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MizKel
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Joined: 12/18/2005
Msg: 26 | |
| Atheists
Posted: 12/29/2005 1:17:30 PM | Amen, jeremy
I am one who has been too selfish to give myself over completely to God because of selfish, pointless desires.
This world needs to be smothered in prayer. It is a depraved place. | |
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MizKel
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Joined: 12/18/2005
Msg: 27 | |
| Atheists
Posted: 12/29/2005 1:19:27 PM | hey trew
I don't think God will respond to you from the toilet because that isn't where He is. You might, however, want to rethink the holding your breath part, since, according to you, you will be eye level with the Great Porcelain Altar. | |
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| Atheists
Posted: 12/29/2005 8:41:07 PM |
the average christian doesn't have the same forgiveness power and unconditional love as an old time christian had.
For a non religious person, you give a lot of credit to the old time christians. ;)
BTW, it does not matter, what the average christian does. Its not up to statistics to judge a faith. Nobody said being a Christian is easy. As a matter of fact its not. Day by day, Its easier to slip in to sin and ridicule your self, and make a bad example for others. However there are still good Christians to look uppon and take as a good example. As from the other side, being an atheist, is not a big deal. You have nothing to strive for, no peaks to drop from. You are already at the bottom. Nobody is looking for you as an example. You've got nobody to dissapoint. | |
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j-roc
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Joined: 5/24/2005
Msg: 29 | |
| Atheists
Posted: 12/29/2005 8:49:44 PM | People that stop talking with God will go to hell. Seriously. And where is there any scripture to support this ?
I'm here to tell you that the world is full of "Silent Christians" and that their voice is weak unto the ears of the Lord next to those that scream his name. Christians should keep their mouths shut.
Matthew 6:5-6 (ESV)
And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly I say to you , they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. | |
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| Atheists
Posted: 12/29/2005 8:52:48 PM | [quote[Christians are inspiring each other to kill.
These are not Christians then. | |
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| Atheists
Posted: 12/29/2005 8:54:04 PM |
To hate.
These are not Christians then. | |
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j-roc
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Joined: 5/24/2005
Msg: 32 | |
| Atheists
Posted: 12/29/2005 8:58:22 PM | Here's an example of Christian love...straight from Christ's mouth....
Matthew 10:34-36 (ESV)
Do not think I have come to bring peace on earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. | |
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| Atheists
Posted: 12/29/2005 8:59:25 PM | I told friends that I will no longer celebrate Christmas, rather the ancient Briton festival of Yuletide, with the log, and holly, and mistletoe etc. When Christianity was invented, it became necessary to kill muslims, (hence the Crusades) and modern britons are doing it to this day. Druids did not do this. They did create Stonehenge, a wonderful mathematical analysis of the workings of the world.
I think Christians keep re-inventing atheism by their actions. | |
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| Atheists
Posted: 12/29/2005 9:01:39 PM |
To spread the word that Jesus said (I'm paraphrasing) Love Me Or Else You Will Spend An Eternity in Hell.
These are Christians then.
Xelsorsior, Christian Evangelist Michael
But of-course The Forums are for peoples point of view on the matter that is posted. Not the True Christians view point, but their own view point or opinion. | |
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| Atheists
Posted: 12/29/2005 9:11:14 PM | | You know I have a Brother who believes he is an Athiest. He tells me that he is mad at him (God) for letting Grandpa die. But if you believe in him to hate him then you are not an Athiest. | |
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| Atheists
Posted: 12/29/2005 9:19:02 PM | Here's an example of Christian love...straight from Christ's mouth....
Matthew 10:34-36 (ESV)
Do not think I have come to bring peace on earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household.
I have a friend who tries to be a good Christian. Her sister is totally secular. That sister calls her, and has only ironic comments to say about Christianity, and her life as Christian. Those words comming from her own sister are like a stab in her heart, and make her cry every time.
I have another friend. He is as well trying to be a good practicing Christian. His parents think he is nuts, his father and mother in law, also think he is nuts, and hate him because he converted their daughter (by example, patience, love, and many many tears, not force) into a Christian as well.
You want me to give you more examples of how Christianity can divide families? Yes, it does, and in most cases, Christians can do nothing about it, nommater how much love they show. They show love and receive a lot of bitterness, from their very own family.
