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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 5/24/2007 5:17:40 PM | OP, you say that there is a commandment in scripture for a man to take a woman to wife even if he is already married. Please state the book, chapter, and verse because I have already quoted 1 Corinthians 7:2 that "Each man should have own wife, and each woman her own husband." Husbands are not to be shared. I do not believe there is such a verse that actually states what you are claiming.
As far as God giving you personal instruction that doesn't apply to the rest of makind, I believe that is not correct. God's instructions are for all of His People--not just for some of them.
Nowhere in Scripture is plural marriage made a condition for salvation. Period! To say that it is is to grossly distort the Scripture and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I believe that the Bible is very clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9). Salvation is available for the married, the divorced, or the single person. The Apostle Paul was a eunuch for the sake of the Kingdom of God because of the daily pressures that came upon him to care for the church and the persecutions he faced. Marriage is not a necessary condition to conversion.
I also believe that Steve doesn't actually legally marry any of the other "sister/wives" because then he could face felony criminal charges for bigamy. What you, the OP, do is contract a common-law marriage with the sequential sister/wives so that they are not legally Steve's wives. Therefore, they are entitled to get welfare benefits when they bear children "outside of marriage" because there is no way he can support the family he wants to be the patriarch of. What you, OP, are forcing the "sister/wives" to do is to "live in sin" because Steve cannot and will not legally marry them in a ceremonial marriage that is recognized by the State lest he go to prison for bigamy. How is this pleasing to God?
I'm sorry to sound harsh, but I believe that you are deceiving yourselves when you say that Yahweh is revealing "new truth" to you. If it is new, it isn't true; if it is true, it isn't new. What the Bible does not say, it cannot mean. | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 5/24/2007 6:19:37 PM | Steve and Kara, may I have the scripture of which you speak so that I may read it as well? Granted, I am no Bible scholar, being a new Christian,
but I have never read such a verse.
And yes, I still stand on the principle that if Gods Word instructs it, His law is higher and one should disregard mans if the two do not agree....which I find quite interesting enough, that they usually do.... | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 5/24/2007 10:09:52 PM | And Can it Be,
You state
Nowhere in Scripture is plural marriage made a condition for salvation
We are a little confused by this statement, did we ever say this? If so you are correct that this is wrong thinking, we don't recall having said this, this would be a teaching of the former mormon church when they were still practicing polygamy. We are definitly not mormons not even the fundamentilist groups who still practice polygamy to help save souls.
We are just a couple of Jewish people who believe that all scripture from the beginning of Genesis all the way through to the book of Revelation is relevant to this very day. We believe that Yahweh wouldn't change, in fact we know this because He says so in scripture. Scripture is completly silent about the only way to be saved is to have more than one wife.
We are concerned with the fact that you think these women would be living in sin. Scripture also speaks nothing about state sanctioned marriage, did David have a marriage license to marry Abigail? Or Michal, Or Bathsheba, or any of his wives? Did Yahweh say in scripture that He gave David his wives and if he (David) had but asked Him for Bathsheba He would have given her also. All of the people in scripture did not marry with a state sanctioned marriage license and yet their marriages are blessed by Yahweh and they are not living in sin.
There are strict commandments which are part of the laws that Yahweh gave Moshe on Mt Sinai that state as follows : Exodus 21:10 If he take him another wife, her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish. This means that it would be sinful for Steve to take another wife and not be able to provide for her and the children. We would never do anything sinful and diminish anyone in this relationship.
We are both very confused about your quotation where you saw we are being revealed a new truth, this truth is found in scripture and is quite old in it's origins so old in fact that it speaks of it early on in scripture where Lamech is recorded to have taken two wives. Genesis 4:19.
We would like to encourage you to read this story entitled Journey into a Truth found at this website http://www.patriarchywebsite.com/inspirations/journey/index.htm , it's not a complete story but very interesting and it brings up a lot of the questions and answers them backed up with scripture we have studied it closely and studied scripture both in the King James Version as well as a more accurate copy of scripture which scholars have recently translated from Hebrew and Greek scriptures and have restored the true name of Yahweh rather than using the pagan names given Yahweh and His Son Yeshua by the roman catholic church which is steeped in paganistic beliefs even to the practice of necromancy.
We are just a simple couple who seeks Yahweh's truth with our whole heart and mind as it is commanded in scripture that we all do. We hope your journey will be as fruitful as ours was.
One last thought that we would ask that you consider prayerfully, if a person is divorced and then remarries are they not commiting adultery because Yahweh doesn't see the original marriage as broken?
