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| do any girls actually want nice guys?
Posted: 12/29/2008 6:41:39 PM | I would say that it's part of human nature to make oneself look good. When it comes to dating, especially, there is a tendency to accentuate the positive and avoid the negative. The truth is many women who say they want a nice guy actually do believe they want a nice guy. However, experience tells us things don't always work out that way. The truth is most guys just don't excite most women plain and simple. The backlash then is that guys think they have to start acting like jerks to attract women. That doesn't work out either more times than not. However, the so called bad boy(who is not necessarily a jerk but has more masculine and alpha male qualities than your average nice guy)does do a heck of a lot better than men who buy flowers, pay for dates, run errands and otherwise just do whatever she wants them to. In other words he plays into her reality whereas the badboy does not. THe thing is no women is going to admit she wants a "badboy." or especially a "jerk." People want to make themselves look good and one way women save face is by giving the impression he has to be nice for her to be interested in them.
Because of this discrepancy most women are in the dark not so much about what they really want but instead about what kind of guy they actually fall for. This whole nice guy thing pretty much proves that. The nice guy hides his sexuality, pays for the first date(without hardly knowing her) and as a result just doesn't intrique her or create any mystery or tenstion. He basically just gives his game away. The bad boy has game because he doesn't give it away and he is a challenge. The women never know where she stands with him. Women like the chase but the nice guy is usually just too much of an easy "kill." That pretty much sums it up and I hope this helps. This is ultimately my opinion but I would appreciate no arguments about this from the ladies or men on here as I have done tons of research on this topic and can back it up as if it was a thesis. :) | |
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| do any girls actually want nice guys?
Posted: 12/30/2008 8:48:24 AM | Sure they do, but there is a shortage of sweet loving caring guys who are members of outlaw biker gangs so there are quite a few of them still looking  | |
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| do any girls actually want nice guys?
Posted: 12/30/2008 1:26:24 PM | | I do and still will. That won't ever change... I don't have time nor the emotions to be chasing the bad boys... Life is too short for that... I will love and respect only to those who earn my love and friendship. | |
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| do any girls actually want nice guys?
Posted: 1/1/2009 2:54:06 PM | | What you stated there is exactly why it won't work out with you and a so called nice guy. You want someone who will bend to your will and not the other way around. He has to earn your love and friendship and not the other way around. Any guy who has to do that is going to be boring to you and not excite you because there is no chase there is no excitement. You have him right where you want him. That guy you describe must be very good looking because there is no other way you could be interested in him. Look at all the rock stars, celebrities and other men that have high social status. These men don't chase after women because they don't need to. I'm not saying a woman has to chase a man but I am saying there has to be some kind of push and pull involved. I think women whether they want to admit it or not want a man who has some kind of mysterious element to him but also a powerful man who doesn't give himself a way. I think if anything it is the woman who has to earn the trust and respect of the man. If not then the woman will lose interest in him pretty quickly. This is part of the reason why women go for bad boys. If nothing else at least they aren't boring. No only that but they don't give away their power as this woman suggested the man do to win her over. | |
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| do any girls actually want nice guys?
Posted: 1/1/2009 3:38:57 PM | Mikej413, great way you explain it -- I wholeheartedly agree.
There is a small minority of women who DO like the standard nice guy, but it is a very small minority, and not designated toward one specific social group... "Nice Guys" should not -ever- assume a girl is one of these (1% under 30; less than 10% under 50).
I think Mr. Nice Guy ends up making serious mistakes:
1. They assume what a woman says, with genuine emotion, is what they truly end up wanting
2. They take "nice guy" to mean a guy who runs errands for them and caters to them -- ie constantly reaching out to please them. They think that's romantic -- especially when a girl says she wants that. Women don't truly want that in a guy -- many want a guy who CAN do that (when the time is right). Nice guys instead try to be an emotional & complimentary sugar daddy, and possibly creeping into financial sugar daddy territory, too.
3. When a woman says "nice guy" they just mean "not a complete overbearing a$$hole". Mr. Nice Guy doesn't understand the huge difference between that and trying to always please them.
4. They may follow advice of their mothers or other older, married women. BAD BAD thing to do.
5. They think that "This is the way I am", and they continue to do their thing, not understanding that in the end, you AREN'T truly pleasing the woman (besides her feeling wanted at the cost of her feeling solidly attracted to you). | |
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| do any girls actually want nice guys?
