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| Aztecs, Egypt, Greece, Rome, Russia, the US...a pattern?
Posted: 3/19/2007 9:00:55 PM | The only thing these 7 states that you mentioned have in common is the fact that they were empires, but their declines are all caused by different things.....
Aztecs - disease followed by ritualistic warfare - even after they learned how to fight the europeans, they were so sick with disease that they couldn't fight effectively (unlike the maya who practiced guerilla warfare)
Egypt - okay - there were three empires - old - environmental/pyrric victory against sea people, middle - invasion (hyksos), new - invasion (persian)
Greece - which I interpret as being the Delian League/Athenian empire - disease (pelop. war), and interstate squabling which led to invasion from the north (macedonia)
Western Rome - environmental degradation, slavery, poor distribution of wealth, christianity, use of federati - there were others - but the first three were the most important
Eastern Rome - invasian caused by staggering stupidity - Manzikert. Note: while Eastern Rome was plagued by emperors who were borderline morons or what I like to call "Bushes", they were also blessed with exceedingly gifted emperors at opportune times. Unfortunately, the last goof up happened at a time when another power was able to take advantage of it....
Russia - lost the cold war
US - won the cold war (again pyrric victory - like Russia - so many resources went into it that it gutted itself from the inside), also overextension without understanding
Britain - two factors - certainly WW 1 was the straw that broke its back (barely won against the Central powers, and even then so far deep in debt and lost so many men that it was never the same).
The other factor is the fact that it was the first country to industrialize, made lots of money, but never reinvested that capital in upgrading its machinery. The owners got greedy, and watched blissfully unawares as other countries used modern machinery to outproduce and out compete them (Germany and America). This greed also manifested itself in the poor lot that became the masses that worked in the factories who were so weak and diseased that most were ruled unfit for duty when WW 1 broke out! | |
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arri
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Joined: 10/5/2005
Msg: 53 | |
| Aztecs, Egypt, Greece, Rome, Russia, the US...a pattern?
Posted: 3/20/2007 8:31:57 AM | First of all, neither the Aztecs, nor Egypt and Greece belong on this list.
Egypt was a long enduring kingdom that has been a client state for some 2500 years. Starting with the Persians, then Seleucids, later Rome, the Caliphate, Seljuk, Ottoman, the Brits and now the Americans.
Greece was a combination of waring city states that spent more time beating on each other than work as untied people. They were conquered by the Macedonian Philippe, manged to beat the Persians under Alexander. Alexander had good PR. He died before he got to rule anyone and he didn't build an empire, rather conquered an empire that was already there. The Greek generals then managed to rule the Persian Empire as fragments as the seleucids for some 80 years until they were expelled by the Persians in the east and conquered by the Romans in the west.
Pattern ... no Pattern.
Talking about Rome and U.S., Now we have a pattern.
The U.S. history mirrors that of Rome very closely. Their rise as an empire, their political system, attitudes, the manifest destiny and so on are so similar that it is scary. And what caused the fall of Rome, seems to be repeating itself. | |
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| Aztecs, Egypt, Greece, Rome, Russia, the US...a pattern?
Posted: 3/20/2007 11:50:57 AM | Oh c'mon, not again! Philippe's name was Philippos (Philos and Ippoi), which is a Greek name and means in GREEK "friend of the horses". And Alexandros is a Greek name too. So was Olympias, mother of Alexandros. Macedonia was indeed a state of the states of Greece, which indeed spent much time fighting against each other, especially Sparta vs Athens! But the Persian threat united them. Athens led the Alliance cause in the naval battle Salamina showed that its naval power was more crucial to the Spartan Army power in defending Greece against the Persian threat. So I guess Ancient Greece was not like the USA or Rome, but more like the European Union and/or NATO!!! lol As per the Iliad, the Trojan War was another "offensive" war by the Greeks (who mostly fought defensive wars against non Greeks and did some fighting between them). But was it legend or reality? And was Troy in Asia Minor or in England (as a reseracher claims)? Was it fought for Helen or for trade access and routes? Or 'tin" (the Troy near Cambridge theory)?
Pop culture is a much more potent "infleunce" tool for a superpower today rather than military, economic/trade or capital or technology. US pop culture does that and it will outlast the US' other world power tools.
What pop culture did Rome export to the rest of the world of its times? Gladiators? Which cultural heritage is most relevant in the world today?
A real "power's" cultural heritage long outlasts its period of its own military or economic power! That is why Britain still is a power of sorts in the world today (music, films, education). | |
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arri
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Joined: 10/5/2005
Msg: 55 | |
| Aztecs, Egypt, Greece, Rome, Russia, the US...a pattern?
Posted: 3/20/2007 3:38:12 PM | Sorry Nick, I had a Greek girlfriend once and I know that the world centres around Greek culture. 
The point that was making was that only Rome should be on that list. The U.S. modeled itself on the Roman republic. The founding fathers borrowed a lot form the old Republic, right down to the architecture. They both have this love for white marble columns. Just look at Washington DC. Roman Architecture. Washington was built to intimidate the foreign dignitaries, Even the political system is based on Rome. The Senate, the 2 party system that go back to the origins of the United States. Just like the Plebeians and Patricians of Rome. They even manage their empire and tax client states the same way. Put garrisons, (Military Bases for US) and take tribute from client states, just like the U.S. 700 Billion annual trade deficit.
Funny thing is, history is repeating itself. | |
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| Aztecs, Egypt, Greece, Rome, Russia, the US...a pattern?
Posted: 3/20/2007 8:14:02 PM | Nick - I agree with much of what you said regarding the true influence of an empire is its cultural impact, but a few couple of points for accuracy....
a) Didn't we clear up the relationship between greeks and macedonians in an earlier post?
b) Macedonia technically aided the Persians in their conquest as they were a vassal state of Persia, but yes, they did secretly try to help the greeks
c) Troy was definitely real - but not like in the Illiad - but was a series of raids not a continuous seige. I believe it was Troy IV that was the basis for that war, and I also would agree with you that it was probably economical more than due to a woman
d) Rome's influence was massive - at least for the western half of the world. Just to name a few - concrete, roads, aquaducts, jurisprudence, military tactics and formation, hell - even the language that France, Spain, Italy, and Romania speak today is a derivative of latin....which in itself was used by scholars up until english surpassed it in the late 1800's. | |
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