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| | ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out? Page 5 of 34 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34) | Sorry, Jessika
Didn't mean to start a brawl. I was trying to pose a counter-argument to the many "no, not pills; here's some organic lettuce" crowd. Both approaches are ridiculous and people aught to know better but many don't.
I am a scientist, Jessika. I feel it is my responsibility to interject what I know that may help other people when the opportunity arises. Is that not what these threads are all about? If I started my own thread can I keep people who believe in ghosts, auras, ESP, alien abduction, therapeutic touch, homeopathy, and all the other unscientific/illogical nonsense off my thread? Why don't you, and whomever objects to what I wrote, quote where I am wrong, write down your arguments and post evidence like I did?
No more ad hominems, deal?
I'm not going away, especially as I am the only one here saying what I'm saying. Prove it wrong. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/27/2005 4:17:56 PM | Thanks Jessika, I was trying to be encouraging and supportive of others....just seems like overit50's pages of so called "interjections" are condescending and argumentative....
...I, too, thought the purpose of the thread was to encourage and build others up, not tear them down.
If we are on the same page like you said Overit50, then why argue????
I'm not sure you clearly read or even understood me or anyone else on here.....and then spent all that time squabbling about a point that isn't really related to what was originally asked.
Again, I commend those parents/individuals who are doing their homework and making an informed decision based on their individual needs and situation....whether that be medication, therapy, and .....yes...diet!!!!.......or any combination of those things.
ADD/ADHD is a real thing............and I commend those who struggle with it.....!!! | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/27/2005 5:08:06 PM | Well, the way I feel about this is YES add and adhd is a real thing. HOWEVER there is a lot of people, Parents, teachers and DRs. that don't look at the whole picture. They just say well her is a pill go take it and all will be right. They also need to look at diet and everything else as well. Enviroment for one, diet for another. If a child is upset and the parents or teachers are to busy or just don't give a shit then the child may act out in a way that will mimmic adhd or add. Also there is kids that are alergic to certain dyes and they can mimmic adhd or add (I was one of those children!!)
There is children that need to be on meds I agree whole hearted about that. But I have also seen children that don't need meds and if the parents and teachers and other adult role models would just look at the intire picture they would see that. I have also seen parents that hand there children candy as a reward and then wonder why is my child so hyper.
I believe everyone on here has done everything they could to help there children so please don't think that I am talking about anyone on here. If you didn't care you wouldn't have posted in the first place. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/27/2005 5:28:26 PM | Overit50.
Quackwatch.com and other sites like it are put up by Big Pharma to dispute natural cures. Big Pharma looses money if you dont take drugs. Naturally they want to disprove anything that would hurt drug sales. Why do you think 50% of the commercials on TV are for drugs? Its big money pal.
There are Natural cures for every ailment you could have.
Doctors are taught to do two things. Prescribe medicine, and cut off body parts. Doctors make tons of money from kickbacks and "favors" from the Pharma companys.
Big Pharma is the plauge of the 21st century.
Why is there no research proving that natural cures work? Because there is no money in it. Its all about money.
When you say your a scientist you loose all creditabilty with me. Science is what started all this unatural crap in the first place.
Scientist invented, Nuclear Bombs, Germ Warfare, thousands of chemicals that will never biodegrade. Now they have to invent diesease so there will be more reasons to invent new drugs to treat the dieseases they invent.
More money for research!
More reasons to make money.
Your just part of the machine pal!
Its always about the money! | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/27/2005 5:43:11 PM | Clownfish,
More ad hominem. Chill. Read what you wrote:
....and by the way Overit50, my graduate internship and the bulk of my training was in brain injury and substance abuse....not a doctor, but have LOTS of first hand experience and knowledge about the brain.
And by the way Overit50, dietary changes have proven extremely beneficial in improving (NEVER DID I SAY CURING) many conditions/symptoms...including conditions stemming from the brain.....learned that froma neurosurgeon.....so argue that point with him.
You wrote this because I posted that there is no possible way diet can treat a neurological imbalance. Zip. Nada. No way. I did not mention your name at all. I wasn't even thinking about you when I posted so what I wrote that ticked you off or that you thought needing rebuttal is beyond me. I'm not even going to apologize because, as you claim to have some expertise in this field, you should know that what I wrote is true.
