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| | God or JesusPage 2 of 8 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8) | JOHN 10:30-33 I and {my} Father are one.
JOHN 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
JOHN 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am {he}, ye shall die in your sins. | |
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funn1
| | Joined: 1/8/2005
Msg: 27 | |
| God or Jesus
Posted: 11/16/2005 9:08:42 AM | And for the ones who diddnt get that John 8:58 Before abraham was I am and then they wanted to stone him . Do you remember in the OT who shall I say sent me and God said I am sent you. Theres your text and there are more But I got to go to work.
Thanx guys for the nice words. | |
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| God or Jesus
Posted: 11/16/2005 9:14:17 AM | grplaman
JOHN 10:30-33 I and {my} Father are one.
That could be interpreted as "I and father are one in purpose". He even rejects the remtest idea of his being called God.
And he said unto him, ‘Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.’ "
[The Bible, Mathew 19:16-17]
To me it looks like he said that the path to salvation was through keeping the commandments. I don't see any part about dying for sins in this verse. | |
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| God or Jesus
Posted: 11/16/2005 9:48:36 AM | I personally don't care what Pagan faiths believed as it is irrelevant to the discussion at hand on what the Christian faith believes.
Trewq writes:
The doctrine of the Logos and the Trinity received their shape from Greek Fathers,
So did all of the other Christian doctines. The Greek Church is the first Christian Church, the New Testament is written in Greek, the earliest copy in existance of the Old Testament is written in Greek, several of the Apostles were Greek, and although not His first language it is believed that Jesus also spoke Greek.
"But now in Christ Jesus, you that used to be so far apart from us have been brought very close, by the blood of Christ. For He is peace between us, and has made the two into one and broken down the barrier which used to keep them apart, actually destroying in His own person the hostility caused by the rules and decrees of the Law. This was to create one single man in Himself out of the two of them and by restoring peace through the Cross, to unite them both in a single body and reconcile them with God. In His own person He killed the hostility... Through Him, both of us have in one Spirit our way to come to the Father" (Ephes. 2:13-14).
"Therefore, since Jesus was delivered to you as Christ and Lord, live your lives in union with Him. Be rooted in Him; be built in Him; be consolidated in the faith you were taught; let your hearts overflow with thankfulness." (Col. 2: 6-8).
The sole source and cause and principle of the Trinitarian unity is the Father Himself...
"One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Ephes. 4:6)
However the Bible is not the only teaching of Christianity, but simply a part of the whole. It is the written word yes, but we are also to accept the unwritten traditions of the Church...
"Brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word or our epistle" (2 Thessal. 2:15).
The Bible was written by the Church and is meant to be interpreted by the Church, since the undivided first Church, acting on the will of God, accepted the Trinity which has been passed down to us through tradition I accept it and believe it with all my heart, for I feel to do otherwise would be to deny God's will. | |
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| God [i]is[/i] Jesus
Posted: 11/16/2005 10:09:22 AM | Consider the eleven disiples who stayed in the boat when Peter got out and walked to Jesus. This is the means to act, overcome our rational thinking and over come choosing saftey.
We easily succumb to fear's potency when we attempt to endure trouble in our own strength. We were not created to live in such a way. God designed us to function best when we allow Jesus Christ's divine power to supplant our weakness. As he stood on the surface of the Sea of Galilee, Peter looked around at the fierce wind and remembered that no human can walk on water. His own strength was inadequate to keep him afloat, and he quickly sank. Jesus' greater power was sufficient to lift Peter from the sea and carry them both safley to the boat.
Apprehension can paralyze the believer and consequently freeze the Lord's plan. But responding with faith to God's direction unleashes divine power and sets His work into motion. The moment that we step out of the boat and move away from the familiar boundraies of our limited strength, we walk with Jesus as our Saviour by faith.
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| God or Jesus
Posted: 11/16/2005 11:38:42 AM | The confusion is because early Christians/Greeks did not have a complete understanding of Hebrew. Elohim, found 2570 times, is the Hebrew common name for Yahweh, it is a Plural Term meaning "Mighty ones". What I think the Greeks (being Pagans) failed to understand is that, "The Hebrews pluralized nouns to express greatness or majesty". I think the whole trinity thing is an attempt to cover up the problems in translations.
We should also note that "elohim" in the plural setting means "mighty ones" -- not persons. Thus the argument that its plural usage means a Trinity would tend to mean that there are three mighty ones (gods), not three persons. Allow that to sink in for a minute.
