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| Does god exist?
Posted: 12/10/2005 1:06:17 AM | Your words waste and decay
nothing you say reaches our ears
anyway..
Courtesy Muktananda Sianora...Tales from Hell enistic Mystics | |
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 12/10/2005 1:21:36 AM | nothing but venom spews from thee pie hole
have we soared with thee birds?
have we wallowed with thee swine?
i will continue to question thy self
i will seek continuity
i will dabble in the abstract
i will fear nothing
not even thine self | |
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 12/10/2005 1:31:00 AM | When it comes to the possibility of God's existence, the Bible says that there are people who have seen sufficient evidence, but they have suppressed the truth about God. On the other hand, for those who want to know God if He is there, He says, "You will seek me and find me; when you seek me with all your heart, I will be found by you." Before you look at the facts surrounding God's existence, ask yourself, If God does exist, would I want to know Him?
A God that created everything you see gave you the very breath you breath gives you an uncomprehendable love always regardless of what you have done
For God has sent His son to Die for Your sins and each blow and hit has he taken for you. So that you do not die but see him on that day. That is how much God loves you.
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 12/10/2005 2:22:52 AM | No more turning away
From the weak and the weary
No more turning away from the coldness inside
Just a world that we all must share
It's not enough just to stand and stare
Is it only a dream that there'll be
No more turning away..........
From the Dark Night of the ArSoul... | |
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mako28
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Joined: 11/25/2005
Msg: 105 | |
| Does god exist?
Posted: 12/10/2005 4:43:09 PM | | from what I can tell, this topic has gone from a debate to a game. Nothing has been said in the last two pages. I don't pretend to be a perfect Chistian...I was a late bloomer. It was conversations like this that kept me away. I wanted to "see" proof. Then the right people came into my life...you can say Christ did. Either way, it is faith that makes religion stronger then proof. Proof would do more harm. It is the question that keeps people in line...the chance. Faith is stronger than sciences' definition of proof. I'd debate anyone on this topic. But lets see if we can get this topic away from the "did not, did too" format it has taken. | |
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 12/10/2005 5:01:10 PM | i wasn't aware that threads were REQUIRED to be 'debates'
a question was posed
Does god exist?
answer: NObody KNOWS | |
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mako28
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Joined: 11/25/2005
Msg: 107 | |
| Does god exist?
Posted: 12/10/2005 5:15:52 PM | Does god exist?
I know. If you don't, that's okay.
As far as a debate is concerned. Why be here if you don't want a conversation? Everyday people say what they believe...very few ever listen to others and even less think about it. Too many people are in love with themselves to give consideration. I have seen 20 different quotes from Einstein, scripture, and various book plugs. Have your own opinion, not someone else's. That is what I want from this thread. Thats how it began. | |
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 12/10/2005 5:27:01 PM |
Either way, it is faith that makes religion stronger then proof. Proof would do more harm. It is the question that keeps people in line...the chance. Faith is stronger than sciences' definition of proof.
I would have to disagree with you there. It is true that faith makes people hold onto concepts much more than fact, but this doesn't mean it's any stronger than actual proof (from an epistemological perspective). I guess it could come down to a question about whether truth is more important than consistency...
Personally, I value truth. Therefore I demand evidence for acceptance of a Theistic worldview. This is especially true when acceptance of said worldview can compromise other aspects of reality that I hold true by logical investigation, such as Objective Morality (Things are moral because God says so? Some of the things he says don't jive with logic, such as Homosexuality being wrong, etc.).
To me, the fear of Hell is a very bad reason to follow God and despite the numerous attempts of Apologists to explain other reasons for following God with the given circumstances [ie. logical arguments for God] I still see it coming back down to Pascal's Wager again... | |
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mako28
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Joined: 11/25/2005
Msg: 109 | |
| Does god exist?
Posted: 12/10/2005 5:49:35 PM | Great reply. Very smart and thoughtful. I must admit first however, you seem smarter than me...so excuse me for being a little simple here.
Logical investigation. To me, logic seems to be like common sense. We all have it but we're never surprised what people make out of it. Because something is right or logical to person A. doesn't make it right for B. Where is the seat of logic? What is right and who determines it? One could say popular opinion. I just can't go along with that. I may struggle with some of the rights and wrongs that are given to me...but I do my best. It seems logical to me that there is an absolute right and wrong.