Don't think you understand the scriptures, just because you read them, searching for more reasons to blame Christianity. When you read the bible with prejudice, its not hard to twist the meanings, to feed your prejudice some more. | |
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j-roc
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Joined: 5/24/2005
Msg: 37 | |
| Atheists
Posted: 12/29/2005 9:21:51 PM | | I use the bible to feed my predjudices just as a Christian does. I assume it means what it says...Christians interpret. With the thousands of contradictions in it I can see why someone who wants to believe it would be left with no other option then interpretation. | |
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| Atheists
Posted: 12/29/2005 9:47:55 PM | Lets place it in another way of looking at it, because this is in an atheist thread.
Ever wonder just how much Jesus misses you?
Just a thought.
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| Atheists
Posted: 12/29/2005 10:24:07 PM | Okay, I don't know how welcome comments are going to be, coming from a non-Christian non-atheist, but I just gotta ask:
How the HELL did the "Atheists" thread get turned into one on Christian apologetics?
Seriously, this is ludicrous. And, I'm not talking about the OP, since that's clearly been left in the dust. Now, it just looks like partisan bickering. In for a penny, in for a pound; here's the Feral understanding:
I was wondering, what inspires Atheists to pick on Christians, or other religious groups.
While I'm not sure to which atheists this is referring, I believe there are a couple of different "groupings." There are the false atheists (nice imagery there), who really aren't atheist, but go with the party line to piss off their parents, or because they're mad at the church or the Christian God. Moving on, you've got the "missionary atheists" who just love to point out that there's way too much religious influence in secular culture, and tend to try to separate church and state (of being). Finally (but by no means the end of the list), there are the atheists who have their own take on life, have come to it on their own, through their own observation and understanding, and just don't appreciate being the objects of someone else's sermons. Yes, there are those who "pick on" Christians and other religious groups. The same can be said of any faith. Trick question, try again.
And something else. Atheists also base their beliefs in some theories. You well know what those theories are, and "theory" is not my choice of word. They are mentioned as such.
This has already been covered, but it's written in such an elitist, condescending tone, the response bears repetition. Technically, the belief that there is a God or gods is also a theory. With or without proof, that's what it is. Welcome to the club, chappy.
Doesn't it take a dose of belief, to base your life on something that probably won't be proven untill the time you are well rotten, 3 feet under the ground?
Wouldn't that make Atheism, a form of religion just as well?
Belief, yes. Faith, in a sense. Religion, no.
Okay, questions answered, no need to piss off/on anybody. "Can't we all just... get along?" | |
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| Atheists
Posted: 12/29/2005 11:18:28 PM |
How the HELL did the "Atheists" thread get turned into one on Christian apologetics?
Feral, you surprise, most of these threads end up this way...nature of the beast.. | |
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| Atheists
Posted: 12/29/2005 11:42:33 PM | Hijacking threads is against the rules, further off-topic posts in this thread will be cause for suspension.
-- moderators | |
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| Atheists
Posted: 12/30/2005 12:34:47 AM | BOOM!!! This place is getting ready to go crazy, already Moderator advice by page two!!!
* gets out lawn chair and beach drinks and kicks back *
In my eyes, it is this simple folks...
Resistance to Christian (or other religious) doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to said matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a church; does not equate to spreading an anti-Christian (or anti-religious) truths. It may sometimes equate to that, but it does not unilaterally always equate to that. It certainly does not in my case.
Say for example, just because in my eyes your faith is wrong and untrue (for what ever reason, say again for example because your faith has killed people in the name of your god and I am a radical pacifist), need not imply that I have a superior alternative.
That thought is logically broken and inspired by a need to dogmatize an issue to justify the philosophical aggressiveness required for conversions. | |
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| Atheists
Posted: 12/30/2005 3:41:41 AM | "I was wondering, what inspires Atheists to pick on Christians, or other religious groups."
For the same reason 'Christians and or other religious groups' chastise Atheists: Fanaticism. However, you're generalizing, Dreamer. Not all Atheists chasten Theists, nor do all Theists chasten Atheists. However, some do, and in that case, both parties are guilty.
"I mean why bother? Do Atheists have a moral obligation to spread their kind of truth?"
