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Posted: 1/6/2005 2:41:27 AM | Dmt, no i wasnt offended it at all!!
My post was completely generalised, so i apologise! But i was replying more to the title and original post, which were also completely generalised, perhaps you should change your title to - if mushrooms, lsd, mescaline, salvia divinorum, ayahuasca, 2cb, dmt, yopo, etc etc are so bad then why? rather than the blanket term drugs?! ;-)
Drugs do alter the destination that you get to, your brain works in a completley different way when you've been taking drug of any kind including alcohol, and they may start naturally but by the time they get to a majority of the people that are taking them, they have been altered from their original natural state.
I agree that taking drugs for some people can be an amazing experience, especially the ones that you have mentioned that are not physically addictive, my point is merely that it is not that way for all people and whilst in my opinion there is too much criticsm of drugs such as marijuana, mushrooms etc society has to be very careful of where it draws the line on what is and isnt harmful. As for ecstasy having known three people to have died from taking it i am slightly biased on that subject. The main difference between sausages/ bacon and illegal drugs is if you get damaged by a random sausage or piece of bacon then someone is held responsible. If you are killed through an adverse affect to an illegal drug, who is held responsible? Since we are not making indistinct statements, could you please recommend what you think a sensible dose of MDMA is, obviously taking into account, the body weight, tolerance levels, and general physical health and mental state of the user. You are also not guaranteeing that a person will have a good trip, some people arent left feeling free and enlightened, they are left feeling depressed and scared, there are rehabilitation centres with people who are still suffering the effects of bad trips!
You can set yourself free in a variety of different ways, please don't tell me that you are so narrowminded that you believe that taking drugs is the only way to set yourself free, because that makes you no better than someone telling me im going to go to hell if i dont go to confession ( and i am not digging at people with religious beliefs here, i respect your opinions, i just dont quite agree with them all!). Meditation etc can also provide you with enlightenment and 'set you free' without any of the risks.
The reason entheogens and drugs in general are dangerous is because they are not properly controlled, it almost impossible to predict someones reaction and there has been no real investigations into the long term side effect of taking these on a regular basis, since a lot of drugs have a cumulative affect, i dont believe that at this time people can make a truly informed decision.If the drugs you have specified were made legal they would be more expensive and have more limitations put on them not to mention government tax, which would mean people still went to the black market to buy possibly artificial or contaminated versions.
( I apologise for any spelling errors, grammatical errors or missed words, i've actually been given work to do today! So typing has had to be fast but unfortunately my mind works faster than my fingers!) | |
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Posted: 1/6/2005 7:40:19 AM | If you are killed through an adverse affect to an illegal drug, who is held responsible? Since we are not making indistinct statements, could you please recommend what you think a sensible dose of MDMA is, obviously taking into account, the body weight, tolerance levels, and general physical health and mental state of the user. You are also not guaranteeing that a person will have a good trip, some people arent left feeling free and enlightened, they are left feeling depressed and scared, there are rehabilitation centres with people who are still suffering the effects of bad trips!
No one should be held responsible except the person who ingested the drug.If MDMA were made legal for therapeutic sessions,then the subject taking it would be required to sign a waiver of responsibility as is now being done with every drug dispensed by medical professionals.There is no guarantee that any drug a doctor dispenses will not harm you.In fact I know a neurosurgeon who had a 14 year old boy who was ecperiencing pain in his extemities.An exam revealed the boy was suffering growing pains so the doc suggested aspirin.The boy had never taken aspirin or any other drug for that matter and so there was no record of what it may or may not do to him.It turned out that he had a severe allergy to aspirin and suffered a condition similar to the flesh eating virus where his flesh was literally eaten off of him.He succumbed.