Additionally, if "elohim" means more than one person, then in Psalm 45:6,7 we would have one "Trinity of persons" anointing another "Trinity of persons". In other words, from the Trinitarian perspective, a Trinity anointing another Trinity. Nonsense.
Thy throne, O Elohim, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore Elohim, thy Elohim, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. [Psalms 45:6,7]
The majority of Christians, when asked to explain this fundamental doctrine of their faith, can offer nothing more than "I believe it because I was told to do so." It is explained away as "mystery" -yet the Bible says in 1 Corinthians 14:33 that "... God is not the author of confusion ..."
But because the "Church" is infallable, they could never admit to making a mistake, hence everyone's confusion. | |
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funn1
| | Joined: 1/8/2005
Msg: 32 | |
| God or Jesus
Posted: 11/16/2005 12:22:33 PM | | You know why there is confusion? thats easy the devil. keep people off topic. you see He dosnt want people to follow christ and he wants people to think jesus was just a man. If he is not God then he cant save man. | |
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| God or Jesus
Posted: 11/16/2005 12:29:26 PM | | So you're saying the Trinity was created by Satan to Confuse and distract? | |
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| God or Jesus
Posted: 11/16/2005 1:24:22 PM | Speaking of confusion and off topic, many of the answers to my thread have been a little off kilter, although their intentions have been an honest attempt at the answer.
Upon his baptism, God spoke "This is my Son, in whom I am well pleased".
Even in Jesus' worst hours, he never alluded to the idea that he was God. Follow the Passion:
In the garden he prayed "to" God to "let this cup pass, if possible"....
He angered the Sanhedrin because he acknowledged their question "Are you the Son of God?"
not are you God?
On the cross he spoke "Eli, Eli, lema sabacthani"- "My God, my God, why hast thou foresaken me?"
I reiterate, do not construe this as I am against Christaians or Jesus, nor is this a riddle.
So I ask again, if Jesus acknowledged praying to God is the proper method, both through words and actions, why has Christiandom all but forgotten God and placed Jesus as the center of worship? | |
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| God or Jesus
Posted: 11/16/2005 1:30:08 PM | So many people scratch their heads regarding the trinity. While the term Trinity isn't used in Scripture, the truth of a three-part Godhead is biblical. Our God consists of three parts, God the father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit. Each is characterized by the same attributes- They are all eternal, omniscient, omnipotent,omnipresent and immutable. However each one has a unique function.
The father is our creator, who judged each aspect of creation to be "good". In His hands rests control of the universe and every aspect of our life as Christians. The father oversees circumstances and events so that each situation can be used for our good. Romans 8.28
The Son is our Savior. Jesus Christ took on flesh and blood and became fully man-while simultaneously remaining fully God- and lived among men. He came to earth for the express purpose of dying on the cross, thereby paying our sin-debt with a perfect sacrifice acceptable to a Holy Father. Today, the Son sits at the right hand side and intercedes for us.
The Holy Spirit is our helper, who resides within every believer, starting at the moment of salvation. From the Spirit, we receive our Spiritual gifts and the power to do the work the father calls us to do.
We can be content with what Scripture tells us. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit's love for us and desire only the best for followers of Jesus.
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funn1
| | Joined: 1/8/2005
Msg: 36 | |
| God or Jesus
Posted: 11/16/2005 1:31:01 PM | | No not at all trewq, but he does like it when people fight about it. anything to take away from Jesus is what I was getting at. | |
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| God or Jesus
Posted: 11/16/2005 1:32:57 PM |
What I think the Greeks (being Pagans) failed to understand is that, "The Hebrews pluralized nouns to express greatness or majesty". I think the whole trinity thing is an attempt to cover up the problems in translations.
Wow so, let me try to repeat this back so I fully understand your meaning. It seems to me that you are saying that none of the 72 Jewish scholars who wrote the Septuagint understood how to translate in that ONE sentence, but they figured it out for the rest of the book? And you are also saying that the scholars who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls, in Aramaic, also did not understand what was intended? That's an awful lot of people you think must have erred, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
We should also note that "elohim" in the plural setting means "mighty ones" -- not persons. Thus the argument that its plural usage means a Trinity would tend to mean that there are three mighty ones (gods), not three persons. Allow that to sink in for a minute.
