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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/14/2006 10:21:39 PM | I do love the basic messages of Jesus and Christianity! The Morals of Jesus are text book, and all humans should incorporate them into their lives!
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Dito that.That I will stand for always lest I fall for anything. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/15/2006 6:59:17 AM | This from a guy who admits he has a great deal of sympathy for the principles of Satanism which include such examples of "higher ethics" as "if someone bothers you, destroy him". OK, Taurus, whatever you say.
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That just means that I look at ALL philosophies and religions and take from each what I like and discard what I don't like. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/15/2006 3:39:54 PM | This from a guy who admits he has a great deal of sympathy for the principles of Satanism which include such examples of "higher ethics" as "if someone bothers you, destroy him". OK, Taurus, whatever you say.
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That just means that I look at ALL philosophies and religions and take from each what I like and discard what I don't like.
Well, Taurus, wandering slightly off topic as we may be doing here, this is an oft taken position that is not without merit in many cases. Many would say that reincarnation is incompatible with Christian belief, for instance; those of us who say it isn't are basically adopting your principle of taking from various religions what we like and discarding what we don't like. I take from Hinduism and Buddhism the idea of reincarnation and blend it with the parts of Christianity that I can accept and do believe in. Meanwhile, I discard the fundamentalist Christian concept of eternal torment in Hell for believers in other faiths and toss it in the garbage where, in my opinion, it belongs.
Still, there's a limit to what beliefs can be successfully integrated into a coherent philosophy. All the major religions are similar if not identical in their teachings on moral conduct and what constitutes "higher ethics". Given that the similarities are arguably more striking than the differences, they can be blended successfully in many cases. Satanism, on the other hand, is in most respects diametrically opposed to everything that these religions stand for. If you're going to include Satanist teachings in your smorgasbord of spiritual beliefs that you pick and choose from, you're not going to end up with a very digestible dish and it really doesn't say much for your belief in any "higher ethics". | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/15/2006 5:09:35 PM | If you're going to include Satanist teachings in your smorgasbord of spiritual beliefs that you pick and choose from, you're not going to end up with a very digestible dish and it really doesn't say much for your belief in any "higher ethics".
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These beliefs too,can be subjective.As I'm fond of saying,"The only difference between turds and lillies are what people have agreed on.I may not always agree." | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/15/2006 7:37:18 PM | | didn't read the thread, just the op. reincarnation was part of the recognized doctrine of the christian church. i don't remember which council it was that decided htat they needed to get rid of it, maybe the council of nicea. the idea behind declaring the concept heretical was that if people believed that they had more than one life, the church would have less chance of controlling them through fear. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/15/2006 11:33:50 PM |
that if people believed that they had more than one life, the church would have less chance of controlling them through fear.
That does not make sense Sidd. The law of Karma in reincarnation has a fear aspect and/or control in it. If you don't do well in this incarnation you come back in a worse physical condition before as I understand the Hindu version of it.
The bible fragments that are extant at the present do not favour a reading of reincarnation into the bible. I have no doubt that the belief in reincarnation was around before and during the time of Jesus. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/16/2006 12:30:31 AM |
reincarnation was part of the recognized doctrine of the christian church. i don't remember which council it was that decided htat they needed to get rid of it, maybe the council of nicea. the idea behind declaring the concept heretical was that if people believed that they had more than one life, the church would have less chance of controlling them through fear.
Sid, it was the Fifth Ecumenical Congress of Constantinople, presided over by the emperor Justinian in 553 AD, as noted in message 99. As far as I know, it was not an officially recognized doctrine of the church but it was believed in and taught by some people in the church. Where did you get your information from regarding the reasons for banning this doctrine? | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/16/2006 12:47:11 AM |
"As I see it, the OP loves Jesus and the basic message of Christianity but finds the explanations about the nature of life, death and the afterlife that are generally offered by evangelical, fundamentalist and other "orthodox" Christian thinkers to be a little hard to swallow."
I really couldn't have said this better myself! This is exactly true: I do love the basic messages of Jesus and Christianity!