The bottom line.You ingest something,you become informed first and decide whether or not to ingest.Responsibility is yours. | |
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Posted: 1/6/2005 7:50:50 AM | | But if that boy had become ill because a pharmaceutical company had not tested it's product thoroughly enough, or sells a drug that is contaminated, or if a doctor adminsters the wrong dosage then they are held legally responsible (at least here in the UK they are), you dont have that with an illegal substance | |
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Posted: 1/6/2005 8:42:41 AM | When it comes to good trips vs bad, from the beginning of documented experimentation it has been shown (Tim Leary, Ram Das, Richard Alpert, et al) that trips made under safe, controlled situations hardly ever result in bad trips. It is important, especially in the first few trips, that you have people there you trust, a period of time where you can 'ride' the trip, i.e. that you feel safe to relax and enjoy the ride.
If you are someplace where you are not comfortable, with people you don't know well, it increases the chance that you will become fearful and freak, i.e a bad trip.
Now, as to frequency; while a few trips (5-20) over a period of time with enough time between to absorb the experience can be life-enriching, if you use it often it becomes your life which is not good. It's the effects on regular conciousness that are good, not to always be in an altered state. Even Richard Alpert and Aldous Huxley said after a while that you encounter the law of diminishing returns.
I am not advocating that you should run out and try these drugs, but if you do, try to plan ahead and be with friends who will stay through the trip, have good music present (calm is usually better) and don't have places to go and things to do. Use the experience to the fullest.
Last comment, especially to Bells, use as I have described above can enlighten your mind, the experience is real (not fake). Just because a journey is inside your mind doesn't mean it is not real (see born-again folks), most folks who do this come back as changed individuals who are better friends, neighbors and countrymen (ok, I stole that).
Richard Alpert talked about the Army experiments, and said the first thing the troops did when they came down was want out of the Army, mostly because they felt much closer to mankind as a whole, and desired no conflict.
Anyway, just my $0.02 worth. Peace. | |
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DMT
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Joined: 12/3/2004
Msg: 54 | |
| magical substances
Posted: 1/6/2005 11:11:25 AM | I aggree with Maj Mike, there journeys are real. It is possible to enter dimensions of reality where beings who understand us better than we do them exsits, and these entities can interact with our bodies and minds, and this can have long term affects on our health and functioning. I have met quite a few people who just took some acid, e and mushrooms when they were younger and allowed their fear to prevent them from going any further. Those I know who have gone right into those other dimensions and explored shamanic states of consciousness have, without exception, become very warm, insightful and bright people. The only substance that I know of that people have bravely experienced and been overwhelmed and damaged by is datura. People talk of the plant being like an evil spirit that tries to kill you and steal your soul. I can't speak about that from experience, but I accept that substances are not always good just becuase they are natural and psychoactive or entheogenic. Perhaps, just as there are different sorts of people, shamans and sorcerers, there could be the plant equivelent of sorcerers and witches?
Bells said some really interesting things and posed a question that I would like to address:
The main difference between sausages/ bacon and illegal drugs is if you get damaged by a random sausage or piece of bacon then someone is held responsible. If you are killed through an adverse affect to an illegal drug, who is held responsible? Since we are not making indistinct statements, could you please recommend what you think a sensible dose of MDMA is, obviously taking into account, the body weight, tolerance levels, and general physical health and mental state of the user. Well, Shulgin was the man who redicovered this after it was forgotten for decades, and published the formula for it along with those of substances that he discovered (e.g. 2cb, 2ci etc), became very concerned with how young people in clubs started to use it. He regarded it as something to aid meditation, using small doses. I'm not sure what Sasha Shulgin's favoured dose is but I know that the monks who were using it for meditation were using between 40-60mg. I have raarely used it in recent years, since I saw an evening when 4 or 5 people died in a hot club near London bridge - they all were on pills which were pure mdma and not excessively high dose. My concern about it used in social settings is that it is hard to control all of the factors that might make it more risky. For example, heat and loud music are known to make it more likely to be damaging. Personally, I found that 2cb and other one's in that category seemed preferable. As deriviatives of mescaline that feel organic and healthy, they move your consciousness forward each time, whereas with e most people find that it only takes you so far. Also with the 2ce, 2cb, 2ci etc you can close your eyes and have some extraorniary visions. Generally the experience is much more spiritual that mdma is. You can set yourself free in a variety of different ways, please don't tell me that you are so narrowminded that you believe that taking drugs is the only way to set yourself free, because that makes you no better than someone telling me im going to go to hell if i dont go to confession ( and i am not digging at people with religious beliefs here, i respect your opinions, i just dont quite agree with them all!). Meditation etc can also provide you with enlightenment and 'set you free' without any of the risks.
