|
|
|
|
|
| God exist does Posted: 12/11/2005 12:51:20 PM | Pardon Sky? I do not uderstand what you are implying. Please explain .
He/she ?? not as I know? The one who knows everything about me is God more so than I. God also knows all about you better than you thought.
Now if you think you know what my understanding of God is I would say great but how do you know it would be not as I know it. This mmakes no sense Sky.
 | |
|
| Does god exist? Posted: 12/11/2005 5:28:49 PM |
This is the very reason why he will not reveal himself to you if he did you would simply dismiss it. Instead he send people to inform you. This you apparently dismiss also. So what would it take to convince you? From what Ive read if he spit in your hair you would not believe it happened. and would probably argue their was a logical explanation.
I don't understand how you came to this conclusion. I just said this would be evidence for God's existence (for me as a person). It wouldn't be evidence for everyone else, because for all they know I could be lying.
Let me rephrase what I said in my last post: If God personally talked to me and I could verify by a doctor I wasn't suffering from a mental illness, then I would have to take his words as truth and thus believe in God.
That's all I meant. I'm following Hume in his suggestion that God's existence can be proven by an event so unusual, the denial of this event as an act of God is more unlikely than had it been done by God. | |
|
| God exist does Posted: 12/11/2005 5:49:19 PM |
But in this case there is otherways to provide a point of view The Earth its size is perfect.
Technically, it's not. It's not a perfect circle, but a spheroid.
The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter. Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life. The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.
The style of this argument is faulty. You're trying to point out a specific conformation of matter as so unusual that God himself must have made it to be this way. However:
Hume himself refuted this argument by suggesting that the fact that this planet is habitable for life doesn't imply and unusual action. There are many planets, one of them most likely would have rendered life and thus we would be there. The problem with argument then is that the simple fact that this period of time has lead to life implies no unlikely odds because a). There are many other planets and places this could happen, dropping the odds a fair bit and most importantly b). Why would the formation of life be considered an accomplishment or necessity? If the universe didn't form life , but some other very complex arrangement of matter, even rarer than life itself, should we conclude that it must have been designed by God, simply because of it's general probability? That's the key component this argument is lacking: necessity.
And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet it restrains our massive oceans from spilling over across the continents. Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life: It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees. Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels. Water is also chemically inert. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body. Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees. Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter. Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.
This is a continuation of your presvious argument, so I'll just say one thing:
1. Couldn't any further development have been spawned by the previous conditions?
Your brain registers emotional responses, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands. The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.8 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. A brain that deals with more than a million pieces of information every second, while evaluating its importance and allowing you to act on the most pertinent information...can we say mere chance brought about such an astounding organ? Only a mind more intelligent and knowledgeable than humanity could have created the human brain.
Assuming everything you said was true, doesn't any aspect of relaity lead to the development of something with astronomical odds? As I said before, in addition to likelyhood, there must be an engrained sense of necessity as well. It wasn't a requirement that life form, so why should we look at its formation and say that it's low chance formation leads to a conclusion of intelligent design?
God will pove himself to you, but maybe too late for some or they would have wished to have known Him long before. This is the choice you have. But He will reveal Himself it really is up to you when either you seek him or He will come to save you from self destruction for He does love everyone and does not wish for them to perish.
If he is all loving, he understands my need for evidence of his existence. He will come to me to show himself and then I will come to him to prove myself worthy of heaven.
Any less and we must question why an all loving God would design this kind of system in the first place.
I guess another fundamental problem with the particular branch of Christian theology is it's value of faith. It should NOT be faith which gets you to heaven but works alone (The Apologetic site Tektonics at least agrees with me somewhat as it shows that actual meaning of "faith" in the bible wasn't belief wihtout evidence, but sticking by God in the face of adversity, something any person who is worth their salt should do if God truly does exist).
