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| | Adults living at home with Mom and DadPage 37 of 44 (4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44) |
but 150 seems low for food.. perhaps a single person maybe could have that low a food bill.. Of course maybe the price of food is cheaper there. idk.
Nope, the cost of food is significantly lower in the states due to the subsidies you give farmers. A lot of Canadians drive across the borders to shop because of this.
You never need clothing or household supplies or anything it seems.
I include cleaning supplies in with groceries. My clothes last forever because I hang everything to dry, so I very very rarely buy anything. I hate shopping anyways.
about 500 square feet.. You can't fit 2 people in them tho
You should see the arrangements people come up with these days :) I've seen ads for 1 bedroom places in downtown Vancouver partitioned up to fit 4+ more students. My current place is about 600 sqf, my last place about half that. | |
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| Adults living at home with Mom and Dad
Posted: 4/19/2012 9:51:06 PM | Nope, the cost of food is significantly lower in the states due to the subsidies you give farmers. A lot of Canadians drive across the borders to shop because of this.
You keep saying this, but you're not factoring in how the food is actually bought. $150 / month assumes about $37 / week on food.
A gallon of milk is over $3, a loaf of bread is $2-3, a piece of meat is $8-10, a can of corn is about $2... this adds up FAST. You keep saying that food is cheaper here, but you are not shopping at a grocery store. Most places in the US don't have the option of anywhere else to buy food. Food is extremely expensive. 1 week worth of food can easily run you up to $100. It's not that we're refusing to live frugal, it's that it's either pay that much for food, or starve to death because there is literally no other option of where to buy the food. To me, eating healthy > impressing some bitch in canada.
When you make a conscious choice to live on 40% of your income, save the rest, and keep a year's worth of expenses in the bank, most problems are pretty easy to fix.
OK.... assuming the $10/hr pay you get around here, for a full time 40 hour / week job... that's 400 / week before tax, 1600 / year. That assumes that before tax, you would have to live on $640 / month. When rent alone is going to cost you over $500, tell me, how the hell are you supposed to cover food, electricity, and transportation to work on at the most, $140 / month?
You keep sticking to this idea of we can fix this easy.... Again, move to NJ, start with nothing, and live. It's mathematically impossible.
Look up apartments in the state... when the average rent for a 1br apartment is around 6-700, you have that, 100 for car insurance (only basic coverage, if you have to finance a car, that goes up by up to 3x the amount for a clean driving record on a male over 25), assuming a tank of gas every week for work, that's another 150-200, we'll use your impossible in the US food price of 150, we'll go with electric heat to only have one bill, so that's about 100/month for heating a 1br.
Without any luxury, we're up to $1100 / month.
Now, using US and NJ's tax... for that 400 every week, 26.64 is Federal income tax, 16.80 is Social Security tax, 5.76 is Medicare tax. So our fedral tax taken out is $49.20. For state, $6 is state income tax, 8.50 for unemployment insurance, 2.24 for disability insurance, 0.24 for Family / Welfare insurance. That's 16.98 taken out for state.
So, before we get our paycheck, we're down to 333.82. Stretch that over 4 weeks, we're at $1335.28 / month.
That leaves $235 / month at what I gave you as a guess of what it costs / month. Now, that's not including a car payment if you have one, phone / internet (which is NOT as cheap as $40 around here... your only choice is taking a package deal, and averaging around 60 / month for DSL, or 100/month for cable). If Obamacare passes, the CHEAPEST option right now for insurance is 100/month for single coverage, which you'll be required to have by law...
Then add in the average student loan payment of 50-100 / month, let's go back to reality where food for the month is easily another 100 / month... ask any adult in the US. We're assuming your car is paid off, and you're living in an area, like almost all of south jersey, where there is just no public transportation at all.
So now we add those expenses, 100 for the cable / phone / internet bundle, 100 for BASIC health insurance, 50 for your student loan, the other 100 from food... and we're at 1450 / month when you only bring home 1335. Even at YOUR price for food, your house is taking more money than we actually make.
You just don't understand living in the US. I don't know how much clearer I can make it that we live in two entirely different countries... But the money just isn't there.... so you know what we do? We live home with parents. But when that's not an option, you do what you have to do to f'n survive. So again, get off your pedestal, realize that not having a bunch of money saved isn't a sign of being irresponsible when you have to actually live in the real world, and shut up.
