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| Does god exist?
Posted: 2/7/2006 10:36:14 AM |
Science tells us that matter cannot come from just light and heat, and therefore could not have come from the singularity that had no matter in it, just light and heat.
Not true at all, you have read the special theory of relitvity have you?
Let me sum up the most important point. Energy equals Mass, times the squared Speed of Light. or E=MC'2
This means that mater, motion, and energy are a carefull ballence, mass can be created from eneryg and motion. By reducing one, to keep the balance either the other must be increased, or mass must be created. This is why mass can not reach the speed of light, to do so would require infinte energy.
What I am saying is that mass can be created by energy because Einstein prooved it. The universe could similarly be created from no mass without the nead for a god to start things off. All that is required, is for energy or the speed of light to be eternal and as far as we know they are, they will remain the same after the end of the universe and as far as hypothetical phsics go, were the same before the start of the universe.
The phisical constraints of this world, do NOT REQUIRE a god to start them, and they also do NOT PROCLUDE a god from doing so. there is no way to know, so it is simply a mater of faith and nothing more. | |
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AxyL
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Joined: 12/1/2005
Msg: 252 | |
| Does god exist?
Posted: 2/7/2006 11:29:20 AM |
ad infinitum
"forever, without limit, to infinity."
Or the source of all and is or ever could be, without concern for who may be right or wrong after all it is a fact that the reasoning center of the brain when in worship is shut down.
see: http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1223
I'm sure there is more online try Googling " brain faith and reason" or "mapping the Brain" | |
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Grampy
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Joined: 6/8/2004
Msg: 253 | |
| Does god exist?
Posted: 2/7/2006 11:55:07 AM | | who put the energy out there and the mass? Everything has a beginning and has to start and come from somewhere.Who put it there who started it. Is there God? You bet there is. Just look around you. See the beauty of the spring,the warmth of the summer ,the colours of the fall and the sparkle of winter flakes each one totally different from the others. Nothing could have done what has been done only God. | |
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 2/7/2006 12:08:02 PM |
Not true at all, you have read the special theory of relitvity have you? Let me sum up the most important point. Energy equals Mass, times the squared Speed of Light. or E=MC'2...
Correct me if I’m wrong, but what you are saying is that E = mc^2 simply says that matter and energy can be converted into one another , but pure energy can neither be created nor destroyed. This doesn’t answer the question of how matter was created from light and heat. True, both light and heat are forms of energy, but how did the conversion take place? A photon demonstrates both particle and wave properties at the same time, but let’s say that it has mass. Mixing photons with heat doesn’t produce hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, phosphorous, or sulfur (most of the matter in the universe is made up of some combination of these six elements). So the question remains. How did matter come from the singularity that initiated the big bang? | |
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Rich00
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Joined: 2/7/2006
Msg: 255 | |
| Does god exist?
Posted: 2/7/2006 12:12:33 PM | Well, the question that should precede 'Does God exist' is "Does God have to exist?" Indeed, we can explain our origins and circumstances without reference to a supernatural diety. But, this is not a disproof of God in and of itself; it merely shows that God need not exist.
I have debated this at great length on serious debate sites..and truly do not have the energy to get into it again - at least not right now. But remember this; Religion does not need God, it can exist without him..and the evidence of God we have is purely subjective. These things in and of itself does not constitute proof. With that said, to be an atheist and claim with a certainty that God doesnt exist is an equally indefensible position.
I am an agnostic and a philosopher. We just cant know for sure, so I feel it's better to just try to understand everything as best you can, rather than restrict yourself by professing belief in any one of the numerous gods/religions we currently have. | |
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 2/7/2006 12:23:12 PM | Well, the question that should precede 'Does God exist' is "Does God have to exist?"
Tuff question. It should probably have a thread of its own
I am an agnostic and a philosopher. We just cant know for sure, so I feel it's better to just try to understand everything as best you can, rather than restrict yourself by professing belief in any one of the numerous gods/religions we currently have.
If God does exist and he is everything that the various religions say that he is then what we are talking about is a relationship, not a lab experiment. If this is true then perhaps God gives proof to those who seek him. | |
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Rich00
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Joined: 2/7/2006
Msg: 257 | |
| Does god exist?
Posted: 2/7/2006 3:15:38 PM | By the same token, wouldnt God be very pleased if we dedicated ourselves to understanding our world on our own? (ex: non-theist approaches of philospohy, science, astronomy, psychology, etc). Think about it; if God created all those things, and then created us and didnt bother to give us proof of his existence, then perhaps he intends for us to find our own way and use the gift of intelligence that he gave us?