Posted: 1/1/2009 4:27:13 PM | | I'm not a girl, but have encountered this too. It's important to be nice, but also know what you want, and take it as soon as a romantic situation prevails where it's being offered (nicely of course LOL). If you want sex, compliment her, stroke her hair and try to move in for a kiss. She'll either receive it or reject it. If you just sit there, she won't know you're interested and everything will fizzle out. Sounds like you don't know what you want from a girl (or woman). | |
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| do any girls actually want nice guys?
Posted: 1/2/2009 11:01:37 PM | I'm a nice guy, and I've never wined and dined someone to get any "action". I suppose a lot of guys do that, but not all of us want anything in return for being nice.
I had a great job years ago, and was doing wonderfully being single, and had the most opportunities to date during that time. The problem was when I was doing so good I didn't want anybody, wouldn't date anybody. I was a better man during that time, but I figured that was all the women wanted. I want somebody that'll want me no matter how I'm doing, because those are the ones that would have the kind of character needed for a life-long commitment. After all, nobodys life is always great and perfect, we all have our ups and downs, whether it be financially, emotionally, or even physically. And if someone is with me only because I'm doing good in life, then where will they be when I'm not doing so good? | |
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| do any girls actually want nice guys?
Posted: 1/3/2009 11:43:01 AM | You know what? Women do want Nice Men, but they will positively reject Mr. Nice Guys.
There is a Night-&-Day difference between a Nice Man and the proverbial 'Nice Guy'. The Nice Man is nice because that's how he is. He is nice to everyone he meets in his life, he is the helpful neighbor, the loyal friend and the trusted confidant. Most of all, he doesn't care if you appreciate his niceness or not. He knows in his heart what is right and what is wrong, and he follows those convictions and will stand up to anyone or anything that challenges his moral belief.
The proverbial Nice Guy though, is quite different. For starter, he has excessive insecurities and it shows. He thinks he is too short, too fat, too this and too that, and he tries hard to hide his insecurities. Unfortunately, his efforts often end up drawing attentions to them instead. Then, when Mr. Nice Guy actually meets a woman who express interest in him, he makes sure he kills any chance by catering his everything to her presence. The woman instinctively sees through this and eventually grows resentful of Mr. Nice Guy - not because women don't like being treated nicely, but on the most visceral level, a woman needs a man to be masculine, and the traits of Mr. Nice Guy is anything but masculine.
Bad boys and jerks are masculine, though in a negative sort of way. Aggression, conceit and self-centeredness are as much a part of masculinity as determination, confidence and discipline. It's not that women seek out bad boys on purpose; it's just that in the absence of positive masculinity, they rather have the negative type over the meekness of Mr. Nice Guy. I guess it must be like having bad sex is better than having no sex at all. ...
So what's a Nice Guy to do? That's easy. Keep being nice and gentlemanly, but DON'T seek out the approval of women. Believe in yourself, and cultivate your own brand of self-confidence. Women universally are drawn to Nice Men who exhibit their manliness in a positive way: confidence, integrity and assertiveness. And if you are not afraid to call a woman out when she has obviously crossed the line, you will forever endear yourself to her. Trust me on that one.
Want to read more, get the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. Robert A. Glover, and check out this link:
http://artofmanliness.com/2008/09/28/nice-guys-dont-have-to-finish-last/ | |
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| do any girls actually want nice guys?
Posted: 1/3/2009 12:14:47 PM | | Nice guys don’t exist anymore. Women are right when they say this. Nice guys have been bred out of existence. It’s simple Darwinism. About two decades ago, the last nice guy died. And of course, he left zero offspring like all the other nice guys before him. So due to females not mating with nice guys for centuries, the world is left to us jerks. | |
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| do any girls actually want nice guys?
Posted: 1/3/2009 12:20:09 PM |
Mikej413, great way you explain it -- I wholeheartedly agree.
There is a small minority of women who DO like the standard nice guy, but it is a very small minority, and not designated toward one specific social group... "Nice Guys" should not -ever- assume a girl is one of these (1% under 30; less than 10% under 50).
