|
|
|
|
|
| Atheists
Posted: 1/2/2006 9:55:28 PM | Hi folks. Short time listener, first time caller. Some athiests pick on other people for the same reason anyone else does. It's called insecurity. Don't get me wrong, there are insecure people within any field. Harsh behavior seems, to me at least, to be a way of compensating for a lack of confidence in ones own ideas. Judging by the level of sophistication displayed in the posts I've read so far, I'm glad to have stumbled onto it. Honestly, I feel as though athiesm, as much as any religion, turns out to be based on conjecture about the nature of ultimate reality. In other words metaphysics. Obviously, people buy into these ideas and construct perceptual filters through which all evidence henceforth must pass to qualify as '' truth '' or '' knowlege ''. The funny thing is that it's always the other guy doing the reality filtering! Maybe I'm wrong, any way, bed time for me. thanks for listening  | |
|
| Atheists
Posted: 1/2/2006 11:00:22 PM | | *searches* for reality filter....gee I guess any filter is just a filter, even our education.. | |
|
| Atheists
Posted: 1/3/2006 12:30:12 AM | Rhusbr, I understand fully what argument you are trying to impart with Atheism vis a vis Agnosticism. What I am explaining to you is that in contemporary religious philosophy, Atheism is understood as Theoretical Atheism and Agnosticism as an indeterminate stance on the issue. Times have changed. Atheism is not synonymous with Agnosticism. Clarity is needed on this issue and defining terms must be ascertained if we are to get any where with this argument. In the end, as I've said before, we are not in disagreement and I agree that we are splitting hairs.
That said, I enjoyed this discussion, Rhusbr. You've a good head on your shoulders. If you have the inclination, seek out a poster by the name of Wonkavision. He's a good friend of mine and a great thinker. As for myself, school begins in a few days and I'll be leaving POF. Take care. | |
|
| Atheists
Posted: 1/3/2006 2:07:03 AM | | I understand athiests because they can see that religion can make a good man bad and that is true. They see the evil and stupidity of religion and the evil people that control it. I do not believe in religion either but I believe in God. | |
|
rhusbr
|
Joined: 10/30/2005
Msg: 80 | |
| Atheists
Posted: 1/3/2006 6:44:14 PM | | Vincent, You obviously know your stuff, and unlike many on this subject, are completely intellectually honest. Hope you won't be gone for long, so we can discuss other issues. Thanks for comments. | |
|
| Atheists
Posted: 1/4/2006 12:23:36 AM |
This he called "Credo ut intelligam" or Belief before understanding. The Atheistic inversion would be, "Intelligam ut Credo". This is an interesting postulation, and becomes even more interesting when understood in conjunction with Wittgenstein's interpretation. It's been a long time since I read W -- to which interpretation are you referring? The "Investigations" ? | |
|
| Atheists
Posted: 1/4/2006 2:36:35 AM | Morning, Linguatic. Good to see you on this thread.
To answer your question thoroughly, there are a few things you should first be aware of. St. Anselm derived "Credo ut intelligam" from St. Augustine's discourse on faith. Anselm's maxim solved for the dilemma in Theology regarding the mystery of faith, i.e. how faith and reason may co-occur. Anselm stressed Augustine's proposition in conjunction with the mystery of faith, by stating "fides quaerens intellectum" or faith seeking understanding, in his Proslogion. By doing this, he gave religious 'faith' and 'reason' the means to collocate. This led to many brilliant interpretations on faith/reason and doctrine from Aquinas to Kierkegaard.
I bring this up because you correctly mentioned Wittgenstein's "Philosophical Investigations" where he discusses the nature of Augustine/Anselm's maxim. However, what makes Wittgenstein's interpretation so unique is that his treatise was in regards to meaning and what he calls 'Private Language' i.e. that a personal 'meaning' on theory and sequent 'understanding' cannot exist separately from the world due to Semiotics. Essentially, Wittgenstein posits that:
1. Our beliefs are taken from a paradigm of beliefs.
2. This paradigm of belief is built via our understanding of the world.
3. Our understanding of the world is tainted by our culture, nature and language.
4. Therefore, pure introspection is impossible due to this, and pure immersion into faith is impossible.
Wittgenstein's treatise "Philosophical Investigations" and "On Certainty" delves into the meaning of belief and how it relates to semiotics. Very interesting interpretation. His earlier work, "Tractatus", explored language even deeper and is Witt's developmental propositional calculus of propositions. In this work, he also correlates the validity of belief with the calculi and called this linguistical phenomena 'Semiotic Mysticism' and formulated the decree, "Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent". Essentially, it acts as a preface to his "Philosophical Investigations" and "On Certainty".