As to the scripture where it is commanded the commandment can be found in Deuteronomy 25:5-10 If brothers dwell together, and one of them dies and has no son, the widow of the dead man shall not be married to a stranger outside the family; her husband's brother shall go in to her, take her as his wife, and perform the duty of a husband's brother to her. And it shall be that the firstborn son which she bears will succeed to the name of his dead brother, that his name may not be blotted out of Israel. But if the man does not want to take his brother's wife, then let his brother's wife go up to the gate to the elders, and say, "My husband's brother refuses to raise up a name to his brother in Israel; he will not perform the duty of my husband's brother." Then the elders of his city shall call him and speak to him. But if he stands firm and says, "I do not want to take her," then his brother's wife shall come to him in the presence of the elders, remove his sandal from his foot, spit in his face, and answer and say, "So shall it be done to the man who will not build up his brother's house." And his name shall be called in Israel, "The house of him who had his sandal removed."
This passage requires the living brother to marry his brother's wife, and there is absolutely no statement whatsoever in regards to the living brother's marital status. He could be single, or he could already be married. The passage says nothing either way. All that is said is,
If brothers dwell together, and one of them dies and has no son, the widow of the dead man shall not be married to a stranger outside the family; her husband's brother shall go in to her, take her as his wife, and perform the duty of a husband's brother to her.
If the living brother was already married, then we have here a command from God for a man to have a polygamous relationship. If the living brother was already married, in order to obey the Lord, the man would be required to have more than one wife. If he refused to do so, he would be spit in the face and bear reproach (Deuteronomy 25:9-10).
Steve & Kara | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 5/25/2007 6:58:35 AM | OP, you wrote and I responded to: "You are correct about what you state, however there is a commandment in scripture for a man to take a woman to wife even if he is already married, clearly man's law IS instructing us to disobey Yahweh's law."
Now you claim the verse in question is Deuteronomy 25:9-10. I believe this is a conditional duty as noted in verse 5: "If brothers DWELL TOGETHER, and one of them dies and has no son, the widow of the dead man shall not be married to a stranger outside the family; her husband's brother shall go in to her, take her as his wife, and perform the duty of a husband's brother to her" (NKJV).
This is called the law of levirate marriage, and the purpose of this law is to maintain property rights of the deceased's family line. I will grant that there were probably instances in which this law resulted in polygamy. However, this law has a very narrow application and does not apply to your situation unless Steve is married to his brother's widow and the two couples were living together prior to the death of Steve's brother. Barring that, the statute does not apply to Steve. (That is assuming Steve had a brother who was married, died without producing a son, and shared a residence with the OP.)
Nowhere in this passage does it say that the husband's brother is already married. In fact, the other places in Scripture that mention this situation speak of a brother who is so young that he could not possibly be married yet. In Genesis 38:8-11, Judah tells Tamar to remain a widow in in her father's house until his son Shelah is grown. Obviously Shelah is just a boy and is obviously unmarried.
Another instance of this situation is the relationship between Ruth and Boaz in the Book of Ruth. In Ruth 3:1-4, 12 Naomi tells Ruth that Boaz is her close relative who may perform his duty to her if there is no one else willing and able to do so. There is no indication that Boaz is already married.
OP, it seems to me that you are taking a very narrowly defined statute in the Old Testament designed to keep property within a family and using it to justify plural marriage. As I pointed out earlier, the ONLY WOMAN Steve is eligible to marry is the widow of any deceased brother he may have who died without producing a male heir. I believe that you are looking for other women to join your family who are not related to you by marriage.
You are taking one narrow statute and expanding it to justify your desire to plural marriage. How am I wrong that you are coming up with "new truth" calling it "new revelation" from Yahweh? I have shown you what this passage requires. That's it--it is a narrowly defined passage that doesn't go beyond a husband's brother. Your sister/wife polygamy is much more along the lines of the Mormon Church and it's offshoots no matter how you try to align yourselves with Judaism.
This is not a matter of obeying God or man because there is no mandate to take multiple wives even in this passage. The brother was free to refuse to take his deceased brother's widow and face open rebuke. It was not a matter of anything but personal shame. You are obviously Messianic Jews. You must therefore acknowledge the teaching of the New Testament regarding the civil authorities (Romans 13:6-7; Titus 3:1; 1 Peter 2:13-14, 16; Romans 13:1). Plural marriage is against the law in every State of the Union.
