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| Age of consent laws:Outdated?
Posted: 6/22/2008 11:32:56 AM | Over thousands of years older men have been using religion, theory, philosophy, polygamy, and other ways to screw little girls.
I've been all over the world and U.S. women by far are the most immature. An 18 year old in Russia, ukraine and spain are light years more mature than a U.S. girl. But in the U.S., 18 should be the range. Its not outdated and it needs to not even be thought of.
In other countries laws are a tad different and they do go a little younger in age, but I think 18 should be the world wide standard. | |
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| Age of consent laws:Outdated?
Posted: 6/22/2008 11:41:44 AM | The Akon scandal comes to mind (where he simulated sex with a 14 year old girl in a 21 and over club). I think they went to far with that though.
18 is a reasonable age though. | |
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| Age of consent laws:Outdated?
Posted: 7/7/2008 5:11:18 PM | | The film Hard Candy featuring the sublime Ellen Page has an excellent quote that I'm sure I'm not nailing down word for word in this, but the message is the same: "Just because a kid flirts like a woman and decides to experiment by acting like a woman doesn't mean she is ready to do what a woman does." A grown male adult cannot treat a teenage GIRL like an equal. He is to be a role model and voice of authority in her life. Now in some cases, like when a man is 21 and a girl is 16, I think that the proximity in age and the social structure where college and high school students fraternize with each other, some common sense is called for when passing judgement on such a situation. Also, if a girl with a fake ID fools the bartender, the man who takes her home should not be condemned for similarly being had, as it were. However, in the case of teacher and student, the man is culpable and the girl is not. Teenagers acting like adults sexually should be treated the same as children playing house. It's practice for something they are just not ready for yet, and sometimes, the actual adult has to be the adult. | |
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| Age of consent laws:Outdated?
Posted: 7/8/2008 3:06:51 AM | | in this country, the law is the law, whether people want to accept the minimum age or not, doesnt matter what the girl wanted or wants, an adult(over 21 should have said no, ) england is and correct me if i am wrong but i believe 15 or 16 is age of consent there, but not here, they think we are a bit antiquated with our laws and our butchering of the queens english and after being in England, some yes some no. i for one dont believe a 15 year old is mature enough to make such decisions, its the parents job to give guidance and to protect their child from themselves at times. you already stated you know what he did was wrong, and yes, the punishment fits the crime. to many pre adult unwed mothers out there. yes they are one in the same. adults having sex even consentual with a minor under the law are pedophiles and are treated and sentenced as such. | |
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me511
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Joined: 6/24/2008
Msg: 131 | |
| Age of consent laws:Outdated?
Posted: 7/8/2008 9:56:45 PM | We first have to understand that things are different in Canada then here in the US. Now a 15 year old in another country is like a 25 year old here. sorry thats the truth.
Anyway, to the OP. If i was ever baited by a 13 year old pretending to be a 22 year old and got blamed for it that would be scary as hell. Cause everyone on te jury would believe daddy's little innocent girl. But really she was at the bar, with a fake ID, pretended to be something she wasnt and the victim is guilty? Honestly i would try to counter sue her and her father for everything they have. Sounds horrible but how did i do wrong? That girl needs to be labeled with something. I tell you though there are worse things going right now than teens having sex. but teens having sex with adults is wrong but i dont think we should expose this problem. We need to tell childran that sex is emotional to. And that it takes alot to handle. | |
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| Age of consent laws:Outdated?
Posted: 7/9/2008 2:21:31 AM | First, and foremost, let me go on record as saying that I fully condemn any kind of exploitative sexual relationship, whether it is a parent-child, teacher-student, doctor-patient, boss-employee, president-intern... regardless of the ages involved.
Further, I personally don't see how anyone over age 20 would be able to have a serious, healthy, dating relationship with anyone 15-17 years old. The teenager usually just doesn't have the life experience to relate to the adult. We often make similar compatibility arguements about a 20-something hooking up with a 40-something. Likewise, there are many over the age of 18 who also don't yet have that level of experience, and some of them will never achieve it. Then again, there are a lot of people having purely sexual relationships, regardless of the ages of the people involved, and I'll refrain from making any moral value judgements about their choices. (I'm not even getting into the underlying psychology of why a teenager would want to be with an older man or woman rather than someone their own age, and vica versa.)
