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Posted: 1/20/2008 5:59:59 PM |
True Christianity teaches love and peace and forgiveness. The very early Christians were pacifists. True Christians are and always have been against lies and violence and war.
I know this is goin' back some but I wanted to acknowledge it. If all Christians thought like this I would be very much closer to them.
P.S. I'm agnostic not athiest.
I agree whole heartedly. | |
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Posted: 1/20/2008 7:40:08 PM | Nice straw man argument there Scorpio.
( A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.)
Who said anything about the millions killed in one war.
Who said anything about war at all.
Most of the previous mentioned killings were a result of centuries long policies rather than war. So if your point is killing by policy rather than combat is somehow more acceptable. So be it.
I did forgot to mention the 7 million Jews killed by Germany for religious reasons.
FYI Africa was colonized in the last 4 centuries by the British, French, Dutch, Germans, Italians, and Portuguese all Christian nations.
My point was not that killing was done for religious reason, rather it was that Christian countries have done more of it. Thats why we have most of the wealth in the world.
If we were limiting it to religious reasons I would have to greatly discount your Kurdish argument. Primarily killed over an independence movement by Iraq and Turkey.
Not to minimize killing for any reason religious or secular. There is plenty of blood on the hands of most religions, the monotheistic ones in particular. It seems when one believes God is on their side no wrong can be done.
Now if you want to talk subjugation of women. I would have to say Christian nations can speak with high degree of moral authority. | |
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Posted: 1/20/2008 7:53:48 PM | | Scorpio by the way you can not separate money and power from religion. Religion is all about money and power. From the pope crowning Constantine to the queen of England ( defender of the faith) to Sunday morning televangelists devising ways to stimulate donations and influencing followers to vote a particular way. They are a team religion and politics. Religion was a big part of colonization look at all the Christianity in Sub Saharan Africa. Is that a product of colonization oh ya. | |
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Posted: 1/20/2008 8:45:12 PM |
Nice straw man argument there Scorpio.
( A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.) That is exactly what you are doing.
Most of the previous mentioned killings were a result of centuries long policies rather than war. So if your point is killing by policy rather than combat is somehow more acceptable. I never suggested that. But you just did.
I did forgot to mention the 7 million Jews killed by Germany for religious reasons. I'm Jewish. So I know a lot about it. It wasn't done in the name of Christianity, because Catholics were killed in the camps as well. It was pure hatred of Jews, to such an extent that even people and their parents and their grandparents who had no connection with religion, were killled, merely because one of their grandparents were Jewish. It was genocide. Not religiously based at all.
FYI Africa was colonized in the last 4 centuries by the British, French, Dutch, Germans, Italians, and Portuguese all Christian nations. How do you think I know that Britain "colonised" parts of it? You're not telling me anything new. All of those countries invaded Africa, China and the Far East for money and power. If you check up on it, you will find that they followed a 3-step plan:
1) Establish a trading post
2) Extend the trading post and then claim you need soldiers to protect it
3) Get the princes and nobles onside with proimises of riches and power, stage a coup d'etat, and put in a puppet government.
Then they would treat the country as their own personal property.
My point was not that killing was done for religious reason, rather it was that Christian countries have done more of it. Thats why we have most of the wealth in the world. But they weren't the only Christian countries. Also, France and Italy were Catholic. The Netherlands, England and Germany were Protestant when they started invading African countries. Catholics and Protestants saw each other as the enemy, a war that was still going on in the last century in places like Northern Ireland. So there was no consistency of religion at all. Also, other countries were doing their own "colonisations", like Japan.
So, let us look at what WAS similar about the countries that you are referring to.
1) They all were in Europe.
2) They were all powerful countries at the time of the "colonisation" that you spoke to, with powerful naval fleets.
Now, some people believe these countries acted as a kind of "cartel". Did they? No. Becaue England was at war many times with France, one war lasted a hundred years.
In the beginning of such invasions, they started with trading posts, which warred with each other. Eventually, though, it became clear that they were not gaining anything, because they spent all their time fighting with each other. So they elected to divide up these new territories between them. But as you can imagine, they found it very, very hard to agree with each other. So the Catholic Church decided to interced in a lot of disputes and act as a mediator. For instance, Spain and Portugal both wanted South America. They agreed to abide by the Pope's decision. The Pope drew a nice round line through South America, gave the circle to Portugal and the rest to Spain, which is why the whole of South America speaks Spanish and only Brazil speaks Portugese. It is also why Brazil is so big. The Pope was trying to split the land and the resources in half between Spain and Portugal.