If the Septuagint had said 'elohim', this argument might have some validity...however it does not. It clearly says Theos (God). The Greek Septuagint is the oldest version of the Old Testament in existance and was proven (by the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls) to be more accurate than the later Hebrew translations in existance today. | |
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| God or Jesus
Posted: 11/16/2005 1:54:18 PM | PROPHETICAL EVIDENCE
The Greek of the Hebrew word Messiah or Mashiach (meaning the Anointed) is "Christos" and is transliterated to English as Christ. The Greek of the Hebrew word Yahshuah {or Iahésuah} is "Iesous" and was originally translated Iesu to the Latin and then to divers languages {meaning "He is the salvation".} Only later when divers languages adapted the letter "J" was it translated Jesus. The poetic name of God is IAH {uttered like in alleluYA meaning "you all praise the Everlasting Lord."} mentioned in the Psalms, the writings and prophets. Salvation or to save in Hebrew is SHUA, as found according to the Torah {That is the first five books of Moses} in the name Iosua that was first translated from Hebrew to English by William Tyndale. Also found in the name Iheshua in the books of Esdras {or Ezra & Nehemiah}.
Thus there are many transliterated derivatives of the Hebrew name like "Iesous, Iesu, Jesus" etc.. For in translating one language to another, there will be a unique way of expression, for ensample:
1.) In English the name that sounds like Yeshua is even used today in Israel; and it's interesting of the name to start with YES bearing to mind Second Corinthians 1:19 that "in him it was Yes:"
2.) In Portuguese we could pronounce the name as Iahésuah since there is no letter "Y" used in the modern Portuguese alphabet. And it is proper to have "és" that in Portuguese means "you are", like God said His name "to be" in Exodus 3:14.
{It is interesting that the uttering of "Yesua" almost sounds like "yes you are"; and also when we sneeze, it does sound like the abbreviated name Y'shu; that usually afterwards somebody will consciously say "God bless you" or in Portuguese "saúde" meaning "health to you"; And truly he is the Christ our health.}
For edification sake according to the Scriptures, the inspiration is to just receive the name in it's simple Hebraic meaning that "He shall save his people from their sins". (Matthew 1:21)
"To him giveth all the prophets witness, that thorow his name shall receive remission of sins all that believe in him." Acts 10:43
Thanking God again | |
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funn1
| | Joined: 1/8/2005
Msg: 39 | |
| God or Jesus
Posted: 11/16/2005 1:57:11 PM | | You know enviroconscious, To many people want to change the bible to fit there life, but few will change there life to fit the bible. But that is OK God would have done all he did, gone through all the pain if it saved just one of his people. As christines we need to take the good news of Jesus to all who have ears, and they can ask themselfs do I belive this or not and live with the road they choose. God will speek to ppl manny times through there lives. He will knock but we have to open the door. | |
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funn1
| | Joined: 1/8/2005
Msg: 40 | |
| God or Jesus
Posted: 11/16/2005 2:54:36 PM | You know we Need God the father God the son and God the holy spirit. They all serve as different parts of something we need very bad.
Could it be thats why the angels sing holy,holy,holy? One holy for the father one for the son and one for the spirit. | |
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| God or Jesus
Posted: 11/16/2005 2:57:03 PM |
The Greek of the Hebrew word Messiah or Mashiach (meaning the Anointed) is "Christos" and is transliterated to English as Christ. The Greek of the Hebrew word Yahshuah {or Iahésuah} is "Iesous" and was originally translated Iesu to the Latin and then to divers languages {meaning "He is the salvation".} Only later when divers languages adapted the letter "J" was it translated Jesus.
True, True and True. Christos means "the anointed one". The Greek alphabet does not have a "J", but Iesous is pronounced "h-ee-sous" (soft h...actually a cross between a yee and a hee...as what we use in the word he), easily recognized as Jesus.
Just a bit of trivia for you...the Greek 's' when used at the end of a word looks somewhat like our 'c' with a tail. So you will see IC XC on many Orthodox items meaning "Iesous Xristos"...this is also where we get the abreviation of X-mas for Christmas. | |
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| God or Jesus
Posted: 11/16/2005 6:08:04 PM | I understand what you wrote about the New Covenant, but as you said, he was SENT by God.
This in no way means that he was to replace God, but only to fullfill what was written.