But you would say "Aha! but dietary changes have had beneficial effects in some cases!" True enough, but that amelioration has more to do with domestic discipline and basic nutrition than the disease itself.
Are you one of those I did single out as believing that diet alone can have miraculous effects? Didn't think so. That's the crowd I was targeting. Was it because my post showed up right after yours that you thought I was targeting you? I wasn't targeting you and I have no control of when my posts appear. That's one of the shortcomings of message boards. Frankly, your posts have been so bland and banal that there is nothing to attack! So you applaud people. So you commend people. So you are not one of the ignorami who deny that ADD/ADHD/etc exists. Why would I quarrel with any of that?
Every day and every year, families of the afflicted and sometimes the afflicted themselves are victimized by con artists and, sometimes, the well-meaning into spending considerable amounts of their money in untried/untested/phony panaceas. I've seen it. You've seen it. I believe that, by offering a testimonial to switching to a sensible diet (most times this is all it takes) without counterbalancing with the admonition to take a wholistic approach to psychosis is irresponsible and you should not do it. You do people little service by trying to "uplift" them without also informing them.
Then what I did is maybe react too strongly to what you wrote. I did believe that, by posting your credentials and mentioning that you knew a neurosurgeon, you were attacking my credentials. Which, by the way, are better than yours plus a hundred neurosurgeons on this topic but we needn't get into that type of war here, right? I know this for a fact because you have still not countered my posted literature references with any of your own. And, a scientist would never post a central point that they got from someone else (especially one who isn't there) and tell the reader to take it up with them.
Clownfish, I'm a scientist. You claim to be one. Why are you so hypersensitive to the manner in which scientists communicate? Why did you think I was contradicting you? Frankly, I wish you had written something, anything that was worth rebutting.
So, there, that's the end of it. You and your friends can continue attacking me if you want. I don't care. I will continue posting and that's that. If you don't like my posts, quote where I'm wrong and rebut them with something other than your outrage. I am not always right and I will retract anything I can't back up with data. You? Your buddies? | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/27/2005 5:51:27 PM | Who is attacking you. I wanted this to be a friendly helpful thread, then you came around and you have turned it in to yet another negative thread. THANKS overit50. It is so sad that parents that are concerned about there children can't even go to something positive with out someone like you $hitting on it!!! There now I have said my peace.
OT: Love your kids get all the facts and look in to it before you put your child on a medication that isn't needed. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/27/2005 6:10:28 PM | Clownfish, this is the real genius I was reacting to but I'm too polite to point out the ignorant until they try to take me on.
Guitarman
What's the herbal remedy for your paranoia?
Big money? How much do purveyors of "food supplements" (vitamins, herbal treatments, anything you think is great) make every year? Lots and lots. And it's almost all profit. No reinvestment at all. The pharma companies tell you how much they make. Will your herbal hucksters? No.
OK, since there is an herbal cure for any disease, please post the herbal cure for emphysema, colitis, eczema, common cold (cure, not treatment). Then post proof that it is effective more than 75% of the time.
Since you are not an MD and you do not teach at a medical school, excuse me for not relying on your assessment of what goes on therein.
You are partially correct in why there is little research on what you think of as "natural cures". (If that is so, how did you become such an expert?) The reason is that the effect of known naturally occuring substances are already known. If they were curative, big pharma would be out of business. (Think about that, guitarman.) But you are ignorant of the fact tht every year millions are spent in trying to find natural substances that have even a mild effect on a disease. Often, these effects can be amplified by changing the chemical structure of these substances slightly but this is not as easy as it sounds. It takes a lot of reseach and fooling with any molecule, natural or synthetic, to produce the molecule(s) that are the most efficacious toward a disease with the least detrimental side-effects to humans. (Read up on Hansch Analysis, genius.)
And, frankly, I have no interest in having any credibility with you. Science is the root of all evil? Tell me what exactly you're using to post your idiocy to this group on. What makes your van go? How do you even know that those herbal treatments have any effect? Go drink water out of the river and see what happens to you. (No? Why not? What do you know and how did you learn it?) Then you can go to the emergency room and beg for one of the corrupt physicians to treat you with ill-gotten medicines.
