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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 12/2/2005 3:05:22 PM | | Well in regards to the OP, whatever you want to do is your business and I couldn't care less as long as it doesn't harm anyone, all involved are of legal age and all are consenting adults. Don't look to anyone within these forums for validation (you definately won't find it) I'm not sure it's biblical...and personally I don't care if it was, because the practice itself just isn't my thing. There are many things written in the Bible and I disagree with them...so do your thing and live your life how you choose too. | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 12/2/2005 3:30:24 PM | Thanks, we certainly agree with you on this, there are certain things we also don't agree with in the Bible as well, "big shocker there" we feel that even that has been corrupted to some degree.
We certainly will not be forcing anyone and this is not about anyone underage, it's just what we feel is right for us. We know this isn't right for all and have stated so.
Steve & Kara | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 12/2/2005 3:38:32 PM |
it's just what we feel is right for us
And in the end, that's all that really matters. Goodluck to you both. | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 12/3/2005 12:00:53 PM | Thank you we appreciate your best wishes.
Kara & Steve | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 12/5/2005 1:34:37 PM | Steve and Kara.. friends, you must have known when you posted here that the swine which Yashua spoke of would come out of the woodwork, and trample your pearls. Few today truly understand scripture and therefore I won't waste time posting the additional biblical polygyny arguments I could, although I have an a***nal of such. The little piggy people would simply find any way they could to twist simple scriptures. I reserve most of my teaching for one on one. I have found that you must discern who to spend time on. General, true statements such as the biblical validity of polygyny are fine, to stir the pot, however !
I would be happy to correspond with you, as I am a man of Yahweh, and am, as you are, open to a second wife. I don't really expect to find her on a personals site, and the pool of decent girls has shrunk dramatically in the perverted MTV age. Take a look around this site and you'll have all the proof you need!
My first wife of over 20 years is totally for this if we can find the right girl. We have considered quite a few that proved unsuitable for various reasons, although a few girls were very close and we treasure our friendships.
All the best from a fellow believer, May Yahweh bless you and yours and keep you from the great evil of this current darkness. | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 12/5/2005 1:36:36 PM | | LOL.. the software censored "arsen @L " | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 12/5/2005 4:53:50 PM |
I have found that you must discern who to spend time on. General, true statements such as the biblical validity of polygyny are fine, to stir the pot, however !
So are you saying that you are here to stir the pot? | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 12/19/2005 1:41:04 PM | It's nice to hear some common sense finally. First of all, to talk to non-Bible believers, (OT or NT) on this subject, is a waste of time, because their fallacious sense of moral guidance comes from "withinnnnn". They don't care what God wants or expects, allows or disallows. In fact, the reality of it is, if they met God/Yahshua/Jesus/Jehovah/Elohim/ etc, they wouldn't like Him, and He wouldn't like them. Abraham was one of the very few men who ever lived on earth who actually DID meet God face to face in real life. Abraham was called the "friend of God", an honor not given to anyone else.
If Abraham was commiting adultery/fornication by having wives and concubines(which he did have, and an unknown number at that), then God would have told him to his face. God Blessed Abraham, as well as the other most prominent collectors of Jewels(wives) in their crowns.
God does not change. He didn't modernize. He didn't listen to madonnas new slut song (pardon the insult to the female pig) and decide He's been missing out on some insights.
The restrictions given to certain elders of the church (NT), had specific reasons which were related more to public relations and less exacerbation of the pagan empire which ruled over Israel and much of the world at that time. It was pagan Rome which outlawed and banned plural marriage, and that was hundreds of years AD. There were many reasons for PAGAN ROME to do that. If someone wanted to study about it, they might be surprised at how interesting the subject is.
The main point is, that the Bible is not a constitution. It doesn't have amendments. Wrong is wrong, whether the punishment is immediate, corporal(bodily), or whether the punishment of a person is reserved for their soul, after death.
If a Holy God will not have plural marriage now, or in His reign during the upcoming millennium(Isaiah 4), then He would not have allowed it under His smaller scale rulership over the nation of Israel.
God was King, Prophet and Lord over Israel, at different times. During all of those times, and among all the strict rules that He made for them, not one time did he ever scold anyone who practiced plural marriage. In fact It was considered to be a blessing to have a large family and the teamwork and cooperation and working together and ability of the women to come into such submission to their husband (ruler), was highly beneficial.
