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| Female Pastors/Preachers: Sinning against God???
Posted: 11/27/2005 8:19:08 PM | | Who is picking on sweet treat?, and what is it with essaress?? I just mentioned surprise at him not knowing the relevant scripture, not a blast at him.. People seem to be a little touchy around here.. | |
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| Female Pastors/Preachers: Sinning against God???
Posted: 11/27/2005 8:28:38 PM | Christian_guy check out post #20...that is the post being referred to about picking on me. Again, someone coming into a thread, not even discussing it and making a personal attack on me for no reason. They weren't talking about you  | |
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| Female Pastors/Preachers: Sinning against God???
Posted: 11/28/2005 12:39:41 AM |
Who is picking on sweet treat?
I'm back from the holidays, so better be no one now... *cracks his knuckles* 
I guess it depends on if you think the voice of Paul is the voice of God.
IMHO, for the most part, absolutely not! Especially not knowing Jesus when he was alive... just kinda jumpin on the wagon & I think for the most part he missed the point entirely. But once again, that's my opinion.
I am always reluctant to respond to these types of questions becauise I dont like dealing with hateful quote-tossers who are clearly getting some kind of personal kick out of attacking another person...
Grrrrr again..is this an "open to interpretation by whoever reads it" kinda verse?
It's a blessing & a curse, but all verses are "open to interpretation". So, I guess that's a yes
As far as the original question goes, I don't believe they're any more sinning against God by preaching than a male. Any who are called by God should heed the call, if that's what they want to do. You know my feelings on the Bible by now. But in short, I'm sure (though it is still my opinion, for argument's sake) that the Bible was "selectively edited". So, I believe that the "only males" parts of the Bible don't exist in God's Word. Men & women are only different in God's eyes by body parts. | |
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| Female Pastors/Preachers: Sinning against God???
Posted: 11/28/2005 2:04:10 PM |
I'm back from the holidays, so better be no one now... *cracks his knuckles*
LOL 
Men & women are only different in God's eyes by body parts
I'd have to agree....kind of hard to think that God would disallow women to preach his gospel. | |
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| Female Pastors/Preachers: Sinning against God???
Posted: 11/28/2005 10:23:47 PM | Back to the original question, I have no idea how other christian churches view female pastors, except that those WITH female pastors obviously don't think it's a sin! But then, what IS a sin? Does anyone know the definition of sin?
There is a definition in the Catholic Church. Check the Catechism of the Catholic Church (a book that lists all the beliefs of the Catholic Church and the reasons for them), go to Chapter One, Article Eight, Section IV, Clause 1857, it states:
"For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent." "
The subsequent clauses define each of these conditions. A grave matter is anything specified by the Ten Commandments. Full knowledge means you are aware that this act contravenes God's law. Deliberate consent should be fairly self explanatory.
Clause 1862 then defines a "venial" sin. This sin also involves a grave matter but without full knowledge or without deliberate consent. (or perhaps without both)
So, are female pastors in a state of mortal or venial sin? Well, if they're not Catholics, I guess I can't use the Catholic definition of sin. I don't know if I can answer the question in that case. And besides, at worst, it would be a venial sin because non-Catholics wouldn't have full knowledge or deliberate consent.
Regarding the issue of some women saying that they feel "called" to the Priesthood, that doesn't mean they actually were called. Theological Colleges do not automatically hand out a priesthood to everyone who walks through the doors. It turns out that many men have a calling to a special spiritual life (perhaps in a third order or as a Deacon) but not to the priesthood.
BTW: If you're interested in knowing what the Catholic Church teaches, you can find the entire Catechism on-line. Here's one site:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm
I think you'll see from the table of contents that the document is quite comprehensive. | |
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| Female Pastors/Preachers: Sinning against God???
Posted: 10/22/2009 11:36:37 PM |
I'm curious, considering the Bible states that a woman should not be at the Pulpit and it is in direct violation of the Bible.... does that mean that every female Pastor or Minister is directly sinning against God?
Exodus 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
So people that work Sundays are supposed to be executed.