In any case, Linguatic, if you're interested in this line of reasoning, "Philosophical Investigations" will not be enough to render complete understanding. Read also "Tractatus" and "On Certainty" by Wittgenstein, Kripke's "Wittgenstein on Rules and Private Language", Augustine's Sermons and "On the City of God", and Anselm's "Proslogion" and "Monologion". And if you're really, really, interested, read Kierkegaard's "Concluding Unscientific Postcript" where he discusses why a "Leap of Faith" is necessary in reconciling belief with Christianity.
Always enjoyed your posts, Linguatic. Take care. | |
|
| Atheists
Posted: 1/4/2006 3:24:39 AM | Yeah, I wasn't sure if I remembered correctly that he had explicitly discussed Anselm in the Investigations. I actually had read most of the things on your list back before I tried sex and beer. Not Anselm and Augustine, though, just the Cliff's Notes versions. I should probably re-read the Kierkegaard now that I'm an adult, it was kind of tedious in high school. And I only skimmed "On Certainty". It didn't have enough pictures.
It was, in fact, the Tractatus and the Investigations which inspired my ersatz epigram on knives. I think you summarized them well. Congratulations on a successful "dumbing down". | |
|
| Atheists
Posted: 1/17/2008 1:03:51 AM | | OK first off, I have revised my core beliefs to envelope most faiths. Tolerant beliefs, and intolerant beliefs. I was raised Roman Catholic till 13. My mom later started branching off from Yoga, and then into meditation, then into Numerology etc etc. Suffice to say, being raised a Catholic I was taught this was wrong and off to hell she would go. I read, and researched, eventually becoming somewhat of a new age thinker. I used to pride myself on winning debates with well educated atheists fairly often. One day I woke up. I asked myself a simple question, had I ever seen a spirit? What is a fact? What is proof? I realized that so many people are blind to their beliefs or because of their beliefs. It's sad. I mean there is no proof as to an afterlife or the debate would be over. Furthermore there is no proof that an afterlife does not exist or once again, the debate would be over. Moreover, just because the world has intelligence (ie, DNA, Atoms, etc etc) on a core level does not mean that a divine being made them. People fail to question what reality is. The sad truth is, that while the debate rages on, it is costing us all our world, and our childrens world while we debate over junk that is not helping save lives. Its helping people to kill people. We are killing ourselves over beliefs. Its sick. I have one belief, its just tolerance. You can bet I shove it down the throat of anybody that does not practice it. What happens when you are dead is your business, but while you are alive, you should conduct yourself with respect towards others... we are on this dust ball together regardless of how we got here. Thats my atheism for you. I value others more than what I think is right. BECAUSE ANY OF US COULD BE WRONG. | |
|
| Atheists
Posted: 1/17/2008 7:30:47 AM | I was wondering, what inspires Atheists to pick on Christians, or other religious groups.
I'm an agnostic, not an atheist, but the key words for me here is "groups". I've no bone to pick with a member of any religious group but I have many bones to pick with christianity and other religious groups as a whole. Some of the most dastardly deeds committed against humanity have been committed "in the name of god" and justified as "god's will". Sure atheists like Joe Stalin and his coharts are equally despicable but it is my firm feeling that if all religion was eliminated there would be far fewer wars, discrimination and elitist bias and we would all live in a safer place. Nothing against you descent faithful who like me try to contribute to the betterment of our society, but the history of your religions frankly turn my stomach. So I work to express my disgust for the groups you belong to just as you likely are disgusted with the KKK or Nazis. | |
|
| Atheists
Posted: 1/17/2008 7:37:13 AM | A quick question
Is it "religion" per se that is dangerous, or elitism? I am beginning to think that elitism, in any form is dangerous, whether it is based on religious thought, philisophical thought or any other basis.
I don't think "faith".. in it's pure form (ie: that there is something bigger than ourselves out there and it supports us) is a bad thing, it's when it is considered the sole property of a certain "group" that it morph's into something inimicable to the community at large.
