholics go to the Virgin Mary. See the difference. Both belive in Jesus, but both have found different ways of getting to him. Thats one of the major differences. But there are more. Such as the Bible's. Catholics have a narrowed down version that is read in such a way as to control the Catholic church. The Christen Bible is supposedly in its full version. It is read in a way that instead of the Pope, or whoever rules the church, but God himself lives in the church. Get it? Im not very good at explaining things like this, but I do find it very interesting. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/12/2006 1:11:53 PM | artandsoul
Joined: 11/7/2005
Msg: 79
view profile
Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 12/3/2005 3 33 AM
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I meant if this is the previous post then ?????
my message is #81
********************************************************************** relics and reincarnation..... I guess we were ginen everything we need to know about salvation and the rest is just heresay !!!       | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/12/2006 1:36:29 PM | If there is no type of afterlife, whether it's Heaven or Hell or reincarnation or whatever makes sense to you, then isn't life some sort of a cosmic joke and not even a funny one? We get a brief taste of life, a mere blip on the screen of eternity, and then we are snuffed out of existence, all our hopes and dreams and "essentials", the ideals you mention, gone with us?
If so, what's the point of striving for high ethical ideals? Why not just eat, drink and be merry? Why sacrifice any of your own selfish desires to help someone else? Because it makes you feel good? Maybe it does. But what about all the people who aren't so "highminded"?
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I don't know about you,Art,but I function much better if I live my life as if there IS nothing after I discorporate.If this is it,this is my last hurrah,I'm going to give everything I do my best shot because it matters to ME.I want to live long,I want to live healthy,I want to live well,HERE and NOW.MY eithical ideals are what fuel ME,not some long dead philosopher/guru who preached to a crowd of people who are also long dead,but ideals that will affect me and the people I care about in THIS life.THIS life is the one that CURRENTLY matters.What I do will effect me and the people I care about HERE and NOW,not in some reincarnated life where I won't even have a memory of what I supposedly did in the past life,or some strange place where I'm supposed to play harps for eternity.
Morals and ethical ideals are like laws of physics.The body,the mind,the spirit (not speaking in religious terms,but that being which animates you and makes you an individual)are set up in such a way to react to ethical ideals in a positive or negative way depending on how one lives.If you overeat,overindulge,it can have direct negative effects on your life and the lives of those you care about in the HERE and NOW.
I need no afterlife or spiritual guru to keep me functioning and living for higher ethics. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/12/2006 5:43:29 PM | "It might take many lifetimes to achieve that salvation in its fullest sense. "
I believe in reincarnation as a "revitalization in another form" but I don't believe that the other "form" needs to be the rebirth of a fleshly body. The statement that it may take many lifetimes to achieve salvation in its fullest sense necessitates us to return to earth and stay fixated on earth to continue life in our new body. Why are we so obsessed with being earth bound? What if after death we are able to ascend and descend from heaven to earth either in a fleshly body or in another form? I believe that is how it once was and how it will be again. Christ himself proved that a human can pass from heaven to earth and back again, why won't we be able to also? We limit the power of God and his great design for us to our limited understanding and our obsessive desire to be "earth bound". | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/13/2006 7:09:42 AM | The bible is on a need to know basis. Some things we simply do not need to know.
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This attitude is one of the biggest gripes I have against Christianity and other religions.I saw a documentary last night called "Banned from the Bible" about books of the Bible that were banned due mainly to church politics.One such book was the Gospel of Mary,supposedly written by Mary Magdeline.It could not be included because it showed that women could be intelligent,independent and religious leaders.
Need to know basis only?I got your need to know. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/13/2006 7:53:03 AM | I think God is capable of taking care of Himself and what is in the bible is His doing. Otherwise that wouldn`t even be there.
Everything needed to know to find His way is in there. PURE DOCTRINE
The rest is not essential to salvation. PRINCIPALS.
Jesus raised women to points above and beyond even todays consences. The woman at the well ( a Samaritan ) evangelized a whole town on her word, she was a dreaded scag, so they all came to here Jesus. Whereas the Jews were demanding signs. Mary Magdeline was sent to tell the boys He was risen. Mary, recognized and loved His character, while they were still working on His cause. For this where ever the gospel is preached she is remember for pouring the perfume in readiness for His death.
People aren`t banned from those books. If they line up then I take it with a grain of salt.
But to allow all of those books to govern my thoughts would be a non-constructine thing.
