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| Juvenile offenders
Posted: 12/6/2005 12:49:05 AM | | Last week. And you should tell me when we agree! Otherwise I get confused. | |
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| Juvenile offenders
Posted: 12/6/2005 7:04:46 AM | | Thanks to all of you for your comments. Some additional info. One of the boys who was caught, the mother is in prison for meth manufactureing. He is in the custody of his grandmother. The grandmother came to me and told me how much money the boy was costing her in legal fees and fines. She is a good woman and has no control over the boy. As for the father he is not around. | |
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| Juvenile offenders
Posted: 12/6/2005 9:28:29 AM | gotapulse... I take it you live in a city? I'm in a small town, I knew pretty much every officer before hand just from being in the community, everybody knows everybody. I also have an ER nurse for a mom in this small town who, is in contact with every police officer, so I do know she was asking them to watch me. So its not hard to think that in this rural area, they would know who I am.
I did not have 15 meetings in 3 months, I had a year and a half of probation, and I had to meet up whenever I was requested, sometimes it was a phone call, sometimes it was meeting in the office, normally once a month. And I had 100 hours of community service... wich is already something I was involved with before hand. it was just a pain in the a***, I had all ready reconciled with the "victim" of my crime before I was even in court.
And yeah, I broke a window and took off, thats how it happened, thats why it was an "attempt" I coulda walked right in if I wanted.
and, you don't know my familly life growing up... how would you dicipline your kid? how about a few smacks across the head (this has proven to cause frontal lobe damage in kids, and is, in extreme cases what causes serial killers, rapists, etc... not only from physical damage, but the helplessness and the feeling of being no good gives you.) That was the least of it... had not father around except an abusive step father that I had seen numerous times beat the crap out of my mom, and he sent me to school one day with a broken rib, broken nose and my eyes swelled shut! The reason for my beating was the dog had escaped the back yard...
Just before my incident, I had a few years of rough going with friends, relationships, and careers... Doesn't justify what I did, but in a young persons mind it can 'cause a temporary malfunction, a feeling of hopelessness, a bit of rage, and the fact you need to get back at something for you getting what you didn't deserve... I could have easily gone out and started heavy drugs (I have never even taken a toke of a joint), that is a drain on society when they need to help clean you up, or when u take all the welfare u can because you need some crack... or maybe I coulda gone out and become a woman beater, or started to knife someone in a bar... The ways I get my frustrations out, cost money, they are not bad things... it's something like dirt bikes and that, that is how I get off... costs money... So yeah, one day I snapped. as soon as that glass shattered I was gone, and wondered why I did it.
I learn as much as I can about people, about the world, I'm an intelligent person, and I've read up on things like criminal behaviour, and physchology and why things are the way they are... sometimes it's not as simple as getting slapped around when ure growing up to teach you the right thing to do... | |
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| Juvenile offenders
Posted: 12/6/2005 1:31:28 PM |
See, that's not correct or nearly precise. YOU'RE parents maybe try to enforce rules and consequences but there are thousands, nay, millions that don't.
It's also incorrect to say that it's not their fault that the kid feels like being "a little rebellous and doing something dumb". Well, I'll tell you what, if it's the kid's fault because they are fully cognizant of their actions then we punish them as adults. If's not the kid's fault for being a no good hooligan then it was because he or she was raised wrong. That makes it the parent's fault. I'm tired of people saying that it's not the kid's fault because they don't know what they're doing (bullshit anyway) and conversely, if you say "fine then, whose fault is it then?" the answer is that it's either the parents (sensible conclusion if it the responsibility can't be directed at the the person responsible) or "society". The "society" excuse is a crock of shit and we all know it. The only people who think that everything bad in our world is the fault of "society" are usually about fifteen or have bought into the victim culture whereby if you can't actually blame those responsible it's really easy to pin it on the vague and nebulously defined body we call "society". I say no. The kid did it, treat him or her like you would any other adult. Our friend above you seems to be a prime candidate for proof that enough attention will insure against recividism. Conversely, if a kid can't be blamed for putting a knife through some schmuck on the street for five bucks, then it's because they don't understand right from wrong. If your kid doesn't know it's wrong to stab somebody else then they are either monumentally stupid or you've failed as a parent. One or the other and no excuses anymore.
I see what you're saying, I think. Maybe I'm a little idealistic because I've had a good upbringing, my brother and I know what is right and what is wrong and at times we've decided to go against what is right just to....stir the shit pot.
Ok, so *SOME* parents try to enforce rules, and consequences. Make a point of teaching their children right from wrong, moral values and the like. According to the laws of society.
Moral values can differ from person to person. Some people may think it's perfectly ok to get into a bar fight over a girl, because...hey, survival of the fittest. Others, like me, think that's just ridiculous.
Moral values, without the aid of the laws within a given society....are just ideas.
the system is indeed flawed, both in Canada and The states...and all over the world. We do the best we can, we change with the times but some people just aren't scared of the consequences, they just don't care.