On the other hand, he may be disapointed in some of the more dogmatic followers; who seem to ingore science (which is, after all, God's creation) in favor of worshipping an unseen being, in a man-made church with a man-made book. | |
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 2/7/2006 5:51:24 PM | By the same token, wouldn’t God be very pleased if we dedicated ourselves to understanding our world on our own? (ex: non-theist approaches of philosophy, science, astronomy, psychology, etc).
Consider what this leads to though. Historically science has lead us away from the idea of God. Every new mystery that science solves is one less miracle for God (I don’t believe that btw, but that’s the attitude of many scientists). Philosophy is important of coarse, but philosophers almost invariably become agnostic. Philosophers such as Kant and Hume say that it is impossible to know the noumena and the philosophical arguments for God are relatively weak. As Richard Rorty put it “The point of philosophy is to keep the conversation going rather than to find objective truth.”
Having said all that, you’re quite right, science is Gods creation. It depends entirely on how one looks at it. The question is “can the creator be understood solely thorough his creations?” My guess is probably not.
“Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind.”
-- Albert Einstein
Personally I believe that the more we find out about science and religion the more they will support one another.
Think about it; if God created all those things, and then created us and didn’t bother to give us proof of his existence, then perhaps he intends for us to find our own way and use the gift of intelligence that he gave us?
This is of coarse a legitimate position. Some people are inclined to believe that God is not omnipotent, or perhaps he is impersonal. Some suggest that he simply made creation to keep from getting bored. Apart from our own direct experience the only evidence that we have to go by are the scriptures. Most of the world’s great religions tell us that God loves us unconditionally and is all powerful and all wise. One thing should be fairly clear though. Philosophy and science will never prove God, so it really all depends on whether one believes verses such as this.
Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
St. Paul gives an interesting definition of faith in the book of Hebrew.
Hebrews 11:1-2 NOW FAITH is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
I interpret this verse to mean that faith is the evidence that God gives those who pursue him.
On the other hand, he may be disappointed in some of the more dogmatic followers; who seem to ignore science (which is, after all, God's creation) in favor of worshipping an unseen being, in a man-made church with a man-made book.
Too much dogma is blinding indeed. People tend to forget that it’s their relationship with God that’s important. Too much dogma obscures that at times.
Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
How many people have you heard preach about what God’s ways and Judgments are? 
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 2/8/2006 10:52:53 AM | It blows my mind that after learning a man no different then any man using this forum wrote the bible .
and people believe god exist off such writings.
but i do respect peoples beliefs ..
just blows my mind..common sense tells me
Does god exist? Of course not .
how silly in the head some people must be .
but hey just how i feel | |
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 2/8/2006 10:53:52 AM | 
please all these crazy people around me (jk jk)
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 2/8/2006 12:07:59 PM | LoL  You crack me up Dghost. I can see where you’re coming from though. I’ve got a question for you. How do you know that the authors who wrote the Bible were nut jobs like us? If the theory that God gives proof to those who search for him is true, then the authors were probably more in touch with God than we are.
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
-- Albert Einstein. | |
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 2/8/2006 12:19:08 PM | But see what i,m saying..
thats what they claim...
thats it they claim they got this from a so called god...
thats it thats the bases of your reply to what i said..
now i have friends with deep beliefs of there own and like u they get a chuckle out of me.
they respect me and they say i blow there mind .
i,m such a good guy they say ..they dont understand how a person as good hearted as me doesnt believe.
i have strong beliefs and open to share.
you know people i know have changed there lives.
my buddy jim ..crackhead growing up and not kidding crack this guys life was over befor it started.
drinking doing crack listening to death metal ..when i moved home i thought i would hear of him either dead or in jail and that worried me ..i found him cleaned up no drugs his own job own appartment and played in a christian rock band.
the ppl at that chuch where amazing and what they did for him they deserve all the props and level of respect and thanks i can offer.
even in the face of that i believe what i believe.
sometimes i like to shoot my thoughts out there as i see few who claim there none believers give some deeper detail to why.
i have fair reasons for not believing..
i,m open yeah u could be 100% right
but what if i am and these guys just CLAIMED god told them this and that.
after being asked by some believers what i thought and i told them..they tried everything to convince me other wise.
i would love to see there face if one day researchers found some old text detailing that .
the bible and all related books (hence sense writtin by a man) it telling of a confession of the writers who claimed they made it all up.
and to be honest back then if i wrote a book.
i have followers with deep passion like other around that would defend there beliefs in the face of a person like me he thinks otherwise | |
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 2/8/2006 12:48:13 PM | But see what i,m saying..thats what they claim...thats it they claim they got this from a so called god...thats it thats the bases of your reply to what i said..now i have friends with deep beliefs of there own and like u they get a chuckle out of me.they respect me and they say i blow there mind .i,m such a good guy they say ..they dont understand how a person as good hearted as me doesnt believe.
i have strong beliefs and open to share.