People like you make me laugh, guitarman, so I'm glad you're around. What a great world we would have if you decided for the rest of us. There would be no need to worry about cancer because we'd all die by the age 30. We could all wonder when the next pandemic would come around to kill most of the people we know and not know how to prevent it.
Part of a system? I just try do do my part to improve the world. You? Never mind, just go back to sleep. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/27/2005 6:25:54 PM | Now I have to teach people how to read! Here goes but I'm not hopeful:
Who is attacking you.
Caringclownfish. She tried to rebut something I wrote that she misunderstood and mentioned my nic in her post. If you have trouble understanding what I just wrote, read it over but more slowly.
I wanted this to be a friendly helpful thread...
I tried. Do you want the participants to go away believing that lettuce will cure Johnny's ADHD? If so, start your own site and allow only simpletons to participate. I believe that some people may have been warned not to trust diet-only and med-only therapists. What you got out of it, god only knows.
There now I have said my peace.
Good. Can the rest of us talk now? It's "piece" by the way. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/27/2005 6:40:39 PM | : OverIt50
I must say I have listened to people with you type of personality alot over the years in dealing with my child. You guys seem to come across as to knowing the information however havent actually dealt with a child on the extreme levels I have seen on a daily basis. To be truthful, it really infuriates me to no end when I see or read postings such as yours. Im sure your a nice guy and all,however I would like to know what personal experience you have in dealing with a child who possess such qualities as Ive seen and have had to deal with. Instead of cutting up what others say. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/27/2005 6:58:26 PM | Paradisequeen,
If you want to get involved on a one-to-one basis, e-mail me. I am not seeking judgement from you and what you want to know is no one else's business. And, frankly, if reading anything makes you furious, you need help.
The professionals who treat my kid consider me a model parent so I don't really care what you think. I've really not had this problem with any other crowd I've been on message boards with so maybe I'm not the problem. I take care of my son just fine, thanks, and I must add that he doesn't get short-shrifted by any of his caregivers so my approach is fairly successful. I have a wonderful rapport with these professionals as well, thanks for asking. I've been asked to be a parents/children's advocate and I intend to do so when I have the time. If you don't think I'll be effective, you don't know me well enough.
And...I did not realize I was writing to children with ADHD or ADD. I thought I was dealing with adults on this board but I may have been mistaken. I wrote what I wrote and all I have gotten back is personal attacks. Not one syllable of rebuttal, only messages like yours that I am not who I should be.
Really, I care little. I'm considered an authority in my field by people who are also authorities in my field. I will continue to post. I don't suffer fools gladly. Yes, I'm considered a very nice guy by most and many people seek me out. I don't attract idiots and I don't plan to take it up now. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/27/2005 7:31:11 PM | | "sigh" It is really sad that people that where here being positive and helping one another has to listen to someone that is so negative as overit50. I wish all of you good luck with your children and the problems that they have with the add/or adhd. I really feel for you guys, and I wish all of you good luck. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/28/2005 4:41:42 PM | Jessika and all those who had positive/encouraging threads to share,
This thread wasn't in vain and in spite of at least one negative individual, has been encouraging.....I for one, have benefited from your threads, paradisequeen's thread and other individual's threads as well.
I am very glad you posted this thread and don't think for a minute that it was in vain.
As for you Overit50, I think you have a bit too much time on your hands and are running out of college reference books to copy info out of!!!!
And let me guess....you haven't found a date on here yet?????
One can only wonder why, Overit50???????
Sorry Jessika......I just was dying to say that to him!!! | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/28/2005 4:46:04 PM | Thanks, although I don't have a child with this I have to see it from my best friends children everyday and I see what she goes threw. I pray for her every night.
I am glad this thread has helped and I encourage you all to keep posting. The positive will out weigh the negative. I HOPE.  | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/28/2005 5:40:57 PM | Oh, clownfish, how petty you've gotten in your dotage! Your posting really crosses the line. It's underhanded and mean. But I hate to disappoint you as I have had a date. Earlier this month, as a matter of fact. That's all I'm going to tell you.
And, Jessika, just because you start a thread doesn't mean you own it. Figure it out. If you wanted a care-bear type thread, don't name it "ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?" Gee, who could have thunk it would arise in controversy?
