| The worst Christian heresy of all
Posted: 1/3/2006 11:19:41 AM | | Yes, Kytasau I agree, however, will the controvesy faced by the cult/fringe leaders today be controversy 2000 years from now? As it has already happened with Paul, this in itself presents validity to his words. | |
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| The worst Christian heresy of all
Posted: 1/3/2006 11:55:17 AM | Who knows, River loon?
If you look at the beginnings of Christianity, it changed from a Jewish splinter group, to Paul's gentile conversions, to the development of the Holy Trinity, to the Jesus as God/Man nature question. That was within the first 400 years of it's rise.
I'm sure when Jesus was running around the Galilee, he didn't give a hoot whether his nature was God or not...or whether there was a holy spirit comprising the Three. | |
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| The worst Christian heresy of all
Posted: 1/3/2006 1:17:49 PM | | hmmm... well, "Jesus as God/Man nature question" was posed and phophesied throughout thousands of years in the Old Testament before Jesus was running around in the Galilee. Christianity existed in Judaism long before it became the "splinter" group as we know it today. | |
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| The worst Christian heresy of all
Posted: 1/3/2006 2:26:12 PM | Kyta ... Are you suggesting that because there are and have always been religious "nuts" and frauds out there, we should assume that they all are until proven otherwise? Given that, through his tireless efforts to spread the faith in his missionary journeys and letters to various churches, Paul was -- perhaps more than any individual other than Jesus himself -- responsible for the rise of the religion that has arguably dominated the world for centuries ever since, don't you think its fair to give the man a little credit?
Clearly, Paul was a remarkable person, intelligent, articulate, dynamic, extremely dedicated to his cause and possessing tremendous leadership qualities. He hardly comes across as a "wacko" unless one thinks that all religious persons are somewhat "wacko" by virtue of their beliefs in God, "visions", and such -- do you? I don't think that any responsible historian would ever paint him with the "wacko" brush; with all due respect, isn't bringing up the various nutcases that plague religion everywhere a bit of a red herring argument?
If he wasn't a nut -- and it seems clear to me that, whatever faults he may have had, he was anything but that -- we are left to consider two other possibilities: either he genuinely did have a vision and a commission from God or he was an outright fraud. I don't know how one could ever "prove" anything in this respect either to those who choose to believe in his integrity or to those who are incurably skeptical about any and all religious persons.
As mentioned earlier, as interesting as it is to discuss his possible character flaws -- to which he himself frankly admitted -- it's still somewhat marginally relevant to the thread topic unless we're talking about how they relate to his "justification by faith" doctrine. Your theory that Paul espoused this doctrine to gain a larger number of followers by, in effect, lowering the standards for Church membership is interesting but it doesn't really stand up to a careful inspection of Paul's teachings overall. "For He will render unto every man unto his works" .. "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling" .. "Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it .... I do not run aimlessly but I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." These teachings do not accord with the interpretations of his "justification by faith" principle that have been adopted and taught by various Christian groups ever since which suggest that all we have to do is sit back and let Jesus do all the work. Given that Paul frankly admitted to fearing that he could lose his own salvation if he slacked off, how can anyone justly accuse him of being responsible for the "easy Christianity" and "instant salvation" theology that abounds these days? | |
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| The worst Christian heresy of all
Posted: 1/3/2006 5:39:00 PM | So, ArtandSoul...
Where do you believe the 'easy Christianity' and 'instant salvation' theology came from? | |
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| The worst Christian heresy of all
Posted: 1/3/2006 6:51:16 PM |
Where do you believe the 'easy Christianity' and 'instant salvation' theology came from?
It seems to be a misunderstanding and distortion of Paul's "justification by faith" teachings, Kyta. Apparently that was already going on in Paul's lifetime as is evident in the letter of James that combats this type of thinking. Perhaps it really gathered steam with Martin Luther who brandished the "justification by faith" teaching like a sword in his battle with a corrupt Catholic Church hierarchy. Interestingly, Luther is reported to have called the Book of James "an epistle of straw". This book is one of my favorites in the entire Bible. "What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has no works? Can his faith save him? ... Show me your faith apart from your works and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren? ... For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead." Ya gotta love old James!