If iI were to tell you what books to take as gospel in Satanic religion would you find me qualified to judge that. I suggest you start with book one and work from there. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/13/2006 8:06:09 AM | If iI were to tell you what books to take as gospel in Satanic religion would you find me qualified to judge that
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What makes anyone qualified to decide what is canonical about any book in any religion?The historical facts remain.The Bible WAS edited for primarily POLITICAL and MONETARY reasons.That is a historical fact. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/13/2006 8:23:00 AM | Under who or what`s guidance tho. Christian God claims to be the controller of Kings and Gov.`s hearts and moves them to fulfill His economy. His agenda is to bring those home who`s hearts are set on that, and if you look close enough you can see His hand in all things, even the bad. He has His people that are supposed to be doing His bidding but most are so busy with their own agenda that they leave Him in the dust ,waiting for someone with a willing heart.
The catholic govmnt. , contrary to popular belief , is not God. "call no one father, teacher,
They, as well as Jesus` mother` image are all placed as blocks between us and God, Which makes the tearing of the veil, in vain. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/13/2006 8:53:11 AM | "The Bible WAS edited for primarily POLITICAL and MONETARY reasons. That is a historical fact."
Correct, Taurus. But nobody would realize this fact unless they took the time to actually investigate the history of the 'Holy' Bible. Most 'Christians' don't bother, of course, and in their naivete' (sp?) believe that the Bible is the inerrant, infallible literal word of God Himself. But, you already know this. Arguing w/ certain, err, 'unread' ppl is kinda like discussing quantum physics w/ a 5 yr. old. They've never been taught anything outside of the Bible, never investigated anything, for to do so would make them 'sinners' and they'd be doomed to hell, you see.
And, in regard to the topic, yes...reincarnation was among the teachings/beliefs of the earliest Christians (yes, including Origen). This doctrine was later deemed 'heretical' for ulterior purposes and all references to it taken out at ensuing councils, mainly the Council of Nicea, 325 A.D. ( but a few good hints to it in the NT that they missed do remain i.e. Jesus asking, "Who do they say that I am?"....ppl responded, "Some say Elijah, some say (some other dead person, can't remember...)," but you get the point.) It's quite clear that the ppl believed back then in the re-incarnation of souls, and you can take note how Jesus never corrected them in this belief in the few hints/references to it that show up in the NT. And, Artandsoul, I agree...the doctrine is NOT incongruent w/ original (true) Christianity-only incongruent with the edited, elaborated on, added to, deleted from, voted on, misinterpreted, politically- tampered -with remnant of the "Word of God" that it's evolved into in it's present, errant form. Fundamental 'Christians': go ahead and jump me as a 'blasphemer,'etc, much like the Pharisees did to Jesus when he was trying to get them back to the true teachings (just an analogy, not* comparing myself to Jesus)...but I probably won't respond to the nonsensical, emotional and uninformed attacks, as I don't enjoy having a battle of wits with those who are, unfortunately, educationally/informatively unarmed. Just wanted to add my $.02.
P.S. Yeah, 'Banned from the Bible' was a very interesting and *educational* show on the History channel last night. | |
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nergal
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Joined: 5/12/2005
Msg: 92 | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/13/2006 9:00:53 AM | And, in regard to the topic, yes...reincarnation was among the teachings/beliefs of the earliest Christians (yes, including Origen). This doctrine was later deemed 'heretical' for ulterior purposes and all references to it taken out at ensuing councils, mainly the Council of Nicea, 325 A.D.
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I would like to see some proof of that as the Nicea council was conducted for the purpose of putting out an agnostic group claiming that Jesus was not of divine qualities. They were overuled in 325 AD | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/13/2006 9:04:57 AM | "...the Nicea Council was conducted for the purpose of putting out an agnostic group claiming that Jesus was not of divine qualities..."
Not true. More misinformation. That^^ is laughable...WHERE did you get that info? | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/13/2006 6:12:18 PM | | I like to think that we're here until we get it right...then we move onto another plane or existence, after who knows how many lives on this earth. I mean, really, who knows? No one can say for sure about any of this, but it's interesting to talk about. I would like to think that at some point reincarnation could be a proven fact, and in many people's minds, it has been proven - things some kids do or say, that they may have gotten from another life; the Cayce phenomina. As for whether it goes against all Christian biblical beliefs, that doesn't matter to me - maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. Seems to me Christianity has missed the boat somewhere along the way - so called Christians pick and choose what they want out of the bible and teachings and forget most of the rest, the people in Washington these days being the most visable. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/13/2006 10:33:34 PM | If there was reincarnation the cross would not have been needed. And it would have been a waste!
The bible says that a man dies once and then his judgment.