By the way, the word is "imperialism", not "colonisation". "Colonisation" was the word the Europeans gave to such invasions, in order to make them seem less nasty. It was propaganda.
But then there is another question. Why does European culture feature so dominantly in the world? When you look at a typical map, it seems that way. But only when you consider that the maps we use WERE MADE BY EUROPEAN COUNTRIES. So European dominated continents were made to seem bigger. However if you look at a truly global map, Asia is much, much bigger. Most Asian nations were far more interested in conquering Asia, because it was so large. European coutries didn't manage to conquer Europe, because they were roughly evenly matched, and Europe is quite small, so there wasn't much to conquer. So Europeans went outside of their own continent for invasions.
But that still doesn't explain why Europeans were so successful. The real reason was the gun. European Christian civilisation loved science, technology and "progress". So they embraced the gun, and the cannon, enthusiastically. Asian, African and Native American peoples did not see much use in the gun or the cannon. They simply didn't develop it all that much. That is why countries such as Poland didn't make such colonisations. They didn't bother with the gun.
It was the gun, and the inventions that were spawned off it, such as the Gatling gun, that conquered the Native Americans and the Africans so well. It's really tough to fight a gun if you don't have one.
But once those cultures embraced the gun, as Africans now have, the Europeans were suddenly matched in weaponry, but were outnumbered. So they were pushed out. Slowly, because they had so much hold over those countries. But in the end, the gun won out again.
If we were limiting it to religious reasons I would have to greatly discount your Kurdish argument. Primarily killed over an independence movement by Iraq and Turkey. I was bringing the Kurds as an example of a people who had their own religions, Alevism, Yarsan and Yazidism, and that was one part of why they wanted their independence. But I guess you missed that.
Not to minimize killing for any reason religious or secular. There is plenty of blood on the hands of most religions, the monotheistic ones in particular. It seems when one believes God is on their side no wrong can be done. I really think you ought to read more. The Japanese Emperor, Hirohito, claimed that he was supported by Japan's gods in his war on America and on taking over parts of China and the Far East.
Now if you want to talk subjugation of women. I would have to say Christian nations can speak with high degree of moral authority. Strange. What Christian countries have the law that a woman must walk 3 paces behind a man? What Christian countries and peoples practise "honour killings"? What Christian countries and peoples have the tradition that when a man dies, his wife must die with him, by being burnt alive?
I realise that you've heard a lot of things. So have I. But if you choose to study ALL of history, you get a more balanced perspective. However, I can see where you are coming from. A lot of Canadians and Americans have only studied the history of their conquering ancestors, the Europeans, and many such people have become so insular, they just don't pay attention to the rest of the world.
What annoys me, is that people don't know the injustices that are going on today. I used to hang out with a friend who likes to watch the news. A few weeks after the Boxing Day Tsunami of 2005, he found a report on the teletext news, that the US had an early warning system for global tsunamis, in case one attacked the United States. This early warning system detected that a major tsunami was going to hit the countries in the Far East, several hours ahead of its ETA. The people running the system reported it, and asked if they could warn the countries involved and they were flatly told not to. | |
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Posted: 1/20/2008 11:12:00 PM |
So if your point is killing by policy rather than combat is somehow more acceptable. So be it Isn't that a "Straw man"? Where's an irony icon when you need one? 
I did forgot to mention the 7 million Jews killed by Germany for religious reasons. And another one . Hitler's "Final Solution" was never a religious one. It was always seen as a necessity for political and economic reasons. And a rather large does of hatred and evil. Even his own writing (mad drivel??) make that clear.
FYI Africa was colonized in the last 4 centuries by the British, French, Dutch, Germans, Italians, and Portuguese all Christian nations. And another one (are you doing this for illustrative purposes? Because if you are, I think we've got it.) They acted because of "power" and "wealth". Read the history books. It had nothing to do with religion. I don't think the nations you mentioned even bothered to dress their actions in religious garb in order to make it seem more decent. They were openly greedy and acted thusly.
So, you wanna try again and this time lead by example? | |
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Posted: 1/21/2008 12:57:40 AM | BelievingIsSeing,
Some do it just to get attention, some do it because they are very hungry for God but they don't know how to express it, some are just lacking wisdom and some have never been shown love and if they see others experiencing that happiness, they don't think it's fair. Nevertheless they will try and reason why but I believe its mostly because they are hungry for the Truth....the hostile ones anyway.