As far as David's marriages go, yes he married Abigail and the others. However he was a king. Look at the fruit of the plural marriages. His children were at each others' throats. He was a man of blood, and God did not allow him to build the Temple.
You live in a society that has outlawed plural marriage. You must obey that law or face imprisonment. If you seek to legalize plural marriages by having them recorded with the County Clerk, you will risk criminal charges for bigamy, and the plural marriages are null and void. This means that the sister/wives are "living in sin" in the eyes of outsiders.
I believe that even creation itself teaches that marriage is a union of one man and one woman. You will note that God Himself married Adam and Eve. God did not provide mutliple wives for Adam. It speaks of two being one flesh--not multitudes being one flesh. | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 5/25/2007 8:02:28 PM | We can understand and respect your beliefs and hope that you can also respect our beliefs. There are more commandments than just the one about the brother and we'll just have to end this by agreeing to dissagree.
Steve & Kara | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 5/26/2007 10:06:34 AM | My friend at work gets fussed at all the time by the ladies here at work, and he says, "It's like having five wives!"
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 5/26/2007 10:29:08 AM |
The bible says God winks at our times of ignorance. God says we should have only one wife/husband
1 Timothy 3:2
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1 Timothy 3:12
Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
Titus 1:6
If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
This should do, there are more scriptures if needed.
Those rules apply only to bishops and deacons.
Michael | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 5/26/2007 10:30:20 AM |
The world considers this to be immoral, illegal, and just wrong.
Really?
I guess all that advocacy of alternative lifestyles is not changing world opinion.
Michael | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 5/26/2007 10:46:05 AM | Steve and Kara, Ive read the scriptures you provided. (Thank you)
From my understanding, unless you are going to marry your brothers widow, and I doubt it, than Im sorry but Gods Law hasn't released you from mans law. Sorry. | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 5/27/2007 8:48:47 PM | We can understand your dilemma, we just ran across an article that is way more indepth, it touches on the scriptures. We have completely read the scriptures in this article and tested to make sure they are correct and find this article to be completely comprehensive and answers all questions and arguments. it can be found here.
http://home.sprynet.com/~jbwwhite/ifBW.html
It is a fairly long article and took us about an hour to read and test by scripture.
Kara & Steve | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 5/27/2007 10:46:44 PM | We can understand your dilemma
I'm not the one that has one.
We ran across this artical
I dont believe "articals" are the Word of God nor are they a place to look for God's law.
~ I ask that you consider that even in the remote possibility that you are correct and everyone else is wrong, that by doing or attempting to do this, you are offending many who will never look to you as possible witnesses for God. If for no other reason, you should consider that your witness is more important than Steve's err...phsical desires. | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 5/28/2007 5:25:06 AM | Conspiracy: It did not take me an hour to test that article by Scripture because I recognize scripture twisting when I see it!
I believe that there is a very simple precept that governs this whole debate as is stated in Matthew 19:8, "Jesus replied, 'Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning" (NIV). I will argue that it was God's will from Creation that marriage be between ONE man and ONE woman, and that polyamy/polygyny was only permitted because of the hardness of man's heart.
The issue I would like you to address is: If it is truly God's will for marriage to involve one man and multiple wives, why did God only create one wife, Eve, for Adam considering that He gave the command, "Be fruitful and multiple and replenish the earth"? It would have been much more profitable for Adam to have had multiple wives so that the earth could have been filled with people quickly. After all, Adam could have sired multiple children in the time it took Eve to bear Abel. But God only gave Adam one wife--Eve. WHY?
I also don't find any record of polygyny before the flood. Could this be because God's Will was clear that marriage was to be between one man and one woman?
Moving on to this article: Why does God present Himself as a bigamist? He doesnt!  The writer is twisting Scripture to suit his own agenda.
When God made a covenant with Israel at Mt. Sinai it was a type of marriage. I am not going to give you all the scriptures to back this up. After Solomon died, the Kingdom was divided into two Kingdoms--the Northern Kingdom of Israel (ten tribes) and the Southern Kingdom of Judah (two tribes plus the Levites). In Ezekiel 23 when God is talking about Samaria--the capital of the Kingdom of Israel, and Jerusalem--the capital of the Kingdom of Judah, committing adultery, He is talking about them going after false gods and worshipping the idols of the nations round about Israel. This is a constant theme through the Old Testament. Israel and/or Judah played the whore by going after false idols and rejecting the Living God. That is why the Northern House of Israel went into captivity to Assyria; the Southern House of Judah was taken into captivity to Babylon at a later date. It was for false worship, which is always called spiritual adultery that caused God to punish the people by taking them out of their land and into captivity. God divorced Israel and Judah symbolically for their spiritual whoredoms!