I think Mr. Nice Guy ends up making serious mistakes:
1. They assume what a woman says, with genuine emotion, is what they truly end up wanting
2. They take "nice guy" to mean a guy who runs errands for them and caters to them -- ie constantly reaching out to please them. They think that's romantic -- especially when a girl says she wants that. Women don't truly want that in a guy -- many want a guy who CAN do that (when the time is right). Nice guys instead try to be an emotional & complimentary sugar daddy, and possibly creeping into financial sugar daddy territory, too.
3. When a woman says "nice guy" they just mean "not a complete overbearing a$$hole". Mr. Nice Guy doesn't understand the huge difference between that and trying to always please them.
4. They may follow advice of their mothers or other older, married women. BAD BAD thing to do.
5. They think that "This is the way I am", and they continue to do their thing, not understanding that in the end, you AREN'T truly pleasing the woman (besides her feeling wanted at the cost of her feeling solidly attracted to you).
So true. Nice guys make the fatal error of actually listening to a woman talk about men, rather than observing her actions. Oftentimes they're completely opposite of each other. Like you said in #4, listening to a omwn is the worst thing to do when it comes to success with the ladies.
Women want a good guy, not a nice guy. A good guy is honest, loyal and supportive. Yet, he has a spine. So he does not become an errand boy or sucker for her. A good guy stands his ground and refuses to succomb to his woman making stupid demands on him. | |
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| do any girls actually want nice guys?winston877..............
Posted: 1/3/2009 3:38:42 PM | Yes we do want nice guys, but being on here for some time and not having any luck, I think the same question can be asked of guys. Do guys want nice girls?? We tend to finish last as well. Yes I am not perfect, nor do I claim to be. I treat my men with respect, faithfulness, honesty, and when I love, it with all of my heart and soul. I work full time, take care of my own, I am a kind person. My question is this, why does all of this never seem to be enough? What more can I offer a decent man?? Any answers, please enlighten me, because I am just ready to throw in the towel and accept the fact that I might indeed be single the rest of my life. | |
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| do any girls actually want nice guys?winston877..............
Posted: 1/3/2009 4:23:34 PM |
Yes we do want nice guys, but being on here for some time and not having any luck, I think the same question can be asked of guys. Do guys want nice girls?? We tend to finish last as well. Yes I am not perfect, nor do I claim to be. I treat my men with respect, faithfulness, honesty, and when I love, it with all of my heart and soul. I work full time, take care of my own, I am a kind person. My question is this, why does all of this never seem to be enough? What more can I offer a decent man?? Any answers, please enlighten me, because I am just ready to throw in the towel and accept the fact that I might indeed be single the rest of my life
I'd love to meet a nice girl. For some reason I attract the bad ones. | |
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ian 27
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Joined: 9/12/2008
Msg: 115 | |
| do any girls actually want nice guys?winston877..............
Posted: 1/3/2009 5:27:51 PM | Nice Guys:
Don't listen to the women in this thread. Look at a woman's behavior to discover what she actually likes. Ignore your preconceptions and think about it scientifically. If you see women consistently choosing a certain type of guy, you can reasonably conclude that that is what they prefer. For example, if I swore up and down that I hated chocolate ice cream and preferred vanilla, but you always saw me eating chocolate ice cream when you knew vanilla was available, you could rightly conclude that I actually prefer chocolate.
Attraction is a mater of instinct, not logic; study it, but don't try to reason with it. | |
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| do any girls actually want nice guys?
Posted: 1/3/2009 6:03:48 PM | | Women want nice guys! They just dont want to have sex with nice guys. If you are a guy who has problems with women and are a nice guy, then go to college. When you get out of college things will be better. You will make alot of money. Most women are turned on by three things: Money, Power, fame. They will flock to you when they see you are well off. (you gotta flaunt it of course) Thats the ice breaker. When they are motivated to talk to you they will see what kind of person you are, and stick around, IF they are worth your time. If they are hobags or golddiggers you will know soon enough, cut and run ASAP. There are goodlooking decent women out there, but you have to get them to look twice at you. If you might not have the looks, or body, YOU control your financial situation. Remember...IF YOU EARN IT....THEY WILL COME. Anyman can do it. | |
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| do any girls actually want nice guys?