So long as people believe that Faith (in the conventional sense) is what gets people to heaven, there will be tremendous problems between the different types of people. | |
|
Tastey
| Joined: 12/3/2005 Msg: 129 | |
| Does god exist? Posted: 12/11/2005 6:41:42 PM | | i think the question should be how can God not exist | |
|
| God exist does Posted: 12/11/2005 6:56:43 PM |
If he is all loving, he understands my need for evidence of his existence. He will come to me to show himself and then I will come to him to prove myself worthy of heaven.
Uhmmm...He already did...about 2000+ years ago...and "The Holy Spirit" left behind for us, still calls...
So, ball is in your court...believe what is written...or not... | |
|
| God exist does Posted: 12/11/2005 7:09:11 PM |
I don't understand how you came to this conclusion. I just said this would be evidence for God's existence (for me as a person). It wouldn't be evidence for everyone else, because for all they know I could be lying.
Let me rephrase what I said in my last post: If God personally talked to me and I could verify by a doctor I wasn't suffering from a mental illness, then I would have to take his words as truth and thus believe in God.
That's all I meant. I'm following Hume in his suggestion that God's existence can be proven by an event so unusual, the denial of this event as an act of God is more unlikely than had it been done by God.
I came to this conclusion by your own words. You by saying you would verify by a doctors statement show you lack the essential ingredient to hearing God.....FAITH.... You apparently lack this necessary and vital attribute. Because only with faith can you truly believe. Search deep with in your soul not as an adult but as a child this blind faith is what will open doors for you. Jesus said "Suffer the little children to come unto me such is the kingdom of heaven" Only in the innocence can we open our hearts to him. The problem is we are too smart for our own good.
 | |
|
| God exist does Posted: 12/11/2005 9:18:15 PM |
Uhmmm...He already did...about 2000+ years ago...and "The Holy Spirit" left behind for us, still calls...
So, ball is in your court...believe what is written...or not...
Of course, I was referring to proof of God's existence by parity of my example, but even accepting a literal statement:
Reading a book isn't reveling himself to me. I need direct communication, so it must be through miracle (or supernatural ways). Simply positing a book isn't useful, because I can turn the same thing to you...
Why don't you embrace Brahman? Is it not made clear in the Bagvad Gita? Is this not enough for faith?
So I need that supernatural interference. We hear about who encountered it and changed their lives, they wern't asking for God to do it, but it still happened... That's what I require.
I came to this conclusion by your own words. You by saying you would verify by a doctors statement show you lack the essential ingredient to hearing God.....FAITH.... You apparently lack this necessary and vital attribute. Because only with faith can you truly believe. Search deep with in your soul not as an adult but as a child this blind faith is what will open doors for you. Jesus said "Suffer the little children to come unto me such is the kingdom of heaven" Only in the innocence can we open our hearts to him. The problem is we are too smart for our own good.
I can see this is where we will part ways then. Faith is a last resort for me, as I strive for truth. I will search for this in its most solid form and progress downwards untill I attain it. Seeing as through logic I attained a viable worldview which is a natural one (A methodological Naturalist/ Metaphysical Naturalist standpoint). There's no reason to throw away what is a completely logical pathway for me to embrace another lacking any evidence and stability.
Revelation by miracle would establish an ultimate truth for which I would embrace, but I will stick with the truth that has the most evidence for it. Faith lacks both logic and evidence, so it doesn't meet my standard of Truth. | |
|
| God exist does Posted: 12/11/2005 11:35:27 PM | | If He didn't want us to question His exsistance, then why did He give us the ability to reason? | |
|
| God exist does Posted: 12/11/2005 11:43:08 PM | Reading a book isn't reveling himself to me. I need direct communication, so it must be through miracle (or supernatural ways). Simply positing a book isn't useful, because I can turn the same thing to you...
Well Kid, then you'll have a long wait with your closed minded views.
Reading and Studying 'The' Bible is but one of the best ways to get to know Him... Try Prayer; ernest, deep, sincere prayers too...
Also, there are those who claim 'God' speaks to them; Even most Christians tend to think that fringe element should be institutionalised for their own good.
