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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/20/2006 7:07:09 AM | Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Message: ahhhhh, good old fashion christian/methodist pragmatic trollery.
expected as much. (or as little).
negativity seems to be quite pervasive in the christian world.
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Sorry that I made light of your beliefs in this area.
I think that the basis of what Jesus has done for us, who we were (lost,w/o hope)before that and the promise of our new inheritance are points that cannot be debated w/o turning away from His teachings.
All the other points that the bible says or doesn`t say is really open to personal interpretation, not worth fighting over because it doesn`t change salvation, yet fun to do so anyway. We all feel we have to stick up for "our way" of believing" when the ONLY thing we need to be sticking up for is when JESUS AND WHAT HE HAS DONE, is taking a hit.
Have a great day
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/20/2006 7:10:08 AM |
There is life to be lived, a final judgment, eternal rewards and punishments, and you will spend eternity in one of two places. It is impossible to say that both this message and that of reincarnation are both true. That is a contradiction.
Reincarnation: "a reappearance or revitalization in another form; a new embodiment".
Can this definintion not be used in Christianity? Isn't it a fundamental belief of Christians that we will receive a new embodiment/another form for eternity?
Reincarnation: "rebirth of the soul in another body".
This definition is used to denote the recurring cycle of "reincarnation" used by Eastern philosophy. The return to earth again and again in the flesh until spiritual perfection is attained. I can't comment upon this belief further because I don't know enough about it.
I can't see a contradiction as neither definition excludes faith/belief in Christ. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/20/2006 7:10:45 AM | 2weird
just do the right thing - forgive all injustices brought upon you, love everyone (not only the ones that you think are deserving), be kind, understanding and patient and you will be doing god's work.
My quote was more in response to the above, ie doing gods work rather than reincarnation... | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/20/2006 7:18:57 AM | Reincarnation: "rebirth of the soul in another body".
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Christian`s are to have there whole self ressurected . The same body is restores in indistructable form. in the next age to come. Jesus was the first. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/20/2006 7:47:10 AM | "My quote was more in response to the above, ie doing gods work rather than reincarnation... "
ahhhh, won long pong, then we agree, bc "to believe in the one whom he hath sent" is to believe in his teaching of unconditionally love. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/21/2006 6:00:04 AM |
Christian`s are to have there whole self ressurected . The same body is restores in indistructable form. in the next age to come. Jesus was the first.
Now hold on there, Key. What if a person is as ugly as a stick in this life? Do they have to spend eternity like that? How fair is that?  | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/21/2006 7:36:50 AM | Hey but what does scripture say,
john 5:26-29
Just as the Father has life in Himself , so He gave to the Son to also have life in Himself, and He gave Him authority to execute judgement because He is the Son of man. Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all the tombs will hear His voive and will come forth: those who have done good, to the resurection of life,and those who have practised evil to the resurrection of judgement.
romans 8:11
and if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.
2nd Peter 1:14-16
knowing that the putting of of my tabernacle is immenent, even as also our Lord Jesus Christ made it clear to me. Moreover I will also be diligent that you may be able, after my exodus, to bring these things to mind at all times.For we do not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and the coming of our Lord Jesus, but we became eyewitnesses of that One`s majesty.
You have the same book I do so I`m sure you can find more.
So, yup, dirt ugly, and Jesus can clean ya up. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/21/2006 8:16:09 AM | It's remarkable how pragmatic christians are so fixated on the corporeal world. how very concrete.
Our true nature, our spirit, our soul is intangible. Our true selves are incorporeal and fall outside the spectrum of what human beings consider to be attractive. Physical beauty is a human contrivance. All souls are beautiful because they are spawned from the creator. All are pure.
Our physical bodies are only 'used cars' our souls house themselves in while we await our return to the incorporeal world.
I guess key believes that all muslims, hindus, buddhists, taoists and ppl of other faiths go to hell (which doesn't exist - only a place devised by ancient scholars to scare young children and bad ppl into behaving more civilized).