I'm not sure exactly why Luther disdained the book of James so -- one can perhaps guess that it seemed to refute his views on "justification by faith alone" -- but I have seen that quote in several places. I think even Luther would roll over in his grave if he saw what modern evangelicals and fundamentalists have done with this teaching. They seem to conveniently forget the words of James and the other teachings of Paul when they hammer away on a single line taken from a whole body of teaching. Why they do this, I'm not sure. Many of them are sincerely convinced that this is a true and accurate teaching. Why do you think they do?
The truth is very simple in my mind: works done without faith that amount to little more than trying to do a commercial transaction with God, ie, "if I do these good deeds, promise me a good spot in Heaven", are barren and almost pointless because, left to our own human devices and selfish, egotistical natural personalities, we will never measure up to God's standards or become the type of people He expects us to become. It's like the saying "good is the enemy of great". If you are satisfied with being good, you will never become great. God wants us to become great, ie, not just "nice people" but saints. True faith is the only thing can give us the power to do that. Roughly paraphrasing C.S. Lewis, "if what you call having faith in God does not involve taking the slightest notice of His commandments, it is not really faith at all but mere intellectual acceptance of some theory about Him". Needless to say, we cannot expect such "faith" to save us and must, as James says, "show our faith BY our works". I think that perhaps Paul was trying to correct the idea that by good works alone one could "earn" his way into Heaven. Perhaps he "over-corrected" to a certain extent. Certainly, many others have done so ever since he said those words.
I sincerely believe that this is a Christian "heresy", a distortion of the true teachings of the Bible, and a very destructive one. I must also confess that I take a little joy in taking the fundamentalists to task on this one -- given that so many of them routinely insist that some of my beliefs, eg, that not only those who call themselves Christians can be "saved", are "doctrines of demons"! It seems they have a few skeletons in their own closets and a beam or two that they ought to remove from their own eyes. I hope God can forgive me for taking a little relish in pointing this out to some "foolish fellows"! | |
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| The worst Christian heresy of all
Posted: 1/4/2006 8:22:57 AM | Mmm. ArtandSoul.
I can understand your positioning on good works/faith being paramount on obtaining greatness in god's eyes as that is the Christian paradigm. However, as a buddhist, I commit myself everyday to being loving kindness because it is just and right and there is no longer any other way for me to be. From a christian perspective, I am devoid of 'faith' and my 'works' would seem to be empty. However, that doesn't take away from the impact of the good works. Kind of a juxtaposition, huh? :)
I agree with you that if you do have faith and accept the teaching of Yeshuva ben Joseph, you cannot have one without the other. Why do evangelists intimate otherwise? Because it's easier that way, ArtandSoul to bring in conversions. If they taught otherwise I can just hear people say, "What?" "You want me to believe AND give the shirt off my back AND offer the other cheek too!" :)
I had an interesting conversation with some Messianic Jews a short time ago. They maintained that it was alright for G.Bush to go into Iraq and slaughter people. They seen him as bringing in the end times and establishing the Kingdom of God (ooooh boy). When I pointed out the Greatest Commandment to them, they disregarded it saying that to kill enemies was not part of "love your neighbour as yourself". But, they had a lot of faith. | |
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| The worst Christian heresy of all
Posted: 1/4/2006 8:50:20 AM | Oh, yes...
What I was pointing out with Paul and other charismatic leaders that have come and gone but had an impact on Christianity was this:
They can only comment and reflect on Yeshuva ben Joseph's actions/ideas. And offer their own interpretation. It doesn't mean their interpretation is/was the only right way or should be considered the divine law. It's just their interpretation and I feel that it's important to seperate the actual activities of Yeshuva and analyze/understand the interpretations of all those who came after.
:)
Kytasau | |
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| The worst Christian heresy of all
Posted: 1/4/2006 3:54:04 PM |
I can understand your positioning on good works/faith being paramount on obtaining greatness in god's eyes as that is the Christian paradigm. However, as a buddhist, I commit myself everyday to being loving kindness because it is just and right and there is no longer any other way for me to be. From a christian perspective, I am devoid of 'faith' and my 'works' would seem to be empty. However, that doesn't take away from the impact of the good works. Kind of a juxtaposition, huh? :)
Kyta ... Thanks for "opening up" re your own spiritual orientation/perspective. It is easier to have a fruitful conversation/debate or whatever it is that we're having here when one has a clearer idea of exactly where the other person is coming from. It's perhaps appropriate that I do likewise here. Personally, I have a great deal of respect for the teachings of the Buddha and have integrated a number of insights from Buddhism into my own belief system. The Dhammapada and other Buddhist texts sit on my bookshelf right beside the Bible and other spiritual literature. Though I do believe that Jesus was "special" in a sense and that the revelation of "truth" that He gave is the greatest and most complete of all (as detailed in other posts, particularly in the thread "why is the gospel being kept a secret"), I nevertheless consider the Buddha to be one of the greatest spiritual teachers that this world has ever seen and believe that, for all the differences between the two men and their teachings, the similarities are much more striking.