A person who has never been abused in any way during childhood...raised to be a law abiding citizen with extremely 'good citizen' parents. Someone with an excellent education....becomes a sociopath and goes on a killing spree... is it the parents fault? I highly doubt it. | |
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| Juvenile offenders
Posted: 12/6/2005 5:45:20 PM | @ cdnrdnk
Rest assured cdnrdnk that I'm well versed in the art of getting the crap kicked out of me by irrational and angry parents for the most trivial of reasons. A slap across the forehead is not going to give anybody brain damage unless they have some exceptionally rare and delicate condition to begin with. However, this is all beside the point anyway. Case in point is the fact that, as I suspected, there was more to the story than you volunteered. The reason I took exception to the story is simple ; our justice system does not operate that way. In fact, it acts the opposite way. What you describe is not the justice system at work but the actions of a few interested (for good reason) individuals. Different topic.
@ lady-fair
Your last point is correct. It's unlikely to be the parent's fault in a case like that. That person is a danger to society and no amount of education, love, attention and care is going to do a damned thing by that time. However, statistically speaking, most sociopaths are brought up in dysfunctional households with inattentive parents. In fact, a sociopath is not necessarily prone to criminal behaviour (most don't commit crimes and it's likely you know a few of them by the strictest definition of the term) Of importance as well is the fact that a sociopath knows right from wrong but doesn't care. Laws are codified ethics as you allude to so it stands to reason that a lack of ethics is also a lack of respect for the law. I believe you are aware of this so don't think I'm patronizing you about it.
Anyway, you say that *SOME* parents try to enforce rules. I disagree. In fact, it appears that %99 of them try to enforce rules. It's probably closer to %100 but just for arguments sake, we'll allow for some exceptions. The point is not whether they try to enforce rules but in how effective they are at it. Simply telling a child "no" will not suffice if they repeat the behaviour over a suitably prolonged period of time. I think I was grounded once in my life and not by my parents. Did it work ? No. I'll acknowledge that it might have but it doesn't matter because in that case it didn't. What was the common punishment was a good solid punch in the nose. That worked every time. In fact, I didn't need to hear a command twice. Don't think I'm arguing for punching a kid in the nose every time he or she won't listen. I'm not suggesting any such thing as it should obviously be viewed as excessive. What children need is to have something they fear enough to give them pause when they are in doubt. A child who doesn't care about a "time out" won't think twice about setting the cat on fire. A child that has an itch to set the cat on fire will most likely stop and reconsider if he or she knows that the punishment will be a tanned ass.
Many people debate the merits of corporal punishment with children and both sides have some valid points. The solution should be obvious but just in case it isn't : fear of punishment is more effective than the punishment itself. That means they need an example to go by and that will do the trick. THAT means you might have to administer physical punishment three, maybe four times in the course of their childhood if ever. Of course, this all assumes that your kid (like most others) doesn't respond to reason in the first place. The old adage "this will hurt me more than it will hurt you" rings true when considering that a loving parent doesn't like doing what they are doing but knows that it's necessary. Anyway, technically, this debate isn't supposed to be about how to raise children so I'll move along and get to the point.
If a parent cannot instill a healthy sense of respect for the public and the law in their child, they have failed. Not because they didn't make an effort but because they didn't make enough of one. Saying "no" when you are well aware that a child won't listen should make it obvious that you need to change your methods. However, if you as a parent cannot be bothered to explore alternate avenues of discipline then the law steps in once the child breaks it. In that case, kid gloves are not appropriate. The child needs an impression. That impression must not be successive instances of aclimatization to the penal system but a hard and cold wake-up call. They need to learn to fear the punishment the law will dole out. Does that mean prison ? No. It means 500 hours of community service, six months in boot camp, a thousand dollar fine, whatever. Getting sent home to their rooms to philosophize on the nature of their error is not adequate. There is no guarantee that they will do any such thing but let's say there was...remember English class ? I was graded on my creativity not my studiousnous when it was all boiled down to the core.
So maybe the answer is to do both. Punish and educate both the parent AND the child. We pay lip service to this idea but have yet to implement any true and comprehensive program that addresses this notion. In light of our current procedures and the public's dissatisfaction with them perhaps it is time to hold somebody other than "society" accountable. I say we boot the pop-psychologists out of the courtrooms and take their new-age theories to New-Age Land. We are tired of being told that "we don't understand" about how hard it is for the young criminal or his parents. Enough of this crap. One way or another somebody is going to get a fire lit under their ass if this continues. | |
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| Juvenile offenders
Posted: 12/6/2005 7:44:59 PM | I'm of course not a fan of the idea that a fear of physical pain is required to set children straight. I myself have *never* been hit. There was that one time my father threw me across the room but I suspect it had more to do with the fact that he was hallucinating from a bad coc high than what I was doing. That in mind, I understand that sometimes little ones will require a light smack to the rear before they'll stop fussing and start listening. I never had that problem as a child. I was quiet, I listened, and I responded accordingly. Granted when I was much younger the vocabulary was a lot smaller, but that's beside the point. My brother on the other hand is the type to put his fists through the wall in anger. There is not much that you can to to counter that kind of anger.