Been there, my friend ... that's why I understood where you are coming from. If I hadn't discovered the concept of reincarnation as explained in the Edgar Cayce readings -- in a way that shows it to be it very compatible with Christian belief -- I'd be an agnostic myself. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/16/2006 7:27:40 AM | Hi,
Much has been said about reincarnation in this thread. In this thread, I have seen reference to several dates and councils where reincarnation was declared heresy and banned as part of Christianity. In a secular history I saw the Second council of Constantinople in 553 as the date that it was banned. If one reads only the Bible or 'church history' then it is only reasonable to not find a reference to the banning of reincarnation.
There was a mention of God wanting us to think. If there is justice, then God would practice justice. If life is a one shot deal, where is the justice in an Einstein, and a mongoloid idiot? In a series of books by Neal D Walsh called "Conversation With God" the author asks 'whoever' he is getting his information from about reincarnation. He asked how many past lives he had lived and received an answer of over 400. In the Eastern metaphysical literature, it states to become a Master one must master 30 occupations. Brian Weiss, M. D. has written several books on his personal experience of his patients telling him about one or more of their past lives. Michael Newton a Ph. D. pschologist has written of his patients telling him of life between life. If the purpose of being on planet Earth is spiritual growth, then perhaps it takes many lifetimes to complete the job.
I was invited to give a presentation to a group of Christian ministers a few years back. In my opening remarks, I stated that most of them taught that Jesus was the first and last of his kind. I then went on to say that Jesus taught different. He said 'these things I do you can do greater'. By "you" I took it to mean all humans could grow enough spiritually to do more than the things Jesus did 2000 years ago. Jesus also taught 'what so ever you do to the least of your bretherin, you do unto me'. I stated to the ministers that to me this ment that each human had within themselves an 'embryonic' Christ. As a female of age five has ovaries and a uters and does not menustrate because she is not physically mature enough, the Christ within us is not spritually mature enough to function as it did in Jesus 2000 tears ago. If (since) it was commonly understood that reincarnation was taken as fact before it was banned by a chuch council several hundred years later, it would take many life times to acheive this level of spiritual growth. This is the way in which the above teachings of Jesus make sense to me.
Remember in the Bible very little of the life of Jesus is covered. There are prophicies about his birth, his first two years in Israel before his family and the family of his cousin John(the Baptist) fled to Egypt, and the last three years of his life. There is also an incident at age 12 where he was discussing theology with priests and was very knowledeable on the subject. One can only conclude that he had been studying under the priest of his day. In a book called "The Aquarian Gosple of Jesus The Christ", it fills in the missing years, where He was and what He was doing. But this is getting off topic.
Peace,
Mack | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/16/2006 2:26:08 PM |
If life is a one shot deal, where is the justice in an Einstein, and a mongoloid idiot?
Good point, Mack -- this is only one example of the myriad inequities of life that are explained by a reincarnationist theory as they can never be by any of the standard fundamentalist theories of life and death. Here's another one. Fundamentalists are often hard pressed to explain what happens to infants who die shortly after birth. Are they "saved"? Of course, most of them will say, well, certainly God wouldn't condemn an infant to Hell who had never really had a chance to accept or reject Jesus -- so they must go to Heaven. If that's so, that's great for those souls -- but why would God be so unfair as to basically give them a free pass to Heaven while the rest of us, born in sin and hopelessly flawed as they say that we are, have to be tested by life and stand a good chance of going to Hell because we make a wrong decision? No matter which way you slice it, God doesn't come out of any of the fundamentalist scenarios looking very fair or just. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/16/2006 6:55:54 PM | Yes I think reincarnation goes against all Christian biblical beliefs. It takes away all accountability. "oh well, if I don`t get it right this time I have all the lives I want to get it right." I guess being partially right the first time with all that has been given to you will get you partially into heaven.
"They" say that when the soul leaves the body that whatever has a hold of you will draw you back. Well, if Jesus doesn`t have a hold maybe you will be drawn back. But you might have to be pretty quick to snag earth on your way down. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/16/2006 7:43:24 PM | This life on earth seems long to us, but not to God and the angels in heaven.
To them this is like going out on Saturday night. Some people don't remember the drive home.
Why is it so difficult for some to think that we choose to return or not? If I have a problem 'getting something right' in this life, I might choose to come back and try it again and change the particulars of my being. Or I might just be here to help someone else through their 'learning' experience. Like a good neighbor (Ash sings)...
I might go out Saturday nite; go back the next Saturday and change my destination, hairdo, outfit and pick up methodology. Yet another night I might just be the designated driver. The outcome will be different. Life goes on. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/16/2006 9:50:06 PM | Yes I think reincarnation goes against all Christian biblical beliefs. It takes away all accountability.