I understand what you’re saying. Science gives proof for all to see, so it’s easy to believe in. A relationship with God is just that, a relationship. Proof is only given to those who seek him, so it’s difficult to believe. This is the great stumbling block of spirituality. I’ve seen people loose their faith and become atheist/agnostics because they hadn’t received any proof of God. Religious dogma tends to obscure things. It seems everybody thinks that they are right and the other guys are wrong. Maybe I’ll start a thread on this.
you know people i know have changed there lives. my buddy jim ..crackhead growing up and not kidding crack this guys life was over befor it started. drinking doing crack listening to death metal ..when i moved home i thought i would hear of him either dead or in jail and that worried me ..i found him cleaned up no drugs his own job own appartment and played in a christian rock band. the ppl at that chuch where amazing and what they did for him they deserve all the props and level of respect and thanks i can offer.
That’s cool. Evidence like that is always the easiest to accept.
after being asked by some believers what i thought and i told them..they tried everything to convince me other wise. i would love to see there face if one day researchers found some old text detailing that . the bible and all related books (hence sense writtin by a man) it telling of a confession of the writers who claimed they made it all up.
Actually, there is already a book like that (at least in regards to Jesus). It’s called the Koran.
and to be honest back then if i wrote a book. i have followers with deep passion like other around that would defend there beliefs in the face of a person like me he thinks otherwise
It actually wasn’t as simple as that. For example the Catholic Church requires somebody to perform three miracles in order to become a saint, and they seem to be more interested in debunking miracles then accepting them. People were also getting killed back then for being “False prophets.”
Anyway, you have an open mind and that’s the important thing. Rock on…
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A is A
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Joined: 8/16/2004
Msg: 264 | |
| Does god exist?
Posted: 3/3/2006 5:40:26 PM | Just when you thought it was over:
The processes of existence are far from random (whatever that means?). Let’s try an experiment: introduce energy to whatever you wish, and see what happens—order/complexity. The great thing about things that exist is that they act according to their nature, which means that the experiment will prove to have the same result, if tried again. If randomness were at play then the results would be entirely different, and unpredictable; sort of like playing a slot machine.
The scientific method is a logical means to understanding. The scientific method does not support the existence of a god, nor does it support creationism—philosophy does.
Arguments presented, which suppose scientific support for god, are arguments that are temporally based, and demonstrate our limited knowledge of existence--the god of the gaps is born!
In other words: what we can scientifically know is “A”-- feel free to make up whatever you wish you think what we know implies.
I agree that, logically, if there is nothing, then some thing could not have possibly come to exist. But I venture to guess that any theist would not be able to think that, if a god exists, that it does not, too, exist, as something—that god, as well, would have to have a nature, and identity. I mean it’s only logical—it’s what science tells us, right?
A god is not needed for a thing to act according to its nature, and to have an identity.
A god is needed for a thing to be.
If god exists, then god has a nature, and an identity.
A god is not needed for god to be.
This is called “special pleading”.
P.S. there’s only one existence. So if there is a god, it’s not “outside” of it. | |
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A is A
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Joined: 8/16/2004
Msg: 265 | |
| Does god exist?
Posted: 3/3/2006 6:03:47 PM | Rockymtnromeo: all your attempts at supporting your claims a god exists are now coming down to the argument from relationship!
I wanted to point out one more thing: it is often claimed that god exists outside of existence, which would render any attempt to demonstrate god’s existence through evidence, impossible. On that note that which exists outside of existence must be considered to not exist at all, in the context of what can be scientifically discovered. The reason for this is simple: things that do not exist do not leave a blazing trail of evidence in their wake—there would be no wake! | |
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teajey
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Joined: 1/1/2006
Msg: 266 | |
| Does god exist?
