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Posted: 1/5/2006 9:15:57 AM | Wildfire... I don't believe you have anything to be fearful or guilty of; that is for those who decimate God's word. We should just continue to love each other and let justice take its course.  | |
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| bible fact or fitcion
Posted: 1/5/2006 9:20:23 AM | | I do not think I am fearful just searchin for answers! Yes and you are so right.... can't we all just get along... | |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 11:18:35 AM |
The fact is a Creator would want the truth to be known to everyone, not just a select few. Thus the road must be as wide as possible not narrow - that strikes me somewhat mean and nasty. It creates anguish for those who truly want to be accepted. There cannot be anything moral about a God who would deny man's understanding of the scriptures. This is why I too believe that the translations have been purposely mistranslated. What it has achieved is murder and slander on a global scale for thousands of years.
The bible is actually quite explicit in how one comes to an understanding of it. It is His Spirit that leads us to understand and see the truth that the scriptures contain. Scholars all through the ages have spent lifetimes studying and still wound up with less understanding than an uneducated man who prays for the Spirit to guide him into all truth.
Do that and you'll come to understand the difference between the broad and narrow roads. It is not a description of how God limits who travels the narrow road, but of how few are willing to enter and travel on that road.
When you depend on the Spirit to lead you to truth, the translation or errors that it may contain are not of consequence because you then have in you a much greater witness to the truth. My own opinion is that it isn't the scriptures that are in error but men's interpretations of them. It is a hard thing to read the bible with no preconceived ideas of what certain passages mean and yet it is that kind of open heart/mind that the Spirit needs to bring a believer into a true understanding for the level they are at. | |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 12:06:47 PM | There have been hundreds of books written on the subject of the evidences of the divine inspiration of the Bible, and these evidences are many and varied. Most people today, unfortunately, have not read any of these books. In fact, few have even read the Bible itself! Thus, many people tend to go along with the popular delusion that the Bible is full of mistakes and is no longer relevant to our modern world.
Nevertheless the Bible writers claimed repeatedly that they were transmitting the very Word of God, infallible and authoritative in the highest degree. This is an amazing thing for any writer to say, and if the forty or so men who wrote the Scriptures were wrong in these claims, then they must have been lying, or insane, or both.
But, on the other hand, if the greatest and most influential book of the ages, containing the most beautiful literature and the most perfect moral code ever devised, was written by deceiving fanatics, then what hope is there for ever finding meaning and purpose in this world?
If one will seriously investigate these Biblical evidences, he will find that their claims of divine inspiration (stated over 3,000 times, in various ways) were amply justified.
Fulfilled Prophecies
The remarkable evidence of fulfilled prophecy is just one case in point. Hundreds of Bible prophecies have been fulfilled, specifically and meticulously, often long after the prophetic writer had passed away.
For example, Daniel the prophet predicted in about 538 BC (Daniel 9:24-27) that Christ would come as Israel's promised Savior and Prince 483 years after the Persian emperor would give the Jews authority to rebuild Jerusalem, which was then in ruins. This was clearly and definitely fulfilled, hundreds of years later.
There are extensive prophecies dealing with individual nations and cities and with the course of history in general, all of which have been literally fulfilled. More than 300 prophecies were fulfilled by Christ Himself at His first coming. Other prophecies deal with the spread of Christianity, as well as various false religions, and many other subjects.
There is no other book, ancient or modern, like this. The vague, and usually erroneous, prophecies of people like Jeanne Dixon, Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce, and others like them are not in the same category at all, and neither are other religious books such as the Koran, the Confucian Analects, and similar religious writings. Only the Bible manifests this remarkable prophetic evidence, and it does so on such a tremendous scale as to render completely absurd any explanation other than divine revelation.