You will never read about there being any jealousy related to a wife jealous of the husband having another wife, but you will find that the women had the right mentality, and their sense of loss or sadness was from not being able to have children. So what was their solution? The same as this woman who wants to have a baby, and so is posting on this website. The Bible tells women to "be like Sarah, who wore modest clothing and etc, and loved her husband so much she called him her lord".
Yes it says "lord". Which means ownership/rulership. This woman is doing "exactly" what the Bible said for a good wife to do. I admire her, and she should be commended.
For any questions, comments, concerns, complaints, observations or requests, feel free to message Dr TePeS. drtepes55@yahoo.com | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 12/19/2005 1:51:32 PM | Thank you Dr TePeS this is a very insightful post, it is it in a nutshell that I am emulating Sarah Thanks for the admiration and commendment it is much appreciated.
Kara | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 12/19/2005 1:53:18 PM | | How come God did'nt make Adam a couple of Eve's?? Can a woman have more than one husband in the bible?? | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 12/19/2005 1:58:59 PM | It speaks in scripture about it being a sin for a woman to have more than one husband, which is part and parcel what is happing in the world today, did you know that in Yahweh's eyes if you have intercourse with someone you are married to them?
There are some schools of thought that Yahweh had created two other women before Eve but that Adam was not pleased with them and didn't marry them. We have no idea if there is any truth to this or not as we only heard about it today.
Steve & Kara | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 12/19/2005 2:16:39 PM | It speaks in scripture about it being a sin for a woman to have more than one husband
please give a specific verse..
Yahweh had created two other women before Eve but that Adam was not pleased with them
So God was creating rejects was he?? | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 12/19/2005 2:45:48 PM | Man was made for God. Woman was made for man. Children are the result of man and woman doing what they were designed to do. Everyone wants/needs fulfillment. That's the key to all the problems. If the fulfillment need is in its' correct form, then there will be true happiness and harmony with mankind, nature and God. It's when the fulfillment need becomes perverted, that unhappiness and disharmony and anarchy take over.
A "correct" (healthy mentally/spiritually) man, has the desire to expand, the desire to disseminate or propagate all that he is. God gave him that desire, for the purpose of God living through those offspring which the man produces. In that way, Man is fulfilling God, because God is a spirit, and the way He lives and experiences His fulfillment, is through His sons spritually, as man does with his children in a physical sense.
A woman produces one egg at a time normally, but the man produces many millions. That is Gods design and nature. Woman was made to perpetuate the fulfillment of man, just like man was made to perpetuate the fulfillment of God. Woman should be fulfilled by fulfilling man, and man should be fulfilled by fulfilling/perpetuating God(liness). We don't limit God to how many children or how great or powerful His Kingdom is. A wife has no right to limit her man from the same thing.
Her goal should be the maximum elevation of the physical and spiritual level of herself, her husband and their kids and their family. Meaning maximum fullfillment of what is within them on earth.
One woman with many husbands would not be able to logically perpetuate them all, or provide maximum fulfillment for them in all aspects. The male is made to be dominant. When the female tries to be dominant over her male, she is out of the natural order, and it is perversion. A man can only have one master, and that is God, A woman can only have one master and that is her husband(who should be ruled by God). God can be the master of many. Man is made in the "image of God". Man is designed to be a king. God is King of kings, and Lord of lords. Men who "serve" under the Kingship and Lordship of the Ultimate King or Lord, can themselves be granted the privelege of Adoption and Sonship, which makes them themselves kings and lords. Eve was made "for" Adam, to be a help-mate to him.
The more help-mates a person has, the more profound and great their achievements can be. A woman having more than one husband, is the same as a man having more than one God. All the ten commandments that apply to a man obeying God, also apply to a woman in subjection to her husband.
Your question is along the same lines of asking, why can't two men be married. Their desire to do that, shows that their need for fulfillment has become perverted, and there is something wrong somewhere. It wouldn't work, and it has never worked in history. However, Plural marriage has worked and does work. This is very simple.
I don't want to make a book on here, but I hope that the question was answered. If you're not asking from a Biblically "subjective" point of view, then what is explained from a Biblical obediance point of view, will be meaningless.
king TePeS has spoken. So let it be written, So let it be done. | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 12/19/2005 2:46:19 PM | Didn't Sarah give Hagar to Abraham to concieve a son? (That would make her Abrahams wife according to the earlier statement). Then Sarah asked Abraham to send Hagar away after the birth of Isaac. God told Abraham to listen to Sarah.