But, consider this: You actually 'hear' the voice of God speak to you someday soon; Who then will you tell of your friends, that would stop and believe you?
What proof could YOU give that it actually happened to YOU? | |
|
| Does god exist? Posted: 12/11/2005 11:56:50 PM | If God doesn't exist, then what is existence? Is the universe just physical? What about quantum physics? Is the universe circular? Meaning without beginning and without end? If it is, as many scientists believe, then how did the concept come to be? If you don't like the word God, how about Supreme Being or Supreme Intelligence? Can there be life without a giving or originating force? If so, how did all everything come to be? If all sprung up without God, then what is being? Is being an illusion? Are we simply space recognizable only by some force that holds together enough nothingness to be perceptible?
Before denying God, answer some of the above questions logically! | |
|
| Does god exist? Posted: 12/12/2005 5:56:10 AM | to Mewtwo: "This means there is no way for any Atheist to be shown that God exists unless God himself does the work." I have to differ with that statement. In my case God had been showing himself for years surely to you too, but I didn't want to see. I didn't open my mind to him. I had a brick wall. Not God. As I said, he speaks differently than you and I do with these typed words and our voices. His voice is like a sunset, sunrise, fox that stops to ponder you.
These things don't speak in our language either; but because you see them, albeit you don't touch them, you do believe in them.
You believe in them because they represent some formula you can compute. But what of love. A quickened heartbeat, not from sex, but pure love for another. You have all the answers for that too.
I believe I am loved, because I have experienced love. Not because of a formula; but because I feel it. I question it. It has been given to me.
My parents gave me food and shelter and loved me. So I respect them. I love them back for what they have done for me. I trust in the truths they imparted to me. I am also a parent to my step daughter whom I did not give birth to, but who needs guidence and love.
God is also my parent. I can trust him and hope to be open minded enough to grasp some knowledge from him.
I understand that you don't get it. You think a Christian is mentally impaired. The night I talked to God / or actually asked him questions - he answered. When he spoke to me, I asked several of the other people there if they saw what I saw - they did. So I guess, while they didn't know I had asked the question; they were witness to the answer.
God doesn't do all the work in the relationship, you have to participate too. It's like a conversation. Both have to do some speaking or it's not a conversation.
The night I "talked" to God and he talked back: I was in a natural setting, outside at the edge of a cliff overlooking a river. There were two mountains on the other side of the river. I had a lot of conversation that night, questions of God. I poured my heart out. (all this of course in myself, as there were others around.) I told him I knew I was imperfect and that I wanted to be a better person, if he could see it in his way to help me. Of course, I said a lot of other things too - and I said these things with ernest. Not shallowly; with honesty.
Then I felt, no exaggeration, I felt clean. Like a wash cloth ran through me and made me squeaky - as in wash the crystal - clean. I have never felt that feeling before or since. I was shocked, dumbfounded. I asked God if this was for real. If it was for real could he show me?
He made a cross appear in "moonlight" (the sun had set); The cross rose up between the two mountains. The cross sat for a long time between the peaks of the two mountains. At least 30 minutes. I'd been out in the woods before and around mountains before and I had never seen anything like this - huge aura / display. I asked others if they saw what I saw. They did, but they did not know then of it's relevance to me Personally.
Note: I had to do as God asked of me. I had to give up myself to him completely and ask forgiveness / cleansing / for my prior sins (as few as I knew to ask forgiveness for). He complied. Then I ask for proof. He complied.
Now, if you want to believe in God; you'll have to make a forward movement. You have to start the conversation.
Do you believe in love when another person tells you they love you? Sure you do. But it takes two to make it awesome.
 | |
|
| God exist does Posted: 12/12/2005 8:11:38 AM | First,
If God doesn't exist, then what is existence?
The same as it is now, except lacking an external purpose.
Is the universe just physical?