Unique Historical Accuracy
Learn more about Archaeology and the Bible
The historical accuracy of the Scriptures is likewise in a class by itself, far superior to the written records of Egypt, Assyria, and other early nations. Archeological confirmations of the Biblical record have been almost innumerable in the last century. Dr. Nelson Glueck, probably the greatest modern authority on Israeli archeology, has said:
"No archeological discovery has ever controverted a Biblical reference. Scores of archeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or in exact detail historical statements in the Bible. And, by the same token, proper evaluation of Biblical descriptions has often led to amazing discoveries."
Scientific Accuracy
Another striking evidence of divine inspiration is found in the fact that many of the principles of modern science were recorded as facts of nature in the Bible long before scientist confirmed them experimentally. A sampling of these would include:
Roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22)
Almost infinite extent of the sidereal universe (Isaiah 55:9)
Law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7)
Hydrologic cycle (Ecclesiastes 1:7)
Vast number of stars (Jeremiah 33:22)
Law of increasing entropy (Psalm 102:25-27)
Paramount importance of blood in life processes (Leviticus 17:11)
Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6)
Gravitational field (Job 26:7)
and many others.
These are not stated in the technical jargon of modern science, of course, but in terms of the basic world of man's everyday experience; nevertheless, they are completely in accord with the most modern scientific facts.
It is significant also that no real mistake has ever been demonstrated in the Bible -- in science, in history, or in any other subject. Many have been claimed, of course, but conservative Bible scholars have always been able to work out reasonable solutions to all such problems.
Unique Structure
The remarkable structure of the Bible should also be stressed. Although it is a collection of 66 books, written by 40 or more different men over a period of 2,000 years, it is clearly one Book, with perfect unity and consistency throughout.
The individual writers, at the time of writing, had no idea that their message was eventually to be incorporated into such a Book, but each nevertheless fits perfectly into place and serves its own unique purpose as a component of the whole. Anyone who diligently studies the Bible will continually find remarkable structural and mathematical patterns woven throughout its fabric, with an intricacy and symmetry incapable of explanation by chance or collusion.
The one consistent theme of the Bible, developing in grandeur from Genesis to Revelation, is God's great work in the creation and redemption of all things, through His only Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Bible's Unique Effect
The Bible is unique also in terms of its effect on individual men and on the history of nations. It is the all-time best seller, appealing both to hearts and minds, beloved by at least some in every race or nation or tribe to which it has gone, rich or poor, scholar or simple, king or commoner, men of literally every background and walk of life. No other book has ever held such universal appeal nor produced such lasting effects.
One final evidence that the Bible is true is found in the testimony of those who have believed it. Multitudes of people, past and present, have found from personal experience that its promises are true, its counsel is sound, its commands and restrictions are wise, and its wonderful message of salvation meets every need for both time and eternity. | |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 5:55:53 PM | "The bible is actually quite explicit in how one comes to an understanding of it. It is His Spirit that leads us to understand and see the truth that the scriptures contain. Scholars all through the ages have spent lifetimes studying and still wound up with less understanding than an uneducated man who prays for the Spirit to guide him into all truth."
Sorry my friend, but you want to argue that black is white. The bible is explicitly wrong in my opinion. Anyone claiming to understand the incomprehensible I say good luck. The holy spirit is a conviction of faith, nothing more, it belongs to those who have been indoctrinated and had it inexorably planted in them, usually from a very early age. Once the seed (to my mind, of deceit) is sown it grows with you. | |
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Posted: 1/5/2006 9:21:45 PM |
In fact, few have even read the Bible itself! Thus, many people tend to go along with the popular delusion that the Bible is full of mistakes and is no longer relevant to our modern world.
The cause of this "delusion" is evidence. The Bible is at odds with what we know about biology, astronomy, cosmology, geophysics, history, and geology. The Bible isn't even a good moral guide.
More than 300 prophecies were fulfilled by Christ Himself at His first coming.
Every single one of these falls apart as soon as you read them in context. For example, Jesus is said to have fulfilled a prophecy that says "Out of Egypt I have called my son."
Matt 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Of course this is in reference to Hosea 11:1. But we see this fall apart as soon as we read this "prophecy."
Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
This verse is explicitly about Israel, and refers to a past event, not a future one.
This is an amazing thing for any writer to say, and if the forty or so men who wrote the Scriptures were wrong in these claims, then they must have been lying, or insane, or both.
Given the way that Christians have misrepresented the OT to make it look like Jesus fulfilled 300 Scriptures, I'd have to say they were lying. | |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 7:42:52 AM | | Count I have to say I am very impressed! Good statements just gives me more reason to keep searching. Keep it real. ~~~~ | |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 8:45:02 AM |
The cause of this "delusion" is evidence. The Bible is at odds with what we know about biology, astronomy, cosmology, geophysics, history, and geology. The Bible isn't even a good moral guide.
The bible is at odds with what some "think" they know about those things. For almost any supposed evidence that contradicts the bible there is plausible explanations or alternative interpetations of evidence that support it. However it is only fair to mention that for those who do not wish to believe the scripture we have this verse: 2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. So perhaps it isn't surprising that you cannot see it.
Every single one of these falls apart as soon as you read them in context. For example, Jesus is said to have fulfilled a prophecy that says "Out of Egypt I have called my son."
The propheses only fall apart for those who want them to. The bible is spiritually discerned and therefore has to be read from the spirit to understand it.
In the example you mentioned, you need to remember that the "sons of God" during Moses's time were the forerunners for the "Son of God" in Matthew. The purpose of Jesus was to fulfill both the prophesies and the Will of God. It was for Him to complete what we couldn't. Hosea was speaking historically but by extension also of the future Son. A corroborating verse can be found in Psalm 80: 7-9.
Given the way that Christians have misrepresented the OT to make it look like Jesus fulfilled 300 Scriptures, I'd have to say they were lying.
Judging by your previous example, misrepresentation is from those who do not wish to understand the OT. | |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 8:57:01 AM | I love it when the Pot screams at the kettle 'hey you are black'.
Coffee, you said the following:
"The propheses only fall apart for those who want them to."
I respond with:
"The prophesies only hold true for those that want them to."
Also, I had some funny thoughts about another comment you made.
"The bible is at odds with what some "think" they know about those things."
Those things being: biology, astronomy, cosmology, geophysics, history, and geology. So let me guess; the earth is still flat, the earth is the center of the universe, the sun revolves around the moon, earthquakes are cause by God's anger, dinosaur fossils are a big trick played by God, etc.
I think the bible is at odds with these things because too many people think with their spirit and not their brain
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Posted: 1/6/2006 9:47:21 AM | I'm predicting that I am posting this message...there, my prediction came true. You cannot argue that the prophecy came true but you may not agree with the content of the message. That however is a different deal.
Those things being: biology, astronomy, cosmology, geophysics, history, and geology. So let me guess; the earth is still flat, the earth is the center of the universe, the sun revolves around the moon, earthquakes are cause by God's anger, dinosaur fossils are a big trick played by God, etc.
Accordiding to Isaiah 40:22, the Earth is not flat. The Earth may well be the centre of the Universe as well as the sun revolving around it according to this site and others like it: http://www.geocentricity.com/ I especially invite you to read the book that is listed there. Quite interesting if you can get through the very technical language.
Do you have proof that calamaties are not instigated by God? Mind you, I do believe that mankind has triggered many events themselves in the recent past. How do dinosaur fossils disprove the Bible btw?
Looks to me like you are just another victim of "scientific" propaganda.
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Posted: 1/6/2006 10:02:14 AM | "Looks to me like you are just another victim of "scientific" propaganda."
No just common sense.
Did you actually read your own website...the whole thing basically outlines that the church was scared about losing its political power.
This is from your site
Perhaps the strongest geocentric verse in the Bible is Joshua 10:13:
And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Wow some proof.
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Posted: 1/6/2006 10:18:21 AM | Damn Scientific Propaganda.... YOu mean FACT!
The only true fact is that the facts will change as new evidence and theories come to light.
