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Ghandi accepted completely the sermon on the mount. He expound it thru out that area of the world. If you look closely you will see Jesus` character clearly defined . That is what Ghandi loved. The character of Christ is a definition of the Kingdom If Ghandi loved the kingdom I think He would qualify as a citisen. Christ said Himself those who are not against us are with us.
If you take a step back, talking about the Christ on the cross, that act was foreseen when God "impregnated" Mary. Had Christ lived a normal life, and died an old man in his bed - the entire message of Christianity would have been lost.
In a twisted way, it was probably the first assisted suicide. God had to know what was coming, and so did Jesus. He was given the chance to save himself, but accepted torture and death instead.
Without Judas, and those Centurians, there is no Christianity.
Jesus, who seems to have had no real ego, becomes the symbol that replaces the Old Testament God. A religion springs forth bearing his name. I wonder how that must have struck him. His message seems to have been overridden during all of this.
Also look at the rather strange thing about Jesus. He is born of a human female, and a "male" God. He, as a male, is not really a strong virile typically male person. In many descriptions, he is described as beautiful. He is certainly not violent or "strong" in any normal stereotypical way.
The following description of Jesus Christ was written by Publius Lentrelus, a resident of Judea in the reign of Tiberius Caesar:
There lives at this time in Judea a man with a unique virtue whose name is Jesus Christ, whom the people esteem as a prophet, and his followers love and adore him as the son sent by the immortal God. He calls the dead back from their graves and heals all sorts of diseases with a word or a touch. He is a tall Man, well built, and of a good-natured and respectful appearance. His hair is a reddish golden color that can hardly be matched, falling into graceful curls, waving about and very nicely lies upon his shoulders, parted on the top of his head, running as a stream to the front after the fashion of the Nazarites. His forehead is smooth and without curve. His cheeks are without a flaw or indentation; they are light colored with a lovely red hue. His nose and mouth are formed with exquisite symmetry. And his beard is a reddish color suitable to matching his hair. It reaches below his chin and parts in the middle like a fork. His eyes are bright blue, clear, and calm. His look is innocent, dignified, manly, and mature. His body proportions are most perfect and magnetic. His arms and hands are delightful to observe. He rebukes with kingly grandness; he councils with tenderness. His whole tact whether in word or deed is eloquent, yet serious. His manners are very pleasant, and he has wept openly in the presence of grown men. He is reasonable, modest, and wise. His extraordinary beauty and perfection surpasses that of all other humans in every sense.
The Bible gives us almost no description of him, which again is quite strange for someone who is the center of so much attention.
In this very male dominated religion, he is almost the complete opposite of traditional male values. He let's himself be killed, horribly and painfully, without raising a hand to defend himself. He suffers quietly.
In many ways, that is more a "female" approach to life. He speaks only of love, and of emotion. Violence is never considered.
Considering his "DNA" , and his Father being that same entity that destroyed pretty much every living thing on Earth ( except for Noah and his family, and those animals) , and turned people into pillars of salt, it seems Jesus took after his Mother.
God afterwards seems to have taken some anger management courses, as well. Perhaps they were right when they say having a child changes a man.
A little bowing of the head a little bending of the knee integrity gives way to pride
That`s true, I think ,about the feminine side. I really believe Jesus demonstrated our position in God`s family. We submit to Him, now Husband, take our questions to Him , not the congregation, His dominion, us in His image, etc
As Eve came out of Adam`s side the church came out of Jesus
And yet this same Church typically blocks women out of the process, or at least actively. At least God included a woman directly in the process, which is something the Church might want to think about.
That's an intersting point SF, that believers submit to a higher power, in very much a female way ( old school, mind you) - yet the Church itself is a bastion of male power.
I waited patiently for the LORD; he turned to me and heard my cry.
He lifted me out of the slimy pit, out of the mud and mire; he set my feet on a rock and gave me a firm place to stand.
He put a new song in my mouth, a hymn of praise to our God. Many will see and fear and put their trust in the LORD.
Blessed is the man who makes the LORD his trust, who does not look to the proud, to those who turn aside to false gods.
Many, O LORD my God, are the wonders you have done. The things you planned for us no one can recount to you; were I to speak and tell of them, they would be too many to declare.
Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but my ears you have pierced; burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.
Then I said, "Here I am, I have come— it is written about me in the scroll.
I desire to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart."
I proclaim righteousness in the great assembly; I do not seal my lips, as you know, O LORD.
I do not hide your righteousness in my heart; I speak of your faithfulness and salvation. I do not conceal your love and your truth from the great assembly.
Do not withhold your mercy from me, O LORD; may your love and your truth always protect me.
Baja, in any case I wasn't attacking you ... rather the viewpoint put forward by the "Christian scholars" you referred to. You're right, I did miss that your reference to them was tongue in cheek but I've looked back and it isn't obvious at all. My apologies if you took it as a personal attack.
In any event, that type of thinking is exactly what this whole thread is supposed to be about though it's wandered far from the original question of late -- people, thanks for your contributions but can we get back to the question of this particular thread?
My little story about Gandhi and the gangster (message 141) basically takes off from Jackiefrost's example about the sincere Buddhist turned away at the gates of Heaven because he didn't have the "right kind of faith". Surely, there isn't an intelligent person out there who has thought in depth about religious teachings that hasn't imagined a similar scenario. The scenario described seems ridiculous indeed and perhaps some Christians will feel that I've unfairly mocked their beliefs. I don't think I have. It really isn't far off at all from what many Christians believe in -- "deathbed conversions" getting people who have lived horrible lives of rank sin into Heaven while saintly persons of other faiths are cast out because their understanding of God differs from the fundamentalist Christian viewpoint! With this type of thinking being so widely promoted, is it any wonder that so many intelligent people throw out the baby with the bathwater and conclude that Christianity in general is sheer nonsense?