It's an interesting question, some take a distinctly phsyical stnace on the universe, but being an Atheist can allow for supernatural, just not anthropomorphic dieties. As for myself, I follow a duelistic world where only one thing phyisically exists (Matter/Energy) and another exists, but not physically (Ephiori) which represents all concepts as well as our own selves.
What about quantum physics? Is the universe circular? Meaning without beginning and without end?
Of course in this case we have to work with what we have in empirical evidence. However, examinations with logic also yield the possibility of uncaused causes to be linked with either God or the universe. In which case, the universe has an existence, but doesn't require a following cause. Both time and space originates at the moment of the universe's conception, so what would be the laws before this existence? Can we say that everything has a cause then? We can't even say that now, much less then... (This is one of the fundamental errors of Aquinas' cosmological argument).
There are other views as well: Plasma Theory, Superstring Theory and such...
If it is, as many scientists believe, then how did the concept come to be? If you don't like the word God, how about Supreme Being or Supreme Intelligence?
I answered the next question. As for the second, an Atheist rejects the concept of any deity for many logical reasons, one of which is the problem of "intelligence" failing to apply completely to the universal worldview.
Can there be life without a giving or originating force?
They're already doing studies on the origin of life. Early work and such, but still promising... such as Abiogenesis.
If so, how did all everything come to be? If all sprung up without God, then what is being? Is being an illusion? Are we simply space recognizable only by some force that holds together enough nothingness to be perceptible?
As I said before: Being is the same as before, just without an external purpose.
I would also add the thrust of your argument is a fallacy: Appeal to Consequences. You don't like the conclusion, thus it must be wrong.
Well Kid, then you'll have a long wait with your closed minded views.
Consider the following: an Atheist only rejects the existence of Gods and Goddesses. They can still be Monists, Animists and Materialists.
A Theist can only follow deities. Can you really conclude that I'm closed minded? Isn't this decision based on the simple fact that I don't accept Chrisianity?
What proof could YOU give that it actually happened to YOU?
If we continue the logic, we see that people cannot prove God to others. Therefore, I wouldn't try to prove it to them. I would accept their choice of Atheism and continue my normal life pattern, but now adjusted for God. | |
|
| Does god exist? Posted: 12/12/2005 8:28:51 AM |
to Mewtwo: "This means there is no way for any Atheist to be shown that God exists unless God himself does the work." I have to differ with that statement. In my case God had been showing himself for years surely to you too, but I didn't want to see. I didn't open my mind to him. I had a brick wall. Not God. As I said, he speaks differently than you and I do with these typed words and our voices. His voice is like a sunset, sunrise, fox that stops to ponder you.
I was following through with previous arguments presented to others. It's not necessarily my own argument. Already I can tell you Tektonics would disagree with what the previous person's argument.
These things don't speak in our language either; but because you see them, albeit you don't touch them, you do believe in them.
I accept them because they can be verified by evidence and logic. Perhaps you could argue Universal Skepticism, but the same is true on all counts and leads to a loss of pragmatic value.
I understand that you don't get it. You think a Christian is mentally impaired.
Woah there! I don't go that far at all! I respect others wishes to follow faith, but I find it lacking myself. It's like Nietzsche: I may not agree with his beliefs, but I'm not going to call him mentally ill because of them. Just because it's illogical to me doesnt mean it must be some kind of illness in others.
That would be Strong Normativism, which is easily disproven. I'm more of an Anti-Normativist myself...
Note: I had to do as God asked of me. I had to give up myself to him completely and ask forgiveness / cleansing / for my prior sins (as few as I knew to ask forgiveness for). He complied. Then I ask for proof. He complied.
This would be one of the problems here. If you accept him and ask for forgiveness, aren't you already accepting that he exists? Wouldn't the search for evidence be biased then? Not to dissuade you from what you believe, I'm just showing you how I would view the situation... | |
|
| Does god exist? Posted: 12/12/2005 9:09:16 AM |
Before denying God, answer some of the above questions logically!
This might pose a little bit dificult as these are not logical questions. But hell I will give it a try.