Just a thought... any ideas? | |
|
| Atheists
Posted: 1/17/2008 10:16:10 AM | Yeah, I think it's elitism for sure... That negates other perspectives on the divine and forcefully makes views otherwise learned from, disappear.
Elitism destroys any comparitive study... That is dangerous as it stagnates our ability to learn, share and compare.
Conformity negates uniqueness and all are unique... No exceptions thus far. | |
|
| Atheists
Posted: 1/17/2008 1:03:12 PM | How did i miss this thread?
I don't know what others think about elitism or religion but i have a strong reaction to all religion. One comment that was made by one poster was that either way Atheists lose and this is how i see religion, a gamble. Believe just in case. Surely if 2 billion Christians lived like Jesus the world would be a better place? Pick any religion and the same applies.
Even those who can see through the trappings of religion go for alternative beliefs systems all based on the same principle, the same brain washing, with a different Sunday suit. Real change will have to come from a radical shift in each mind. One that is not violent, non Chaotic, and includes everyone as an equal.
Christian's are very vocal and if they could would take over governments to create a world they can live and believe the way they want in freedom. They have shown in the past they are not tolerant of anyone else's beliefs and as a result it is extremely important to keep this in check. There would be nothing better then not to talk about all this nonsense but if we didn't our freedom's would be taken away from us as they were in the past by Christians.
Atheist's are oppositional with very good reasons and even though i don't believe strongly enough to be an atheist I would stand united to keep Christians from coming into power. Its absolutely mind bending that religion is even allowed in this day of age, but it is understandable as the government needs a docile population to pillage as it isn't acceptable any more to take over other countries in your own name. | |
|
| Atheists
Posted: 1/17/2008 1:16:46 PM |
I was wondering, what inspires Atheists to pick on Christians, or other religious groups. Probably the same things that inspire many non-Atheists to pick on other groups.
I mean why bother? Do Atheists have a moral obligation to spread their kind of truth? The word atheism just means that you don't have a definite belief in G-d, or you have a definite belief that there is no G-d. There is no moral obligation implied by being an atheist, or a need to ever say the truth.
And something else. Atheists also base their beliefs in some theories. You well know what those theories are, and "theory" is not my choice of word. They are mentioned as such. SOME atheists try and use SOME scientific theories about something physical to justify their beliefs about G-d, when there simply is no logical reason that any scientific theories preclude an existence in G-d.
Doesn't it take a dose of belief, to base your life on something that probably won't be proven untill the time you are well rotten, 3 feet under the ground? Of course it does, and the noted atheist philosopher, Sartre, said just that. But Sartre was a real philosopher who really thought about things. How many people do you know who spent years pondering the essences of their lives?
Wouldn't that make Atheism, a form of religion just as well? There is an argument that I can see that would imply that atheists have a "religious belief", if you consider that a religion includes mutually exclusive beliefs, such as monotheism, polytheism, enlightenment, and other belief systems that speak about the purpose of life, where life comes from, what distinguishes us from treating animals like humans, such as giving animals the vote and the right to defend their territory from humans, and what will happen in the future. However, as atheism itself does not imply a definite religion, an atheist can have any one of a thousand such beliefs. In fact, atheists are Christians. Well, not all atheists. But some are. The Bishop of Durham said that a person can be an atheist and a Christian, and many people agreed with him, and he wasn't excommunicated for saying so. So you can be an atheist and a Christian. In short, atheism implies that you have some kind of belief that touches on the same issues as religion seems to. | |
|
| Atheists
Posted: 1/18/2008 11:36:36 AM | I'm not sure what has set this bee in your bonnet Lots but it does seem to rile you some....or is it one of those light the blue touchpaper and stand back kind of posts....*scratches head*
Before responding....I'll declare my position regards the theism / atheism continuum, and say that my views are positioned somewhere between the agnosticism / atheism end of the spectrum. I refer to a continuum of belief, because that is the reality with regard to belief/disbelief in god/s. Somehow atheists get lumped together as some kind of monolithic block, with some kind of cloned indistinguishable set of beliefs, just as christians and moslems, and hindus are often seen as identical within their own faiths....the reality is that each of the "great" faiths have their factions....that in the extreme, would dispute until blood is spilled liberally on the ground as to the absolute truth of their particular faction and the absolute heresy of falsity of factions that do not conform to the one "true" faith or set of dogmas.