Rob, to clarify my own position: I'm not attacking Christianity. I believe in Jesus. I'm attacking a teaching that in my opinion is not worthy of Christianity. Yes, I do think that reincarnation is a sensible belief that eliminates the silly scenario described in my other post. It answers a lot of questions that fundamentalist thinking can never answer. You yourself seem to agree with my contention that merely saying "Lord, Lord" will never get you into Heaven, that it is necessary to actually follow the teachings of Jesus. Perhaps you were offended by my pearly gate story. Yet, you admit the possibility of such a scenario unfolding when you say that Hitler would be in Heaven if he accepted Jesus on his deathbed! You strike me as a sincere believer and I have no wish to offend you -- but don't you see the gaping holes in this theory of salvation?
Montreal guy, the way I see it. Jesus was God himself (I'm a 1 person God). He put himself on the cross to save us as I would jump in front of a car to save my daughter whom I love. Not really suicide, but a choice.
Also look at the rather strange thing about Jesus. He is born of a human female, and a "male" God. He, as a male, is not really a strong virile typically male person. In many descriptions, he is described as beautiful. He is certainly not violent or "strong" in any normal stereotypical way.... In many descriptions, he is described as beautiful. He is certainly not violent or "strong" in any normal stereotypical way.
While Jesus was a balanced human being, unafraid to, for instance, weep in public, this doesn't make him less masculine than any other man. He was on occasion somewhat violent, for example, when he drove the moneychangers out of the temple, overturning tables and striking their animals with cords. Also, He wasn't always gentle and mild in His language. He rebuked the hypocritical Pharisees in a less than tactful manner when He called them "vipers" and "whitewashed tombs". While he was gentle with the weak, He confronted the most powerful people in His society without surrender, refusing to say what the things that they wanted to hear and that would have saved His life.
Though I always appreciate your intelligent comments, I couldn't let that one pass in case some people got the wrong idea. Jesus was a Man among men. Now -- please -- can we get back on topic?
yes they were an "OT" thing -- I did not think they were a guarantee to Heaven !? they were very limited as it was to be unblemished- thus limiting the frequency / occurrence of sacrifice / slaughter- if there were no limits soon no flock would remain - as such if it were a guarantee then Heaven would seem easy.
another note :
Judas -- yes it was told that he would betray Jesus so was the purpose of Judas lineage to betray Christ ??
was Judas sent to Hell? so as a result was Judas "pre destined to Hell?
does God then who knows you before your birth predestine in that way?
in the end -- did Judas have a chance at heaven?
OK some of this falls into a Post Hoc Ergo Procter Hoc but one can follow the LOGIC..
as I do believe in a Heaven I do hope peacemakers like Gandhi are there ..
Since many Bible verses have been posted - here is one more
1 John 1:5-10 (New International Version) New International Version (NIV)
Walking in the light
5)This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
6)If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.
7)But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[a] sin.
8)If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9)If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
10)If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives
^^^^^ The last two posts by Baja and Key are right on the money. Key, I like the way you transposed "hearsay" with "heresy". It fits very nicely. But, hon, you better quit your "post-whoring" ways, it seems. I do not judge you, woman, but someone has apparently cast a stone at you. Go and sin no more. :)
The planned publication of a "forbidden" Gospel of Judas is set to reawaken a centuries-old controversy over the man who betrayed Jesus.
A Swiss foundation and National Geographic magazine are to publish translations of the ancient Coptic text discovered in Egypt in the 1970s.
Although the full details have not yet been made public, snippets discussed in academic circles say it will prove Judas was acting at the behest of God when he sold Jesus to the Romans for 30 pieces of silver.
Its publication will raise fears among traditionalists that efforts may be made to rehabilitate a man whose name is synonymous with betrayal.
Sympathisers with Judas contend that had Jesus not been crucified, he would not have been subsequently resurrected to save humanity.
The translator of the Gospel of Judas is Rodolphe Kasser of the University of Geneva, the world's leading Coptic scholar. The torn and tattered papyrus text had been offered to potential buyers in North America and Europe for decades after it was found at al-Minya in Egypt.
It resurfaced recently as the property of the Maecenas Foundation based in Basle, Switzerland.
Controversy also surrounds the origins of the text, which dates from the fourth century, with some scholars arguing that it was not written by Judas, but by a group of his supporters.
With all the talk of living "in faith", living by doctrine, validity of salvation by word, progression by action, etc. etc ...
... my question of the day is ... How many Christians still celebrate Christmas? I have no cast-in-stone stance on the issue but have noticed how each passing year brings about more and more debate about whether Christmas is a Christian festival or whether it is no more than an adopted and adapted Pagan rite. Frankly, I think most Christians feel no conviction about what we are calling a celebration of the birth of Jesus, though scripture certainly admonishes us against certain "modern" traditions of the season.
They did the Christian Christmas to death around Christmas/Winter Solstice time. Next is easter, but we want to wait and keep that as a surprise..Don't go away, don't touch that mouse, we'll be right back after these massages..
To exploit the faithful, to give false phophecy, and to do so knowingly. The worset wolves are the ones that hide amoung the sheep.
To confuse the faithful, to misrepresent the true of teachings Jesus, and to do so ignorantly. .. The most irritating sheep of all are those think that they have all the flockin' answers and who insist on labelling all sheep of other flocks as "wolves". Meanwhile, the real wolves divide, conquer and feast on all foolish sheep.
But I'm really irritated with myself too -- my last post should read "... to misrepresent the true teachings of Jesus". I hate typos -- especially when I make them myself! Shouldn't there be a little icon here that slaps itself in the head?
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