When I was young, I shunned religion. Threatening me to believe with Hell as the alternative. I think this is the way weak people try to grow power...with threats. And I still do. So I will side with you on having Hell be the motivation. Love is. Jesus wasn't surrounded by people who believed in him, who thought as he did. He was with the non-believers. And he wasn't threatening them...he was showing them true love regardless. This is how you spread a message. Many religions have seem to forgotten this simple fact. | |
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 12/10/2005 6:25:58 PM | "logic seems to be like common sense."
Well, not really. Logic, in relation to debate, is more about internal consistency. Productive critical analysis of an argument must remain internally consistent, or nothing is accomplished. You are probably familiar with the term "non sequitur." This is an amusing logical fallacy. If you were to state "Dogs are carnivores," and I responded, "Dogs are not carnivorous, because the sky is blue." That would offer nothing productive as a rejoinder. It does not address the premise, so it has no internal consistency in the argument. Ad Hominem is a common logical fallacy. If you state that "theft is destructive to society," and I respond "yeah, but you stole a magazine when you were 16," that is not internally consistent to the argument. Again, it does not address the premise of the argument, but instead diverts it to the person making the argument (actually this is particularly ad hominem tu quoque.) There are many logical fallacies that violate this need for internal consistency in order to carry out a productive debate, and you can see them routinely employed in the forums here. Common sense, on the other hand, is more the ability to extrapolate reasoned daily decisions from the pool of knowledge available in ones culture. Just for a little levity- the following excerpt is from a brilliant Monty Python sketch, and it sort makes the point about logic and debate.
Man: I came here for a good argument.
Mr Vibrating: No you didn't, you came here for an argument.
Man: Well, an argument's not the same as contradiction.
Mr Vibrating: It can be.
Man: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a definite proposition.
Mr Vibrating: No it isn't.
Man: Yes it is. It isn't just contradiction.
Mr Vibrating: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
Man: But it isn't just saying "No it isn't".
Mr Vibrating: Yes it is.
Man: No it isn't, an argument is an intellectual process... contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
Mr Vibrating: No it isn't.
Man: Yes it is.
Mr Vibrating: Not at all.
Man: Now look!
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 12/10/2005 7:06:11 PM | Allow me to share something with you all from: "The Soft Cell" (copyright/owner 1990)
SCENE 1.
INT. SOUND FX: A HUMAN HEART BEATS
FADE OUT:
OTHER #1: (CLOSE) We are changing - what can it mean?
ONE #2: It means we are drawing near to birth.
OTHER #1: (LOW) If the choice was mine I would live here forever.
ONE #2: We must be born - it happened to all the others.
OTHER #1: (Frightened) I do not want to be born.
ONE: #2: But, might not there be a life after birth?
OTHER #1: How can that be? Don't we have to shed our life cord and blood tissues?
Have you ever talked to anyone who has been born? Has anyone re- entered the womb after birth…? No. If the purpose of conception and
growth is that it ends in birth, then our life here is absurd. There is NO
Mother!
ONE #2: I know you’re wrong. Someone is feeding us, watching over us. That
someone is Mother.
OTHER #1: (Aggressively) We get our nourishment; our world has always been here.
ONE #2: No, be still – what are you saying? Think - someone or something had to
bring us here. It couldn't have happened by accident… could it?
OTHER #1: You can't tell me anything I don't already know. Face the facts One… if
as you say, there is a Mother - where is She? Have you ever seen Her?
Does she talk to you? You invented a Mother because it satisfied a need…
(Fade voice here)…made you feel happy, secure... | |
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 12/10/2005 10:16:16 PM | Songs a side for now...Lets take a tiny look around you.....
Looking......
Ok now see those tribal people? I can assure you they knew there is a God.
What about all those people who know God and experienced His love are they being selfish? I hope not. Expressing it is something that takes a time to develop and a learning curve you get from the Holy Spirit.
What about all those people who foolishly say the Lord's name in Vain? Ever wonder how they come to know His name and may not even be aware that they are sinning?
There is a universal belief in God. And in the earliest histories and legends of people all around the world, the original concept was of one God, who was the Creator. An original high God seems once to have been in their consciousness.
