| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/24/2005 10:08:25 AM | jessika said:
Do you think it is a cop out either by the drs or even us as parents?
I think that ADHD/ADD are real conditions.
I think that the incidence in the population is relatively low.
I think that the incidence in the population has changed very little over the years.
I that in times past the condition was not recognized and, therefore, not treated.
I think that in current times that it is grossly over-diagnosed, to the point of crisis potential.
I think that as part of being over diagnosed that many kids are drugged as a form of
behavior control, when just good, old fashioned discipline and structure would be more
than sufficient.
So, in today's time, I think that to a large extent both professionals and parents are engaging in a huge cop-out. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/24/2005 10:15:51 AM | There is a strong incidence of comorbitity with ADHD and Bipolar disorder. My son was diagnosed with BP 3 years ago and ADHD was mentioned but I would have none of it. In the last year it became a terrible problem for him and for our family. He is being discharged tonite from 3+ weeks in the hospital and part of the treatment was a drug for ADHD. He is a totally different kid. More confident, getting good marks (they have school in the program he's in) and generally living up to his potential (high IQ, pretty good parenting).
A teacher trying to diagnose a child with ADHD should raise your suspicions - of the teacher. I agree that ADHD is diagnosed at a high rate and that all cases probably aren't valid BUT when it is a valid diagnosis I can't imagine why you wouldn't treat it with diet, behavior modification AND medication. It's like telling a diabetic to manage without insulin. Mental illness and disorders of the brain are biochemical problems and wishing them away won't work, and is very unfair to the child that needs help. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/24/2005 11:51:51 AM |
stumbler said:
BUT when it is a valid diagnosis I can't imagine why you wouldn't treat it ...
Just to clarify, in case that comment comes from my post, *when* it is the correct diagnosis, I do think it should be treated. I just think that over diagnosis is rampant. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/24/2005 2:12:23 PM | | Well unfortunalty enough sometimes medications are ones only choice..when I had my oldest he was really hard to control..and everyone seemed to blame me..well finally towards the end of grade one I found a dr who didn't think it was me..he wasn't paying attention in school..he wasn't picking up math, reading and spelling..and now since they didn't dignose him till he was in the end of gr one he missed all the important learning skills in jk, sk and gr one..finally they put him on what u called the ZOMBIE drug and even tho he is in gr 5 and 2 grades behind in his work..he is still able to focus on it..he has adhd and oppositional deficit disorder..both with both of those its a huge challenge because he doesn't respect me at all..I do agree the meds bring him to a flat state and he looses his appetite..and I do hate that..but the thing is he is unmanagable without it..and I too have tried diet..even tried a chiropractor who says that may help..it didn't..i've tried parenting classes u name it..so I guess in some cases it is necessary to give the medication in the long run..and just wait out the few yrs till he grows out of it.. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/24/2005 6:56:53 PM | | I had a child as an adhd child - and this wasnt a cop out - restless nights etc - one of the best lifestyle diets that I got from the advice of a doctor that didnt believe in medication (Dr. Trethorpe from edmonton alberta) that a add child can reallly prove to be effective on is the candida diet - no white flours etc - any fresh veggie, any meat (mostly chicken and fish) - try to stay away from any food that is processed or has the color red to it, milk products also affect the childs learning - rice dream or goats milk is better for them. It is a really good idea to get the child checked for allergies and red blood cell to see how much junk is in their system (as in mcdonalds or anything that has additives to it) you can get some items like fish oil for their brain cells and some natural vitamins in the idea of gummy bears from the health food stores. best of luck to you - its hard to do at first and costly however the long term is most worth it. Ritalin is commonly known to be poor mans heroin and is also known for recking the parts of the memory later in life. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/24/2005 7:09:01 PM | The candida diet is good for everyone. What a great post.
Im on a similar diet myself. Cured my GERD, and my fat butt!
I now carry no extra weight. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/24/2005 7:36:46 PM | That is interesting input paradisequeen. I worked with autistic children and one family put their child on a special diet somewhat similar to what you are talking about. It was known to drastically diminish symptoms of the disorder in children. It doesn't surprise me to hear that diet modifications can also be beneficial to individuals with ADD/ADHD.
However, I do agree with what others on this thread have mentioned about meds.....What I think it REALLY comes down to is that each situation IS different and one needs to determine if medication is necessary, what medication is necessary, and how much medication should be taken in THEIR particular situation.
I think a holistic approach that involves a combination of behavioral modification/therapy, diet and medication can be extremely beneficial and produce maximum results. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/25/2005 12:35:45 AM | All who think that neurotransmitter imbalance is caused by diet should return to the local high school biology class for a refresher. Have you any idea how drop-dead easy it would be to spot this solution if it were real? Do you think that no one tracks endemic changes in epidemiology and would not notice a causal relationship between any product and disease patterns?