Some times i can't believe the utter audacity of some people. Its one thing to preach, its another to project a need onto another person. When you say its because 'they' are hungry for God I actually feel rage towards you because nothing could be further then the truth. When you live with an abuser that constantly uses God as a tool for his abuse you you get a different perspective of God then others. You learn how gods so called word can be used in any way you like to justify what ever behaviour you have while giving the illusion to everyone around you that you are a moral human being.
I have no hunger for god, nor do i look for attention, and as for lacking wisdom... well its quite obvious by your statement that you can't make that judgement at all. I can say i did have a hunger to find truth though, but i'm quite happy with my search without god thank you very much.
You want to know why 'some' atheists attack Christians? simply ask. I'll tell you straight up that you are one who would find people attacking you because you tell others what they should feel and think and if they don't its because there is something wrong with them. Kind of like my father shoving the word of god down my throat as he locked the door on a basement or attic. What you are doing is perpetuating the abuse and pretending it is ok. Your attitude exemplifies the need to have voices like yours quelled. I am not a violent man but you sir bring that out in me by telling me or 'atheists' what we think and feel something that isn't true and tell us that it is some lack in us. In essence you put yourself above me and try to push me down like any other abuser does while hiding behind god. I wonder how your god would see that on judgement day. | |
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Posted: 1/21/2008 1:14:22 AM | You know, I wasn't going to add to this thread until I read this:
Some do it just to get attention, some do it because they are very hungry for God but they don't know how to express it, some are just lacking wisdom and some have never been shown love and if they see others experiencing that happiness, they don't think it's fair. Nevertheless they will try and reason why but I believe its mostly because they are hungry for the Truth....the hostile ones anyway.
I see I'm not the only person on these boards to be outraged by statements such as these. It's actually ironic that you feel that Christians and other religious people are continually victimised by the Atheists or other 'un-faithfuls'. Sure, some may, but for the most part, Atheists/Agnostics or whatever argue using logic, and question religious beliefs because they do not appear to sit well with the real world. You get 'high and mighty' types from all groups, as you most certainly have shown us.
Your comments basically exude the attitude that those who do not believe in God are inferior or pathetic. I can assure you that I am NOT hungry for God, and I'm articulate and conscious enough of myself to know that I am not. I grew up in a very stable and loving family and have many very close friends who I love wholeheartedly. I don't sit there mewling in a corner because you believe that Christians are fundamentally happier and wiser people.
I hunger for truth and understanding of the real world for what it is, and I seek this through science and the arts. I do NOT hunger for the Truth you call the bible. Frankly, that you'd assume that we are lesser and to be pitied is nothing short of blatantly offensive. | |
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Posted: 1/21/2008 2:31:10 AM |
And another one . Hitler's "Final Solution" was never a religious one. It was always seen as a necessity for political and economic reasons. And a rather large does of hatred and evil. Even his own writing (mad drivel??) make that clear.
The basis of the "Final Solution" had to a be a religious.
It made no sense economically (the Jews Hitler killed could have been used as soldiers or workers)...it made no sense politically as the Jews had little ,if any authority, in nations Hitler conquered.
It diverted men and materiel needed in the war effort for something that provided no appreciable benefit.
The only way Hitler was able to commit the atrocities that he did was to give it a veneer of religious "authenticity."
By dehumanizing Jews and portraying them as religiously deviant he was able to have people commit unspeakable acts
It always strikes me that religious people say Hitler was not motivated by religious reasons but fail to show where he disavowed at any time, a belief in religion.
One of Hitler's first acts upon assuming power was to eradicate the Freethinkers (Atheists) Union in Germany.
Why would a non-religious leader do something like that? | |
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Posted: 1/21/2008 2:56:52 AM |
God created all the science and arts. The only truth and understanding of the real world is that He is the creator of it all.
You honestly don't see how this irritates people?
L . e . a . v . e. i . t . b. e.
I don't particularly mind what your beliefs are, but don't try and wrangle them into mine. Very little irritates me more than circular reasoning and blatant preaching. | |
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Posted: 1/21/2008 2:58:51 AM | Reply to cocytus:
The only way Hitler was able to commit the atrocities that he did was to give it a veneer of religious "authenticity."