I find it interesting that the comments in this thread seem to be all gender specific about older men with teenage girls, so I'll present the rest of this in that context, although the genders could just as easily be reversed. (That actually raises a question for another thread, why it is so much more socially unacceptable for an adult man and a teenage girl to be together than for a teenage boy and an adult woman? Yes, I realize that there seem to be a lot fewer reported instances of the latter. Does that mean that it happens less, or just that less people make such a big deal of it?)
Some on here made blanket statements that teenagers are not mentally and emotionally capable of making an adult decision -- specifically whether or not to have sex with someone. If that is true, then it would also apply to other actions, would it not? If so, then we would never have hearings of whether the 15-year-old robber should be tried as an adult, would we? Our courts see no problem with weighing evidence whether the 15-year-old boy was mature enough to be tried as an adult for a crime he chose to commit, but they won't consider that a 15-year-old girl was mature enough to choose to have sex with an older man, for whatever her reason might have been.
I do think that our legislators and the judiciary are hypocritical in that regard. Never mind that, generally speaking, girls mature faster/earlier than boys their own age. As evidenced by so many of the postings to other threads in this forum, there are many over the ages of 18 and 21 who are not mature enough to responsibly enter into a sexual relationship. Therefore, it would stand to reason that there are also those under 18 who are ready. Some other respondents wrote about themself that they were, regardless of the age of the partner whom they chose at the time.
I post this merely to point out that if we are willing to adjust the age of legal accountability for criminal behaviour, we should be equally willing to adjust the age of consent for sexual behaviour, both on a case by case basis. Certainly the conduct of the girl should be taken into account, especially if she misrepresented her age. A date on the calendar does not necessarily an adult make, and the laws need to take that into consideration for sexual consent, as they do for other more offensive behaviour.
I remember reading a study of women who, as teenagers, had consensual sex with an adult, and their reasons ranged from "He was hot" to "He was older so I thought he knew how to please me better" to "I was in love" and lotsa' variations in between. As I recall, most of the women reported that it was a positive experience, that they didn't feel they had any lasting trauma or maladjustment from it, and that they would have regretted if the man had gotten in any trouble for it.
I'm just thankful that I don't have any children for whom I hafta' worry about this issue. I think I could become a basket case. I'm not completely insulated from it though, as I have friends whose children are teenagers, some of whom are like family to me, and I would join their parents to move heaven and earth to go after anyone who harmed them in anyway.
We have had some interesting discussions on this topic -- about whether they would be more upset to have their daughter in the back seat with another teenager whose primary concern was his own gratification, and maybe not knowing how to properly use protection, or with an older man who would take the time to make sure that it was as good for her, and that they used protection responsibly. Most agree that their daughter's health, safety, readiness, and happiness, are all more important than the particular age of the partner she chooses.
The operative words there are readiness, mentally and emotionally as well as physically, and her choice. I don't think that we can make absolute statements or laws about human growth and development, maturity, and sexuality. | |
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| Age of consent laws:Outdated?
Posted: 7/9/2008 9:28:05 AM | | Here's the kicker, even if the 15 year old showed you ID (talk about a moment killer) but had faked her ID, you're still in trouble. | |
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| Age of consent laws:Outdated?
Posted: 7/9/2008 9:30:46 AM | CPTMIAGR said:
The operative words there are readiness, mentally and emotionally as well as physically, and her choice. I don't think that we can make absolute statements or laws about human growth and development, maturity, and sexuality.
I knjow this is an old thread. Certainly it's not one unique to this forum. But it really needs to be part of an ongoing dialog if we as a culture are to evolve beyond our outdated views of sex and sexuality.