If God doesn't exist, then what is existence?
Spurios argument. You sumasie that god is existance. Existance is existance. I think therefore I am.
Is the universe just physical?
It depends on what you meen by phsical.The universe is nothn more than particles it is made of and the interactions between these particles, anyting more is metaphysics. For example, our thoughts are not part of the universe, you can not touch them, they are not phisical, hence metaphiscal.
What about quantum physics?
What about quantum physics?
Is the universe circular?
Not entirely certain of this myself, but the current model predicts that the univers is a sadle shaped disk.
Meaning without beginning and without end?
No, it had a begining originator point, and it will eventualy come to an end. The universe is one tiny part of a much larger dimensional fabric, see braine theory for more inofrmation.
If it is, as many scientists believe, then how did the concept come to be?
Most scientist belive it is not infinite. As for where it came from, I can not explain it in just a few pages on here, read about braine theory for more.
Can there be life without a giving or originating force?
That depends on your term of originating force. Would you term the random chance combinations of chemicals as an originating force? Or would the laws that govern the way in which these chemicals combine, constitue an originating force?
If so, how did all everything come to be?
By the chance encounter between two braines at difrent angles meeting and creating a new dimension of space. See brain thory for more.
If all sprung up without God, then what is being?
Being is existance. Do you belive that budists think they wil stop existing if they don't belive in god? Of course you don't, that would be silly.
Is being an illusion?
Ah, intresting question with many posible answers. One answer is that the phisical world is no illusion, but our thoughts, our identities, our sense of self is an illusion.
Another idea is that everything is an illusion and I don't realy exist talking to you, I am just a figment of your imagination so to speak.
Are we simply space recognizable only by some force that holds together enough nothingness to be perceptible?
We are mostly nothingness. aproximately 90% of us is the space between the bits of our atoms. Yet still we speek, we eat, we touch and we play. We are more than our parts, we are the sum of the parts. | |
|
| Does god exist? Posted: 12/12/2005 9:14:52 AM | I don't think god exists. I'm an evolutionist. I believe that cold hard facts of science as opposed o some big book full of stories. And after taking a further look into religion and the roots of it through a class at school i am further convinced fo evolution. For one in many religions they preceive the earth to only be about 50 000 years old.... roughly 7000 thousand years for each of the 7 days. which would indicate that dinosaurs did nto exist and the whole thing is a hoax which would be almost impossible due to potassium argon dating as well as carbon dating. Secondly the holy bible is just a big book of stories. For one hardly any names/events with specific dates in it. There are only a couple of recorded dates that fit with the archaeological evidence based on written record found in Egypt. Also the bible has been translated into every single language in th world over many different years by thousands of different people. Which as anyone knows when anything gets translated meanings are changed and/or lost. With evolution you can see it happen. Just isolate members of a species and you can see how they change over years. When you reintroduce them to each other they are no longer able to reproduce with one another. Each has changed in order to survive in their environment... survival of the fittest and natural selection at work. Mutations are another from of evolution. For a living example now if you can't accept the man from monkeys theory look at the Galapagous Islands... Species are so similar to those of South America same family and genus but too different to reproduce.
I think people make their own purposes in life i don't think we need to be dictated by a story book about how to act and behave. I believe that religion is for the weak minded who just need to follow the crowd. It is not for free thinkers and those who have mind and know how to use it. Just my thoughts on the matter. | |
|
| God exist does Posted: 12/12/2005 9:30:43 AM | Mssg# 132 "Seeing as through logic I attained a viable worldview which is a natural one (A methodological Naturalist/ Metaphysical Naturalist standpoint). There's no reason to throw away what is a completely logical pathway for me to embrace another lacking any evidence and stability."
Well, Paul (New Testament) was a genius/master of "logic" in the Rabbinical Method and in Stoic Greek philosophy. If you need to embrace logic ... check it out. | |
|
| God exist does Posted: 12/12/2005 10:12:24 AM |
Pardon Sky? I do not uderstand what you are implying. Please explain.