This doesn't mesh with what I am hearing in this thread, First it sounds like Hagar should have been considered Abraham's wife....Second Sarah sounds like she was jealous | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 12/19/2005 2:58:19 PM | | King Linead55..quite nicey argued out..I guess I could do as good as job for the OT for arguing that a king must have slaves also. | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 12/19/2005 4:06:31 PM | Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 12/19/2005 10 19 PM
Didn't Sarah give Hagar to Abraham to concieve a son? (That would make her Abrahams wife according to the earlier statement). Then Sarah asked Abraham to send Hagar away after the birth of Isaac. God told Abraham to listen to Sarah.
This doesn't mesh with what I am hearing in this thread, First it sounds like Hagar should have been considered Abraham's wife....Second Sarah sounds like she was jealous
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Exactly. Sarah urged Abraham to take a second wife so that he would have fulfillment.
By re-reading the story carefully, one would understand that the source of jealousy was not due to Abraham having a second wife, but due to the fact that there was a mix up over inheritance rights. Although Hagars son was older, it was Sarahs son who was to be granted the main rights of inheritance, (the promise) etc.
The problem was not due to 2 females fighting over "exclusivity" rights to their husband, but it was due to the usurpation of the younger son gaining the first place, over the elder. This same story is also duplicated in the story of esau and jacob. The younger supplants the elder.
This is a type of the supplanting of "Israel" the nation, as a wife to God, being "put away" for a time and God taking a "bride" out of the gentiles. Israel was not and will never be Divorced by God, but they have been put away for a time of repentance.
Abraham did NOT divorce Hagar, he simply had her to go live somewhere else, away from his main family group. God Himself said that he woudl make a great nation from the offspring of Abraham and Hagar.
There is a big difference between a husband "putting away" a wife, and a wife being "divorced". "Put away = temporary separation", "divorce" = Death(permanent separation).
Hagar was the wife of Abraham, and from re-reading that story, you will see that she is referred by God as being his wife. The difference between a wife and a concubine, was only inheritance rights. A concubine is a wife, but her children do not get the same benefits and inheritance rights as a wife. It was Hagar who had the jealousy, because she was the one who wanted her son to get the higher inheritance.
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nevercanezzer
Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 12/19/2005 10 19 PM
King Linead55..quite nicey argued out..I guess I could do as good as job for the OT for arguing that a king must have slaves also.
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You won't find any place where an Israeli king had "slaves". The word slave during that time didn't mean the same as what you think of when u think of slaves like in the early history of the US, or other places who treat slaves like animals. Under the economic system of Israel, there were strict rules about how to treat other "people" who were in servanthood for whatever reason. I wouldn't go around promoting people to try to find slaves, because were not in that type of economy, or governorship. Having a wife, or wives, is not equal to having slaves. What it does, is the opposite. It provides freedom to all involved. Much more financial strength, which equals more time for family growth and activities and development of talents, and skills. It is a slave master relationship as far as the authority factor, but Christians also consider themselves "slaves" to God. And the Jews also are along those same lines, and many other religions promote a complete subjection to some form of rules or idealogy.
Children are not slaves to their parents, but the parents do rule the children. Wives are not slaves to the husband, but he does rule over them, and they are supposed to obey. Christianity is not a democracy type of institution or organization. It's not a partnership. It is a "dictatorship". So is marriage. You can have bad or good dictatorships. It depends on the dictator. That's why it's so critical for the woman to make sure she finds a truly God fearing husband, because that is the Boss she will have too. If he's his own boss, then she's dealing with an animal as her boss. I hope that explains things more for you.
lord TePeS has. | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 12/19/2005 4:16:15 PM |
It speaks in scripture about it being a sin for a woman to have more than one husband
please give a specific verse..
Romans 7:2-3 For the married woman has been bound by Torah to the living husband, but if the husband dies, she is released from the Torah concerning her husband. v. 3 So then, while her husband lives, she shall be called an alduteress, having become another man's.
Steve & Kara | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 12/19/2005 4:28:45 PM |
This doesn't mesh with what I am hearing in this thread, First it sounds like Hagar should have been considered Abraham's wife....Second Sarah sounds like she was jealous
Sarah had Abraham send Hagar away because the son Ishmael mocked Isaac. Yahweh still blessed the union even though the boy made fun of his brother, and made a great nation out of Ishmael, I certainly don't know the full reason as to why Yahweh told Abraham to send Hagar and Ishmael away but I have an educated guess that it was to keep turmoil and strife to come into the household.