I imagine that somewhere in a Heavenly realm or a Nirvana-like state, these two great souls must occasionally share a wistful chuckle about the foolishness of human beings who endlessly bicker and divide themselves on the grounds of their perceived religious differences. Meanwhile, as people of faith and spirituality continue to operate as a "house divided", the "Devil" or "Mara" reigns happily, sowing the seeds of ignorance and strife everywhere on our foolish planet. One can only hope that eventually the "veil of maya" shall be lifted on a worldwide scale and that we shall at last know "the truth that sets us free".
I would not say at all that, if you are a sincere Buddhist and conduct yourself according to the principles taught by that great soul, you are "devoid of faith". Despite the fact that many Buddhists do not believe in a "personal" God, they do believe in the essential oneness of all humanity and all creation and, in effect, a "Source" of all. Given that sincere seekers of both traditions -- and indeed of many other great religious traditions in this world -- do endeavor to connect (or "re-connect") with this Source and, in essence, "purify themselves" in the process, the practical result in terms of their actual conduct in this world and the way they treat others around them is often barely distinguishable from one tradition to the next. The moral principles taught by Jesus are in most ways identical to those taught by the Buddha.
Therefore, you do "show your faith by your works" whether you identify yourself as a "Christian" or not, in my opinion. To put it into Christian terms, God will "render unto every man according to his works". Those who merely say "Lord, Lord" will not be saved or enter into Heaven but rather those who "do the will of the Father" and actually put the teachings of Jesus about love and compassion into practice. In more Buddhistic language, those who fail to recognize the essential oneness of all and continue to pursue a life of selfish desire in contradiction to that will continue to find themselves chained to the wheel of karma and denied entry into the ranks of the enlightened or "Nirvana".
Re the reasons for the spread of what I have called "the worst Christian heresy of all", I will have more questions and tentative answers later but in the meantime, do the ramblings above help? | |
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| The worst Christian heresy of all
Posted: 1/5/2006 7:30:06 AM | So, what about a person who just does good works? Who is of no path of spirituality? Are these good works performed empty of value?
And...Artandsoul. What do you think of my suggestion that it's just easier to propound faith for conversions?
Kytasau | |
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| The worst Christian heresy of all
Posted: 1/5/2006 5:44:10 PM | The worst Christian heresy of all
Message: So, what about a person who just does good works? Who is of no path of spirituality? Are these good works performed empty of value?
And...Artandsoul. What do you think of my suggestion that it's just easier to propound faith for conversions?
I don`t understand how a person can be on no path of spirituality and still be doing good works? Don`t works speak for themselves as being of a spiritual nature? Works are of great value, therefore can`t be of empty content. How do you propound faith for conversion? Your question makes no sence. | |
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| The worst Christian heresy of all
Posted: 1/5/2006 5:58:49 PM | Wet Waters...
Many agnostics/atheists perform good works because it's morally right for them to do so without accrediting it to a religion...
And in regards to my question, what doesn't make sense? | |
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| The worst Christian heresy of all
Posted: 1/5/2006 6:36:45 PM | Just reading over the past posts and :
"They can only comment and reflect on Yeshuva ben Joseph's actions/ideas. And offer their own interpretation. It doesn't mean their interpretation is/was the only right way or should be considered the divine law. It's just their interpretation and I feel that it's important to seperate the actual activities of Yeshuva and analyze/understand the interpretations of all those who came after. "
All is of individual interpretation and of course can`t reflect "the" right way and be considered divine laws. The Kingdom laws are reflected in the character of Yeshua and therefore interpreted experientially by each of those who came after.