I aggree that meditation, drumming, tantric sex, massage, etc etc can all set you free. However, I would argue that the experiences can be more subtle and shorter acting that some substance experiences for many people. I don't want to be seen to advocate substance use, (and of course I only ever take things in countries where particular things are legal) but if used wisely some things (especially tryptamines like ayahuasca and certain mushrooms, and smokable dmt) can take you to some places where there is no longer any uncertainty about your own immortality or the wisdom and grace of the cosmos, in all it's different forms. Those other things can give you a glimse, or a sense of the otherworld, and, while there are people (eg. William Blake) who just could come and go between those dimensions, most people using meditation and tantra aren't REALLY' trying to access the shamanic states of awareness, and conseuquently few get there for long enough to learn how to function their and learn from the entities.
Of course, I may be mistaken. This is just my experience and what I have heard from others. I've researched shamanism, and people who i know who have used substances, drumming, fasting and meditation tell me that these latter technolgies are not as effective as using tryptamines or mescaline.
My personal experience is that the power of mediation, massage, sex, and drumming is multiplied by the careful use of entheogens.
PS Bells, sorry to hear that you are being lumbered with work. I hope that you will be able to still keep us on our toes with your incisive posts.
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Posted: 1/6/2005 11:19:30 AM | All-righty kiddos, story time. When I was a young child I had all sorts of problems, ranging from a zero attention span, WILD mood swings, tantrums, leg and other muscle cramps, etc. My parents ran through a couple doctors all advocating a series of medicines we could not afford. One wanted to run an allergy test, which fortunately my folks didn't trust, and again I think couldn't afford. Then we found a goldmine of a doctor. The first thing he did was see the poofy purple bags under my eyes and claim I had allergy problems, and HE told my parents why I was coming to see him even before they told him.
What he suggested was called an "elimination diet." It works like this: first put the child on a diet of really bland things that are not known as food allergens. Then work in one item at a time and judge the child's reaction according to a list of things (mood, attention, sleep, bladder control, cramps... HUGE list). My muscle cramps were a result of milk and wheat, especially combined; my mood & attention were adversely affected by rye, corn and peanuts. The first two weeks were the most miserable time my parents claim to have ever had with me. My body was accustomed to the regular ingestion of these things, and taking them all away at once put me in hard-core WITHDRAWAL. Once I finished the diet I was far more than "way better" I was a COMPLETELY different child -- and scores of people that knew me ALL were SHOCKED.
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Now what's my take on this as an adult? After investing many hours of research, I've found out that:
MILK: is not a good source of calcium, what little it has is nearly impossible for the body to assimilate (digest). The main proteins are caseins -- they're ok for baby cows, which are sedentary animals with a four-chamber stomach. In humans (childen and adults) these caseins are hard to digest, and function like glue inside the human body. Clogs everything, builds almost nothing. (I have no messaging restrictions; drop me a line and I'll GLADLY forward some great sites to check out!)
WHEAT: Cheap, easily mass-produced grain. Has almost no nutritional value. Contains lots of stuff called "glutens", which, like the milk proteins "caseins" also act like glue inside the body. The combination severely hampers muscle growth and function.
CORN: I will never stop railing on corn, it's HORRID. Beware of anything that cheap to produce. It has NO nutritional value. It is not technically even a grain -- it's the world's only "organic carbohydrate". It's effect on the brain is the opposite of an MAO inhibitor. I think we're all in agreement that some substances can boost one's happiness and feeling of well-being, so is it that far-fetched to think that some things can cause unhappiness? Corn is it! I firmly believe that at least 99% of the diagnoses of ADD are unidentified corn allergies. We know that sugar makes kids hyper, corn is sugar hyper-drive. I wish I could stress how utterly dispicable this substance is.