It depends on the Atheist, as Atheism is not a fraternal force, i.e. there are Theoretical Atheists and Practical Atheists, however, Atheistic views are propagated for the same reasons religious views are propagated. Both the Theist and the Atheist have a right to circulate their beliefs. It's a civil right. Atheists have the right to disagree with the Theists' views, just as Theists have the right to propagate them.
"And something else. Atheists also base their beliefs in some theories. You well know what those theories are, and "theory" is not my choice of word. They are mentioned as such."
Some Atheists base their beliefs on scientific theories that adhere to a scientific methodology that is able to synthesize viable and testable solutions to any number of problems, theories that are reinforced by controlled tests and or investigation, and theories that produce empirically cogent evidence to fortify their hypotheses. I'm not sure what your 'choice of a word' would be, but what exactly fortifies religious theory? I ask because your attitude is one of disdain for the pursuit of knowledge through science, while on the other hand, religious doctrines rely on 'faith' for validity. I respect both. You should too.
"Doesn't it take a dose of belief, to base your life on something that probably won't be proven untill the time you are well rotten, 3 feet under the ground?"
Sure it does. Due to the intrinsic nature of Philosophical Scepticism, Epistemic paradigms are ultimately and perpetually incomplete.
"Wouldn't that make Atheism, a form of religion just as well?"
Religion: Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. The life or condition of a person in a religious order. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
In short, no. Unless you choose to adhere to the latter part of the definition, in which case, it would become a game of semantics. Atheism is simply a denial of Theism, i.e. a (not) theos (God) from the Greek.
That said, Atheism/Theism is not a viable or logical stance in a metaphysical regard. As logically, the concept of God is paradoxical and self contradictory, and cannot be either proven nor disproven. The only practicable stance is that of Agnosticism. | |
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| Atheists
Posted: 12/30/2005 7:54:35 AM | vincentspage:
Sure it does. Due to the intrinsic nature of Philosophical Scepticism, Epistemic paradigms are ultimately and perpetually incomplete
For that reason, i'd rather hear an atheist say, "Its a theory, but thats what i believe its true and i'm sticking with it" rather than mocking every religius guy out there because they think we are too zealots and narrowminded to see the plain truth.
When you can't prove anything, both sides are left with faith and belief, to God or no God. Thats their choice and it should be respected.
I don't believe in propaganda of any kind. Both ideas have been spread enough for anyone in the world to reach a hand and grab a book about them. But as a Christian, i have enough pride (i know i shouldn't) to feel like defending my beliefs when people start picking on them, when i'd rather ignore them completely.
I started this thread trying to show that both parties have a FAITH on some things, but Atheists have their own kind of zealotry and would rather say that their beliefs are based on facts, than theories.
That said, Atheism/Theism is not a viable or logical stance in a metaphysical regard. As logically, the concept of God is paradoxical and self contradictory, and cannot be either proven nor disproven. The only practicable stance is that of Agnosticism.
I have to agree, for someone who can only depend on his logic, Agnosticism is the way to go. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 45 | |
| Atheists
Posted: 12/30/2005 8:12:01 AM |
I started this thread trying to show that both parties have a FAITH on some things
But, one has faith, the other eschews it.
Neither stands up to the defined terms of the other; most on one side of the argument understand this, most on the other deal with it by co-opting the other's terms of reference. | |
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| Atheists
Posted: 12/30/2005 9:06:17 AM | "When you can't prove anything, both sides are left with faith and belief, to God or no God. Thats their choice and it should be respected."
When you say you can't prove anything, I hope you are talking about the question at hand, and not the entire history of knowledge. If it is the latter, then I must reiterate that not all theories are on equal footing. The notion that the sun is a flaming chariot driven across the sky by Aton is not factually equivalent to modern cosmology. They are both theories, but one is crude mythology and the other is supported by empirical evidence and rational consistency. As for the question of theism, yes, there really is no empirical evidence either way.
"but Atheists have their own kind of zealotry and would rather say that their beliefs are based on facts, than theories."
You are confusing atheism with science. Most Atheists do value scientific methodology, but the vast majority would never claim Atheism to be a scientific position, so what Atheist is claiming that that particular belief is based on empirical facts? I think you are tilting at windmills.