Now this author claims that the parable of the Ten Virgins is a polygamist's dream come true. Honestly, how can people so misunderstand the Scripture? It simply boggles the mind that this is taken seriously! This parable is so CLEAR that I am ALMOST rendered speechless having to deal with it from the point of view of polygyny! The point of this parable is that there were ten virgins waiting for their bridgegroom. Five of them were wise and prepared while five of them were foolish and did not prepare for their upcoming marriage. When the bridegroom came suddenly, the foolish virgins, were not allowed to go in to the marriage. It is about being PREPARED.
Why does Paul use the concept of polygamy to describe the Corinthians' relationship to Christ? He quotes 2 Corinthians 11:2 "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy for I have espoused you to one husband that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ." The author claims that "you" in this sentence is plural.
How many churches is Christ engaged to marry? ONE! "For the husband is head of the wife as also Christ is head of THE church; and He is the Savior of the body....Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for HER [singular!], that He might sanctify and cleanse HER with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish" (Ephesians 5:23, 25-27 NKJV). Please note that the church is presented in the feminine singular tense. If it were in the feminine plural tense, it would say, "they, them, their."
Christ is betrothed to THE CHURCH as a unit. This is not a polygamous relationship because no one will marry Christ unless he/she is a member of the Church. Christ will marry THE CHURCH--ONE CHURCH as a body. I disagree that this implies polygamy on the part of God.
"Why is the Scripture definition and usage of the term 'adultery' one-sided, and not egalitarian, i.e. 'adultery' = 'a married woman engaging in sexual intercourse with a man other than her husband'? This is truly rich! I am just dumbfounded at the level of self-deception this statement represents. Are men incapable of committing adultery? What about Jesus' statement in the Sermon on the Mount that a man commits adultery when he looks at a woman lustfully?
God's laws of sexual purity apply to both sexes equally and are very comprehensive. I suggest that the you get a copy of the Westminster Larger Catechism and study questions 137, 138, and 139. You will find it most enlightening regarding the duties and prohibitions annexed to the Seventh Commandment.
I am not going to go through the rest of this article as it is a misrepresentation of what Scripture truly teaches. It in no way justifies your position. You are back to wanting to lure young women into an illegal and immoral relationship.
By the way, at the end of his life, King David put away all of his wives except Bathsheba. Why?
The Bible repeatedly tells us that Solomon's multiple wives turned his heart away from God. That is an evil fruit of polygamy in my opinion.
The Jewish people in general did not and do not to this day practice polygamy. What makes you think that you are wiser than everyone else? | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 5/28/2007 5:46:07 AM | Hey, this gives me a thought!!! Since there are so many instances in the Bible of feast after feast, the Rich Mans Table, Etc... This obviously means that I should be the glutton that I've always wanted to be!!! Wow, I am so glad that the OP shared their style of reasoning with me; now I can live my life like I've always wanted!
I hear folks say that gluttony is a sin, but for some reason I just can't see it, Lol! Anyway, doesn't the Bible say, "Eat, drink and be merry!"???
WAIT A MINUTE!!! MAYBE I SHOULD START DRINKING TOO!!! This just gets better and better!
Hey Kara, the lady at the well had how many husbands? I think you're hot!!! How about looking at me as a possible brother husband? | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 5/28/2007 5:54:59 AM | OP, you were trying to argue that Deuteronomy 25:9-10 is a command to take your brother's wife.
What about Mark 6:18, "For John had been saying to Herod, It is not lawful for you to have your brother's wife" (NIV). As I'm sure you recall, John the Baptist was subsequently executed for his unpopular stand against Herod's incestuous marriage.
I'm sure you also recall that Jesus said that of those born of woman there was none greater than John the Baptist.
Obviously taking the brother's wife to do the duty of a brother in raising up heirs for the deceased brother has a very narrow application as I explained to you earlier. This is not a statute that justifies polygyny in any circumstances.
Again I ask: If polygamy was God's will, why was it not widely practiced by the Jews at the time of Christ? | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 5/28/2007 11:08:27 AM | Matt,
Thanks for the compliment, you are if you are a believer in Yahshua already my brother, and since I already have a husband I can no longer have any other husband until I am widowed. I personally don't see that happening any time soon so I must respectfully decline your lovely proposal.
Kara | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 5/28/2007 1:45:57 PM | You're welcome Kara, but why can't you have another husband?