So if I'm a teenager born and raised in central asia and raised zoroastrian and I get killed by an american bomb I go to hell because I havent accepted jesus (whom I may or may not be aware of his existence) into my heart. right. get a grip. I wonder if catholics believe protestants burn in hell and vice versa because each doesnt accept the others man-made dogma.
check this link for the universal golden rule - all religions have the same same purpose.
http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/goldrule.htm
It amazes me how christians feel they have a monopoly on the here-ever-after. christianity is about acceptance of others beliefs. some people's faith blinds them. I choose to see all the beauty in the world, even if it is represented by some other religion.
to repeat - many different religions in which to worship and express your faith - ONE GOD. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/21/2006 8:44:35 AM | 2 weird
I don`t mind debating on things that are debatable but I have not the time nor the inclination to repeat what I have already stated numerous times before.
I state my beliefs , you can state yours if you wish. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/21/2006 3:11:58 PM |
Jesus has already told you, no man comes to the Father except by him, Jesus. How much simpler do you want it to be. It is very simple. One way, man, one way to God, that is through the Son, my lord and savior, the Jewish Messiah, and ours as well. Praise Jesus!
I always get a kick out of the way that fundamentalists insist that the Bible should be taken literally -- except when it doesn't suit their particular belief system! When a particular verse contradicts the point of view that they themselves cherish, they insist on an allegorical interpretation. Flip, flop, flip, flop, flip, flop ... it's as dependable as the ticking of a clock.
Here's a case in point:
"And the disciples asked Him, 'Then why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?' He replied, 'Elijah does come and he is to restore all things; but I tell you that Elijah has already come and they did not know him, but did to him as they pleased.... Then the disciples understood that He was speaking to them of John the Baptist."
Matthew 17: 10-13
Gorilla, how much simpler do you want it to be? Literally speaking, what can this possibly mean except that John was actually Elijah reincarnated?
Now, before someone starts to go on about how Elijah never actually died, don't waste your breath -- because it's irrelevant. Elijah didn't drop down from the sky as an adult just carrying on from where he left off with a new name. John the Baptist was born as an infant into a new body. His mother was Elizabeth. Check chapter 1 of the gospel of Luke if you don't believe me. John the Baptist was Elijah reincarnated. It is very simple. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/21/2006 3:20:05 PM | Jesus commissioned the apostles to teach and preach the Christianity faith. In Heb. 9:27 it says, "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment." This verse alone shows that reincarnation is not true. Also, reincarnation negates the necessity of the Cross because reincarnation teaches you can have different lives in which to try and "get it right." Not so in Christianity. According to the Bible, God gives us one chance to escape the clutches of sin . God has given us the Law which states that we are not to lie, to cheat, or steal. But, we all have. Therefore, we are all under the judgment of God and He will execute His judgment upon us . If reincarnation is true, then there is no Day of Judgment, no need of a sacrifice, no need to trust in Christ.
Reincarnation does not remove sin. Also, reincarnation contradicts the Bible which presents Jesus with His miracles, fulfilled prophecies, resurrection, and so much more. Reincarnation denies the Day of Judgment. Also, think about this. Reincarnation works with karma, the idea that your past lives "goodness" or "badness" affects the quality and position of your next incarnation. The purpose of reincarnation is to help you develop perfect karma by which you might then achieve a union with the divine consciousness after you have learned whatever it is you are supposed to learn. The problem is that each person had a first incarnation. That means that each person then had perfect Karma since he had no previous life and had done nothing wrong. Therefore, if he had perfect Karma and didn't learn or do what he was supposed to in his first life, then what makes him think that after hundreds of incarnations with accumulated bad karma that he will be able to achieve the perfect state of union with the divine consciousness that reincarnation moves him toward? It doesn't make any sense.
But what does make sense is that there is one God who has revealed Himself in Jesus Christ in Him, and not your own efforts of going through various lives to try and become perfect. reincarnation is not only false, it is empty | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/21/2006 4:13:50 PM | Key, it was John who denied that he was Elijah -- because he probably didn't KNOW that he was. Jesus did, however, because, according to the Bible, He made it quite clear to his own disciples that John was, in fact, Elijah returned to the earth as promised in earlier scriptures.