Like I've been trying to tell you, the average pay in the US is BELOW poverty. That means that a single person, working full time, is still considered poor, because the cost of living is over what you get paid. | |
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| Adults living at home with Mom and Dad
Posted: 4/19/2012 10:28:59 PM |
A gallon of milk is over $3, a loaf of bread is $2-3, a piece of meat is $8-10, a can of corn is about $2... this adds up FAST. You keep saying that food is cheaper here, but you are not shopping at a grocery store.
Well, I don't personally buy milk, bread, meat, or canned/processed crap of any type, so I can't compare there... but soy milk/almond milk is usually around $4+ for half a gallon, and a few years ago before I smartened up and started making my own, I was paying $4-$5 for a loaf of bread. Of course I shop at grocery stores - where else would I go? The moon?
Again, move to NJ, start with nothing, and live. It's mathematically impossible.
If it really is impossible, then it's time to move - duh! Don't choose to live somewhere you can't afford. Just like I don't choose to like in Tokyo, London, New York, Paris, etc. If I had to live in NJ due to someone holding a gun to my head, I would get a roommate, get an apartment near transit, no car, forget hooking up cable entirely, and be intelligent enough not to rack up student loans in the first place. If that wasn't an option, I'd move elsewhere. Actually, I'd probably move elsewhere sooner rather than later, to somewhere with better job prospects. | |
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| Adults living at home with Mom and Dad
Posted: 4/20/2012 6:47:56 AM |
I'm constantly learning ways to be more frugal. I personally do not see your lifestyle as living, you are merely existing. While I will admit that there are many, many things that one can do to cut costs, living so frugally is certainly not my idea of a full and rewarding life.
I will admit that I overspend on a lot of things, but I find that I’m rewarded by life experience when I have guests over for a lavish meal or I renovate and redecorate an area of my house. These are things you’ll never be able to do living like a pauper.
Spending and life require balance… I would no more live your lifestyle than I would the guys that are bemoaning the economy in the US and claiming that it’s so much different than in Canada.
As for arguing responsibility and all that crap… You’re old enough to take the loan, you’re old enough to vote, you’re old enough to be considered an adult… accept the fact that you’ve accrued the debt and no one wants to pay it for you. Settle your debts, then you can move on with life… I can’t imagine carrying a $100k debt with no tangible collateral to show for it. While you can sit there and claim I’m shallow and blah, blah, blah… I really don’t care that I don’t meet your standards. Frankly, you don’t meet mine either.
As for living in an area because of family and having grown up in that city… I feel very strongly about the city in which I live. I wake up every morning and look out my window with a sense of home and belonging. If I had to struggle to make ends meet here, I’d be relocating pdq.
Anywhoo… I’m pretty much done with this thread. It seems that the people that have accrued exorbitant debt don’t believe that it’s their responsibility and others believe that living in squalor is the answer. | |
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| Adults living at home with Mom and Dad
Posted: 4/20/2012 7:11:48 AM | We NEVER said our debt isn't our responsibility. We're saying that the debt we got 10 years ago doesn't mean that we're irresponsible today, and that even with having a debt, we have to do what it takes to survive.
Reading comprehension... you should learn it. And what you don't understand is that to some people, quality of life is more important than having a bunch of money saved. Just like you pointed out about veggie, where living that frugally doesn't feel like living, well, living in another country (because rent and pay doesn't exactly change anywhere else in the US) isn't my idea of living. Giving up all my family and friends so that I can live in a place like canada isn't how I want to spend my life.
I'm making it. I'm doing fine. I'm very happy with my life.
Yes, you are shallow. All you're focused on is how much money I have.
You can be happy while still putting almost everything you make into the house you live in. That's the difference between you and me. You see a need to be gaining money every paycheck, even if it means giving up everyone that I know, and means only seeing my family once or twice a year... I don't. I know that if I lost my job and home, that I can stay with family for 1 or 2 months until I'm working again (while paying them to stay there (that's why I pay money into unemployment every paycheck)). If everything goes wrong I can still survive. So to me, there's nothing wrong with budgeting myself to live where I do and have the stuff that I do.