"Many agnostics/atheists perform good works because it's morally right for them to do so without accrediting it to a religion"
Personally I believe "morally right " comes with faith in "a higher good". "do unto others before they do unto you" is much more profitable but it takes a higher spirit to do good. | |
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| The worst Christian heresy of all
Posted: 1/6/2006 9:09:23 PM | It's a two step dance. First, in the Old Testament, there was the law and salvation was by keeping the law 100%. Of course no one could do that so God provided sacrifices and the priesthood. Second, in the New Testament, there is the provisions of grace. Jesus' death paid for all past sins only - not for sins committed after His death. For those sins God made the provisions of confession and repentance. If we do not confess and repent of our sins then they will not be forgiven. What could happen on judgment day would take too much time and space here, so suffice it to say only two things about sins not confessed or repented of during this life: 1- the sins for which physical death is the punishment and 2- the unforgiveable sin for which spiritual death is the punishment have predetermined consequences. All other sins have varying degrees of consequences and there are the possibilities of a death bed confession and salvation, and that we receive life everlasting but are restricted to a part of heaven that prevents us from "seeing God".
James said "faith without works is dead" and I think that is a heretical blasphemy (I can back up my opinion if you like). Salvation is by faith alone - the reward of our salvation - the measure of our reward - our access to The Lord, depends on how far up the ladder we climed in the exercise of our faith, and how our faith was exercised. Hebrews Chapter 11 - the "faith chapter" provides the best explanation.
Your closing question is right on point - the work of salvation has already been done by Christ. It requires no effort on our part - only that we accept Him and His provision for our salvation. That faith - our faith - is not even from us. Salavation is by faith and faith is by grace. Not only did God give Jesus to save us, He also gave us the faith to believe that. But not all will receive His gift of faith. | |
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| The worst Christian heresy of all
Posted: 1/7/2006 1:01:06 PM |
All other sins have varying degrees of consequences and there are the possibilities of a death bed confession and salvation, and that we receive life everlasting but are restricted to a part of heaven that prevents us from "seeing God".
Where in the Bible is this teaching to be found?
James said "faith without works is dead" and I think that is a heretical blasphemy (I can back up my opinion if you like).
OK, how can you back up this opinion? | |
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| The worst Christian heresy of all
Posted: 1/7/2006 3:57:39 PM | | In answer to the question...."".why bother to live a good christian life if you are already saved""........I believe a 'true' Christian is one who has the 'capacity'.... to receive all that unconditional love.translated grace.....and having received it...it simply overflows. If agape love is not overflowing to others......perhaps we should be looking at 'refilling'the container....not spending too much time trying to decide ''what kind of a container we should be using....,,,,,however.....if your container is leaking ...or too smalll.....or tips over too easily...too fragile etc.....by all means look around for a context that allows you to receive more love and truth.... that you can pass on to others. | |
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| The worst Christian heresy of all
Posted: 1/7/2006 8:49:25 PM | Right on. If one is re-born, it is not a casual decision, or even something that the one reborn
has a say in. It is not about how many bible verses we memorize...God is trying continually to reach His children! Why would HE make it a twisted road map! We do this to ourselves!
If you are born a Hen, and you waddle offf from your mothers breast and get wet in the rain, youre still a hen...just a wet hen. If you are reborn a new creation, you are a new creation.
Be thankful! That is as real as my big nose! That is a conviction so deeply embedded that if you try to deny it you will suffer. I tried. many have. Jesus will not be sidetracked. Conviction lies far beneath the exterior of church attendance and bible studies. And yes, I would like to think I would die for my conviction...I nearly died trying to stuff it out of my conscousness! Look at Paul...a former killer of the Freedmen...devoted to Rome and stomping those annoying Jesus loving types...he paid a penalty for turning on Rome...and he was just a jew made Roman citizen for his heroism...and he died because a greater truth laid hold of him...that truth is available to all of us...the same truth. | |
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| The worst Christian heresy of all
Posted: 1/7/2006 8:51:53 PM | | Search yourself truly and honestly, and you will find the answer, if you look honestly. Best wishes for you. | |
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| The worst Christian heresy of all
Posted: 1/9/2006 1:57:58 AM | Georgy, your post is a little too metaphorical for me to follow. Can you clarify it? I'm really not sure what you're trying to say in relation to the question that was asked.