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Note that ALL of these things are absolue every-meal staples of the American diet (and for most of the rest of the "civilized" war as well). A few decades back one could go the store and buy this stuff called "juice". Nowdays you have to go to the health food isle, or a health food store to get it, and you pay almost triple price. What we have instead is "juice cocktail" or "juice beverage". And guess what the ingredients are: it's nearly PURE corn syrup (!), plus artificial colors and flavors (oops, did I forget to mention I'm allergic to those too, just like everybody else?... ESPECIALLY red food coloring?), sugar (just a little more hyper-juice to boost your kids' ill health), and usually 1-3% actual "juice". And juice is just one example.
Try finding something that's made with a grain other than wheat or corn. The only alternative is rice or oats (I'm down with rice, I think it's good stuff; oats too I guess). But check out the cereal isle, and notice that over 90% is corn or wheat, and usually corn. Also check out the pastas.
Our meats come from animals that are pumped up on steroids, hormones, antibiotics and a whole host of other nasty chemicals. Our "fresh vegetables" are often genetically modified, and again pumped up on fertilizers, fungicides, herbicides, pesticides, sometimes irradiated, and many of them are required to be coated with a layer of like chemicals, and sprayed with wax. (Go scrape the skin of an apple sometime -- yes that is a wax/chemical mix.)
Our diet is more than simply "poor sustinance", it's outright detrimental. The aggregate mental health of the world is plummeting. I don't think it's part of some elitist plot, I think it's the result of mega-corporations trying to mass-produce food as cheap as they can, and forming partnerships with governmental agencies to ensure mutual success. The air we breath, the water we drink and bathe in, the ground we walk on -- these are all extremely polluted. Not to mention the MASS of electromagnetic radiation surging through our bodies 24/7 from radio & TV broadcasts, cell & wireless phones, power lines, etc.
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Now, how does this relate to the topic? Think of the brain like an engine. If you add some octane boost to the gas, you get more horsepower/performance. On a V8 this may be ok, but add octane booster to a lawn mower engine and you'll crack the block before it even gets fully cranked. On a four-cylinder you can do damage within the first few times you use it. Only a very few engines can run long-term on higher octane.
Given the dietary knowledge presented above, consider this analogous to everyone's engine having never had an oil change. The sparkplugs are shot, the distributor doesn't rotate like it should, the alternator doesn't put out electricity like it should, the battery doesn't recharge all the way, the starter's slow, the carburator/fuel injectors are clogged, ditto for the oil and fuel filters, tack on an exhaust leak, some serious valve clatter and an off-beat timing belt and...
now tell me that the best way to boost performance is by adding some octane booster to your gas! No buddy, first you need an overhaul or at least a serious-delirious tune up.
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I think that our diets and lifestyles are drugs within themselves. Everything is a drug. Everything has psychoactive effects and can be addictive, and almost everything IS one giant bad side-effect. Taking certain chemicals and separating them from the rest and saying "these are the ones that are bad for you, and these are the ones that are only not bad for you if you doctor says so"... what's the word for that? Asinine doesn't cover it.
As far as the drugs in question go (hallucinogens etc -- this thread), I think of them like octane boost. Most of us can enjoy a good trip, some more than others. When we take this stuff we don't add anything new to our brain, we allow our brain to either produce abnormal amounts of chemicals it already makes, or makes the brain super-sensitive to it's own juices. I think this is GOOD. The key is to remember that we can always revert or refer to the knowledge and epiphanies we create on our trips. Indeed we may permanently alter our brain function for the better, in terms of our ability to ponder deep subjects such as religion, politics, philosophy, sociology, psychology, etc. We may open up new neural pathways in the "creative" gland, but know that these are permanent once they have been opened only one time. While some drugs may actually make us truly more lucid -- remember that lucidity itself is merely an electrochemical reaction -- some drugs may only make us *feel* more lucid. When the letdown hits, we don't remember any deep subject thoughts, only a feeling of heightened lucidity, so we want more, as though there are two realities -- one doped up and one sober -- and we have to take stuff in order to go back.