This is why people are attacking you. To you, everything is about how much money you have in the bank, and the choices you made when you were 20 immediately reflect the kind of person you are when you're 30 or 40. And I DO have something to show for my debt, it just became that competitive of a job market that getting that first job takes a long time, just like pretty much every college major in existence. But can you blame us? All through highschool we were told "You go to college then you get a good job". Nobody warned us that it's very common to get out of college and still be working as a server for the next 10 years because there's just no jobs... When you get out of "dabbling" and start looking to build an actual career, you'll understand. These good jobs, people don't just quit them like a job at a gas station... These are jobs that people want to spend their life doing, so it takes time for jobs to open up, especially when everyone is demanding experience (if you don't believe me, look online for jobs in any non-medical field in literally any state in the US).
We're not irresponsible, we're just not you. Maybe you should realize that your attitude towards other people is the reason that you're 40 and single.... | |
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| Adults living at home with Mom and Dad
Posted: 4/20/2012 9:11:44 AM |
People do what they have to do for survival. It's no-one's business to judge. NO-ONE makes it on their own. Married people have each other... but if someone is single and is forced by circumstances to move home... everyone judges that person... and usually by the ones who are looking on from the safety of their own circumstances... married people and people who had parents rich enough to set them up with everything they need in life, or whatever the case may be. In short, the ones who have someone for THEM to lean on while adopting a supercilious attitude expecting 0thers to do it alone and judging them harshly if they can't.
I agree with and endorse this statement. It's truly funny how married and people dating wonder how a single person cannot do it on their own. And judging them along the way.
A lot of people have old debt. When they was still struggling to make ends meat...now that they are just making it, people still expect them to pay up all that old debt and still make it. All the while keeping up with new debt.
I spend extra money (after bills) on stuff I enjoy. I could eat frugal every night, but I treat myself on occasion to remind myself what I'm working for. So that I can treat myself every night. | |
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| Adults living at home with Mom and Dad
Posted: 4/20/2012 9:59:41 AM | Where I live we have to pay for little things like electricity, water, home heating, trash pick up, doing laundry…
Oh, right. Probably utilities are included in rent, with laundry facilities kicked in, too, for the heck of it. Or, maybe somebody without a car can lug laundry baskets alone on public transport, and the washers and dryers at the laundromat are free! Or maybe all anybody really needs is creek water, soap you make yourself, a few rocks for washing and drying, and a little elbow grease.
Kinsey Millhone cuts her own hair with fingernail clippers…everybody else can, too. Find an old rusty used one in any sidewalk crack…nail clippers cost money you could be saving!
I live very close to the Canadian border and nobody’s getting good deals on anything on this side. I wasn’t aware that there was an international transportation system, so somebody’s got a vehicle, and somebody’s paying for it. That sounds unnecessarily wasteful, to me. Maybe everybody chips in, and a few shop for the many…kinda like how some folks buy smokes at the rez. Who bothers paying pesky taxes? Pfffft.
I had a honey crisp apple the other day…cost me two bucks. I cut it in half and got two lunches for a buck a piece. Yay, me! Retirement, here I come!
Some people repeatedly taking this (and other, slyly veiled) bait is becoming painful to watch. You really believe someone who tells you that US ‘farm subsidies’ lowers your grocery bill? And that Canadians flock here to scoop up deals? Feed your family for two bucks a meal? Etc., ad nauseam.
Come on! Your life is no one’s business but your own. Quit supplying the ammo.
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| Adults living at home with Mom and Dad
Posted: 4/20/2012 10:08:55 AM | I don't mind if someone's living with their parents, within reason.
If they're taking care of their parents like I do, then I definitely respect them for that. It's not easy looking after your folks, but they looked after us, so it's only fair.
For others they might just be in financial difficulties. Maybe they're back at school and don't need the extra financial burden of rent. Or they may be switching to a new job and keeping their costs down until they're stable.
It's only the ones who live with their parents because they can't function on their own that I have a problem with.
I mean, I can do laundry and clean, and cook... to a degree. :p
I'm perfectly self sufficient.
But I've come across people who have no clue how to turn on a washing machine. Or who never do dishes. Or live off of bread and mustard in their fridge alone. Yeah, those people I won't waste my time with. | |
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| Adults living at home with Mom and Dad
Posted: 4/20/2012 11:05:19 AM |
Ok,I'm somewhat turned off by grown males who still live at home, it would be different if his parent(s) couldn't provide 4 themselves or the guy was disabled, but when he's just moochin off his folks, that's a turn-off, do u agree?