Leviticus 19:27 " 'Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.
Leviticus 19:28 " 'Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD.
Leviticu 19:19 " 'Keep my decrees.
" 'Do not mate different kinds of animals.
" 'Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.
" 'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.
Seems like we continually sin directly against god. | |
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| Female Pastors/Preachers: Sinning against God???
Posted: 10/23/2009 5:10:06 PM | Exodus 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
The Sabbath begins at sunset on Fridays and ends at sunset on Saturdays.
We as christians are under the new covenant found in the Book of Hebrews. If man could obtain righteousness under mosaic law, Jesus would not been sacrificed as an atonement. | |
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| Female Pastors/Preachers: Sinning against God???
Posted: 10/23/2009 7:24:22 PM |
As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
1 Corinthians 14:33-35
* the Law was specifically for the Jews........the NT itself frees us from many legalistic dictates!
* I know some say we should disregard the OT entirely
Nonsense:
“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.
All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)
Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)
I can go on if you'd like...
Grrrrr again..is this an "open to interpretation by whoever reads it" kinda verse?
What's to interpret? Seems VERY clear to me: “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent” (1 Timothy 2:11-12) | |
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| Female Pastors/Preachers: Sinning against God???
Posted: 10/23/2009 7:37:07 PM | | NerdStatus, are you familiar with the new covenant? The law reflects Gods ideal but no person can keep those laws. I often think God gave the laws to mankind NOT to condemn him but to show mankind how much they need mercy and forgiveness. Paul teaches this quite well in the epistles. | |
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| Female Pastors/Preachers: Sinning against God???
Posted: 10/23/2009 11:23:27 PM |
We as christians are under the new covenant found in the Book of Hebrews. If man could obtain righteousness under mosaic law, Jesus would not been sacrificed as an atonement.
I thought this would come up. OK I'm not a Bible scholar; what is in the New Testament re: female pastors/preachers?
Exodus 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
The Sabbath begins at sunset on Fridays and ends at sunset on Saturdays.
Ok so put them to death for working Friday night or Saturday, not Sunday  | |
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| Female Pastors/Preachers: Sinning against God???
Posted: 10/24/2009 12:11:06 AM |
NerdStatus, are you familiar with the new covenant? The law reflects Gods ideal but no person can keep those laws. I often think God gave the laws to mankind NOT to condemn him but to show mankind how much they need mercy and forgiveness. Paul teaches this quite well in the epistles.
I'm afraid I don't understand. Was Jesus wrong about the Law remaining in effect until heaven and earth pass away? Did Jesus not understand the implications of the New Covenant? Does what Paul says trump what Jesus says? This is all very confusing! | |
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| Female Pastors/Preachers: Sinning against God???
Posted: 10/25/2009 3:25:41 AM |
NerdStatus, are you familiar with the new covenant?
Yes. See Msg: 36, where I cited canon - Jesus himself - acknowledges the old laws are to be followed.
Food for thought:
Which one of the 12 apostles was a woman? When did God send his daughter down to earth? Which gender was effectively blamed for original sin? Which books / chapters in the bible were penned by women? Which woman did God choose to lead his people? Which gender is instructed to be submissive to the other gender? In the holy trinity, which is the female gender? Which gender is created in God's image? Which gender is not created in God's image, but created from a rib as a companion? What passage in the bible describes women as being equal to man? What gender has God always put in charge? | |
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| Female Pastors/Preachers: Sinning against God???
Posted: 10/25/2009 9:00:32 AM |
Which books / chapters in the bible were penned by women?
Well, guess we'll never know, since the Bible ( as we get it now) was written so long after the events were supposedto have happened, then collected & edited into their current form. Guess any gospels that may have been written by women were deemed unnecessry & excluded.
Which gender is instructed to be submissive to the other gender?
Is this in the old or the new testament? If it's in the old, then if you're a Christian you should be going by what the new testament says about which gender should be submissive to which ( and as you implied earlier, the bible was writen by men; guess they wouldn't mind inserting their own bias into the book).