Key, my friend, what are you thinking? According to every credible theory of reincarnation out there, the law of karma governs all incarnations of a person. Karma IS accountability -- a very precise form of accountability, in fact. "As ye reap, so shall ye sow" ... "Give and it shall be given unto you" -- these are very Christian, very biblical statements of the very same principle.
For instance, if you steal in this life, somewhere along the line, whether in this life or another, someone's going to steal from you. Logical conclusion if you're the kind of person who steals: don't bother, you won't be gaining anything. What's the point of stealing? If you're the kind of person who steals just for the thrill of it, go ahead, says the law of karma (much like God giving us free will?) -- someday, somehow, somewhere, SOMEONE ELSE will steal from YOU for the sheer joy of it.
Contrast that kind of precise and inescapable accountability with (so called) "Christian" teachings that a gangster who makes a deathbed plea for salvation magically dodges the bullet -- yet again, in the afterlife as in his earthly life -- when he is admitted directly into Heaven despite his atrocious and evil doings in his one shot existence on Earth? How biblical is that? How does a belief like that affirm or uphold the principle of accountability?
"oh well, if I don`t get it right this time I have all the lives I want to get it right."
Key, that's exactly how some souls will respond to the idea of reincarnation. Those people are of the "live for the moment, have fun now and pay for it later" school of thought. Some suggest that this is one of the reasons that the idea of reincarnation was "banned" from orthodox Christianity -- the fear that people would take this attitude, think they had forever to get their acts together spiritually and act accordingly.
My speculation is that the longer it takes for the law of karma -- translate this as "the law of God" -- to hold you accountable for your sins, the harsher the payback may be. Like a debt on which the interest due gets larger the longer it remains unpaid -- and perhaps proving the biblical statement "sow the wind, reap the whirlwind". Logically, some people might consider this a good reason not to keep "sowing the wind" without worrying about the consequences. On the other hand, many will persist in their "do as you will today and tomorrow be dam*ed" ways -- for as long as they can, at least. Don't Christians who think they're already saved, who know they should act more like real Christians but keep putting it off and making excuses for themselves, in effect, do the same thing?
The other question that you raise is: do we get an infinite number of lives, an infinite number of chances to get it right? Some say that a soul cannot continue indefinitely on a downward, "hellbound" spiral -- that eventually a soul may stray so far from God that it will, in effect, be lost forever. Perhaps this is a fulfillment of Biblical statements about the "second death". Perhaps it is an example of the sin that cannot be forgiven according to Jesus, ie, "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" -- that a soul given innumerable chances to heed the Spirit and save itself instead chose sin and death so deliberately and with such determination. According to this version of reincarnationist belief, such a soul would indeed finally blot itself out of the "Book of Life", more or less be absorbed into God or the universe, and -- finally -- truly experience "death" not only on Earth but as an individual soul. But those who had strayed afar and "made their beds in Hell" yet still had some good left in them, some kind of yearning for God and for "good" itself, would never be given up on by the God "who hath not willed that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." How long would the God we believe in, who urges us to forgive not once, not seventy times but seventy times seven times, continue to search for his lost sheep?
I don't know if you'll find this of any help when you consider whether the idea of reincarnation is truly in contradiction to the principles of Christianity and the Bible. Some are so "set in their ways" on these matters that even if Jesus appeared to them tomorrow and told them otherwise, the next day some fundamentalist pastor would manage to convince them it was only a demon posing as Jesus --- because "the Bible says ...."
I think you are able and willing to think for yourself though, Key. Staying tuned ... | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/17/2006 9:27:58 AM | Hi Artand soul,
Appreciate the many good points you make in post 117. Look at butterflies, they start out as worms crawling on the ground and end up beautiful creatures that fly. If God can transform worms to flying creatures, what is in store for humans? If you take the 'worm' as one life, the 'cocoon' as another and then the flying creature, it takes 3 lives to make a butterfly. How many life times does it take for the 'prodigal son' (humans who have strayed from The Father's level of consciousness) to return to the Father. Would suggest reading "The Disappearance of the Universe". It deals with reincarnation in a believable manner.