Steve & Kara | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 12/19/2005 4:39:37 PM |
Exactly. Sarah urged Abraham to take a second wife so that he would have fulfillment.
By re-reading the story carefully, one would understand that the source of jealousy was not due to Abraham having a second wife, but due to the fact that there was a mix up over inheritance rights. Although Hagars son was older, it was Sarahs son who was to be granted the main rights of inheritance, (the promise) etc.
King of the wives : if polyjimmy was so acceptable to God why did Abraham wait so long to get a second wife?? It could'nt have taken him long to figure that Sarah was not going to give him offspring...... | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 12/19/2005 5:04:28 PM | Abraham had an unknown number of concubines, and also we don't in fact know how many wives he had.
""""but to the sons of Abraham's concubines, Abraham gave gifts. He sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, to the east country. (WEB)
But unto the sons of the concubines, that Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts. And he sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country. (ASV)
But to the sons of his other women he gave offerings, and sent them away, while he was still living, into the east country. (BBE)"""
Many times, just as the birth of daughters are not mentioned, also the number of wives is not always given, or their names or how many children they had. We can assume that Abraham had many children. However, here is the key factor in this. The promise was to come through "SARAH". She was the key component. The promised son to whom the primary inheritance rights and blessings were to be conferred, were to go through Sarah. It was not Abraham alone who had the importance in this, but Sarah his wife also had some special signifigance in Gods eyes. Why that it, I'm not sure what it was about her that set her apart, just the same as I don't know all the reasont Abraham was set apart.
In conclusion to your question, we don't know that they waited, for all we know, he may have already had 500 kids by the time he had his "promised" son. Jesus himself had other brothers and sisters, because Mary had other children after that birth. Also, we don't even know how many wives Joseph had;).
master TePeS has. | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 12/19/2005 6:39:40 PM | | So are you proposing to have concubines or marrying these women?? Bountifull in BC Canada has Polythingy happening, but whether its bountifull in women I would not know.. | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 12/19/2005 6:50:48 PM | Apparently there is some contention that Hagar was Abraham's wife:
The custom refered to in verse 2 is well known in history and for instance in Babylonian law a wife was entitled to get children from her husband through her slave, without any idea that the slave would receive the status of a legal wife. In the Bible the same custom is employed again by Abraham's grandson Jacob with Lea and Rachel, his wives, and their maidservants Bilhah and Zilpah (Gen. 29:31 - 30:23).
Source:http://www.answering-islam.org/BibleCom/gen16-3.html
It also talks of Hagar being sent away because once she (Hagar) became pregnant she was rude to Sarah.
Again I say, Sister wife is saying that once a woman sleeps with a man, that under the eyes of God they are married. Yet others talk about Abraham's concubines. Obviously not considered wives. | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 12/19/2005 6:54:13 PM | | So its that the three now become one??? | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 12/19/2005 8:13:36 PM | | I don’t believe polygamy was ever what God wanted. Look what happened to Abraham when he took Hagar as a wife. | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 12/19/2005 10:37:37 PM | STUDENT says:
Posted: 12/19/2005 6 40 PM
So are you proposing to have concubines or marrying these women?? Bountifull in BC Canada has Polythingy happening, but whether its bountifull in women I would not know..
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lord TePeS says:
Hehe, that's a good pun. Well, The issue isn't really "where" the wife is found. Regarding having concubines. Once again, you're not putting yourself into the context of the time that they lived in. It's important to look at the Bible from a historical perspective, and not just a spiritual and biological perspective. During that time, God was the Ruler over a nation on earth. They were a conquering people, who killed and cut the heads off of their enemies, and they took the women to be their concubines, and killed their babies and husbands. That was an army controlled by God Himself, with God even leading the charge many times with His own bloody sword. The God of the Bible is not a pansy santa clause type of person. He's not a benevolent chubby guy up there either, who doesn't care what everone does, as long as there not naughty and are nice. They had concubines mostly who were from other areas. We are Gentiles, and we are a mixture already. None of us are of pure blood or concerned so much with maintaining that so strictly as the nation of Israel was "commanded" to do. The term concubine can't really apply to a gentile, because were not trying to maintain some pure blood line and protecting inheritances which should be reserved for the pure breed of our race.