Posted: 1/3/2009 8:52:43 PM | Winston.. When women are young they want the bad ass, jerk guy. After having the badd ass kids and being divorce to them they want the nice guy. So when they are in thier 30's and 40's they now want the nice guy. Only a nice guy would take care of someone's kids not his own. Only a nice guy would tell a woman how beautiful she is when here ass and boobs are sagging. You see it in the ads on here.  I love the ladies but they just don't make sense. I always said a black man will be president before a woman. | |
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| do any girls actually want nice guys?
Posted: 1/10/2009 10:59:43 PM | Lets clear this up: I'll be brutally honest here.
Difference between Nice Guy, Great Guy, and Bad Boy.
Nice Guy- To himself, he is good looking, successful, responsible, etc. To her, he is lacking something... looks, success, or responsibility, etc. She may pity him, and stick him in the friendzone. He hates this. He becomes bitter b/c he is not getting laid and writes angry Nice Guy posts in forum.
Bad Boy- He is a pig. He hates women. His picture is in the dictionary next to misogynist. He lives dangerously or very lavishly. Stupid girls (see, not Women) who have self esteem issues are drawn to the promise of excitement and thrill of taming him. They will fail. He will crush their spirit. Then will then seek another bad boy or will grow up and repeat the cycle of pain or ... start acting like WOMEN who now seek Great Guy.
This brings us to....
Great Guy- He fulfills all the expectations and needs that particular woman is seeking (Varies from woman to woman). She feels like she is blessed to be with him, not "settling"... Literally swept off her feet. The feeling is mutual. He might be average to everyone else in the world, but for her... he is perfect.
Now, for some woman out there, you ARE Great Guy. You simply haven't met her yet. For the women in your past, do you really want to be with them out of PITY? How happy would you be? How long do you suppose they could keep up that act? When women get into relationships with Nice Guy, infidelity seems to creep in.
She didn't dump you because you were NICE. She dumped you because she wasn't attracted to you.
Would you stay with a woman you weren't attracted to because she was NICE? I thought so. | |
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| do any girls actually want nice guys?
Posted: 1/11/2009 3:11:53 PM | THE NICE GUY ROUTINE,
I must say that being nice will get you nowhere but neither will being a jerk but as for me the nice guy gentleman thing ahs never worked for me persoanlly so ive decided to go to the dark side and only take care of me and no one else forget your feelings they
will only get you hurt only listen to your mind. | |
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| do any girls actually want nice guys?
Posted: 1/11/2009 4:00:55 PM | I never try to be anything else other than me. I get labelled as the friend, the big brother or the guy that will help you and not complain when I'm dumped at the wayside having served my purpose.
I find myself angry, bitter, resentful - and prone to saying that the bad boys are the only ones that get what I can only dream of. But I'm not going to try and be what I am not.
Eventually I'll meet a lady who values what I am. It's just a case of whether I'll fall off my perch from old age before I find her. | |
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| do any girls actually want nice guys?
Posted: 1/12/2009 1:33:26 AM | ^^^^^^ - I think you're missing something very important here. First, it isn't a black-n-white issue, with Mr Nice Guy and Bad A$$. There is another category (neither). Second, no, you shouldn't change to be someone you're not. However, there is such thing as self-improvement. You aren't the same person as you were when you were 16, right? You should always slowly change for good reason, even if it feels like going against the grain.
The key is not to be Mr. Nice Guy and come off as if your #1 goal is to please a woman all the time, regardless of who and how she is. Women want a guy who CAN please them, and has a spine and knows when not to and say "tough" when she has unnecessary demands. Otherwise, you're treating them like a child - a spoiled child, and you'd be a doormat.
Depending on your looks and build, it can be easier to be assumed to be "Mr Nice Guy". Many times, the only difference between being Mr Nice Guy and Respectable Guy is a little tweaking of one's attitude and how you carry yourself... along with a -true- realization that women of multiple demographics don't want a caterer. | |
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| do any girls actually want nice guys?
Posted: 1/12/2009 11:45:11 PM | Yep. Here is how I would break it down.
Nice guys bad boys and attractive men
Nice guy- pays for things such as dinners, movies, buys gifts just because, tries to win a woman’s approval and affection by paying for things and kissing her ass. He is often chivalrous but he is afraid to say anything to upset or offend her. He’s always cautious, always walking on eggshells around her trying hard not to say anything to upset her or offend her and always trying to impress her and make her like him. He is trying hard to be the perfect gentleman but the bottom line is he is just trying to hard. He might get to be friends with her but usually not much else because he doesn’t excite or challenge the woman and as a result she usually finds him boring and a nice guy.