Buddahism and Judasim accept reincarnation as factual. It was once part of Christianity and was forced out by a church council a few hundred years after Jesus, The Christ was tacked to the cross. I have heard the reason was that the wife of the Roman Emperor was living a very wild life. One of the ministers told her that because of the power of her husband, nothing could be done but in some future life she would have to correct her errors. This made her so uncomfortable that she pursuaded her husband to ban the teaching of reincarnation as part of Christianity. (Do not remember the source of this story.) But we are still stuck with the idea that life is to make spiritual growth until we reach that state where "The Father and I are as One" or life is a one shot deal and is the cruelist of all jokes. Even Albert Einstein said that God does not shoot craps with the laws of the Universe. If this is true of physical laws, then reason says that it is equally or more true of spiritual laws. i e Life has a purpose and that purpose is to grow enough spiritually to reach "at One with the All" or atonement (at-one-ment). In the parable of the talents, the person who did not use their talents was punished. One of the talents of humans is the ability to think and reason, apply this talent to life-reincarnation and see what you get.
Peace,
Mack | |
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| Biblical beliefs reincarnated
Posted: 1/17/2006 11:29:31 AM | Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down:)—The quotation, which is used to show that the book of the Law taught the very principles of the gospel concerning justification by faith, is from Deuteronomy 30:11–14. It is taken from the Septuagint, with certain modifications and with some parenthetic explanations, so as to apply the details of the passage the more pointedly. Thus, “Who shall ascend into heaven?” is explained by the statement, “that is, to bring Christ down”; in other words, to bring about His reincarnation.
New Agers believe that eventually there will be one universal religion. And of course they believe that the universal religion, the new way of looking at things, will transform society, will bring about a new age. Others work actively toward a transformation of society with a networking of like-minded individuals to transform education, ecological policy, business organization, national and world politics, and more. They have merged with the holistic health movement. Many of them have joined human rights and animal rights organizations. Since personal transformation requires a long path of growth and cannot be completed in one lifetime, a great many in the movement have subscribed to a belief in reincarnation.5
The New Age movement is so dangerous because it seems so right for modern man. It denies the objective reality of evil centered in an evil being called Satan. It inclines itself towards “good” things. It seeks to encourage the full development of human potential. It champions nature, world peace, a new world order. It seems so obviously Christian in its focus on God, Christ, good, world order, full human and earthly happiness.2
I would be safe to assert that the greatest threat to Christianity in the world today is the New Age movement, not Satanism, not the revival of traditional religions like Islam, not even secular humanism. The New Age movement has all the appeal of the one-world religion of the antichrist. It will not necessarily bring in the antichrist, but it is the type of all-inclusive world religion with which the antichrist will be very comfortable.
Once secular humanism was Christianity’s major competition. Coming from western Europe, secular humanism swept across the U.S. from the East coast. It took over America within a few decades. It became law in this nation through major Supreme Court decisions made in the 1960s through the 1980s. Secular humanism directly contradicts the U.S. Declaration of Independence. That document declares, “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal. They are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”
The Supreme Court overturned in principle, if not in fact, this part of the Declaration of Independence. It outlawed the teaching of biblical creation in our schools; thus there is no Creator. It outlawed school-sponsored prayer. It made school-sponsored Bible reading unlawful. It said the Ten Commandments could not be taught in public schools, nor even be posted in a classroom within the public education system in the U.S.
A gigantic, national spiritual vacuum resulted. The U.S. is one of the most religious nations on earth. We cannot live without God or religion. Secular humanism left us unsatisfied. We became a nation of technicians without peace of mind. We became comfortable, middle-class consumers without real purpose in life. We became secular giants but ethical infants. We had to have a god to be truly human.
Paralleling this sweep of secular humanism in America was the birth and growth of the Age of Aquarius. It began with dissatisfied young people, but it grew in momentum till it is now one of the greatest spiritual forces at work in America. Although a syncretism of different groups, it holds basically a Far Eastern world view.
Dr. Norman Geisler, when asked to explain what the New Age movement is, points to a unique cartoon to give the answer. It is the picture of a man, “an Easterner, sitting in a Western business suit, in an Eastern Lotus position, meditating on his Macintosh.”3
With a guitar and cigarette Peace to you my questionable friend | |
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| Biblical beliefs reincarnated
Posted: 1/17/2006 1:18:17 PM | Key~You have GOT to be kidding me. It never ceases to absolutely astound me, the depths some ppl will intellectually stoop to in order to justify their hatred or fear of other belief systems (or of what their *pastor or some kooky, 'religious' author of a book says about them).