By dehumanizing Jews and portraying them as religiously deviant he was able to have people commit unspeakable acts
This doesn't explain why Jews such as St. Edith Stein, a Jewish woman who converted to Catholicism and became a nun, still ended up in Auschwitz camp. On July 20, 1942, the Dutch Catholic Bishops' Conference issued a statement against Nazi racism and had it read in every church in the country. In retaliation, the Nazis ordered all converted Jews into the camps who hadn't been arrested already.
Furthermore, only half of the camp victims were Jews. The other half were mostly Christians of some form or another, but of undesirable race. Poles were major victims of the camps. St. Maximilian Kolbe was a Polish Catholic priest and one of many thousands of clergy to die. There were entire blocks for priests. Even bishops found their way into them.
Furthermore, you're forgetting how "religious deviant" many members of the Nazi hierarchy were. Nazi ideology promoted a sort of pre-Christian reconstruction of Norse paganism. Hitler himself harshly criticized Christianity later in his career as a sort of **stard child of Judaism. Here are a few of Hitler's anti-Christian and anti-religious statements:
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941
"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)
10th October, 1941, midday
"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (p 43)
14th October, 1941, midday
"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
"Christianity the liar....
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52)
19th October, 1941, night
"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."
21st October, 1941, midday
"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer....
"The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation....
"Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea." (p 63-65)
13th December, 1941, midnight
"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... ....
"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." (p 118-119)
14th December, 1941, midday
"Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself....
"Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics." (p 119 & 120)
9th April, 1942, dinner
"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity." (p 339)
27th February, 1942, midday
"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."
"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278) | |
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Posted: 1/21/2008 3:06:24 AM | ^^^^^^
The Final Solution made little in the way of "sense."
The Nazis killed a huge number of Gypsies and Soviet POWs as well.
Hitler never renounced his faith publicly and although he committed a number of acts which would warrant it...he was never excommunicated.
He also had a close relationship w/ the leaders of the Catholic and Lutheran churches in Germany as well as the Vatican.
Atheist...even an opportunistic one...would not have gone to lengths that Hitler did to maintain these "relationships" up until the end of the war.
And,remember,all German soldiers went to war w/ Gott Mitt Uns (God with Us) on their belts.
Hardly the work of an atheist. | |
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Posted: 1/21/2008 3:09:46 AM | At the end of the day.... some people dont like being told what they should think....
Isnt that the way religion works? They all follow each other like sheep, believing the same shit....
One group believes this, one group believes that... the atheist has a free mind, dont they? | |
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Posted: 1/21/2008 3:46:13 AM | Reply to cocytus:
The Final Solution made little in the way of "sense."
This is true. However, the Shoah nevertheless was motivated by racial and political reasons, not religious. The camps did not discriminate on basis of religion. Jews, Christians, and atheists alike found themselves inside them.
Hitler never renounced his faith publicly and although he committed a number of acts which would warrant it...he was never excommunicated.
True, Hitler was "Catholic" in the sense that it was a part of his Austrian culture. Of course, it doesn't reflect in his lifestyle in any way. By the 20th century, the Catholic Church had long ceased to make formal declarations of excommunication to anyone except her own clergy. This is because most excommunications in 20th century canon law are made "latae sententiae" (meaning, they automatically happen by virtue of committing the act, and require no declaration of it). Today, there are many politicians in the United States and abroad who are automatically excommunicated, but the Church hasn't bothered to go out and say such.
He also had a close relationship w/ the leaders of the Catholic and Lutheran churches in Germany as well as the Vatican.
A good book to read regarding this is "The Myth of Hitler's Pope" by Rabbi David Dalin. It shatters many of the misconceptions developed by Soviet propaganda that Pope Pius XII had a close relationship with Nazi Germany. When I was at the university where he teaches, I actually had a chance to talk with him and applied for a job as his driver (he got someone else, though.)
When Pope Pius XII was still Cardinal Eugenio Pacelli, he co-authored an encyclical with Pius XI called "Mit Brennender Sorge", which contains a sweeping condemnation of the German Reich and its ideals.
Here are just a few excerpts:
"Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community—however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things—whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds"
"This God, this Sovereign Master, has issued commandments whose value is independent of time and space, country and race. As God's sun shines on every human face so His law knows neither privilege nor exception. Rulers and subjects, crowned and uncrowned, rich and poor are equally subject to His word. From the fullness of the Creators' right there naturally arises the fullness of His right to be obeyed by individuals and communities, whoever they are. This obedience permeates all branches of activity in which moral values claim harmony with the law of God, and pervades all integration of the ever-changing laws of man into the immutable laws of God."