I would date someone living with their parents.....however, it would depend on the circumstances. If the guy is making NO effort whatsoever to support himself, I'd be put off. If he's there to help his parents....that's okay, but if he's there just to be a mooch.....forget it. | |
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| Adults living at home with Mom and Dad
Posted: 4/20/2012 12:21:20 PM | Gads, I must be a sucker for punishment cause here I go again!
Rockstar, for someone that is touting reading comprehension, you certainly seem to be doing a lot of misreading… not to mention the constant ad hominem remarks regarding myself and others on this site.
To be clear… I am “Not Single/Not Looking”. Hell, even if you wanted to send me an email, I have my profile locked down tighter than Fort Knox since I’m not longer here looking for anyone. Also, I don’t sink all of my money into my house… that would be just as bad as someone with $100k in debt that has to work two jobs to make ends meet. I don’t believe in being house poor any more than I believe in being a slave to debt.
I also don’t feel that people are attacking me… well, other than yourself and perhaps one other misguided poster, but in the grand scheme of things, your remarks are like water on a duck’s back baby! Additionally, the choices that are made at 20 ARE relevant if they’re still a financial burden at 30 or even 40 years old.
As for my 'dabbling'... I find it to be very lucrative...  | |
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| Adults living at home with Mom and Dad
Posted: 4/20/2012 4:00:42 PM |
I live very close to the Canadian border and nobody’s getting good deals on anything on this side. I wasn’t aware that there was an international transportation system, so somebody’s got a vehicle, and somebody’s paying for it. That sounds unnecessarily wasteful, to me. Maybe everybody chips in, and a few shop for the many…
You've basically got it - a bunch of people chip in for gas and do a huge shopping trip. Not just for food either - clothes, electronics(my boyfriend bought a Kindle from the states that was $50 cheaper than the exact same thing in Canada), almost everything. I've known people who do the trip every few months, and claim it's worth it financially - I haven't tried it myself.
Feed your family for two bucks a meal? Etc., ad nauseam.
I provided a link to a cookbook(150 recipes) that I personally own that does exactly that, as well as a link to a blog with hundreds of recipes that are also in that price range, both written by American authors shopping in American grocery stores. Are you claiming the several hundred recipes I provided aren't real or something? | |
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| Adults living at home with Mom and Dad
Posted: 4/20/2012 6:13:33 PM | Those recipes were $2 / SERVING. What you're leaving out is the fact that the recipe is still making 4-5 servings of it. They're also not the healthiest choices in food. So, to have a well balanced diet, because my health actually matters to me, it costs more than $2 a meal because you have to buy more than a single serving.
Understand you do not go to the store and buy a serving of chopped meat, you buy a lb of it, it also has a short shelf life. Just a can of corn is $2, and once you open that, you have to use the whole thing, when corn is off of the cob, it'll harden and be uneatable within a day, once you open that can, you lost what is keeping that corn fresh. So your recipe that includes corn, you spent more than the cost of a serving on just one ingredient of it.
I don't know why you don't see the difference between a $2 serving and a $2 meal.
Also, $2 / serving, assuming you only eat 1 serving, 3 meals a day for 30 days is over $150. Just thought I'd point that one out for you.
And lint and veggie... If you two aren't single, don't you think you owe it to the guys in your life to GET OFF OF THE DATING SITE!!!!!!!!!!!!? Forget people living at home, you know how quick of a deal breaker actively logging on to pof is to a lot of people out there? | |
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| Adults living at home with Mom and Dad
Posted: 4/20/2012 6:30:06 PM |
It's only the ones who live with their parents because they can't function on their own that I have a problem with.
I agree. The need to cut that umbilical cord was my generation's need to live on our own. The drive and desire to overcome challenges to establish our independence. We wanted to live on our own terms with our own rules. Some of the younger generation have gotten a little too comfortable living at home. A little hardship is good for personal growth. | |
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| Adults living at home with Mom and Dad
Posted: 4/20/2012 6:53:37 PM |
Those recipes were $2 / SERVING. What you're leaving out is the fact that the recipe is still making 4-5 servings of it. They're also not the healthiest choices in food. So, to have a well balanced diet, because my health actually matters to me, it costs more than $2 a meal because you have to buy more than a single serving.