So...let me get this straight-you're saying in your post that you agree that New Agers are dangerous, bad ppl who (paraphrasing):'are working to improve education, human rights, animal rights, and ecological policy. They incline themselves toward "good" things, seek to encourage ppls full potential, and champion nature and world peace. It seems so obviously Christian in it's focus on God, Christ, good, world order, human and world happiness.'
You somehow twist and contort this to mean they are somehow errant, and their ways are ushering in the anti-christ. And then you wonder why intelligent ppl are leaving (or staying away from) organized Christianity in droves. Do you even realize how ridiculous your assertion sounds? I, honestly, don't think you even do. What would you suggest these New Agers do with their time *instead* of championing education, peace, human happiness, or human rights? I suppose maybe going to a building a few times a week singing songs about God, having bake sales to raise money for the seniors of the congregation's bus trip to WallyWorld, holding discussion groups about the Apocolyse (while practically drooling) in each others homes, or helping pass out the cards and chips on 'Bingo Night' would be time better spent, in your opinion. UN-believeable that you managed to find evil in this.Purely and simply conditioning and/or brainwashing at it's finest. There's no other *rational explanation for such a bizarre belief system, unless you're...err- a little 'unbalanced.' You're basically saying that Satan would love ppl who are educated, happy, peaceful, repected nature, realized their full potential, and respected each others human rights (since youre hinting that New Agers are bad/errant and are more of a 'threat' that Satan worshippers).
So, being as Satan is opposed to God, what would that make God like/prefer? I can't believe I even responded to such a ridiculous, asinine post. I shouldn't have...*bangs head*
EDIT: wtf did this have to do with the thread topic? lmao... | |
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| Biblical beliefs reincarnated
Posted: 1/17/2006 4:21:16 PM | Were do all the souls come from ??
And then you wonder why intelligent ppl are leaving (or staying away from) organized Christianity in droves.
I know lots of intelligent people who are in "christianity", lawyers, doctors, nurses, engineers and the list goes on.
Ever read the book by Marylin Ferguson "the aquarian conspiracy" . The Lucis Trust (formerly Lucifer Publishing ) instituted by Alice A. Bailey is a clearing house for the new age agenda. The New Age agenda is everywhere in the West.
There's a conspiracy all right.. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/17/2006 4:56:22 PM | To me it does. It would unravel the bulk of major doctrines. I don't see it as being a possibilty where the Bible is concerned but I'll not build an argument from silence nor defend my position, as you requested passages in favor of, not against.
As to ALL Christian beliefs, I cannot say. Edgar Cayce (I'm sure there are others, but he comes to mind) held to both reincarnation and the Bible. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/17/2006 5:31:04 PM |
To me it does. It would unravel the bulk of major doctrines.
Certainly the idea of reincarnation would unravel some of the major doctrines held to by SOME fundamentalist Christians, Harry -- for instance, the idea that accepting Jesus as your saviour instantaneously gets you a free pass to Heaven regardless of how you live after that single event. The question is -- how biblical are some of those doctrines themselves? | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/17/2006 10:43:08 PM | I think the basis for reincarnation being not Christian is the fact that no matter how many times you come through this planet, you can't enter heaven by your own works. That is what reincarnation sets out to do. A long cycle of failures till you get it right. That brings up "What is right"? Where is the instruction book on how to get it right? To me the bible says it plainly.
I serve the Lords people. The church is people. It's not the building. I've been at odds for a long time over what the world sees "Christians" do. Don't count me in with the raffles and the cake bakes and the abortion clinic bombers. Jesus is my example and that's not what he did. He preached (to sinners), teached (the believers) and healed the sick (any with faith).
The unseen is the real stuff. This earth is temporary. We have our thinking backwards. THe laws that keep us a float will not last for ever. Only Gods word last forever. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/17/2006 11:40:54 PM | The thought of reincarnation would distract one from worshipping God.
Since it may lead to speculation about past lives and future lives, reincarnation is thus considered a risk of becoming a distraction from such wholehearted worship.
For it's the First Commandment, to worship only God.
So yes, reincarnation goes against Christian beliefs.
However, since the topic of this thread does not ask if reincarnation goes against my personal beliefs, I'll stop right here. | |
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