"None but superficial minds could stumble into concepts of a national God, of a national religion; or attempt to lock within the frontiers of a single people, within the narrow limits of a single race, God, the Creator of the universe, King and Legislator of all nations before whose immensity they are "as a drop of a bucket" (Isaiah xl, 15). "
He already had a worldwide reputation in his time as an enemy of Nazism. When he was cardinal, he gave a speech before 250,000 pilgrims at Lourdes, France, saying that the Nazis:
"are in reality only miserable plagiarists who dress up old errors with new tinsel. It does not make any difference whether they flock to the banners of social revolution, whether they are guided by a false concept of the world and of life, or whether they are possessed by the superstition of a race and blood cult."
The day after Pacelli was elected pope, the Berlin Morgenpost reported:
‘The election of cardinal Pacelli is not accepted with favor in Germany because he was always opposed to Nazism and practically determined the policies of the Vatican under his predecessor.’
Pius XII did a lot of work to save Jews and others from the Nazis during WWII that unfortunately goes uncredited today. Rabbi Daniel Lapide wrote:
"in Rome we saw a list of 155 convents and monasteries—Italian, French, Spanish, English, American, and also German—mostly extraterritorial property of the Vatican . . . which sheltered throughout the German occupation some 5,000 Jews in Rome. No less than 3,000 Jews found refuge at one time at the Pope’s summer residence at Castel Gandolfo; sixty lived for nine months at the Jesuit Gregorian University, and half a dozen slept in the cellar of the Pontifical Bible Institute."
Scientist Albert Einstein said this:
"Only the Catholic Church protested against the Hitlerian onslaught on liberty. Up till then I had not been interested in the Church, but today I feel a great admiration for the Church, which alone has had the courage to struggle for spiritual truth and moral liberty."
You are right, though, that Hitler was not an atheist. I wouldn't try to argue that position. | |
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Posted: 1/21/2008 4:08:19 AM | "I feel a great admiration for the Church, which alone has had the courage to struggle for spiritual truth and moral liberty."
^^^That was before the ongoing scandals of boys being molested by self righteous robed paeodphiles was it not? | |
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Posted: 1/21/2008 4:21:30 AM |
"I feel a great admiration for the Church, which alone has had the courage to struggle for spiritual truth and moral liberty."
^^^That was before the ongoing scandals of boys being molested by self righteous robed paeodphiles was it not?
This is a bit of a trollish comment. But actually, the Nazis made the same accusations, among other things, to the Church even then.
Furthermore, English, American, and (northern) German popular culture has traditionally almost always identified Catholic priests as either drunkard womanizers, child molesters, nun rapists, or Jesuits bent on taking over the country and handing it to the Pope on a silver platter. It's been that way ever since the Reformation. There's little truth to them, but they make for amusing woodcuts and political cartoons, I suppose.
Anyway, I'm not trying to minimize the sins of some Catholic priests, because if they're real, they're real. However, there is a reason why I found a news story about a molesting Catholic priest on page 1 in bold letters on the San Antonio Express News, and a story about a molesting Lutheran minister on page 17 in a small column. Aside from the inherited prejudices, lawsuits against the Catholic Church also generate much more money because the lawyers sue an entire diocese (typically 100 or more individual parish churches), instead of a single church. But Catholic priests do not commit child abuse crimes at a higher rate than clergy of any other denomination or religion. Here's an example article from the NYTimes. In the Protestant churches collectively, there are 260 accusations of sex abuse by clergymen against minors, whereas in the Catholic Church, there are 228. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/16/us/16protestant.html?_r=2&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1200917853-X/Ig/npIm06pCJp+D28hig&oref=slogin
And in another article from the Christian Science Monitor:
"Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are not clergy or staff, but church volunteers."
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s01-ussc.html | |
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Posted: 1/21/2008 4:55:05 AM | BELIEVINGISSEEING,
I'm not surprised by your response, it is similar to any abusive person who is caught in the act and wants to save face
Notice I said SOME...not ALL. Didn't intend to step on any one person's toes. So how do you know which ones to abuse and which ones not to abuse with this logic?
So you blame God for the way your Father treated you. I'm sorry that happened. It was a poor witness and indeed lacking love and wisdom.