Fact does not equal Truth.
No just common sense.
Common sense today has not and will not be common in another era.
Common sense does not equal Truth.
Did you actually read your own website...the whole thing basically outlines that the church was scared about losing its political power.
Is that the only thing you read? Are you afraid to look deeper? There are even experiments you can easily conduct yourself to verify what they are saying. You don't have to believe simply because some "scientist" has another theory which you're supposed to believe because it is scientific.
Science does not equal Truth. | |
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| bible fact or fitcion
Posted: 1/6/2006 10:22:43 AM | | Truth is not a word I personally would use but Science is based for finding fact out of truth. As I will continue to do in my search for finding what the heck the bible means in my life. | |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 10:42:14 AM | You say...
"The only true fact is that the facts will change as new evidence and theories come to light."
No, you put the cart before the horse...
Scientific theories and conclusions will change, become obsolete, refutted, or substantiated when new evidence comes to light. The fact that science is constantly seeking out new information and new methods of verification is what gives science it strenght. The facts themselves don't change, it is our understanding of the facts that change.
You go onto say
"Common sense today has not and will not be common in another era."
I would agree with you. See way back when the church thought it was common sense to burn witches, and they also thought it was common sense to protect priests that molested children, oh wait, the Crusades were common sense too.
What we consider common sense obviously changes as are knowledge grows, and we learn more about the world we live in. I am not an absolutest, moral relativity is more akin to my personal beliefs. | |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 10:57:15 AM |
No, you put the cart before the horse...
Scientific theories and conclusions will change, become obsolete, refutted, or substantiated when new evidence comes to light. The fact that science is constantly seeking out new information and new methods of verification is what gives science it strenght. The facts themselves don't change, it is our understanding of the facts that change.
In the pagan days it was considered a fact that if you threw your childeren into the fire or volcano etc. you would appease the gods and have a good harvest. Perhaps christianity has shown most a more enlightened way. ie simple prayer and a good dose of fertilizer.
Sheesh, talk about the pan calling the kettle black.... | |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 11:08:29 AM | Your point about Pagan Relegion is what. That does not speak to the point I made about science, and your summary of the flaws therein. I merely noted that science is constantly changing because of new discoveries, and it is new evidence and methods that change the interpretation of 'facts'.
You quip about Pagan sacrifice only adds to my point about how ridiculous relegion is.
Oh, and I like how you completely ignored the crusades, witch hunts, and child molestors and how that relates to the common sense of the church.
Please, next time you address my post, actually address what I say, don't make up some useless point that is completely off-topic in an effort to avoid answering a problem. | |
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| bible fact or fitcion
Posted: 1/6/2006 11:38:16 AM |
Please, next time you address my post, actually address what I say, don't make up some useless point that is completely off-topic in an effort to avoid answering a problem.
Then I would suggest you don't utilize the type of argument you did here in future:
I would agree with you. See way back when the church thought it was common sense to burn witches, and they also thought it was common sense to protect priests that molested children, oh wait, the Crusades were common sense too.
If you want to just trash each others religious beliefs we can do so.
You quip about Pagan sacrifice only adds to my point about how ridiculous relegion is.
If you consider religions ridiculous why does your profile state that yours is "Other Religion"?
Perhaps you need to look up the definition of "fact"
Abiogenisis for an example is considered a fact by many scientists. However it is based on a conjecture of what may have happened in the beginning. It is susceptable to change when a new "fact" comes to light. | |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 12:06:54 PM | I clicked other relegion for a couple of reasons. I am not any of the relegions listed there, nor am I agnostic or athiest. In fact other relegion is not accurate, I suppose spiritual would be more accurate than relegious.
What type of argument is that...you completely mistated how science applies its methods, I merely point out that facts do not change, only the interpretation of those facts based on the methods and information we have.
You then proceed to make light of the comment that I rely on common sense. I merely pointed out that Christianity certainly seems to have changed their views as to what is common sense as well.