I was wondering, what inspires Atheists to pick on Christians, or other religious groups.
Some hard core atheists are probably no different to some hard core theists (of whatever flavour) in prosletysing their beliefs.....with both sides of the atheism/theism coin possibly having motivations not essentially different to each other. The essential difference is the methodology that they employ to put forward their relative cases. Theists in the main, argue from the point of scriptural authority....Atheists don't have sacred sciptures as such, despite what some theists might say of Darwin's "The Origin of Species" et al [wink] (Although, many atheists would contend that Darwin was a very learned man...I doubt that any would deify him with supernatural powers in the same way that theists would, their particular flavour of god/s)
Some atheists take themselves seriously...and some do not....many theists take their beliefs, seriously, but there are many who are not without a sense of humour, and are prepared to sling mud good naturedly with the rest of jokers in the sandpit that some of these fora become, from time to time. Some atheists find it difficult seeing a howler posted to a thread, without dissecting it with some forensic counterpoint, just as some theist's find it difficult seeing some benighted sinner travelling towards perdition, without making some attempt at saving their soul.
I mean why bother? Do Atheists have a moral obligation to spread their kind of truth? Perhaps, in a sense they do....have a moral obligation....the free thinkers who took a stance during the enlightenment, at no small risk to themselves, in rolling back the power and control exerted by devout theists have changed the world...some might argue for the better....some might argue for the worse. What kind of a civilisation /society would exist if the standard form of government was a theocratic one instead of pluralistic secular democracies. Some atheists may be on a mission of sorts...but most are not.
And something else. Atheists also base their beliefs in some theories. You well know what those theories are, and "theory" is not my choice of word. They are mentioned as such.
This paragraph seems to be a not very coherant rant....others before me have answered the question adequately, and I don't have anything further to add, other than that a scientific theory is subject to review, and that if evidence can be found that is compelling enough to falsify the theory, then the theory fails. A good example of this is the scientific debate between Pasteur and his "germ theory" and his detractors and their theory of "spontaneous generation (of microorganisms)" The same cannot be said of scriptural dogma....which, as the "inspired" word of god, (for the monotheistic faiths) is inerrant....god does not make mistakes apparently.
Christians, moslems and other believers of other faiths are, arguably, virtually atheist's themselves....just that they usually disbelieve one less god (in the case of monotheists) than the hard core atheists do! [wink].
Doesn't it take a dose of belief, to base your life on something that probably won't be proven untill the time you are well rotten, 3 feet under the ground? (sic)
Most would be content with making an evaluation on the balance of probabilities, from either viewpoint, just that the skeptics aren't prepared to wager on an entertaining fiction with their life. They would prefer to live their life as though it was the only one they had, rather than, accepting Pascal's wager and living it in submission to a set of religious dogmas on the off chance that god does exist, thereby hoping to gain preferrment in "paradise".
Wouldn't that make Atheism, a form of religion just as well?
Not necessarily.....I guess it depends upon how one defines religion.
If as a working definition we use the Wikipedia definition of religion, atheism does not meet many of the essential elements of a religion.
A religion is a set of common beliefs and practices generally held by a group of people, often codified as prayer, ritual, and religious law
Atheism has codified prayer? ....................................................No
but perhaps a prayer could be drafted......Our Dawin who art in evolution, published be thine name, give us this our natural selection, as those of our primate ancestors who were naturally selected showed their fitness to reproduce. Lead us not into creationism and deliver us from intelligent design, for thine is the Beagle, and the Origin of Species (until a better theory can be devised and substantiated)....amen!
Atheism has codified ritual?.......................................................No
but I am sure that there are undoubtedly some atheists that like dressing up in peculiar garb, as much as some theists do, and like to dance their equivalent of "The Resurrection Shuffle"
Atheism has religious law?..........................................................No
Unless Ohm's law, Boyles law, and E=MC2 qualify
Atheism has belief in the supernatural?......................................No
Unless quarks are considered a supernatural entity.
Atheism involves mystical experience........................................Probably not....though discovering a new theorem would probably come very close I would expect. | |
|
| Atheists
Posted: 1/19/2008 2:39:21 PM | Guys, this google video is relevant here, an atheist in search of a surf, natural paradise experiences dying and the supernatural. It is the story.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3682855866783766146
It is testimony and evidences verses theory and doubt. | |
|
| Atheists
Posted: 1/19/2008 6:43:01 PM |
Is it "religion" per se that is dangerous, or elitism?