That's right, you make one dish and get 4 meals out of it, or leftovers to make into different meals. I don't remember linking to anything unhealthy - I cook entirely from fresh ingredients. I tend to use "meal" to mean "serving" - I would say a recipe makes 4 meals rather than 4 servings. Bad habit I guess.
Understand you do not go to the store and buy a serving of chopped meat, you buy a lb of it, it also has a short shelf life. Just a can of corn is $2, and once you open that, you have to use the whole thing, when corn is off of the cob, it'll harden and be uneatable within a day, once you open that can, you lost what is keeping that corn fresh. So your recipe that includes corn, you spent more than the cost of a serving on just one ingredient of it.
That sounds like a good reason not to use canned corn or other canned vegetables. Buy frozen corn instead, or fresh vegetables that last longer, like carrots, and base meals around that. That's how frugal meal planning works - you don't buy small portions of ingredients for individual meals(i.e. one $2 can of corn) unless you want to spend a fortune. You buy large quantities of healthy and cheap base ingredients, plan meals around those, and use pricier items as minor ingredients. You then eat leftovers, or make the leftovers into a new meal - i.e. make a pot of chili, later in the week make burritos out of leftover chili, later use some chili as part of a casserole filling, later make nachos with the last of the chili. Is this a new concept? I've always considered it common sense.
Also, $2 / serving, assuming you only eat 1 serving, 3 meals a day for 30 days is over $150. Just thought I'd point that one out for you.
I was assuming significantly cheaper breakfasts - cereal, bagel, etc.
And lint and veggie... If you two aren't single, don't you think you owe it to the guys in your life to GET OFF OF THE DATING SITE!!!!!!!!!!!!? Forget people living at home, you know how quick of a deal breaker actively logging on to pof is to a lot of people out there?
Like lots of people, we're here for the forums. In my case, my boyfriend is fully aware of my being here, and he gets a kick out of reading threads I post in - especially this one. | |
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| Adults living at home with Mom and Dad
Posted: 4/20/2012 7:02:27 PM | yeah yeah... let's just agree that we live in different countries... PLEASE
Also, lint, what you did in the past is NOT a direct reflection of the person you are today. Just because when I went to college it added up a huge debt, it doesn't mean that I'm not responsible today, and making sure that I'm doing what I can to work on paying that back.
Unless you have a way that I can just pull thousands of dollars out of my ass, a debt that big is going to stick around a few years while I make payments on it. | |
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| Adults living at home with Mom and Dad
Posted: 4/20/2012 8:30:12 PM | You can use my magic wand rockstar, although I keep waiving it around and no money tree has sprouted in my backyard yet.. maybe you'll have better luck??? lol.
I'm still laughing at the 150 a month for food. I can maybe stretch that into 2 weeks..maybe... and I do use fresh, healthy ingredients. that bunch of bananas that lasts longer then a week keeps eluding me tho.. heck in my house a bunch of bananas lasts 3 or 4 days tops. Apples and Oranges.. I buy the 3 or 4 pound bags and they are all eaten within 4 or 5 days too.. so are all the veggies I buy for salads and stuff..Fresh fruits and veggies are not necessarily cheaper, but they are def healthier and taste way better.. (I even cant' stomach the canned stuff truthfully) Also.. giving 1 "serving" of a meal to my son would be equivalent to starving him. 1/2 cup of rice.. my son probably eats that in one mouthful and is searching for more. I stick to one large potato, 1 decent piece of meat (you know a serving of chicken is 4 ounces.. you know how small that is??) and a half a plate of veggies and usually he's in the pantry pouring cereal afterwards. (oh.. healthy cereal no sugar.. that's about 2 bucks a bowl there..hey that meets your criteria i think).. Oh yea.. and I only shop the sale papers and only buy the stuff when it's on a good sale, which means many things are dropped down to a dollar or two in price (excluding meat of course).. even then I can't keep it under that number..