With respect to your rant of Abiogenisis...please actually do some reading. It is a theory...key word theory. In fact Aristotle was the first to argue for the theory, which was subsequently disproven. Actually (an as much as I dislike using Wikipedia) Wikipedia has a pretty well rounded discussion on the history of the THEORY and where it stands today.
I hope you are smart enough to realize the difference between a fact and a theory. | |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 12:31:49 PM | "Abiogenisis for an example is considered a fact by many scientists."
That's tripe. Like Brain said, you are confusing fact and theory. I notice you make a lot of statements about science, and yet don't really understand it's methodology. That's little different than someone expounding on the entire works of William Shakespeare after having read only a cliff notes version of Hamlet. Invariant relationships are facts, such as the relationship between temperature and pressure in a gas. It is something immediately and one-dimensionally verifiable by experiment. Theories are much more complex constructs, built from a multitude of facts, but continually open to refinement or outright dethronement by a more descriptive and empirically verifiable theory.
Brain- welcome back. Were have you been? | |
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| bible fact or fitcion
Posted: 1/6/2006 1:01:24 PM | hi coffeeholic
re your interpation of Isaiah 40:22 the earth is not flat, it reads:
40:22 "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in."
One who reads Isaiah 40 especially Isaiah 28-31 reads from a man of great wisdom.
28 Do you not know?
Have you not heard?
The LORD is the everlasting God,
the Creator of the ends of the earth.
He will not grow tired or weary,
and his understanding no one can fathom.
29 He gives strength to the weary
and increases the power of the weak.
30 Even youths grow tired and weary,
and young men stumble and fall;
31 but those who hope in the LORD
will renew their strength.
They will soar on wings like eagles;
they will run and not grow weary,
they will walk and not be faint.
One can probably place how this knowledge can interweave in the minds of great evolutionary scientists.
PS the word "flat" reagarding to "flat earth" does not exist in the bible OT or NT, however it still existed in man eyes as far and probably more so in the year 1492. | |
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Posted: 1/6/2006 7:44:43 PM | Posted By:Brain-In-A-Vat
You then proceed to make light of the comment that I rely on common sense. I merely pointed out that Christianity certainly seems to have changed their views as to what is common sense as well.
As a spiritual person I'm sure you realize that it is unfair to judge a particular spiritual path by the actions of some of its supposed adherents. The path may be perfect but those on it, never are. Only the path that has perfect disciples has a right to throw the first stone...but if they did they would no longer be perfect.
Posted By:Brain-In-A-Vat
With respect to your rant of Abiogenisis...please actually do some reading. It is a theory...key word theory.-- I hope you are smart enough to realize the difference between a fact and a theory.
Posted By:wonkavision
"Abiogenisis for an example is considered a fact by many scientists."
That's tripe. Like Brain said, you are confusing fact and theory. I notice you make a lot of statements about science, and yet don't really understand it's methodology.
Posted at www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB090.html
Claim CB090:
Evolution is baseless without a good theory of abiogenesis, which it does not have.
Response:
Abiogenesis is a fact. Regardless of how you imagine it happened , it is a fact that there once was no life on earth and that now there is. Thus, even if evolution needs abiogenesis, it has it.
Who is it again that needs to do some reading? Who is it that is confused or misunderstands about doing some research? Sounds like some opinions were being pulled out of posteriors as someone once remarked to me.
Thank you Lord.  | |
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| bible fact or fitcion
Posted: 1/6/2006 8:07:22 PM |
re your interpation of Isaiah 40:22 the earth is not flat, it reads:
40:22 "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in."
Since circles are two dimensional objects it's clear that Isaiah did think the world was flat. Otherwise he would have used the word for sphere. The description of the heavens also shows that he thought the sky was a dome resting on the Earth.
Isaiah contradicts other places in the Bible that says the Earth has four corners. Then there's also the story about Satan taking Jesus to a high mountain where they look at all the kingdoms of the Earth. That would only be possible on a flat Earth. | |
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