Here's another interesting biblical passage re reincarnation-- and this one is often quoted by people on both sides of this fence to prove their point:
And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man who had been blind from birth. And his disciples asked Him, saying, 'Master, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?' Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents. He was born blind that the works of God might be made manifest in him."
John 9: 1-3
Now, the enemies of reincarnationist theory will say, "See? His blindness had nothing to do with sins committed in a previous life. So much for reincarnationist theory!" Then they will generally go on to say that this poor blind basta*d had to live his whole life up to that point in darkness just so that Jesus could come along one day and heal him for God's glory. Well, if that's what you call a just God, then I have to ask, who sinned, you or your supposed Christian "teachers", that you became so blind? Isn't this a slander on God's character?
Those who think this way should open their eyes and take another look. First, the question itself makes no sense unless the disciples supposed that reincarnation -- or, at the very least, pre-existence of the soul before it incarnated in a body -- was a fact. Now, why didn't Jesus take this golden opportunity to burst the reincarnationist bubble right then and there? Why didn't He say, "Peter, John, Matthew! What have you been smoking so early in the day? How could the man have sinned before he was born? Father, give me patience!"
Here's why He didn't, in my opinion. He did not question or refute the basic assumption of the disciples that a soul could sin before it was born into this life because He Himself knew that it was not only possible but certain. He was making a point that we are not to judge -- as some people who believe in reincarnation do -- that whatever miseries people are born into are of their own making (due to their sins in other lives) and that therefore we should let them suffer and have no compassion for them.
The whole point of reincarnation -- in a Christian reincarnationist outlook -- is to give erring souls the opportunity to manifest the love of God in their lives and in the lives of others. The law of "karma" -- which governs the incarnation of souls -- is intended not primarily to punish us but, rather, to educate us. "Whom the Lord loveth, He chasteneth." The soul that was born as a blind man might have even chosen this plight ITSELF -- perhaps for its own spiritual growth, perhaps for the opportunities that this condition presented to others to learn compassion and, yes, perhaps even so that Jesus could demonstrate the works and the glory of God by healing him. Think of the cry of Job to the Lord after his many trials: "I had heard of thee by the hearing of the ear but now my eyes see thee." (Job 42:05) Perhaps, in many cases, it is only through suffering that we are prepared to receive our "sight" and become able to truly manifest the grace and love of God.
In any case, this passage -- and the various possible interpretations of it -- once again illustrate the fact that, as the Christian reincarnationist Edgar Cayce said, "I can read reincarnation into the Bible and you can read it right back out again." | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/21/2006 4:31:49 PM |
In Heb. 9:27 it says, "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment." This verse alone shows that reincarnation is not true.
Davie, I've seen posts of yours that are very thoughtful and sensible but this one (msg. 178) isn't among them. See message 99 for other possible interpretations of the one and ONLY verse in the Bible that SEEMS to directly contradict the idea of reincarnation. I'll have more to say about the rest of your statement later. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/21/2006 4:36:31 PM | | The apostles question about the possibility of having sinned before birth should not necessarily be judged as indicating an existing belief in reincarnation, at that time in Israel. It rather confirms that some religious factions believed that the fetus can sin in his mother womb. If Jesus had considered reincarnation to be true, surely He would have used this opportunity - as was His custom - to explain to them the law of karma and reincarnation, as an immediate application to that man’s situation. Jesus never missed such occasions to instruct his disciples on spiritual matters, and reincarnation would have been a crucial doctrine for them to understand. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/21/2006 4:45:05 PM | river loon ... my deepest and most humble apologies. it should have read "some" christians.
well said artandsoul. you've described it well. choose life paths to enhance spiritual growth not only for you but for those you come in contact with. the blind man parable also reminds me of the notion that older souls often are challenged in life somehow. down's for example. they are very kind, generous, loving and forgiving children and feel no malice towards others or the need to exact revenge. a short life (which is allegedly more desirable bc it is our foremost desire to be in close proximity to the creator in the here-ever-after). in any event, they have much human contact and bring out the best in people, and get to return quicker.
we all have some purpose to demonstrate god's glory. how we interact with others and how we impact their lives to enhance spiritual evolution.