I also kinda agree with the other poster up there.. I am thrifty and frugal and cheap for things, but I also know when to splurge and have a good time. It's no fun to never do anything or to always count the pennies. | |
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| Adults living at home with Mom and Dad
Posted: 4/20/2012 8:33:49 PM | dude let this shit go, You don't have to explain yourself to people. You are accountable for you and Lint is accountable for herself. At the end of the day it comes down to you and the things you continue to do. Forget about other people opinions and stop letting them effect you, stop coveting others people's things and be content with what you have and work with it. If a female don't like you because you're in debt so be it, move on. I still have money to owe back from culinary school as well, you think I give a shit weather a woman doesn't want to date me because I have to pay back my school loan. ( And I only have $300 left to pay back ) and if a female doesn't want to date me because I have $300 dollars in debt, she can go fly a kite. I'm lmao at that female over such a petty thing. You can't be serious X-D
And on this topic note I live with a roommate and moved out of my Mom's but if things were to happen for the worse to my Mom and I had to move back in, so be it. If a female doesn't want to date me because of that, fly a kite.
End of discussion on my part. | |
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| Adults living at home with Mom and Dad
Posted: 4/21/2012 10:36:32 AM |
I'm still laughing at the 150 a month for food. I can maybe stretch that into 2 weeks..maybe... and I do use fresh, healthy ingredients. that bunch of bananas that lasts longer then a week keeps eluding me tho..
I'm a vegan and we eat absolutely zero junk - and about 75% organic. If we cut our weekly grocery delivery service, and stopped buying organic, it would be considerably cheaper.
lso.. giving 1 "serving" of a meal to my son would be equivalent to starving him. 1/2 cup of rice.. my son probably eats that in one mouthful and is searching for more. I stick to one large potato, 1 decent piece of meat (you know a serving of chicken is 4 ounces.. you know how small that is??) and a half a plate of veggies and usually he's in the pantry pouring cereal afterwards.
I wasn't talking about servings in the USDA sense - to me, a serving is a large plate of food that fills a person up. When I make a large casserole or lasagna, I usually get around 6-8 of these "servings" for reference.
Here's another link to a post that involves a week of groceries for a family of 4 for $70/week http://www.hillbillyhousewife.com/40dollarmenu.htm It includes all the recipes, a complete meal plan, and grocery shopping list, and assumes you're starting from a completely empty kitchen. Like EVERY OTHER SOURCE I've given, it's American and based on American stores. | |
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| Adults living at home with Mom and Dad
Posted: 4/21/2012 4:06:48 PM | saturday - Dinner... beans, tomato, and a piece of garlic bread.... That's not exactly what pretty much anyone would call a healthy meal.
Also, multiply that $70 by 4 weeks. What did I quote food for the month at in the US, about 300? Suddenly pretty accurate now, right? | |
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| Adults living at home with Mom and Dad
Posted: 4/21/2012 4:08:46 PM | | It's circumstantial. My ex and I split up and I had put everything I had into our place. I had to move back in with my mother and my brother. But does that mean I will be here for a long time? No. | |
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| Adults living at home with Mom and Dad
Posted: 4/21/2012 4:22:31 PM |
Also, multiply that $70 by 4 weeks. What did I quote food for the month at in the US, about 300? Suddenly pretty accurate now, right?
Actually, you quoted $300 for one person. This is $280 for a family of 4. So, more like the opposite of accurate. | |
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| Adults living at home with Mom and Dad
Posted: 4/21/2012 4:30:59 PM | | No, because it really doesn't matter a jot where a person lives or who they live with. I live at home and I'm 31, and I couldn't care less what anybody else thinks about that or the reasons. They shouldn't matter at all, it's such a trivial matter. | |
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| Adults living at home with Mom and Dad
Posted: 4/21/2012 4:50:38 PM | | What’s REALLY comical is this “concern” is COMPLETELY only in America. ANYWHERE else in the world you go, families typically stay together under one roof. Only here in America is this considered to be a fault/problem. I’ve been fortunate to travel extensively all over the world and I have to say; in this regard we Americans are F*^&ed up. And we have the HIGHEST divorce rate in the world! What does that say about our “family values”? | |
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| Adults living at home with Mom and Dad
Posted: 4/21/2012 8:43:46 PM |
I'm somewhat turned off by grown males who still live at home
A thread by a different name is still the same. Believe it or not, but most men with any self-repect would loath having to live at/move back home with their parents. But circumstance sometimes makes people's choices for them. | |
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