Posted: 3/4/2006 10:04:27 AM | | In my opinion, it strikes me as a bit convenient how the laws of nature that allow for things like science and even this conversation to proceed, are for some reason, constantly being enforced. Evolution itself appears to be an ongoing, purposive and complex manifestation of pre existing potentialities, so far, having given rise to such things as priests, scientists and philosophers. I do not pretend this to be a ''proof'' of God's existence for those who would rather believe something else, only that, In such a world, I personally have little trouble envisioning some sort of intelligence behind it all. Forgive me for yet another Einstein quote :-) ...... The most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it IS comprehensible. | |
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 3/4/2006 3:46:07 PM | There may be many "universes". The others may not have the same physical laws as this one. The only reason we can comprehend this one at all is that its physical laws are such that life is possible.
It always amazes me that people insist that something must have a beginning, and it must be created by an intelligence. Think about it. If there IS an intelligence responsible, where did it come from? How was IT created? Simply because we may not be able to comprehend how this universe works, does NOT mean that anything or anyone is responsible for its existence. | |
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 3/4/2006 5:25:00 PM | | Are you all still on this whole god thing well my opinion on this one is when he shows up on my door and introduces himself then I will believe there is a God | |
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 3/4/2006 8:37:09 PM | The processes of existence are far from random (whatever that means?). Let’s try The scientific method is a logical means to understanding. The scientific method does not support the existence of a god, nor does it support creationism—philosophy does.
Arguments presented, which suppose scientific support for god, are arguments that are temporally based, and demonstrate our limited knowledge of existence--the god of the gaps is born!
Well, if science tells us that matter could not have come from light and heat, and that matter did come from light and heat in the big bang, it can be said that science suggests a creator of some sort that exists outside the laws of science as we know them.
The processes of existence are far from random (whatever that means?). Let’s try I agree that, logically, if there is nothing, then some thing could not have possibly come to exist. But I venture to guess that any theist would not be able to think that, if a god exists, that it does not, too, exist, as something—that god, as well, would have to have a nature, and identity. I mean it’s only logical—it’s what science tells us, right?
As I understand the scripture God exists both in reality and outside of it. On the one hand he created or even became the physical, on the other hand he is able to exist outside of the physical.
Rockymtnromeo: all your attempts at supporting your claims a god exists are now coming down to the argument from relationship!
The relationship is key. God is not a lab experiment. How can you mix chemicals in a laboratory and produce love? How can you scientifically prove the way you feel about those who are close to you?
I wanted to point out one more thing: it is often claimed that god exists outside of existence, which would render any attempt to demonstrate god’s existence through evidence, impossible.
Not exactly. The scripture tells us that God gives evidence to those who seek him. It’s probably true that we can never know or understand God if left to our own devices, but it is possible that God gives us that understanding when we are ready to receive it.
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A is A
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Joined: 8/16/2004
Msg: 270 | |
| Does god exist?
Posted: 3/5/2006 11:45:51 AM |
rockymtnromeo A is A
Well, if science tells us that matter could not have come from light and heat, and that matter did come from light and heat in the big bang, it can be said that science suggests a creator of some sort that exists outside the laws of science as we know them.
I don’t “do” science, so I have no idea what science says about anything. But let’s assume that what you say science says about matter is true
(that matter could not have emerged from light and heat). (I would have thought that light and heat would be attributes of matter, not the other way round?) This would still be an example of “god of the gaps.” Also, in no way does this support any particular god’s existence.
After doing 10 minutes of research: light and heat are “products” electron-proton annihilation, which result in gamma rays. All light is a type of gamma ray—some are of such a wavelength that allow us to see them; others are not.
Note: a gamma ray is just another term used to describe the same thing electromagnetic energy. Energy, then (according to my reasoning), radiates (radiation) light with particular wavelengths. I may have some principles wrong, but I’m not about to commit myself to a full understanding of particle physics for the sake of this discussion (but I will if I have to). But I think if you were to pursue a few minutes of research, you will find similar results.
So it seems that science DOES NOT say that matter does not come from light and heat. Science says the opposite of what you’re saying it says: that light and heat come from matter.
What I find interesting is that any claim of some thing existing is as true as any other claim of some thing as existing, if what is being claimed to exist exists outside of science’s domain, results in the following: that whatever cannot be currently touched by the all mighty hand of science, is, not only equally possible, but equally true! The arbitrary is a wonderful thing, isn’t it?
I will not be allowing you to use ignorance as a means to deductively conclude anything. I don’t, so why should you? Let’s all be consistent, please—it’s the only way we are going to be able to discuss what’s what intelligibly.
Not exactly. The scripture tells us that God gives evidence to those who seek him. It’s probably true that we can never know or understand God if left to our own devices, but it is possible that God gives us that understanding when we are ready to receive it.