Bad Boy- the exact opposite of the nice guy. He does things to deliberately push her buttons and see how far he can go. He might do some of the nice guy things but he is such a loose canon that although women are attracted to his “reckless abandon” they are ultimately frustrated by this wild poney who is too emotionally draining and frustrating for her to tame. Like the nice guy the bad boy is also insecure but in a different way. He has to prove himself how tough he is by acting like a jerk thinking that women will somehow respect him more. The sad thing is although they might get attract more women initially than the nice guys they probably do worse in the long run and have trouble maintaining long term relationships.
Attractive man- This is the ideal man for most women. He has the good qualities of both and as such can be considered a balance between the overly bad and the overly nice. Some lean more towards the bad boy side and some more towards the nice guy side. But the difference is the attractive man strikes a balance for the most part. He knows when to back off and when to turn up the heat. He is a challenge but not so much so that he isn’t flexible or able to real her in and make her feel good. However, unlike the nice guy he has a price tag on himself. He will treat the women decently as long as she doesn’t pull anything on him like acting bratty or flaking out. Unlike the nice guy he doesn’t reward her bad behavior. Unlike the bad boy he does reward her good behavior and appreciates the time they spent together. He just doesn’t come from a place of neediness or wussiness but neither does he come from a place of abusiveness and approval seeking overly macho aggressive behavior that would only land him less time with his honey and more time with his new friend Bubba. No, the attractive man is not perfect. Who is. But, he at least is able to maintain more interest over a longer period of time. He is not abusive like the badboy and not a flatterer like the nice guy. Instead he knows how to tease in a playful way that although joking around let's the women know he is not affected by their behavior and cannot be swayed easily or manipulated. Sure he busts on her(something the nice guy won't ever do)but he doesn't do it in a meanspirited way like the bad boy. Unlike the nice guy, he is not trying to win her approval but will show her a fun, exciting time if she is up for it.
One more note about the attractive man. It is not the way he looks that necessarily gets the woman's attention but rather how he presents himself. He might not be Brad Pitt or George Clooney in the looks department but he is well groomed, always looks his best and has a confidence and carefree attitude that makes up for it. | |
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| do any girls actually want nice guys?
Posted: 1/14/2009 9:36:48 AM | I would love to have a nice guy , I just find they are really hard to find .
Don't give up , There is a nice gal out there for you somewhere !!! | |
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| do any girls actually want nice guys?
Posted: 1/14/2009 1:00:07 PM | There's a difference between being a bad *ss and simply a manly man! I think most gals that are into blokes do want a nice guy but want him to be a "man".
Basically, leave out the wuss factor, be nice, but, be a "man". | |
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| do any girls actually want nice guys?
Posted: 1/14/2009 2:25:02 PM | I get sooooo tired of these threads for so many reasons, more often then not because the same tired excuses and arguements come about. I'm going to pick one of the posts to answer the general populace so if the poster of this post should read this please understand I am not infact talking to you perse an nothing should be taken as directed to you even when I say you after this disclaimer LOL.
Lets clear this up: I'll be brutally honest here.
Difference between Nice Guy, Great Guy, and Bad Boy.
No let me clear this up you can't be brutally honest here because your own perceptions and personal defense mechanisms are engaged. When discussing relationships the definition requires two parties, when you classify you are explaining them but not yourself and in so doing are missing a full half of the equation. Infact there are more then Nice Guy, Great Guy, and Bad Boy. There is far more which I'll get into later.
Nice Guy- To himself, he is good looking, successful, responsible, etc. To her, he is lacking something... looks, success, or responsibility, etc. She may pity him, and stick him in the friendzone. He hates this. He becomes bitter b/c he is not getting laid and writes angry Nice Guy posts in forum.
The first example of your bias and the root of the problem in honest discussion of relationships. This definition more then all others is the core defense of males and females one generated to justify treatment they have given others or justify treatment they have received acording to their own perception.
This definition says that the guy views himself as .... How can you know what someone else feels of themselves? You cannot. It says that good looking successful, responsible,etc is the definition of nice? That's not right either a nice person doesn't have to view themselves as any of those things. You say "She may pity him and stick him in the "friendzone" do you know what it feels like to be pittied do you think its a feeling anyone likes to feel? I assure you any nice guy that has been "pittied" has right to be bitter its a cruel thing to do to anyone. We'll discuss more about nice guys a bit later.