There are strong arguments on both sides of this debate. On one side, we argue about child abuse, emotional immaturity, taking advantage of one's power over a child, etc. On the other, we talk about earlier sexual maturation (the onset of puberty is far younger than even a generation ago), the prevelance (and therefore apparent encouragement) of sexual imagery available to teens (just walk into any A&F store, for example), the importance of sexual education/disease prevention, etc.
One thing that continues to strike me - or disturb me - is the prevelance of double standards throughout this debate, here and elsewhere. One has already been brought up - culturally, we think it far worse for an adult male to be with an adolescent than if it's an adult female. And maybe that makes sense, but it shouldn't. Assuming both instances involve no coercion, both should be seen equally. But they're not, not even by the courts. In fact, LeTourneau got far bigger breaks by the courts than a man would have in the same situation.
Another, more disturbing double standard is how we culturally expect our children to remain sex-less until that magical age of consent (which, by the way, ranges from 14 ((in some states with certain limitations)) to 18) but then be fully ready to rock and roll. Hell, our Federal government mandates funding only for abstinence only sex-ed!
Still another double standard is how we promote provocative clothing for teens and even pre-teens, clothing that has some kids referring to some of the girls around here as "prostitots". The images forced upon them in ads, magazines, clothing stores, make-up counters, etc., all are blatantly sexual, all encourage them to look and act sexually provocative. Their movies, music ("Ooops, I Did IT Again"), and television shows deal with sex and seem to encourage it. And still we're shocked when an older man becomes attracted to some cute little teenager in tight shorts and a crop top with a belly button ring and acts upon it.
We'll never have consensus on what is referred to as intergenerational sex. But we need to think about it long and hard. Because from what I'm seeing in my neck of the woods, it's becoming evident that kids are *not* eschewing sex with each other. We really need to think long and hard about our schools only teaching abstinence to kids with raging hormones rather than birth control and disease prevention. We need to give kids the right tools so they can make the right choices *for them*, not for our sensibilities and moral outrage.
Hell, I've been to bed with women in their 40's who, on reflection, weren't mature enough to have sex. And I've been to bed with some pretty savvy women in their 20's. There's no magic age at which someone is ready for sex. My kids have been brought up talking about options, condoms, different sexualities for years. They now range in age from 16 to 20. Some are experienced and have been for years, some aren't. But they know more than they would have from schools alone.
The issue shouldn't be about age. It should be the same as with anyone. Was the sex forced or was it consensual. Should we be outraged if a well informed teenager *chooses* to have sex with an adult yet turn a blind eye to the same girl having sex at a party with a kid in her class? A sixteen year old around here can get their driver's license. An 18 year old can vote. There are some 60 year olds around here who should have their licenses revoked and voting privileges taken away. It's not the age that matters, it's the emotional and intellectual readiness *of the individual*.
I certainly am not advocating men or women actively seeking relationships with teens. But it would be stupid and naive of me to assume that 1) it doesn't happen, 2) it won't continue to happen, and 3) we can stop it. If our attitude about sex wasn't so overly protective, if we would stop trying to link it to love and recognize it for what it is, a basic human drive, if we educated our kids about it in that context, this topic would begin losing it's onus.
And perhaps if we demystified and deglamorized sex more, kids wouldn't be drawn to adults for sex and solace and attention and affection. Lastly, if we as parents make sure our kids know we are available to them, that we are indeed their safe harbor of comfort and solace and protection, this wouldn't be an issue at all.
Just some overly caffeinated thoughts.
D. | |
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me511
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Joined: 6/24/2008
Msg: 135 | |
| Age of consent laws:Outdated?
Posted: 7/9/2008 10:43:01 AM | | I agree. We should teach our kids how to protect themselves. Abstinence pledges are ridiculous. And yes. Young girls are going to try and bait or seduce older men. They are smart and they know how to. But we need to teach teens how to handle sex not suppress it. | |
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| Age of consent laws:Outdated?