What I was asking in the original post is: is it a true reflection of the teaching of Jesus to believe that all you have to do to be "saved" is at one moment in your life to accept Him, ask Him to be your Saviour and your salvation then is a done deal? Just like that? No further work required? What if you aren't overflowing with grace? What if you're not even close to it? What if you go to a Billy Graham meeting, ever so sincerely walk up that aisle and "get saved" but then the cares of the world choke the seed that was planted in you and after a few months or a year you more or less drift away from the faith altogether and proceed to live a life that is anything but filled with grace or could in any way be described as a Christian life? Now, on your deathbed you remember all that stuff you've been forgetting about for the last twenty years and say the little prayer again and presto -- the doors of Heaven swing wide open for you? While another who lived a far better life, a life that was in every way more in accordance with the actual teachings of Jesus about love, compassion, etc, finds the door closed because he didn't say that little prayer? Does that make any sense to you? | |
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| The worst Christian heresy of all
Posted: 1/9/2006 4:18:08 AM | James said "faith without works is dead" and I think that is a heretical blasphemy (I can back up my opinion if you like). Salvation is by faith alone - the reward of our salvation - the measure of our reward - our access to The Lord, depends on how far up the ladder we climed in the exercise of our faith, and how our faith was exercised. Hebrews Chapter 11 - the "faith chapter" provides the best explanation.
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How does a person pick and chose what to believe in the bible? The walk of faith Chap 11 Hebrews, was faith with works.If you only believe parts of the bible, then all of it is just your reasoning, and who can trust in that? We wouldn`t need a bible if our minds could reason the mind of God. That`s why we need faith to bring us through. | |
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| The worst Christian heresy of all
Posted: 1/9/2006 3:05:13 PM | Artandsoul....The Story of the prodigal son sorta covers one question you addressed....will get back with ''the rest of the story''.... later....  | |
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| The worst Christian heresy of all
Posted: 1/9/2006 3:51:01 PM | | OP.....Jesus said that he was giving us a NEW COMMANDMENT...THAT WE love ONE ANOTHER. This AGAPE love is defined in 1st Corinthians 13. We cannot give something we do not have....perhaps the Work involved in being a Christian involves keeping our mending the container that God uses to fill us with His overflowing love.....or possibly finding a new one ie. a different contextual container that won't leak or crack or tip over easily. This different context could mean a deeper understanding of God.....since we have been told that we perish for lack of knowledge. The work is already done....we are only the distributors. God is the judge. I have had 5 children come from my womb.... they are my children...they were born to me....no matter what they do they can not nullify the fact that they are my children. Nothing they would do ...or not do...would cause me to deny them my presence....except if their presence would do grievious harm to my 'other' children. If this was the case I would sadly and reluctantly deny them acess to those they would harm. In reference to being saved.... what are we being saved for.....????? I believe we are being saved so we can get back to God's original purpose to live in paradise on earth. If God were to give up on His original plan ... would it not be equivilant to saying....o.k. the Garden of Eden thing was a bad idea....too dangerous a scenario if I've given the kid's 'free will'...I think I'll just store them safely up here in Heaven where I can keep a closer eye on them!!!!!..............................................................................................................................My point...my point....what is my point....just like the prodigal son....if you know where your father is and you want to return and be with him...He will not only welcome you with open arms...but he will meet you halfway....no it's not fair....we DON'T DESERVE IT..that's why the title of that song we all know and love is....AMAZING GRACE!!!!!!! | |
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| The worst Christian heresy of all
Posted: 1/11/2006 12:47:02 AM | | Georgy... I have no real issues with much of your argument and I think the parable of the prodigal son is an apt description of the process of a soul that finally returns to its true Home and becomes truly "saved". Nevertheless, it is necessary for that soul to rouse itself from "eating with the pigs" and actually begin the journey back to God of its own accord. Those who choose to remain in the sty eating with the pigs and think that all they have to do is say a little prayer to be magically, instantanteously "saved" are going to be pretty disappointed when they hear Jesus saying "not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' will be saved but rather those who DO the will of my father". If a person is really overflowing with the agape love that you talk about, there WILL be works that demonstrate this fact. No works, no real faith -- certainly not "saving" faith. That's the truth of the gospel. Indeed, He gave us a new commandment, to "love one another". It's a commandment to actually DO something -- not just to talk about doing something or say you believe in it. James was right when he said "faith without works is dead". | |
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