I have no idea what you have experienced, which leads you to think that these experiences are originated otherworldly, but I will grant it that you have had them. What I would like to know is WHY you think them (experience(s)) to be otherworldly?
On that note, you retelling them are not evidence—it’s testimony of an experience. Evidence must be substantive and demonstrable, or there can’t be any (evidence) at all. Evidence is the self-evident, and it is the self-evident that is used as evidence to show that a claim or theory to be true. Evidence is used to corroborate testimony. For example: “A” said that “B” committed act “C.” This is great, that C was supposedly caught in the act by “A,” but if no evidence is to be had to corroborate this experience, then not much can be done to assign guilt to “B.”
The relationship is key. God is not a lab experiment. How can you mix chemicals in a laboratory and produce love? How can you scientifically prove the way you feel about those who are close to you?
If I love some person, it is because this person, through means of observing said person’s behaviour, has affected me. I have had passionate sentiments aroused because this person’s character, values, appearance, correspond to what I value.
Who could not value an omni benevolent, omni present, omniscient and omnipotent entity, which is affected by your actions and thoughts toward it? Does this make you feel powerful?
This is what I think that you are in love with—those fanciful notions of the penultimate entity that has a personal interest in you; that this entity, as super-fantastic as it is, also finds appreciation in your sub servitude for it. Now that’s power, huh? That you can cause gratitude in the absolute entity, which posses absolutely unwavering values, unwavering power, unwavering love and unwavering knowledge. I can see how belief in this type of god can cause emotional mania. | |
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A is A
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Joined: 8/16/2004
Msg: 271 | |
| Does god exist?
Posted: 3/5/2006 5:20:50 PM | A correction: rockymtnromeo, I was mistaken in what I was reading in your posts about light and heat not being the source of matter; but where I am not mistaken is that your implication of matter not having anything to do with light and heat--that light and heat exist at some point in time, where matter would not have, and since light and heat do not give rise to matter (implying that light and heat can somehow always exist), that matter would have had to be created. This is still incorrect.
Just what are you trying to say? | |
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A is A
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Joined: 8/16/2004
Msg: 272 | |
| Does god exist?
Posted: 3/5/2006 5:32:59 PM | correcting a correction:
You did say what I thought you said--you've just said it in such a way that you have (I think?) confused yourself, and me.
Well, if science tells us that matter could not have come from light and heat,
the above is what you say science tells us; and I agree, but here's where the confusion begins: the below qoute is something that science would have also said, but this is contradicting your above qoute.
and that matter did come from light and heat in the big bang,
No, it did not. | |
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 3/5/2006 5:46:29 PM | You did say what I thought you said--you've just said it in such a way that you have (I think?) confused yourself, and me.
Well, if science tells us that matter could not have come from light and heat,
the above is what you say science tells us; and I agree, but here's where the confusion begins: the below qoute is something that science would have also said, but this is contradicting your above qoute.
and that matter did come from light and heat in the big bang,
No, it did not.
As I understand it according to science no matter existed in the singularity that started the big bang, only light and heat, and yet when the singularity expanded to produce the physical Universe, matter was created. So the question is how? This is the scientific contradiction that I’m referring to that suggests that there is a creator who exists outside the laws of science. This makes sense because if God created the laws of science, he doesn’t necessarily have to abide by them. I think the laws of science may just be something like God’s preferred way of doing things.
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A is A
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Joined: 8/16/2004
Msg: 274 | |
| Does god exist?
Posted: 3/7/2006 4:31:35 PM |
As I understand it
There in lies the problem--your understanding. At the point where the observed universe has its cosmic orgasm (the big bang), all matter and energy was at an intense temperature and density! Of course, none of this is actually observable, but rather extrapolated logically from what we observe today, regressively.
For there to be heat and light, there must be matter that is causing it. In an earlier post, I mentioned that light is the result from proton-electron annihilation. If this is what is known about light, then it precludes there ever being a time where there is light while there is absolutely no matter.
If I were you, I’d check out a few concepts in google: cosmogony--which is what you are doing with the other concept I want you to research—cosmology. You are cosmogonizing (invented word) with cosmological knowledge—not that there’s anything wrong with that—but the two are not one and the same.
But this aside--if it’s not too much trouble--I would like you to address some of my points and questions, or am I to take it that you will continue to skirt issues, which you feel, cannot be addressed sufficiently? | |
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 3/9/2006 8:08:28 AM | | I think he does and all of those believers no matter what religion are all praying to the same God doesn't matter what your religion calls him. | |
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