But the Christian churches, in my opinion, have replaced God with Jesus. The whole emphasis
of their services and preachings have Jesus as the center. Very little is ever mentioned about God. This emphasis gives the implication that Jesus is more important than God, so we should worship him and pray to him instead. He is the salvation, not God. | |
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| God or Jesus
Posted: 11/16/2005 8:42:34 PM |
But the Christian churches, in my opinion, have replaced God with Jesus. The whole emphasis
of their services and preachings have Jesus as the center. Very little is ever mentioned about God.
Jesus and God are One and the same this is taught both in the Bible and by the ancient Church. My faith worships exactly the same as it did 2000 years ago when it was founded, with no change or replacement. If you wish to worship as they did before Jesus you might wish to perhaps look into Orthodox Judaism. | |
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| God or Jesus
Posted: 11/16/2005 8:43:56 PM |
You know enviroconscious, To many people want to change the bible to fit there life, but few will change there life to fit the bible. But that is OK God would have done all he did, gone through all the pain if it saved just one of his people.
Very true, Funn...and the Bible is not easy to follow at first, but the more you practice it the easier it becomes. | |
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| God or Jesus
Posted: 11/17/2005 8:57:02 AM |
Jesus and God are One and the same this is taught both in the Bible and by the ancient Church. My faith worships exactly the same as it did 2000 years ago when it was founded, with no change or replacement.
That is indeed taught in the Bible. However, it also teaches that Christians are One with Christ. Are Christians also God? I brought up the quote where Jesus says that only the Father knows when the end will be. If Jesus is God he should know as well. It was then said that Jesus had to give up some of his divinity and therefore he didn't know. This contradicts the Trinity doctrine (as formulated by St. Athanasius; before this there were varying interpretations) which says that Jesus was fully God and fully man. However, there's a second problem with this verse. The Holy Spirit is also God, but Jesus said that only the Father knows when the end will be. So how come the Holy Spirit doesn't know?
The only verse in the entire Bible that supports the Trinity is John 1:1, and even there there is no mention of the Holy Spirit. At best it actually supports a Duinity. | |
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| God or Jesus
Posted: 11/17/2005 9:51:38 AM | I am suggesting that the confusion occurred during the creation of the Septuagint. In the Hebrew text the name Elohim is found 2570 times; Eloah, 57 times; El, 226 times (Elim, 9 times). I am not questioning the meaning of the Greek words used. I am questioning if they chose the best word.
Moses is also called "elohim". (Exodus 4:16; 7:1 -- The KJV adds the words "instead of" before "God" in Exodus 4:16, which words do not appear in the Hebrew.) The scriptures concerning Moses indicate that elohim, although plural, is applied to the singular person, Moses. Is Moses a "Trinity" as well? Moses is not more than one person, so why the plural usage here? It is plural used in a singular setting to denote supremacy (plural intensive), that is, to denote the supremacy of the power given to Moses by YHWH over the power of Pharaoh.
If we really want to understand the bible then we need to read it in it's oringinal, Hebrew. | |
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funn1
| | Joined: 1/8/2005
Msg: 47 | |
| God or Jesus
Posted: 11/17/2005 11:50:28 AM | | The bible talk about The father the son and the spirit in very different ways and by name. There is no translation problem when the bible says The Father, Jesus and the holy spirit who is to come when Jesus left. The Father- Ancient of Days Jesus-The christ The Holy spirit- The comforter. The bible teaches that all three are one. | |
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| God or Jesus
Posted: 11/17/2005 12:08:03 PM |
The bible teaches that all three are one.
It does? Where? All I know of is a quote in John that talks of the father and son being the same, but no mention of the Holy spirit. | |
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funn1
| | Joined: 1/8/2005
Msg: 49 | |
| God or Jesus
Posted: 11/17/2005 12:24:55 PM | | OK, look at matt 1:18,21 and luke 1:35 and luke 3:22. | |
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| God or Jesus
Posted: 11/17/2005 12:32:59 PM |
If we really want to understand the bible then we need to read it in it's oringinal, Hebrew.
No one has a copy of the original Hebrew, and the Hebrew copies that we DO have were proven to be less accurate than the Greek Septuagint by the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Thus the most accurate complete copy in existance today is the Greek Septuagint, which is far older than any Hebrew text you might have found. So you have no way of knowing what words they were translating. I have a feeling that out of 72 Jewish scholars at least 1 of them would have known the most accurate Greek translation. | |
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