Now here is another angle Man goes to the moon before he even understands Himself. Ok now this is a bit wierd but do you believe there was men on the moon? Seems a bit hard to believe doesn't it. Is it just as hard to believe that God created the world and all you see in it? Look at how complex we are and cannot figure out the simple common cold remidy. Our brain another mysterious wonder that cannot be explained yet, God has worked it out so well and made the Living planet so complex that we are unable to get the jist of it.
Look at the Oil spills and how things in the ocean have changed to accomidate it, or repair it slowly. Or just the complexity that there are fish in the water and water freezes and the ice is on top. What about the wonderful light of the moon and sun and it warming feeling? the stars that show light? alll this was created by His Word.
If you can tell me how this all came to be without a God I'll have to hand it to ya.
There are better subjects that we can all look into with a satisfying feeling of learnig of Him rather than doing this that try to prove or deny Him.
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 12/10/2005 10:26:59 PM |
Ok now see those tribal people? I can assure you they knew there is a God.
What about all those people who know God and experienced His love are they being selfish? I hope not. Expressing it is something that takes a time to develop and a learning curve you get from the Holy Spirit.
What about all those people who foolishly say the Lord's name in Vain? Ever wonder how they come to know His name and may not even be aware that they are sinning?
There is a universal belief in God. And in the earliest histories and legends of people all around the world, the original concept was of one God, who was the Creator. An original high God seems once to have been in their consciousness.
Conceptualizations of God doesn't imply God's existence. One could easily propose that such an idea shows a "God of the Gaps" in which supernatural entities were developed to explain phenomena they couldn't at the moment.
Woah there! The original ideas of the supernatural were not Monotheistic. In fact all religions were pretty much Monistic and Animistic (Hinduism, Native American religions). It wasn't until the development of Judaism that Monotheism actually made a significant surfacing.
Now here is another angle Man goes to the moon before he even understands Himself. Ok now this is a bit wierd but do you believe the was men on the moon? Seems a bit hard to believe doesn't it. Is it just as hard to believe that God crwated the world and all you see in it? Look at how complex we are and they cannot figure out the simple common cold remidy. Our brain another mysterious wonder they cannot explain yet God has worked it out so well and made the Living planet so complex that we are unble to get the jist of it.
Look at the Oil spills and how things in the ocean have changed to accomidate it, or repair it slowly. Or just the complexity that there are fish in the water and water freezes and the ice is on top. What about the wonderful light of the moon and sun and it warming feeling? the stars that show light? alll this was created by His Word.
This sounds like an argument from Incredulity, which is a fallacy since it simply says God exists because you cannot fathom a natural creation.
If you can tell me how this all came to be without a God I'll have to hand it to ya.
These threads are just debate things to try and quash the idea of God, I woould much rather help develop the idea's of what God has done or is going to do than prove mindless little games on here always. To be honest.
As a Christian do you not think there are many that have questions regarding the Gospels or the Word itself. Perhaps the Laws or even the trinity.
These were better subjects that we can all look into with a satisfying feeling of learnig of Him rather than doing this that try to prove or deny Him.
Physical laws developed from a Singularity? That's what I would suppose...
In order to have fruitful discussion of the ways of God with all the members of this board, one must first prove the existence of a God. | |
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 12/10/2005 11:14:17 PM | It is not to me prove but allow me to point out somethings many seem to take forgranted, a true common trait of many.
If a person opposes even the possibility of there being a God, then any evidence can be rationalized or explained away. But for myself I know God exists and some of these thoughts came to me wondering of Him, and what the Bible said. It really is not my place to prove God to you, It will be God himself one day. I do not wish to tell you all the things i have learnt through many others but just a thought for you to consider.
God's thoughts, personality, and attitudes can only be known if God chooses to reveal them. All else would be human speculation. We are at a loss if God does not wish to be known. But God wants us to know Him and has told us in the Bible all we need to know about His character and how to relate to Him. This makes the reliability of the Bible an important consideration.
Archaeological findings continue to confirm rather than refute the accuracy of the Bible. For example, an archaeological find in northern Israel in August 1993 confirmed the existence of King David, author of many of the Psalms in the Bible. The Dead Sea Scrolls and other archaeological discoveries continue to substantiate the historical accuracy of the Bible.
The Bible was written over a 1500-year span, by 36 different authors, in different locations and on separate continents, written in three different languages, covering diverse subject matters at different points in history. Yet there is an astounding consistency in its message. Throughout the entire Bible the same message appears:
- God created the world we live in, and created us specifically to have a relationship with Him.