Relax Dei...
You haven't watched Star Trek? "It's life Jim, but not as we know it?"
 | |
|
| God exist does Posted: 12/12/2005 1:54:31 PM |
By the chance encounter between two braines at difrent angles meeting and creating a new dimension of space. See brain thory for more.
That would be "branes" not brains BrightOne..And where did the branes originate.. | |
|
| God exist does Posted: 12/12/2005 2:06:26 PM |
Well, Paul (New Testament) was a genius/master of "logic" in the Rabbinical Method and in Stoic Greek philosophy. If you need to embrace logic ... check it out.
I've already checked out various Theistic models of logic. Frankly, I don't see them panning out.
(PS: More like forced actually, my Grade 12 Philosophy Professor was a big time Apologist for the Christian faith... ugh.) | |
|
| God exist does Posted: 12/12/2005 2:20:44 PM | | Well, to start, branes or braines or whatever it is (I'm dyslexic) are outside of the universe. as such they need not have an origin as time is a property of this universe. Kind of like the way god is outside of time but can still efect this universe. You could infact theorise if you wanted that bains are god. But that is leap of faith. This is thoretical phsics with no proof as of yet (and doubtfull if any would be presented in any of our lifestimes) as such, there realy is not to much point in us speculating on it. If it intrests you as a posible explantaion, then by all means read it, but it takes just as much faith to belive that braies are the answer as it does that the FSM is the alfather of the universe. Thats why not to many physcists get into the theoretical phisics side of things, because at present it is still a mater of faith and most physcists prefer not to impinge on maters of faith. | |
|
| |
| Does god exist? Posted: 12/12/2005 4:34:48 PM | | I'm with PoeticPrince47..although I may be a bit biased as i have a large framed photograph of Einstein hanging in my living room~ | |
|
jimyg
| Joined: 1/6/2005 Msg: 148 | |
| Does god exist? Posted: 12/12/2005 9:54:16 PM | I know the prince of persia exist, because you got it out of the bible, and the Holy Spirit bears witness of his existance, and you know he is the one that tried to stop the angel from reaching Daniel, but he couldn't with stand the power of God just like, [I could say you can't], but how can you or wonkavisonless really exist at all, you most likely are computer generated figments of someones imagination, but not mine, or maybe you were created by deralict on another planet much more intelegent than you, and you don't even know you don't exist, what a shame. Can you prove either one of you exist, even if you came to see me I would consider the possibility that you are holograms, activated with sound on light tecnology. What a shame, if only you knew the truth (that is the person of truth the Holy Spirit)! Jimmy | |
|
| Does god exist? Posted: 12/12/2005 9:56:58 PM | | But what if Buddha had the 'truth'? | |
|
| God exist does Posted: 12/12/2005 10:33:19 PM | If you choose to wait until you die to find out the truth, it will be to late. If you want to know the truth now, it is written in the Word of God. No one comprehends the word of God on their own, for the word of God says revelation comes through the Holy Spirit. So the ones who believe in God's word and have belief in him it is because God has chosen them. For the word says we are chosen, we do not chose God ourselves. No seeks God on their own. So, whether people believe or argue about this all day long til they die, does not make God any less. God said "I AM" if you do not believe, He still exist. So it does not matter what we believe or not, He is still here. So, again if you wait to choose to find out the truth until you die, well then that is sad and God weeps for you because his word says that no should perish. Therefore, we have freedom of choice, for in Deuteronomy we have choices set before us, life or death (30:19). No one can find scientific proof because God is in everything and is everywhere, (that is in the bible), and only the ones who see is because they are led by the holy spirit ( for the holy spirit speaks the truth). You may believe what you choose, I am not here to debate anyone, I do not have to defend God's word he is a big boy, but for those who are wanting to know the truth. In the word it says seek and you shall find. ( there is more to that scripture).  | |
|
|
| Page 6 of 13
|
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 |
|