Posted: 7/9/2008 11:22:41 AM | | My opinion is if the person knowingly knows the age of the other person than it is probably wrong but if she lies about her age and looks like the age she says she is than that should be accounted for. And also there are those perticular girls that do con guys into having sex with them by saying if you don't have sex with me I will lie and say you did so now your screwed if you don't which who knows this could have happened to his friend. But in all if you know you should say no. And another thing is it's almost to the point you have to ask for ID just my opinion | |
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| Age of consent laws:Outdated?
Posted: 7/9/2008 11:38:52 AM | It has not been that long ago that a 12 year old girl was considered an old maid if she was not married by then. My grand parents had their first child in their mid teens and were married for 70 years. I think that it is a maturity issue not an age issue. In the old days the people were more mature because they had to be. In this day and age society tries to protect by not exposing us to the life lessons that we need to know.
I think that the teacher did something wrong. It was bad judgement on his part but I also think that his punishment is too severe. After all there was another person involved and I am sure that she was a willing participant. He did not hunt her down and rape her.
If the girl's are willing to do the act that should be taken into consideration. | |
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| Age of consent laws:Outdated?
Posted: 7/9/2008 11:47:40 AM | A reasonable age of consent law takes into consideration the ages of both individuals. The one that seems to make the most sense to me sets differing age rules.
First: anyone can consent at the age of 18.
Secondly: if there are more then two calendar years between participants it is assumed that the younger participant can not consent. | |
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| Age of consent laws:Outdated?
Posted: 7/9/2008 1:38:56 PM | If the girl's are willing to do the act that should be taken into consideration
If young teens are willing to smoke, drink and do drugs, should that be taken into consideration also?
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| Age of consent laws:Outdated?
Posted: 7/10/2008 7:33:29 AM |
If young teens are willing to smoke, drink and do drugs, should that be taken into consideration also?
The reality is that teens - and preteens in many cases - *do* smoke, drink, and do drugs. Kids today are far more sexually aware than any previous generation. The idea that 14 year olds aren't ready for sex, or capable of consenting to it is far too broad a generality. As I said in a similar thread, there are 14 year olds savvy enough to have sex and know who they want to have it with and their are 40 year olds who should be locked in chastity belts. It's an individual's maturity that should be the issue, not an age-defined arbitrary criterion.
And again, we need to understand the consent laws range from 18 down to 14. So what *is* the "right age" for a teen to consent to sex? And if they can consent to a peer, who says they can't consent to an older person. I'm one year younger than my wife's father (calm down, folks, I'm on the downwind leg towards 60). Is that too great an age difference? Is a 16 year old with someone four years older too much of a difference?
Criminalize actual rape - violent, forced, non-consensual sex. But let's get realistic about teen sex, regardless of to whom they consent. Puberty begins earlier and earlier every few years. Sexual images are all over media. Kids *know* *about* sex. Let's teach them from an early age how to engage in it without coercion, safely, consensually, and for mutual pleasure. Let's stop infantisizing our kids until they reach the "age of consent". Because then we have a bunch of clueless, horney "adults" who continue to make poor choices.
D. | |
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| Age of consent laws:Outdated?
Posted: 7/11/2008 7:11:45 PM | if you are old enough to die for your country you are old enough to make love.
Make the age of consent for everything 18. Drinking, driving, sex, smoking, marriage, borrowing and gambling money, owning or using a firearm, voting, entering a strip joint, joining the army.
No matter how adult they behave a 15 Y.O girl is not mental mature enough to deal with the issues of sex. Just because many girls are having underage sex now, doesnt excuse it, it just means that there are more young women growing up with a multitude of emotional problems that dont always show themselves immediately.
A man or indeed a woman should accept responsibility for their actions, if an underage person uses fake id, then it still doesnt excuse the adult who should of used common sense. Are you that desperate for sex that you hook up with the first person that offers it. You gotta think beyond the next 10 minutes.
It's the same attitude with drinkers who try to excuse bad behaviour when drunk as not been their fault because they are drunk and dont know what they are doing. Maybe the very first time it happens, you can show a tiny little bit of leeway, but cant use that excuse a second time cos you should know then not to get drunk in the first place.
love and peace
hug someone new today 
regards from 40, defender of the faith, the weak and the ridiculous. | |
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