Thats what I believe, I thank the Lord Jesus. He did the hard work for me. I sure don't want to come back! :) Imagine high school twice!! Talk about hell!  | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/14/2006 4:16:35 AM | The bible says that a man dies once and then his judgment.
Though, as many here have pointed out, there are numerous passages that are at least suggestive of reincarnation, the line paraphrased above is the ONLY line in the Bible that seems to directly contradict the possibility of reincarnation. Even then, the operative word might be "seems". Lazarus, who was raised from the dead by Jesus, seems to be an exception to that "rule". Even leaving that exception aside, one can interpret the passage as follows. A man, as that man, does die once. If and when he comes back, he is no longer the same man with the same personality and perhaps might not even be a man but a woman. Only the soul remains the same. Between incarnations, there is a judgment that takes place and that judgment is done by the spark of God that exists in that soul. This judgment and the subsequent incarnations of that soul are governed by what the God within determines is necessary for that soul to progress spiritually and to complete it's mission to return and finally be fully reunited with and become one with God.
Origen, the brilliant Church Father and Christian scholar, writer and teacher who was noted for his singularly pure, noble character and martyred for his faith, taught that reincarnation was "a very plausible idea" and wrote that "every soul comes into this world strengthened by the victories and weakened by the defeats of its previous life. Its place in the world, as a vessel appointed to honor or dishonor, is determined by its previous merits or demerits." In 553 AD, the Byzantine emperor Justinian, who was forever meddling in the affairs of the Church, summoned the Fifth Ecumenical Congress of Constantinople, a council that was so highly politicized and controversial that the current Pope, Vigilius, refused to even attend it. At that council, Origen and his sensible teachings were banished from "orthodox" Christianity as follows: "If anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls and shall assert the monstrous restoration that follows it, let him be anathema (accursed)."
Personally, I don't take my spiritual views from debased Roman emperors. Here's another bit of history that you might enjoy: "History is written by the winners and 'heresy' is defined by the theological victors. The 'orthodox' were those on whose side the Christian emperor stood because ultimately he held the power to appoint and to exile bishops ... What is humorous in hindsight is that those who were the "heretics" kept changing, as a Trinitarian emperor was succeeded by an Arian one and vice versa ...After yet another conciliar flip flop, St. Jerome wrote, 'the Nicene faith stood condemned by acclamation. The whole world groaned and was astonished to find itself Arian.' "
Divine punishments are meant to be corrective, not to enable God -- who tells us to be like Him, merciful and forgiving -- to indulge His supposed need for revenge. Biblical prescriptions such as "be not deceived; as a man sows, surely shall he reap" and "he that killeth with the sword shall be killed with the sword; he that leadeth into captivity shall be led into captivity" can hardly be fulfilled in any better manner than is suggested in the doctrine of reincarnation. The God I believe in is not the Cosmic Torturer that some insist He is.
Oh, and Jimy ... no offense, but I don't want your banana anyway. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/14/2006 4:33:13 AM |
I need no afterlife or spiritual guru to keep me functioning and living for higher ethics.
This from a guy who admits he has a great deal of sympathy for the principles of Satanism which include such examples of "higher ethics" as "if someone bothers you, destroy him". OK, Taurus, whatever you say. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/14/2006 10:14:30 PM | @artandsoul
As I see it, the OP loves Jesus and the basic message of Christianity but finds the explanations about the nature of life, death and the afterlife that are generally offered by evangelical, fundamentalist and other "orthodox" Christian thinkers to be a little hard to swallow. They are -- unless you believe that God doesn't want us to think for ourselves and that we should accept these simplistic teachings on blind faith.
I really couldn't have said this better myself! This is exactly true: I do love the basic messages of Jesus and Christianity! The Morals of Jesus are text book, and all humans should incorporate them into their lives! YET, there are so many confusing and contradictory things written in the bible, which may be partially due to misinterpretation, and are not so easy to follow very accurately or always convincingly.
Also, I can't say I'm a hundred convinced of everything the bibles have to say, because of all the different Christian religions who all seem to have much different views of Christianity from each other's. So then, who his right? The Jehovah witnesses believe all other religions and versions of Christianity, like Catholics and Mormons and etc, are in fact, FALSE religions!! The point I'm trying to make is for centuries people have scoffed at each other's views of Christianity and have rewritten the bible over and over in their own interpretations, so how bad can it be to ponder the idea of reincarnation and its possible ties to Christianity? After all, I am not a 100% convinced of reincarnation either, but I do believe 100% in a higher power: GOD and JESUS!!  | |
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