Listen, for all who believe that they've found a diet that somehow miraculously cured/alleviated symptoms of psychosis, good for you but just keep walking. Yes, diets have been found to help many diseases based on chemical imbalances in the body (gout, arthirtis, etc.) but these are well understook and are not based on shotgun, hokus-pokus theories. Don't present these strategies to others as tried-and-true science unless you can also post references detailing the research that establishes mode-of-action, epidemiology, or even the idiopathic statistics of occurence. Most of these miracle solutions vanish into thin air once researchers perform classical epidemiological investigations into the regimen to see if they really hold water.
More information:
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/candida.html
It is soooo easy to propose off-the-wall theories and even justify them with anecdotal/testimonial information and leave it at that. Maybe if these people were forced to take the proceeds from recommending these alternatives (books, fees) to proving that these programs are epidemiologically valid, we'd see fewer and fewer of these programs. Instead, these panaceas are pedalled to a public who believe MD or Ph.D. means the speaker must know what they're talking about which leaves real scientists to break the bad news later on after long hours of expensive research, usually on the backs fo taxpayers. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/25/2005 4:41:25 AM | Personally I believe ADD and ADHD are real diseases and in some cases medication is the only viable treatment, even if it is sometimes only to give the parents a respite. If the parents break under the strain, the outcome for the child is worse than the medication.
I do think however that many parents and doctors turn to a medical solution long before other more appropriate solutions are attempted.
Greg | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/25/2005 8:11:55 AM | | I didnt mean that Fiengold was good for everyone, but I gotta say from people I have talked to it has worked for them. All I am trying to say is try it first before going to meds. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/25/2005 1:10:00 PM | Like I said before, it is an individual thing......diet may not work for all depending on the root of the REAL problem ....and by the way Overit50, my graduate internship and the bulk of my training was in brain injury and substance abuse....not a doctor, but have LOTS of first hand experience and knowledge about the brain.
Also, I realize that Medication may not work for everyone either....although, lets not throw the baby out with the bath water...
I applaud the moms who did their homework and got second and maybe even third opinions before deciding to go ahead with ANY given treatment.....because what may have worked for one, doesn't necessarily work for EVERYONE.
And by the way Overit50, dietary changes have proven extremely beneficial in improving (NEVER DID I SAY CURING) many conditions/symptoms...including conditions stemming from the brain.....learned that froma neurosurgeon.....so argue that point with him.
AGAIN, I strongly think it is an INDIVIDUAL thing....but I know for sure ADHD/ADD are REAL conditions and my hopes are that the people who either suffer from either of them or have a loved one who does, get the best treatment and help for their particular circumstance.
Again, I applaud the people on here who have struggled with this and have done their all to find the best solution for their individual circumstance! | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/25/2005 1:59:06 PM | | Some doctors just give out the medications to the kids. But there truely are kids out there that need it and when it's properly diagnosed they are not zombies. It will help them. But when it comes down to the parents just not wanting to deal with kids who may be hyper from sugar or even natural sugar (fruits) then it's just a load of crap. My youngest can get very hyper and out of control if he has a lot of natural sugar...bananas, oranges. I just make sure he has them when he can be hyper ya know? I've seen a parent who had twin girls who were at the time 4 years old and both on medication, but at the sametime she's buying them candy bars. Let's take the time to look at diets and discipline. Not just jump into medication. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/25/2005 2:41:10 PM | I totally agree with you smpackage. I have seen the same. My friend that has the 13 year old he is very hyper but sometimes she will buy him energy drinks, or he will sneak when he is at friends houses and buy them. OMG he is like a little Demon child then.
We call 6 pm the witching hour for him because his meds are wearing off and he just gets really hateful and mean sometimes. I try not to be around to much after that time. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/25/2005 3:53:37 PM | Caringclownfish,
Reread what I wrote. I think you misunderstood. Nowhere have I said that diet is not to be explored in the treatment of any systemic disease. What I said is that it is not a supported treatment for the disease. A recent poster said that he tried a certain diet that works for everyone and that it cured his gastroenteritis/obesity so it shoul also cure ADHD and then states in his profile that beer is one of his favorite foods. This is magical thinking at its best.