Let me restate what I has posted on this thread. Maybe you guys will view it as a personal attack again. One can only wonder. Whatever, it will be my cross to bear!
ADD and ADHD are both real and not real. Like all psychological syndromes, these refer to a set of associated maladaptive behaviors found in certain groups of people exposed to the same environment. They are not real diseases in that there is no common pathogen/cause discovered for these syndromes. As the origin of these syndromes is still unknown, they are called "idiopathic". However, it is known that these syndromes are associated with an imbalance of neurotransmitters in the brain, mainly serotonin and norepineprhine.
Treatment of ADD and ADHD is complicated by the fact that the symptoms manifested are entirely behavioral. Therefore, treating the chemical imbalance in the brain is only part of the answer. Behavioral therapy is also needed to train the victim in how to cope with the stimuli that incite hyperactivity. Regulation of external stimuli and diet are necessary parts of the treatment process.
The increase in detection of these syndromes has led to the formation of a cottage industry of fraudulent health practitioners selling cures for these syndromes to the unwary. These panaceas range from special diets to untested "natural" drugs. If you feel that these treatments are a bogus way to make a buck or that parents/teachers just want to control unruly kids, read http://www.addconsults.com/articles/full.php3?id=1030
There we go. What I said in a nutshell. If you disagree, PLEASE quote me, post an intelligent observation and, if available, back up your opinion with references. If we stick to the issue, we can avoid interpersonal conflict.
No harm done and no grudges borne, at least on my side. I am passionate about this issue because my kids are involved. If you don't like me, it's not because of ADD or ADHD.
Thanks, All. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/28/2005 5:46:35 PM | So what medical book did you google that time?
I didn't want a CARE Bear thread thread as you put it, I wanted somewhere where people could talk about this and what they have discovered about add/adhd and there thoughts about it. I never said I owned it. Matter of fact I hadn't posted in some time. Just let it take a life of it's own, and it did.
What I didn't want was a lot of fighting and crap going on like a lot of the other threads have. But with your negative attitude you have turned it in to that.
I think that add/adhd is real. I won't say it isn't but I think that there is underlying things to it too, and other things mirror it. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/28/2005 6:05:38 PM | Over50...
Do you have ADD or ADHD? Do you have a child with ADD or ADHD? My guess is no. It's really easy to sit there and quote medical books when you don't have to live with it day in and day out. Unless you have personally delt with these disorders, you don't really "know" what they really are. It's easy to quote books, but they are not always correct.
ADD and ADHD are VERY real. I live with it each and every day. Some of these others LIVE with it each and every day, their children may have it, or they themselves have it.
Next your going to be telling me that PTSD isn't real either.
To everyone else who deals with it, keep strong! You are doing the best of your abilities, and don't ever let anyone make you doubt yourself! | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/28/2005 6:20:52 PM | I am hoping that there are some intelligent people who are tracking this thread. Let's hear from you. People who can read with comprehension, that is.
I guess I should be flattered. Everything I post is original. If the two jerks who just posted think it's plagiarized, they can copy and paste the text into google with their fat little fingers, hit search and find out if it is. Real easy, but you have to have a brain to think of it. Sorry they don't qualify. Let me give you some incentive, girls, if it is plagiarized, I'm in real trouble. Contact the publisher and they'll sue my @55 off. Of course, you'll find it isn't plagiarized. i would wait for an apology but that takes too much class.
mpmommy. Read what I wrote. I have two sons with ADHD so get off your high horse. If you read well, you will notice that I said that the condition is real but it's not a "real" disease. It's a psychological syndrome. Do you own a dictionary? Geez!
Yes, there are people on POF who can think effectively and read and write. If you can't, it's not my fault. Post intelligent comments or leave us humans alone.
There, I've said my "peace". | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/28/2005 6:29:11 PM | A link talking about what it is like from the viewpoint of someone who has ADD/ADHD/
http://articles.health.msn.com/id/100110923
Make it a Great Day, Hug your Kids!
Kevin | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/28/2005 6:42:09 PM | | over5o there is no need to be so rude!!!! Just quit while you are a head please. Just stop it. This is going no where!!! You like to quote books while others want to talk about real life problems with there kids and there situations. Just please stop it. You are not making anyone feel better by assumeing they are idiots. Let it be you have quoted your books over and over again we get it. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/28/2005 7:05:36 PM | jessika..