Excellent question. It is the elitism that is at the core of the danger. And of course there are other elitist organzations that are not religious that have committed attrocities and I despise those as well. But any group that believes that they are somehow superior beings, and I don't just mean as regards to humans, is by definition elitist. When you toss in this concept of believe as I do or else it compounds the issue and aggravates my sense of morals and fairness even further. | |
|
| Atheists
Posted: 1/19/2008 7:03:07 PM | | ^^^ Excellent point, jrbogie. Truly excellent. | |
|
| Atheists
Posted: 1/19/2008 9:34:49 PM |
I was wondering, what inspires Atheists to pick on Christians, or other religious groups.
Hmmmmmmmmmmm. (Since you're attacking athiests whole sale, I will make broad generalizations about christians. )
regarding christians. I'm just returning the favor. You people wore out your welcome with this last little war and all your self-righteous claims to Morality.
I mean why bother? Do Atheists have a moral obligation to spread their kind of truth?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
I bother because christianity is a bunch of nonsense, and i don't like talking to people with heads full of nonsense. i would argue that most athiests would claim that they have a human, rather than moral obligation. morality is such a loaded topic. truth isn't contingent upon metaphysical doctrines.
And something else. Atheists also base their beliefs in some theories. You well know what those theories are, and "theory" is not my choice of word. They are mentioned as such.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
well, if you can learn everything you need to learn in life from the bible, take all your damn brats out of the school system. Don't watch TV, and Don't read the newspaper.
Doesn't it take a dose of belief, to base your life on something that probably won't be proven untill the time you are well rotten, 3 feet under the ground?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
but then I won't care.
Wouldn't that make Atheism, a form of religion just as well?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
no. | |
|
| Atheists
Posted: 1/19/2008 11:47:05 PM | I was wondering, what inspires Atheists to pick on Christians, or other religious groups. Although Id perhaps replace the words "pick on", with "actively seeks out in order to oppose in various degrees and ways", I'd say the their motivation varies quite a bit, and can only guess as to why.
The most common answer that I have received by asking directly is due to anger. (At either Christians themselves or their God.)
It's the christians. Why is christianity mocked? Because of the christians. Why do athiest attack christianity? Because of the christians.
No person deserves to be attacked or mocked. Ever.
Christianity goes against most of the things I believe to be right and true in this world. Still, no justification to attack or mock.
Atheism goes against everything I believe to be right and true, so the same could be said by me, possible more so due to the reference of my faith as "stupid, disgusting and idiotic, yet I feel no need to mock or attack..
I think that is a point made. Christians cannot accept that anyone else has a right to their own beliefs. Making such broad generalizations are easy ways to be proven wrong
Thats why Chrisitians are so damned annoying, they think everybody want to play in their court, and NO WE DONT!!!! Mature Christians are quite thoroughly convinced that many despise our "court"
~I no longer become offended or hurt when those of other "beliefs" say things negatively regarding my faith in God. Some of those statements, have actually proved to be priceless refining fire and buffeting tools, encouraging my growth in and knowledge of God. | |
|
| Atheists
Posted: 1/20/2008 3:18:01 PM | jerminaszonal says: " Muslims have killed more people than x-tians to impose their beleifs (sic) on others. Get the facts my friend."
Really? I suspect the native peoples of the Western Hemisphere and Africa might argue with you on those facts. | |
|
| Atheists
Posted: 1/20/2008 3:23:10 PM |
Really? I suspect the native peoples of the Western Hemisphere and Africa might argue with you on those facts. I guess the Kurds would argue with the native peoples of the Western Hemisphere and Africa, then. | |
|
| Atheists
Posted: 1/20/2008 3:58:48 PM | | Really there have been millions of Kurds wiped out by by Muslims? I guess I missed that. | |
|
| Atheists
Posted: 1/20/2008 5:07:57 PM |
Really there have been millions of Kurds wiped out by by Muslims? I guess I missed that. There have been millions of Native Americans and Africans wiped out in one war? Guess I must have missed that as well.
By the way, you might not know that when the English went into Africa, it was all about money and power. Religion had nothing to do with it. | |
|
| Atheists
Posted: 1/20/2008 5:10:43 PM | | Double post | |
|
|
|
Home
login 