"Only Love is Real" is one of the better books regarding the subject and it ties in why scriptual proverbs and christ's teachings are the manner in which we should live our lives. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/21/2006 4:51:11 PM |
Also, reincarnation contradicts the Bible which presents Jesus with His miracles, fulfilled prophecies, resurrection, and so much more.
How so? I believe in reincarnation and I also believe in "Jesus with His miracles, fulfilled prophecies, resurrection and so much more". Where's the contradiction?
Reincarnation denies the Day of Judgment.
Not at all. Reincarnation and the law of karma is all ABOUT the "Day of Judgment". As opposed to fundamentalist Christian teachings -- which allow the possibility that a rank, vile sinner will get into Heaven on the basis of a deathbed prayer for salvation while others who lived decent, compassionate lives will rot in Hell forever -- reincarnationist theory insists on a very fair, very precise "judgment", a TRUE fulfillment of biblical statements such as "God is not mocked; as a man sows, so surely shall he reap" and "he that killeth by the sword shall be killed by the sword". And referring to the "Day" of judgment, remember that a thousand years is like a day to the Lord, according to Peter.
Judgement and salvation are ongoing processes, not instantaneous events. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/21/2006 5:04:33 PM | Art :- from the ISV.... "Judgement and salvation are ongoing processes, not instantaneous events."
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God's unique Son.
Art just an observation here, you seem to me to have gone from reasonable to a bit off the deep end in attitude in your posts...
Please explain this reincarnation/karma stuff. Who is keeping track of all these good/bad works?? Do good people get reincarnated in the States and the bad in Bangladesh?? | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/21/2006 5:06:29 PM | reincarnationist theory insists on a very fair, very precise "judgment",
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while reincarnationists insist ::God also insists on a true turning to Him. How could that be accomplished if "just one more chance " is always extended.
Good people still have to turn away from idols and turn to God, no less than the mafia guy.At the beginning of the day or at the end of the day, God is about bringing His people home.Most people on their death bed are not pleading forgineness and in the case of the one theif he was forgiven.
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/21/2006 5:15:07 PM |
In any case, this passage -- and the various possible interpretations of it -- once again illustrate the fact that, as the Christian reincarnationist Edgar Cayce said, "I can read reincarnation into the Bible and you can read it right back out again."
Yes it is true, and it could also be said, the same the other way around. I am, by no means knocking what you believe. I'm simply stating how i take things. I believe If reincarnation was taught in the bible. It would of been much more obvious. and I still stand on my belief. if it were so. Then there would be no need for the plan of salvation,which was so widely taught in scripures. and if there was no need for salvation then every thing that points to it in the bible is a lie, and if it's a lie then i might as well forget Christianity. It's just my opinion . | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/21/2006 6:06:48 PM | | Reincarnation has never made any sense to me. Lets take India for example, the Brahmins always get born into the Brahmin caste. The untouchables always get born into the untouchable class. This system breeds contempt for humans of lower castes. Where Headgar Case got his ideas on reincarnation from I don't know. But I do believe the Hindus started the myth, and Buddism got on the band wagon later.. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/21/2006 6:25:23 PM | The problem is that each person had a first incarnation. That means that each person then had perfect Karma since he had no previous life and had done nothing wrong. Therefore, if he had perfect Karma and didn't learn or do what he was supposed to in his first life, then what makes him think that after hundreds of incarnations with accumulated bad karma that he will be able to achieve the perfect state of union with the divine consciousness that reincarnation moves him toward? It doesn't make any sense.
On the contrary, it makes perfect sense. Did you learn everything there is to know about the Bible at your first Bible study? What makes you think that in a single short life -- especially if you were one who died in infancy or at a very young age -- you could possibly fulfill the command of Jesus, "be ye perfect"?