- He deeply loves us.
- We have sinned and are under God's judgement, in need of His forgiveness.
- God provided a way for our sins to be forgiven.
- He asks us to receive His forgiveness and have a relationship with Him that will last eternally. Along with this central script, the Bible specifically reveals God's character. Psalm 145 is a typical summary of God's personality, thoughts and feelings toward us. If you want to know God, here He is.
Humm...Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God.
Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets. None of them ever claimed to be equal to God. Surprisingly, Jesus did. That is what sets Jesus apart from all the others. He said God exists and you're looking at Him. Though He talked about His Father in heaven, it was not from the position of separation, but of very close union, unique to all humankind. Jesus said that anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father, anyone who believed in Him, believed in the Father. He said, "I am the light of the world, he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." He claimed attributes belonging only to God: to be able to forgive people of their sin, free them from habits of sin, give people a more abundant life and give them eternal life in heaven. Unlike other teachers who focused people on their words, Jesus pointed people to himself. He did not say, "follow my words and you will find truth." He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me."
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 12/11/2005 3:39:49 AM | | In order to be subjective about the possibility that God exists we need to take a step back from the Bible and view those other possibilities. Just to go on the written word alone is not enough. If you view mankind’s beginnings through Biblical accounts it becomes very narrow. It has its place but that's all. The 'Biblical God' (as an offering and of dubious account) does NOT take account of many things but asks for faith; given freewill it fall back in on itself like an Indian Giver, i.e. it offers the TRUTH but it takes from mankind the promise of heaven if not believed. In light of this, why would God be an Indian Giver? | |
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 12/11/2005 4:23:10 AM |
why would God be an Indian Giver?
God is God he does not need our permission in his dealings with mankind. You want God to be on your terms it seems to me..And as the bible says :-
Isiah 55:8 "My thoughts," says the LORD, "are not like yours, and my ways are different from yours.
55:9 As high as the heavens are above the earth, so high are my ways and thoughts above yours. | |
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 12/11/2005 6:12:43 AM | | God is a state of mind. Science is a state of ever changing facts. IMO | |
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 12/11/2005 7:33:52 AM |
Isiah 55:8 "My thoughts," says the LORD, "are not like yours, and my ways are different from yours.
55:9 As high as the heavens are above the earth, so high are my ways and thoughts above yours.
Which tells us what? Nothing that I can comprehend, except that the indication for these quotes are clandestine and require faith, thus nothing positive I'm sorry to say. | |
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 12/11/2005 7:39:50 AM | what its actually impying SkypoetInflight is why the hell would you think that if there is a creator he would be thinking along the lines you or I do?? | |
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 12/11/2005 7:43:50 AM | God spoke to me; therefore God exists. I know you people don't believe me - and that doesn't matter to me. If he spoke to you people, you'd probably run to the nearest loony bin; scared to the willies.
I first realized he can speak to you 36 years ago. I asked a specific question. He didn't answer in words as we know them. But he answered immediately.
He spoke his own language - and if you try really hard, you'll see his words too.
He still speaks to me; I'm a bit bad at listening, really hearing, recognizing, or paying attention.
Like when the grandbaby speaks. I am so glad she has such a bright little mind that I don't seem to hear the words, just the string of noise.
When my husband was dying a year ago, a phrase of insight he imparted was, in relation to how to live my life and my future..."Pay Attention". I then started hearing other people tell me that. I'd even hear those words on TV and in sympathy cards and everywhere.
So, Ok Don, Thank You - I'm trying....
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 12/11/2005 9:37:41 AM |
God spoke to me; therefore God exists.
etc.....
"Been there, Heard Him.."
Amen to you Ashley   | |
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 12/11/2005 11:26:47 AM |
If a person opposes even the possibility of there being a God, then any evidence can be rationalized or explained away.
However, I do not oppose the possibility of a God/Goddess. That is why I'm an Agnostic Atheist (also known as a Weak Atheist/Negative Atheist/etc..). In fact, all I require is this:
Prove that it is more logical to accept the existence of God then to deny it.
But for myself I know God exists and some of these thoughts came to me wondering of Him, and what the Bible said. It really is not my place to prove God to you, It will be God himself one day. I do not wish to tell you all the things i have learnt through many others but just a thought for you to consider.