Bad Boy- He is a pig. He hates women. His picture is in the dictionary next to misogynist. He lives dangerously or very lavishly. Stupid girls (see, not Women) who have self esteem issues are drawn to the promise of excitement and thrill of taming him. They will fail. He will crush their spirit. Then will then seek another bad boy or will grow up and repeat the cycle of pain or ... start acting like WOMEN who now seek Great Guy.
Ohh it goes so much further then this and its not something that gets faced often. For one its not even that the bad boy is a pig, he doesn't have to be its again an issue of the defensive nature kicking in. What he is is absolutely the worst possible match for the individual, BUT has some trait or feature that is either exciting to you or attractive to you and so you will ignore everyone, and thing that tells you that this is the worst possible person to be around. If you survive you might start being wiser about your relationships but in many cases will not be.
This brings us to....
Great Guy- He fulfills all the expectations and needs that particular woman is seeking (Varies from woman to woman). She feels like she is blessed to be with him, not "settling"... Literally swept off her feet. The feeling is mutual. He might be average to everyone else in the world, but for her... he is perfect.
Again a perception filled view rather then an honest one. A great guy doesn't have to fulfill all the expectations and needs of anyone but themselves an a woman who is wise will see that and if those needs and expectations meet hers. They will learn about each other an see themselves honestly good and bad. They may be literally swept off their feet or it might sneak up on them.. the feeling does not always start mutually and he doesn't even have to be average, because who he is is what matters to her.
Now, for some woman out there, you ARE Great Guy. You simply haven't met her yet. For the women in your past, do you really want to be with them out of PITY? How happy would you be? How long do you suppose they could keep up that act? When women get into relationships with Nice Guy, infidelity seems to creep in.
She didn't dump you because you were NICE. She dumped you because she wasn't attracted to you.
Would you stay with a woman you weren't attracted to because she was NICE? I thought so.
And so in the end we have the closest bits of truth that can be gleaned from this view point. That in the modern view if you are not attractive and immediately so you are to be discarded no matter what virtues you may or may not have. All you can do is either pick yourself up and move on, or persevere and try again. However in modern society that is more often viewed as harrasment then flattering.
Now for the real truth of this topic. There are many kinds of men and women but more importantly then that is the perceptions people have created around themselves to support and comfort their experiences. These things exist in both genders but we'll stick to the male for consistancy.
Nice Guys exist but they are often confused with a more insidious type of the "bad boy" called the manipulator.
He acts a certain way in order to achieve goals and desires not out of genuine nature or interest. He acts politely and chivalrously because it has worked before and allows him to charm passed other warning signs. He might even have convinced himself that he is nice. However observing carefully how he treats others and most specifically those who can offer him nothing shows far less kindness and patience, warns to changes to come. Your friends will probably see through this an warn you or they might not.
They can also be confused for the insecure guy.
This guy isn't manipulative in the sense of trying to get something, but rather because they do not believe they are good enough to be anything but nice. They feel themselves lacking in value for some reason weight, looks, social class, family life, and try to make themselves get along. This guy may grow into a genuine nice guy or upon finding what ever made them insecure change into something different perhaps even self loathing and can become almost overnight opposite of everything they seemed to be.
The true nice guy aka a man. Is someone who has come to grips with who they are not always what they want to be. The will treat all people with a basic kindess and respect and offer more to those who show themselves deserving. They will deal honestly with people and attempt to keep their own flaws from effecting others and make amends when they do. They may be good looking they may be ugly they may seem exciting they may seem mild. BUT they do what they say they will do.
In modern society we have forgotten about this we expect because of the fantasies of Hollywood and our own preoccupation with our own egos. That others are supposed to fit us rather then the truth of it which is we need to fit each other. The simple truth is most people don't want to admit their follies and mistakes, or their own dark behaviors. We've become spoiled wanting instant resolutions rather then realizing that its always been a long process to find a mate and love not a short one.
The truth is most women right now aren't looking for a nice guy or a man.. Not because that isn't what they really want but because they have confused lustful infatuations and the criteria required for those vs love and relationships. If you look only for what you find attractive at first glance you will almost never find anything of value. That is the truth | |
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