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 10/7/2008 1:20:20 AM | Ben Frankin is certainly a hero of mine, but if that was his argument again polygamy, he was misinterpreting the Bible, Matthew 6:24 "No man can serve two masters." This has nothing to do with with polygamy. Rather, it is literally saying, "No man can serve two masters." (split allegiances) What does the Bible ACTUALLY say about polygamy? Clearly, according to the Bible, God ENCOURAGED and rewarded it with some of the most notable characters within the Bible:
1. Lamech – had 2 wives, Adah and Zillah(mother of Tubal-cain) Genesis 4:19
2. Abram (Abraham) – his wife, Sarai, offered her handmaid, Hagar to Abram. Genesis 16:2
3. Jacob - wives Leah and Rachel (sisters). Rachel also offered her maid, Bilhah Genesis 29:28, 30:4
4. Esau – wives Adah, Aholibamah, Bashemath Genesis 36:2
5. Solomon – 700 wives, 300 concubines I Kings 11:3 | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 10/7/2008 4:31:28 PM | | The main argument against polygamy in United Sates Law is a court decision. It is invalidated by Homosexual marriage. | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 10/14/2008 10:26:01 PM | | Over and over God says that it should be one male and one female. The having more then one is not a blessing it is never seen as a blessing it is always a show of greed. | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 10/15/2008 4:51:53 AM | ^^^^^^^
Over and over God says that it should be one male and one female. The having more then one is not a blessing it is never seen as a blessing it is always a show of greed.
That is an interesting point of view.....but that is merely one of many points of view. Naturally, those who believe in Allah, may find some disagreement with those who believe in Yaweh / Jehova etc etc. concerning monogamy. Some animists have found polygyny and polyandry very workable solutions to the issue of marriage and kinship in their respective societies, and their gods didn't have any issue with it, except when local kinship taboos were contravened.
In some Australian tribal societies, polygamy was an essential requirement for survival of the clan and tribe as it was for individuals within those groupings....The introduction of monogamy ( promoted by goody goody "well intentioned" proselytising missionaries) resulted in the destruction of traditional tribal structures with disasterous outcomes for aborigines.
I recommend to you a study of the following ethnography of the Australian Tiwi Aboriginals
The Tiwi of North Australia (Case Studies in Cultural Anthropology) (Paperback)
by Charles William Merton Hart (Author), Arnold R. Pilling (Author), Jane C. Goodale (Author)
Whether or not polygamy may be seen as a blessing is an arguable point, but for some societies.....it is a necessity. | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 10/15/2008 7:15:54 AM | I always have a problem with those who wish to speak for God. Of course, I appreciate reputable cites, and footnotes on the documentation. I like to take into account some scrolls which were written a few millenia ago, but I have to make sure they were translated correctly since they were not written in my native tongue.
I haven't heard much from him lately. Do you have his email address so we can ask him personally? | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 10/19/2008 7:13:52 PM | Wrong Allah said it is best to have one woman. El said one woman one man. Jesus said one woman one man. Nearly every holy book and myth says the plan for a good life is one woman one man. The gov' has stats to back up the fact that one man one woman til death is the best for health, wealth, and peace.
Polgamy is not ever seen as ideal. Survival, protection, "hardness of heart", "relief from the 7 year itch", and "because s/he was rich enough to" are all reasons given. | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 10/19/2008 9:58:01 PM | I just love those pick and choose religions. How many wives and concubines did David or Solomon have?
It really is about economics, survival, and enhancing the genetics of future generations. If people keep peeing in the gene pool, we are going to end up devolving into apes. If that doesn't prove evolution to the skeptics, nothing will. | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 10/20/2008 12:52:03 AM | And Can It Be,
One question about Herod having taken his brother's wife, was his brother still alive? We and many scholars believe this was the case, she was not a widow, this was pure de adultery and totally sinful and wrong.
Steve & Kara | |
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| Biblical Polygyny
Posted: 10/20/2008 2:29:22 AM | Conspiracy,
I realize that understanding this issue would help others to resolve their thoughts and complications with acceptance of religions, beliefs, and philosophies. Seriously, is it that important in anyones actual existence? Does it affect any current issues? Why do you attempt to remove the speck from someone elses eye?
Is it not possible in your eye to love your husband and your children? Is it not possible to love them and your parents as well? What are the limits of love? Would Herod's experience affect your ability to love?
Know these answers, and you will find your own.
Faithfulness; to me, starts with honesty.
Fidelity can be changed before, but not after. Honesty can be changed at any time. Trust is changed when honesty lags. | |
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