If God proved himself to me there would be no problem. However, to this date he hasn't. This is what conflicts with his wish for all to be saved.
God's thoughts, personality, and attitudes can only be known if God chooses to reveal them. All else would be human speculation. We are at a loss if God does not wish to be known. But God wants us to know Him and has told us in the Bible all we need to know about His character and how to relate to Him. This makes the reliability of the Bible an important consideration.
This perhaps represents one of the biggest problems of Theism. If we cannot come to know God through any other way then by him, then what's the point in even discussing him or even accepting his existence? Surely if there was any evidence in the universe that indicated his existence, then we wouldn't need him to tell us. This means there is no way for any Atheist to be shown that God exists unless God himself does the work. I once again reference the fact that God wants all to be saved. What about those who died Atheists? Why didn't God present evidence of his existence? Maybe you would say they were Strong Atheists and refused to accept God on any level, but there have been people who died Agnostic Atheists as well. What about them? Considering that an Agnostic Atheist allows for the possibility of God, then how could God not convince him?
Positing the Bible as evidence is problematic because... what about the Talmud? The Qur'an? The Sutras? Why are there so many other dictates of supposed Gods and Goddesses around as well as dictates of Monistic forces? We cannot accept the Bible as sufficient evidence, even accounting for minor proofs of figures within the book, because that many other books have proofs as well.
God spoke to me; therefore God exists.
This could be a proof for God. One on hand it could stem from illness, but simply going to ones doctor and getting a checkup already takes care of that issue. If you don't have any mental imbalances or physical problems with the brain, then how could it be illness? Doesn't work for others as there are other confounds, but for yourself? Sufficient evidence.
Once again though, why doesn't this happen for everyone? People don't believe it? Follow the method I've shown. It will lead one to decide whether God actually spoke to you, or for some reason you are hearing voices even though you are completely healthy. Which is more likely? It should work at least for Agnostic Atheists, but this doesn't happen. Once again, why? | |
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 12/11/2005 11:38:57 AM |
This could be a proof for God. One on hand it could stem from illness, but simply going to ones doctor and getting a checkup already takes care of that issue. If you don't have any mental imbalances or physical problems with the brain, then how could it be illness? Doesn't work for others as there are other confounds, but for yourself? Sufficient evidence.
This is the very reason why he will not reveal himself to you if he did you would simply dismiss it. Instead he send people to inform you. This you apparently dismiss also. So what would it take to convince you? From what Ive read if he spit in your hair you would not believe it happened. and would probably argue their was a logical explanation. | |
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 12/11/2005 11:53:48 AM | The fact that you do not wish to understand the very words of God will make things alot more difficult for oneself.
But in this case there is otherways to provide a point of view
The Earth its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter. Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.
The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.
And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet it restrains our massive oceans from spilling over across the continents.
Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:
It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.
Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.
Water is also chemically inert. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.
Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.
Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.
Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.
Your brain registers emotional responses, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.
The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.8 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. A brain that deals with more than a million pieces of information every second, while evaluating its importance and allowing you to act on the most pertinent information...can we say mere chance brought about such an astounding organ?
Only a mind more intelligent and knowledgeable than humanity could have created the human brain.
Only touching on a few amazing aspects of our world: the Earth's position to the sun, some properties of water, an organ of the human body. Could any of these have come about by chance?
When one considers the intricacies of our life and universe, it is reasonable to think that an intelligent, loving Creator provided for everything we need for life. The Bible describes God as the author and sustainer of life.
God will pove himself to you, but maybe too late for some or they would have wished to have known Him long before. This is the choice you have. But He will reveal Himself it really is up to you when either you seek him or He will come to save you from self destruction for He does love everyone and does not wish for them to perish.
Do you want to begin a relationship with God and actually know you are accepted by Him?
This is your decision, no coercion here. But if you want to be forgiven by God and come into a relationship with Him, you can do so right now by asking Him to forgive you and come into your life. Jesus said, "Behold, I stand at the door [of your heart and knock. He who hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him
God views your relationship with Him as permanent. Referring to all those who believe in Him, Jesus Christ said of us, "I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand."
One can conclude that a loving God does exist and can be known in an intimate, personal way.
God says, "I have loved you with an everlasting love, therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you." This is God, in action.
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| Does god exist?
Posted: 12/11/2005 12:11:05 PM | | He/She's life Dei Gratia, but not as you know it. | |
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