You see I believe that fear is not a form of respect. Respect is earned by giving and showing respect. Fear suggests tyranny.
I knew a girl once whose adoptive father would throw boiling water in her face whenever she would speak out of turn. At 15 she left home. Apparently living on a street in downtown Vancouver was better than having boiling water thrown at her. I understand that you're not suggesting this type of behaviour as a good way to gain respect or get children to abide by rules however it does go to show my point. Fear doesn't always mean following orders. Sometimes it in fact means rebellion to a further degree.
I think in anything further than a little slap on the bottom any hitting of a child is completely uncalled for and in fact quite wrong.
I agree that a mere grounding is sometimes not effective. Community service is an excellent form of consequence and it does get things that need be done, done.
Sometimes councelling would be a better solution. Sometimes there are medical issues that need to be looked at. Sometimes there are things that have nothing to do with the parents that occur outside of their knowledge - that effect the child. Unless you know someone through and through (as an omnipotent being) none of us can say whether anything else has occured that could effect the child.
Violence is rarely an answer to a problem. Monetary fines do nothing in regards to the rich. Community service may be thought of a just a job. Afterall you can get credits for it in highschool. Boot Camps...well as far as I'm concerned any military training only makes 'em stronger. Deprograming...fine - but don't use blunt force for it. | |
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yna6
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Joined: 5/2/2004
Msg: 32 | |
| Juvenile offenders
Posted: 12/6/2005 8:40:26 PM | Hmmm...and we are at a day and age where young kids (who are the most impressionable) are being raised in daycares. So who's to blame for their upbringing? Then we have the "career parents" Give their kids everything...except their time.
tough for a kid to actually figure out his/her social responsibilities...but they should know the difference between right and wrong. If negative attention is all they can garner, then they will go for it. | |
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| Juvenile offenders
Posted: 12/6/2005 8:46:30 PM | did ya think that it might not be an occasional slap across the forehead?
At 16 I had a serious concussion, as in I was unconcious for a half hour, and not really allowed to do any kind of activity but walking for a couple months because of the brain being bruised. Not that it's a reason to do it.
You, are not looking at the fact that I have owned up to what I did, I talked to the shop owner, I confesed and co-operated openly with police. I was lucky I didn't get 30 days of jail time... See, I live in a small area, people know people, and this shop owner was out to get someone after he lost a few things that were of alot of value... somehow on my own, in my little sunbird in 30 muinets, I ran off with 2 trailers, a sea doo, a 4 wheeler and 2 snowmobiles, and a dirt bike that fell off onto the road.... Me, alone in a 4 cylinder sunbird... So yeah, in this area, people talk and thats how I got a strict sentence.
I was not complaining that I got in trouble, I deserved it, what I'm stating is I messed up one time, and I rectified the situation, I did my community service. But, I'm saying it's hard for people to change when they don't get another chance to pull themselves up and out.
See, I used to volunteer feeding quadrapalegics at the hospital since they can't do it, I was going to a youth group and a home bible study 2 times a week for 4 years, and a month before I broke this window, I spend a week in the literal ghetto of buffalo helping out iner city families, handing out food, cleaning up properties, giving fun days for kids that never smile. So yeah, I snapped one day and had a bad day! But all of the things I've done that benefit people, mean nothing because of a mistake?
NOBODY beleived me I did this, not my friends, not my familly, nobody, I've even had to show friends the court records for this... if I wasn't straightened out, I wouldn't be wanting to be a paramedic to help people, I wouldn't be attempting to get into the military to help the people I see on the news... So yea, I am not a common case and there are a few cases around like myself. I wasn't given proper council, I couldn't get a lawyer because I had a job that paid minimum wage at the time. oh, I had 30 seconds with duty council before I went into the court room... now how was that proper council? See, the system isn't always the best, the best thing for me was a conditional sentance where if I completed it all to the book (like I did) then it is taken as I learn my lesson and my life ain't screwed...
I don't think it's wrong for a kid to get a physical punishment, a few smacks across the butt once in a while... you do learn to never talk back and you jump when your parents say jump, but there is also the rage that builds up and all the stress and feeling you are being squeezed in, and thats why I exploded. | |
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| Juvenile offenders
Posted: 12/8/2005 10:08:04 AM | My advice stalk the ones that damage your property...then set up hiddin cameras....then go to their house and break what they broke of yours. Or just camp out on your propety in the shadows, when they come on your lawn, hit them with a bat or come out with a chainsaw with the cain missing. If you ever see the face of a kid who is rushed with a chain saw, and your wearing a freaky costume......f#ckin pricless. I used to work for a haunted house....um...thats how I know. Im going to try on my skin suit now  | |
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