We are pretty much on the same page but I find your thinking a little unclear. If you've studied public health administration, you would rethink posting the following:
it is an individual thing......diet may not work for all depending on the root of the REAL problem [/unquote] It's an individual thing. Isn't everything when it comes to biological systems? So, what do you personally use as an indicator of when to recommend that a patient needs a change in diet and when it's contrainidicated? (Now there's a new concept for pseudoscientific practitionrers, contraindication. Probably doesn't exist in their lexicon. Or at least until somebody dies.) Trial and error? Would you be comfortable with a psychiatrist who decided whether or not to prescribe anti-psychotics on that same basis? Or do you feel that it's OK to bandy about advice about diets and not worry about the results until the patient finally builds up enough confidence or despair to say that the prescriber's hallowed suggestion doesn't work? Because quacks are usually not practicing MDs, they are free to play around with patients' non-medicational behavior and get away with so much more than a practicing MD would. my graduate internship and the bulk of my training was in brain injury and substance abuse....not a doctor, but have LOTS of first hand experience and knowledge about the brain learned that froma neurosurgeon.....so argue that point with him Brain injury...substance abuse...neurosurgery. Do these have anything to do with idiopathic neurotransmitter imbalance treatment, epidemiology, risk assessment, psychiatry, drug safety/efficacy testing? NO. Thanks for your experience but you neglected to include your personal and your neurosurgeon friend's statistics such as how many people you've treated, how many of those you advised to change their diet, how many successes, how many failures, how many people didn't come back. I love success stories. One, two, twenty. But when the population is several million, these stories become statistically insignificant. My guess is that you didn't keep these records and, if you did, a careful review would not support your arguments. dietary changes have proven extremely beneficial in improving (NEVER DID I SAY CURING) many conditions/symptoms...including conditions stemming from the brain Now you've used my favorite word, "Proven". It's my favorite word because it means that you can post proof. That is, there are peer-reviewed double-blinded studies that prove that the reduction or elimination of specific substances from the diet of psychotic patients produces relief of a specific symptom(s). Please post. I posted a few earlier that directly contradict what you wrote but I could be wrong. NIH could be wrong. The American Psychicatric Association could be wrong. UVA Med School could be wrong. it's your turn to post these studies. That's what real science demands, fish, not happy stories. You and I are probably on the same page. I would, as most of the doctors I've met, use neuroleptics only as a last resort. First you try behavioral therapy (regimentation and discipline). Then you try secondary stimuli (environmental, DIETARY, psychological). Only when you eliminate what you can control do you go after what you can't control. And that would be to try to bring the neurotransmitters back into balance. If you can't tell, I don't like it when people spout nonsense that (1) irresponsibly raises false hopes among those afflicted and (2) don't realize/care about what they could be doing to these families or patients. How would you feel if upon reading your post, a parent who is in denial that their child has ADHD would start their child on the zillions of alternate diet therapies that can be found in quack publications and do so unsystematically? What if these same parents deceived themselves that the child was actually progressing acceptably because they were not using an unbiased, objective measure of the symptoms and duped themselves that the kid was OK? To all, find a good clinician who can guide you through the maze of alternatives for your child. First thing is to regulate the child's environment so that you know it's not abuse, inconsistency, or other stressors. Second is to try to eliminate possible contributors you can control (diet, lighting, activities, etc.) A responsible clinician would then and only then recommend using drugs to control the child's behavior. Don't believe that a diet will be the whole answer. Just like medication isn't the whole answer. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/25/2005 5:08:59 PM | | oh yes I forgot to add about how important discipline thanks for inputting that - not beating - but teaching the child how to sit for long periods of times as his body vibrates or teaching them how to cope with all the things from other kids such as calling them names etc. Those parents who experience this understand what our child goes through on a daily basis. Also lots of humor to keep us sane and advocacy for the child - is although draining it does pay off. If anyone here knows of a support group for parents of kids for add or adhd it would be helpful to post here. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/26/2005 8:41:47 AM | @OverIt50
Like any system, the human body can benefit or suffer from the input (ie: diet)
shit in = shit out (no pun intended)
Diet shouldn't be discounted as part of an overall treatment plan. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/26/2005 9:37:08 AM | Stumber,
Read what I wrote, not what you want to read. I think you and I are on the same side but you've decided to rely on only one leg of a many-legged stool. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/27/2005 11:29:28 AM | | Well , I have a daughter who is ADHD and she was placed on medication for it first RITALIN and yes as you say she was a zombie, I quickly had her doctor change her meds to a different medication that has alot of the medicinal affects that RITSLIN has that are benefical but does not turn her into a zombie and also on this med she only takes it when she needs help focussing and not any other time. my daughter is now 18 and going to red river in the spring she was diagnosed in grade 3. If your friend's kids as you say are in a zombie like state they are either over medicated or on the wrong medication tell your friend to ask his kid's doctor to go over the alternative drugs available and not just to settle for ritalin btw they are not zombies they are stoned or high. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/27/2005 3:00:39 PM |
Read what I wrote. I think it's more your approach than the content that is knocking the stool over.
Stumbler and clownfish,
If you can't communicate your thoughts, don't bother me. If you have something to say, say it. Don't keep us all guessing. Let us in on your wisdom. We're all dying to fing out what was wrong in what I wrote.
Stumbler: It's GIGO. That's what you were looking for.
Clownfish: Am I the first person who has not fallen for your "I'm the expert here" routine?
Be well. Write in complete sentences to express your thoughts lucidly or not at all. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/27/2005 3:03:59 PM | Mschickie,
You are right. If anyone is getting their kid treated by an MD who is not a licensed psychiatrist, change that immediately. You may also want to run the psychiatrist's name by the higher ups at your kid's school as they know who the goods ones are. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/27/2005 3:08:49 PM | Overit50 I wrote this thread to help people with the problems that they find with Drs, teachers and other people that to quickly want to say "the kid is adhd or add, here is some pills get over it!!" Not for you to want to fight with people in here. I was in hopes that this would be a support for some people not a **** fest like so many other forums are in here.
So please don't be so negative!  | |
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