I just wanted to thank you for starting this thread, it helps others to know that they aren't the only one's out there dealing with this. Now as parents we have found a group where we can discuss this, without feeling "inferior". We are all here with something in common. A child with ADHD or ADD..
Overit..
I am not willing to stoop to your level and argue over this. Yes you do have some valid points, but you are expressing them in the wrong ways. Instead of being scientific about it, approach it as a human put it "laymans" terms. Many of us are not as "well-read" as you are. And many of us are more "well-read" then you are willing to believe. I am truely sorry but I am going to believe what the NIMH puts out from their studies, and my doctor over you. Someone who says that they are a scientist, but yet has to say what they study for sciene. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/28/2005 7:13:32 PM | Great link. The ending reminded me of one of the battles I had with my mother-in-law (ex, thank god!). She kept on yelling at me for letting my kids drink caffeinated drinks near bedtime. It was a sure sign they were getting tired and needed something to calm their brains down. The MIL could never grasp that caffeine, in the case of the ADHD-afflicted, can help calm them down.
Another great thing about the article is that it stresses that states of mind are variable in all of us. It's like they slide back and forth along a Gaussian curve and we are all depressed or have ADHD or are insomniac, etc, at differing points in our lives. We only diagnose people with psychological syndromes if they spend most of their time in those regions.
It's a fascinating subject. Of all the organs, we know the least about the brain. Maybe someday we'll lick this thing.
Thanks. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/28/2005 7:28:46 PM | mpmommy
I'm sorry if I overreacted but NOBODY accuses me of plagiarism and gets a smile. I make no apologies for my style of writing because that's what I do when I convey information. Also, you'll find that I am not at all disagreeing with your doctor or NIMH. If you feel I am, post an NIMH study you feel I've contradicted so we can look at it together.
I know for a fact that most of the people reading this thread are well read and educated. How? If you look at the view count, you'll see that a lot more people than the three I've had trouble with are reading this thread. They haven't sent me any nasty messages so I assume they understand what I've written even though they haven't posted. They may disagree with it but they don't feel that such disagreement warrants personal attacks.
Don't get fixated on my writing that ADHD is not a "real disease". What I mean by that is that there is no identified cause so it can't be pigeonholed into classical disease profiles likea cold, the flu, AIDS, sprue, etc. It is a very real condition but, in the sense that we cannot identify a cause, it's not classically a disease. You mentioned PTSD earlier which also has no single identified cause YET. As such, it can be regarded as a condition but not a real disease. Why? Because science has a huge gap in its knowledge of and diagnosis of malfunctions of the brain.
If you want to discuss this type of thing in a more informal fashion, contact me privately. When I'm dealing with an individual I can let my hair down and write less formally because I feel I won't be attacked for sloppy writing. (That's the kind of forum I'm used to and it's going to be difficult to break the habit, I'm afraid.)
Anyway, sorry if I caused you any travail. I don't mean to make anyone feel inferior. Why would my style of writing make you feel like that anyway? It's only words. | |
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| ADHD and ADD the real thing or a cop out?
Posted: 11/28/2005 7:42:46 PM | Overit..
First, I didn't accuse you of plagerism. I can understand why this would make one upset. But please re-read your posts. They read as if they come straight out of a medical book. Impersonal, and unfeeling.
I have not become "fixated" on your writing that "ADHD is not a "real disease"". In fact I think I said that you have had very valid points, and agreed with you.
Sometimes a persons style of writing reflects them as a person. We already know by your own admission that you are a scientist. While many of us are not. Sometimes one's profession "leaks" out when least expected, here is an example: I am a soldier, now if I started to speak as I do at work. No one would understand me but those who are soldiers as well. Many times at work I can complete the majority of a conversation in acroymns. I may not do it intentionally, and many times I will speak as a soldier at home. I know when I do this by the confused look on my families face, or my daughter will say "Mommy your talking Army again."
Because of that some may feel inferior, it may not be your intention, but it could happen. Yes they are only words, but sometimes words cut deeper than one anticipated. | |
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