I think what we need to do is focus on keeping our engines clean, THEN try to boost performance, and do that only in moderation. Peace. | |
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Posted: 1/6/2005 11:58:55 AM | But if that boy had become ill because a pharmaceutical company had not tested it's product thoroughly enough, or sells a drug that is contaminated, or if a doctor adminsters the wrong dosage then they are held legally responsible (at least here in the UK they are), you dont have that with an illegal substance
Of course not.That's not what I was talking about.In situations where such drugs as MDMA are tested for therapeutic reasons, as is now done in Switzerland,the test subjects sign waivers of responsibility.Now I don't know if this covers faulty pharmaceuticals or whatnot,but you can rest assured that if a doctor is administering a drug to a patient,he will only use something that has been through the testing process.What I would like to see is these drugs getting the scientific attention they deserve,not being driven further into the labyrynth of illegal thrill drugs where the manufacture isn't under scrutiny and the price is overblown.Who knows what medical advancements could be made if the prohibition against testing these drugs were lifted? | |
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Posted: 1/6/2005 8:46:31 PM | | i guess it may depend on what country you are from, but here in america, even heart monitors and components of blood pressure devices and insulin-level detectors are officially classified as drugs. :) | |
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DMT
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Joined: 12/3/2004
Msg: 58 | |
| magical substances
Posted: 1/9/2005 7:47:34 PM | | some really interesting posts on here. thanks. I'm a bit tired from flying in from italy just now but will respond better tomorrow | |
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Posted: 1/10/2005 6:26:10 PM | This post really poses some unique perspectives...
Drugs do help inspire and bring about creativity. Shamans, musicians, and scores of regular people would agree with this statement. For 99% of human existence, people lived as hunter-gatherer cultures that highly valued creativity. But mainstream society is now one that seeks to de-humanize everything and bring about, as George Bush I said in 1989, 'a new world order.'
Drug ABUSE is a major problem and I think that overuse of drugs should be discouraged.
Look on any of your U.S. bills. To the left of your "forefather" is reads, "this note is legal tender for all debts, public and private." The term legal tender comes from the time when you could pay your taxes in TENDER buds of marijuana. It was a common practice in our largely agrarian society up until the beginning of the 20th century when marijuana was made illegal. | |
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Posted: 1/11/2005 1:51:21 AM | I lived in Holland for many years...a country where cannabis is sold over the counter...its still illegal, but, they dont bother to prosecute for personal use.....now..one thing i did notice was that the fabric of society hasnt broken down.
Most of the coffeeshops have mostly foreigners in them....for example...Amsterdam might as well be renamed London.
Dutch kids actually believe that there is more street cred attached to not smoking grass.
Ive smoked daily myself, since, 1979...and still manage a good job...can get up in the morning to do the job...which is more than can be said for many people who drink....
It doesnt lead to hard drugs...im an example of that.
As ive said to my daughter....i dont mind her smoking grass...rather she didnt because of the health risks from smoking anything ...and..there is a financial expense at the end of the day....but..id rather she smoked than drink....she is also aware that if the drug is man made
its fallable.
How governments and states can legislate against a plant is beyond me....im not religious by any stretch, but, doesnt it say in the bible somewhere that god gave us seeds and flowers etc for us to enjoy?
As for for Moses and the burning bush.....talk about a wake up call!!!
Only a stoned person would come up with those ten commandements.
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DMT
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Joined: 12/3/2004
Msg: 61 | |
| magical substances
Posted: 1/11/2005 2:20:34 AM | Dave,
I'm guilty of being one of the Englishmen who make Amsterdam seem like London. It's friendlier than London though, the local people seem very cultured and warm. I remember going to see a Van Gough Museum on Christmas day, which to me is just as much a spiritual and magical experience as going to a church.
I also noticed that there were quite a lot of retired Dutch people coming into the headshops to buy mushrooms around christmas time. Are mushrooms widely used by the Dutch? I got the impression that for some of the elderly people, they enjoy a mushroom trip at xmas. Is this the case? | |
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Posted: 1/11/2005 2:36:35 AM | Cant say that i ever noticed...although the head shop near where i lived in The Hague..sold magic mushroom soup...in cans!!...