Check out the story of the "Prodigal Son". Think of it as the "Prodigal Soul", once living in harmony with its Father, wandering off to squander its inheritance, reduced to living in abject sin and "eating with the pigs" -- then, at last, the realization dawns that the true Home of the soul is with its Father and the erring soul finally "repents" and turns back. One can guess that on the way back home, the Prodigal Son might have run into a few distractions and been tempted to slide back into its old ways. Nevertheless, that soul has to continue on its path back towards its true Home -- following in the footsteps of Jesus -- if it is to be fully reinstated as a true son of God.
We are all prodigal souls. We must make our own choices. "Bad karma" may put us into a sty of our own choosing where we are forced to eat pig slop to survive. When we finally tire of living like pigs, we can choose to follow Jesus, obey His commandments, and become like Him.
There is no easy road to salvation. That's why St. Paul said "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling". Jesus never EVER said that He would do all the work for us. Nor did He say that His sacrifice eliminated the need for us to reject sin and embrace God's laws. Jesus said: "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come to fullfill the law and the prophets and not one iota, not one jot of the law shall pass until all these things are fulfilled." The often touted theory (and that's ALL it is, a pernicious, false theory promulgated by foolish men, NOT by Jesus or the Bible) that we can never escape the clutches of sin and therefore should just "cast our cares on Jesus", expecting Him to usher us into Heaven -- in whatever spiritual condition we happen to be in when we die -- with little or no effort really required on our part other than a single prayer accepting Him as our saviour -- is a disastrous misinterpretation of the Scriptures and a blatant violation of all reason and common sense.
I believe that Jesus is indeed our Saviour, the first soul that ever made it all the way back to God. Like all great leaders do -- and leaders are often called "saviours" -- he sacrificed Himself to open the Door -- to BECOME the Door -- that we all can and must pass through. He set the example for all humanity and established a pattern for us. Like all great leaders, He did what He expects us to do -- with His help. "The captain of our salvation", "the pioneer and perfecter of our faith" will not be satisfied -- nor will He be done with us -- until we have become like Him. Nor will God -- who has promised to search for His lost sheep for as long as it takes to find them -- cast any soul into a lake of fire until it is clear that such sheep will NEVER be found and that plight will be of their own choosing. How impatient IS God, the same God that is revealed in Jesus who said: "if your brother sins against you, forgive him not once, not seven times but seventy times" -- in other words, keep on forgiving him for as long as it takes?
Now, when I personally shuffle off this mortal coil, I fully expect that a judgment of this life that I am now living will take place. If I go in the state I'm in now -- not in a state of gross, rank sin but certainly well below the standards set by Jesus -- I expect that He would say to me something to this effect: "You knew better. Why didn't you live more according to My teachings? You made some progress in that last incarnation but you slipped in a lot of ways too. You're not ready to enter Heaven. Go back, pay more attention this time and get it right. I'll be there to guide you and transform you by My Spirit -- as I always have been. Go and sin no more, my son."
Maybe I'm really preaching to myself. Albert Schweitzer went to a jungle in Africa and built a hospital to care for natives ravaged by "white man's diseases". This brilliant man, a world class musician, a renowned scholar and theologian, a university dean who could have made the world his oyster and lived in comfort, finally became tired of arguing with fundamentalists who considered his beliefs about Jesus to be dangerous and heretical. He sacrificed the rest of his life to become a true follower of Jesus and to actually put His teachings about love, compassion and service to one's fellow man into practice. "I decided to make my life my argument," Schweitzer said.
And here I am, making my argument my life! Bad karma for me ... Maybe I should hang my head in shame. | |
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| Does reincarnation go against all Christian biblical beliefs?
Posted: 1/21/2006 6:29:01 PM | | Each of us live once and face the judgment. There are no second chances to come back. 2 Corinthians 5:8 tells us at death the believer immediately goes into the presence of the Lord to rest from his labors. Why try to perfect yourself through your own handiwork when the truth is, Christ did it all? . Christ died for our faults, our shortcomings, our sins. | |
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