"I have to agree, for someone who can only depend on his logic, Agnosticism is the way to go."
I think you will find that, when pressed, most Atheists (or those who arrived at their position from philosophical introspection and not just rebellion towards their culture) are actually Agnostics, as their position is more a rejection of faith based reasoning than anything else. Your implication that Agnostics only rely on logic to the exclusion of all else is false though. You just don't understand the position. This hearkens back once more to the fact that not all theories are on equal footing. Agnosticism is simply the rejection of investing unwavering belief in a non-falsifiable conjecture. To repeat an old cliche- your position is not very different than mine. I only believe in one less God than you do. In other words your rejection of all other faiths besides your own is little different than my rejection of all faith based reasoning, including yours. My position is simply more consistent. | |
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| Atheists
Posted: 12/30/2005 9:58:05 AM |
I don't think God will respond to you from the toilet because that isn't where He is.
But I thought He was everywhere. | |
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| Atheists
Posted: 12/30/2005 2:45:27 PM | "Wouldn't that make Atheism, a form of religion just as well?"
I saw on this forum a while back a Lady was explaining "fundamentalism" and how it was not a christian, muslim, or Anyone problem...it was the problem of everyone who followed / follows a srtict set of rules or guidelines in their daily comportment and will not tolerate any deviation...
So in that sense...the answer to your question would be ( interestingly, and laughingly ) a great big Yes!!!
But I take ( as I think othere do also ) a slight exception to your generalization that "Atheist" do this ...which I would assume you meant to be taken to mean All Atheists... and I am fairly sure that this is not the case...
Just as I KNOW it is not the case that All Fundamentalist Christians, or All Christians go around picketing abortion clinics, and writing down the license plate numbers of the people observed going in and coming out , only to post the name and address of that person on the internet ...calling for their deaths... I KNOW that all fundamentalists or all christians are Not responsible for this criminal and quite sinful activity...I am sure you agree...
Are there some in each camp that seem to make a generous emotional living out of acting a fool??? I would say resoundingly .."YES" ...Do they all do those things???/ "NO"...
Anything taken to the extreme of life devotion is "religion"...anything taken to the religious point of complete non-tolerance of any and all others...that is "fanatactical",.."fundamentalist",...dogma...
Good Question .... | |
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| Atheists
Posted: 12/30/2005 2:47:54 PM | "For that reason, i'd rather hear an atheist say, "Its a theory, but thats what i believe its true and i'm sticking with it" rather than mocking every religius guy out there because they think we are too zealots and narrowminded to see the plain truth."
There's a monumental difference between 'Scientific Theory' and 'Theory'. Thermodynamics, General and Special Relativity, Quantum Electrodynamics, Perturbation Series, Wheeler-Feynman Absorber Interpretation,etc. are all 'Scientific Theory'. Christianity, Buddhism, Gnosticism, Idealism, Fallibilism, Hedonism, Reism, etc. are all 'Theory'. That said, I agree that no one should mock another individual's belief system.
"When you can't prove anything, both sides are left with faith and belief, to God or no God. Thats their choice and it should be respected."
Wonka responded to this one nicely and in great context. Dreamer, I'm not sure if you're fully aware of what perpetually incomplete epistemic paradigms entail. However, again, I agree that all choices and modes of belief, as long as they don't infringe on another person's belief system, should be respected.
"I don't believe in propaganda of any kind. Both ideas have been spread enough for anyone in the world to reach a hand and grab a book about them. But as a Christian, i have enough pride (i know i shouldn't) to feel like defending my beliefs when people start picking on them, when i'd rather ignore them completely."
I like your attitude. However, know that in most cases, Atheistic beliefs are made apparent through contestation. For example: Theist: "I believe in God." Atheist: "I don't." I have never seen an Atheist on a street corner espousing his non belief in God, however, I have seen religious zealots on street corners preaching their theistic beliefs, and Atheists revealing their contrary stance in opposition.
"I started this thread trying to show that both parties have a FAITH on some things, but Atheists have their own kind of zealotry and would rather say that their beliefs are based on facts, than theories."
See above. | |
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| Atheists
Posted: 12/30/2005 3:26:39 PM | | I have to ask the same question as Never. Plus how can a person who does not believe or doubts belief Judge whether or not a person is following their faith? | |
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