I did leave a can of it in the cupboard for when my mother came a visiting....she was getting on my nerves...so...left it there for here as she likes a bit of mushroom soup....she never bloody touched it...lol
But...seriously....have no answer about old folks and mushrooms...
I used to get hammered, then go to the rijksmuseum...which was cool as well... | |
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Posted: 1/11/2005 7:56:59 AM | I’m going to try and summarise everything I’ve said and think, I hope that it will answer most questions, I apologise if I miss out bits that anyone has asked I’ve had a bit to catch up on
Basically, I do not think drugs are bad not do I think they are good.
Both legal and illegal drugs have benefits, all have side affects, some worse and some better than others, even marijuana can cause problems with short term memory.
I do believe that there should be extensive scientific research into all of the currently banned drugs, especially those counted as softer drugs.
Whilst MDMA may not be as dangerous as people are led to believe, there have been instances of death from first time use in safe surroundings - this is something that must be investigated and taken into consideration before anyone takes it!
As for entheogens etc, personally I don’t believe it is healthy to use any drug on regular basis unless prescribed by a doctor to correct a health problem, whilst they may lead people to understand more spiritual side of life which yes will in some cases have a beneficial affect on their life, anything can cause a habitual addiction and it is the habit which is often hardest to break.
When I mentioned the journeys being ‘fake', I apologised to anyone that it offended, I was talking mainly about those journeys where friends of mine have seen devils running on buses, and little green men sitting on their friends shoulders, a very good friend also saw another friend turn into sonic the hedgehog and spent the night watching sonic run around the room.
Personally I think that society has a drug problem, whilst not all drug users become heavy and/or violent drug users, there are some that do and that issue needs to be addressed, drug education needs to become a lot better, and the use of drugs which are clinically proven to be of no harm or of less harm than benefit should be legalised, but never encouraged. | |
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Posted: 1/11/2005 8:07:13 AM | When I mentioned the journeys being ‘fake', I apologised to anyone that it offended, I was talking mainly about those journeys where friends of mine have seen devils running on buses, and little green men sitting on their friends shoulders, a very good friend also saw another friend turn into sonic the hedgehog and spent the night watching sonic run around the room.
This is what happens when people use these drugs the same way one would pop open a can of beer.These are powerful psychadelics and should only be used for what they were intended for.If there is a spiritual side and these drugs are indeed opening up doors to perception then I think what must be going on here is that whatever is on the other side is messing with your friends and having fun at their expense. | |
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Posted: 1/11/2005 8:18:24 AM | | But this is my point, these are irregular users, they took them at home, in a safe calm relaxed environment, sober, for the purpose they were intended, everything that you were meant to do, but experienced nothing like what advocates of these drugs say they could, now im not saying that they wont experience it, and it is more than likely that what they used was contaminated in some way. However there are no guarantees, there is not enough known about them, and the controls are not in place to do what can be done to make it an enlightening or spiritual journey. Furthermore if the use of these drugs is encouraged without people getting the proper education then there will be more and more young people using the drugs as they would a can of beer. | |
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Posted: 1/11/2005 8:39:40 AM | There is no guarantee of anything in life.You can put whatever safeguards on anything and that will not guarantee it won't be misused or even if used properly,that there won't be a bad experience or even a death.
What I am against is putting drugs such as MDMA on a schedule 1 list which means it has been demed as not having any medical use and therefore all expereimentation and research is banned.How can anything be learned about a substance if it's banned?
The bottom line here is that a free society is a dangerous one,fraught with risks.The other choice is a nice, safe totalitarian society.I'll take freedom with it's danger. | |
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Posted: 1/11/2005 8:59:19 AM | Taurus, I'm agreeing with you, it should be researched properly and no there is no such thing as a safe society, however where it can be made as safe as possible then it should be, because whilst most of us would take freedom with danger, i wont if it means that my borthers will grow up being ill educated about drugs but encouraged to use them.
Ive said above, i dont think they should all be banned, but saying that they are good without researching it properly or developing some safe guards would be as irresponsible as not teaching our children to stop look and listen before they cross the road. | |
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