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STUDENT says:
seriouslyfunnylady
Apparently there is some contention that Hagar was Abraham's wife:
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king TePeS says:
(Genesis 16:3-4) And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his -->***WIFE***<--. And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.
The Biblical term used here for Hagar is "WIFE". That is because a concubine is a wife. But she was on a lower level of rights as far as inheritances and etc. Once again, we dont have concubines among gentiles, because a concubine was simply of a different culture, religion and blood line. Moses wrote this book, and Moses called Hagar Abrahams wife. Please feel free to argue with Moses regarding whether a concubine is a wife or not. The main thing here, is that we have only one word for wife. In that time, place and language, a concubine is a "type" of wife.
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STUDENT says:
Again I say, Sister wife is saying that once a woman sleeps with a man, that under the eyes of God they are married. Yet others talk about Abraham's concubines. Obviously not considered wives.
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teacher TePeS says:
You would have to go into the subject of what constitutes marriage. That is very interesting, and can take several hours to scratch the surface of all the dynamics between the parallels between spiritual and physical marriage.
To simplify, and this can be verified by self study of "the BIBLE", not only a few select websites that express their variety of opinions. But here is the basic realities of it Biblically.
If a man sleeps with a woman who is not a virgin, and he has no intention of marrying her, and if she has no intention or she pretends to him or herself that she will marry him, then that is considered fornication, because he is lying with a *harlot*. That is not marriage, that is fornication.
When a man and woman come together and make oaths to each other with their words of commitement between each other and to God, then they have achieved step one of becoming husband and wife. After that, the only thing left is the physical union. Once they do that, then in Gods eyes, they are considered man and wife. Not just because of the fact that they exchanged fluids(natural), but also because they exchanged vows(spiritual{words=vibrations which never end}) that were not only between themselves and some human claiming to represent God, but they made the vows to God Himself. That is marriage. The DISPLAYED INTENTION, verbal or unspoken, made between man and woman for becoming husband and wife, which is then sealed in heaven, then they are betrothed. Then when they become one physically, they complete that union, by the blood act, and they become one spiritually and then physically. There are detailed explanations given in the Bible which explain more about all the various situations that would occur and the responsibilities that go with that. Once again you have to keep in mind the time and culture and situation of them being Israelis, versus us being Gentiles. Discernment is necessary, to be able to sort out fact from fiction when dealing with these things. That comes from a combination of Spirit and logic.
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STUDENT says:
Alive in Christ
I don’t believe polygamy was ever what God wanted. Look what happened to Abraham when he took Hagar as a wife.
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master TePeS says:
(Proverbs 30:21-23) For three things the earth is disquieted, and for four which it cannot bear: For a servant when he reigneth; and a fool when he is filled with meat; For an odious woman when she is married; and an HANDMAID that is HEIR to her mistress.
Hagar fits three of these four categories. The Bible does not tell women to strive to be like "Hagar". It tells them to be like Sarah. Hagar was the perpetuator of the end of the happy and harmonious home that Sarah was hoping to build with Abraham and Hagar. That's why Sarah introduced Hagar into the family. Unfortunately, Hagar had the wrong attitude. That was not the fault of Abraham or Sarah. There was no flaw in the system. It was a flaw in Hagar herself. That's why you will not find any positive reference toward Hagar. Hagar was a Jezebel type of mentality woman. She was a selfish and jealous type, and also she took advantage of the privelege and trust she was given by being part of their family. The lesson here was not that plural marriage failed, but it was that the Egyptian woman was not a true follower of the Israeli customs and did not regard their rules of conduct and attitude and mentality. In fact she came from Egypt, which was a monogamous culture, and so therein arises her perverted inclination to try to think in terms of competitiveness toward other women, instead of the right attitude of cooperation and teamwork. This is typical of the Denominational churches now, who all claim to be the "RIGHT" ONE, and they have the truth, but the other ones dont. Meaning they have Christ, but the others don't. They are daughters of the Whore Rome, which is why they are called harlots. They are rebellious to real Biblical truth, and the husband they claim to serve, is in fact not even the real one. They follow the traditions and false doctrine of their mother, and their mother claims the headship of the family. That's another story, don't let me get going on that.
For further questions, comments, concerns, observations, requests or complaints, feel free to.
SwOrD TePeS hAs AsUnDeRed!!!!!!! | |
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