Which gender is created in God's image?
So God is around 6' tall, has a torso, 2 arms 2 legs & a head? Or perhaps "in His image" means we were endowed with intelligence.....
What gender has God always put in charge?
"Always" ? Dunno about you, but I haven't heard the voice of God booming down from the heavens telling us who should be in charge...
.. and if, as you say, God has always put the men in charge, I guess we know why the world is now in the shape it's in | |
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| Female Pastors/Preachers: Sinning against God???
Posted: 10/25/2009 2:03:28 PM | Gal 2 :11 - Gal 2 :21 The last verses reads "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness [comes] through the law, then Christ died in vain." .
The law will never pass away but grace will abound for those of faith. | |
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| Female Pastors/Preachers: Sinning against God???
Posted: 10/25/2009 5:05:54 PM | Where in that verse does it state "the law" is completely negated?
Answer = nowhere
Where does it negate the passages I posted?
Answer = nowhere
Jesus himself couldn't be any more clear on this issue. OT law is valid for all eternity:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place."
Matthew 5:17 NAB | |
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| Female Pastors/Preachers: Sinning against God???
Posted: 10/25/2009 5:16:23 PM | | Right! the law is not void. The laws were given to the hebrews and not the gentiles. If I try to obtain righteousness by keeping the laws I would fail and I hate the idea of sacrificing a sheep or a goat. lol! You really do not understand grace I suppose. | |
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| Female Pastors/Preachers: Sinning against God???
Posted: 10/25/2009 5:36:26 PM |
Well...I'm curious, considering the Bible states that a woman should not be at the Pulpit and it is in direct violation of the Bible.... does that mean that every female Pastor or Minister is directly sinning against God? And furthermore, what about those that say "God has called me to the ministry", does that mean they are delusional? I really can't recall seeing anything in the OT that specifically said that a woman cannot preach to the people. I think that a lot of traditional religious services have developed over the years, and so men in the pulpit works. But no-one has really had women there for many years. So it will take a long time for services to adjust to the long-time consequences of having a unisex pulpit.
For instance, what happens if the minister is very attractive? What happens if a blonde bombshell wants to be a religious minister? How will women feel when all their men go to church, but only to stare at her. I think they'd all feel very put out, that their men would rather look at the minister than them. How would such a minister feel to know that the men aren't listening to her, and the women are too angry at her to ever do what she preaches? Also, how would a woman feel if she is a minister that none of the men are interested in listening to, just because she isn't attractive to them? Her male counterparts might be not paid attention to just as much. But she might not realise that she's not interesting. She might get the hump, and feel that she's being discriminated against, just because she's not so pretty. What happens if a woman minister says some things only because she's on PMT, and she would never say them normally, but doesn't even remember what she said under the influence of hormones?
There are plenty of issues with having female ministers. But there has to be a certain amount of realisation that things have to be worked out, before they will work. In the meantime, just sticking women in the pulpit and hoping for the best, is a bit unrealistic, because with no responsibility, men and women tend to just take things to extremes that lead to often horrific consequences. There's no point causing huge problems without any sort of consideration and compromise to minimise them.
But, as long as women are willing to compromise and work out with men on how they could be introduced into the clergy with minimal damage to the overall system, I welcome them. | |
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| Female Pastors/Preachers: Sinning against God???
Posted: 10/25/2009 7:07:18 PM |
Right! the law is not void. The laws were given to the hebrews and not the gentiles.
This is an interesting point. If the Law was given to the Hebrews, not Gentiles, then why do Christians point to Leviticus when they want to explain that homosexuality is a sin? | |
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| Female Pastors/Preachers: Sinning against God???
Posted: 10/26/2009 12:35:39 AM |
then why do Christians point to Leviticus when they want to explain that homosexuality is a sin?
I've asked the same question numerous times, and suggested the person using that chapter & verse should be calling themself a Leviticusian, not a Christian
Just another example of narrow minded people cherrypicking verses from the Bible to support their own views instead of taking the book as a whole.
If they want to quote Leviticus as their justification for being anti homosexual, then they better be sacrificing according to Leviticus & following all the other rules/judgements in Leviticus. | |
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| Female Pastors/Preachers: Sinning against God???
Posted: 10/26/2009 6:53:30 AM | Abby, nice try, but some folk will try to obfuscate the truth rather than accept its simplicity.
For those of you who would rather live under the Law of Moses, God has a special place for you; since the Law was set in place to 1) point out our sinful nature (we are unable on our own to keep the law 100%) and 2) point out our need for a savior. Jesus came to us in fulfillment of the Law, and through His death and subsequent RESURRECTION (His death without resurrection is meaningless, since man has always died) provided us with a direct conduit to the Father.
So, while the Law has not been invalidated, only a fool would place himself or herself under its authority. Yes, I could try to fulfill the Law, I could offer sacrifice after sacrifice, obey all the commandments, etc., but in the end I would still be as guilty as when I started. For if I am guilty of one infraction of the Law, I am guilty of the whole Law. Rather, I prefer to grab the gold ring God provided in the person of Jesus, and get my travel papers to Home.
I've always been amazed at the simplicity of salvation. I'm the one who wants eternal life, WHAT DO I HAVE TO DO?, and yet I don't / didn't have to do anything, it was done for me. This goes to the Word explaining that we must become as little children; trusting, obedient. I have to give up me arrogance, pride, and accept that there isn't one thing that I can do to attain Heaven on my own.
TK
{washed in the blood; which in itself is a strange concept, for now my garments are as white as snow? Well, as a little child I shall believe} | |
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| Female Pastors/Preachers: Sinning against God???
Posted: 10/26/2009 7:02:40 AM | As for the original question: female pastors. The way it was explained, once, to me, is that while there was a tradition (still is a tradition) about women not teaching men in synagogue (and in some traditions, men and women are separated) Paul in his letter was speaking to a specific group about a specific problem.
I don't know if this stricture should be obeyed strictly today, or if at all. Sometimes, either way is a little odd. For instance in my house of worship, and the entire denomination, doesn't have women as preachers. But women are in many positions of authority within the church and my current Sunday School class is being led by a woman. As have several classes in the past (ergo, a woman in a position of authority over a man, being taught at the same table/group with a man, etc.).
TK
{blessed by the numerous women God has placed in my life through whom I've learned} | |
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| Female Pastors/Preachers: Sinning against God???
Posted: 10/26/2009 2:18:04 PM |
Right! the law is not void. The laws were given to the hebrews and not the gentiles.
Explain this better. It sounds like you're saying something like: The law is still valid, but not for gentiles". Are you trying to say you're not obligated to follow any of the OT? The ten commandments no longer apply?
Paul in his letter was speaking to a specific group about a specific problem.
1) Please point out the verse that tells us Paul is sonly talking about a select small group of women, and not all women in churches.
2) Please explain to me why instructions for a select group of women, and not all women, are in the bible.
3) Please explain why parallel verses exist across several chapters if this is only supposed to apply to a specific group of women.
4) Why does he say to be under obedience as also saith the law? Sounds like he's referring to canon law to me.
1Cor.14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1 Timothy 2 NIV
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
Reading the context of 1 Timothy, it's a letter about conduct in the church. It's not not arbitrary. Paul's comments were not only intended for the circumstances at Corinth, it's instructions for churches in general, and talks about God's design for humanity. Genesis 2:20-25 - from the very beginning of humanity, woman was designed to be a helpmate to man (Genesis 2:20-25).
We are dealing with a command of the Lord, not Paul's personal bias. As Paul makes clear in succeeding verses:
1 Cor. 14
36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? 37 zIf anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
women rulers were seen as a sign of judgment. The prophet Isaiah lamented, “O My people! Their oppressors are children, and women rule over them” (Isaiah 3:12). Isaiah is saying that women were considered ill-suited for leadership of the nation of Israel
http://www.gotquestions.org/woman-president.html
Leadership in the church and family, is given to men alone. | |
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