This is a typical response from a Christian. It assumes there is a god. And if you are talking about being a witness are you talking about Jesus or God? If you are talking about god then any mass murderer could be considered a good witness couldn't they? They justify killing just as god did in the bible. If you are talking about Jesus then if i were you i'd worry about your own witness because you are coming up way short of the model he left.
closer to the point though, i simply don't believe there is a god, so there is no point in taking the rout of blaming anything on him. However i do believe the image of god does exist in the minds of man much like children hold images of easter bunnies and santa clauses. Even i have an image of god in my mind because of all the conditioning that takes place.
Christians have to endure this type of thing all the time. Except we don't feel rage since we have perfect peace through Jesus and He comforts us.
I don't believe you for a second because every post you have shared this far perpetrates chaos and violence. While it might be true that Christians are persecuted it is through their actions and lack of compassion and understanding for those around them. Even though i'm angry and ok to admit that Christians hide behind what is supposed to be good and moral in the eyes of their god. No one attacks people for personal beliefs, sure we may have a chuckle when we hear that someone believes certain things but a personal belief is that, no one would know unless you made it public.
There are some Christians that make public affirmations of their faith but they don't go on a crusade to tell others they are going to hell because we don't believe in a certain way. They live like Jesus did and accept people just the way they are and their life is a testament of how their faith motivates them to do what they think is right. Some people don't need faith to do the right thing or be a good person though and that's the point. Who's to say if they believed in the Easter bunny that they wouldn't be just as good or moral.
God created all the science and arts. The only truth and understanding of the real world is that He is the creator of it all.
And statements like this are not remotely acceptable. | |
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Posted: 1/21/2008 8:59:16 AM |
I said: And another one . Hitler's "Final Solution" was never a religious one. It was always seen as a necessity for political and economic reasons. And a rather large does of hatred and evil. Even his own writing (mad drivel??) make that clear.
cocytus said: The basis of the "Final Solution" had to a be a religious.
Had to be? Why? Because you want it to be so? It doesn't matter what you (or anyone else) wants. A fact is a fact. Demonstrate from the vast quantity of literature and facts and recorded history of Hitler that is is a fact that the Holocaust/Final Solution was "religious".
Note: I deleted the rest of your theory to save space/time. It's a set of assumptions that begins with an assumption. Go get those facts and get back to me, OK? | |
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Posted: 1/21/2008 10:18:30 AM | I think at the end of the day the only thing Hitler was not was Jewish. According to wikipedea he played every side and obviously well.
"What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and the reproduction of our race ... so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe. ... Peoples that **stardize themselves, or let themselves be **stardized, sin against the will of eternal Providence."
"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter."
But then again he had a plan to do away with Christianity when he had substantial power. Hitler was deeply religious however I think it was only because he recognized the power that it wields. If he was Christian i'd be the first to jump on the band wagon to use it as ammo if needed. Its been said that he had his own delusion about God when he was injured in first world war, but he was a smart man who knew that he had to have people on his side to take over, that he could get rid of when he had enough power not to need them. | |
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Posted: 1/21/2008 10:51:40 AM | | Scorpio So much straw. You don't want to stay on topic you just want your opinion reaffirmed by someone with a lower voice. | |
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Posted: 1/21/2008 11:06:34 AM | | Scorpio On second thought you just bore me | |
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Posted: 1/21/2008 1:12:45 PM | I am an Athiest. Here is my manifesto. It can be found posted to the left when you walk in to any atheist church in North America. When we have our weekly athiest meetings, we solemnly pledge to follow this manifesto, and take no belief system before it:
I) I believe that every individual has the right to their beliefs, no matter how misled or childish they may seem to my eyes, as mine may seem that way to theirs.
II) I believe that we have to live side by side in this world.
III) I believe that others want my beliefs forced upon them, no more than I want their beliefs forced upon me.
IV) I do not believe it is my place to try and force my moral standards upon others, and would appreciate if others would show me the same respect. To try and impose my beliefs upon others would be a violation of article I, III, V, IX of this manifesto.
V) I believe that others do not want to and do not deserve to be ridiculed for their beliefs, and I know that I do not want to be ridiculed for mine. Comments like
Some do it just to get attention, some do it because they are very hungry for God but they don't know how to express it, some are just lacking wisdom and some have never been shown love and if they see others experiencing that happiness, they don't think it's fair. Nevertheless they will try and reason why but I believe its mostly because they are hungry for the Truth.... are a blatant violation of all of the above.
VI) I believe that we should all love each other because we love each other, not because some book reads that some dead guy said we should. Doing a kind act just because you can, is worth more than doing it to rack up a heavenly cover charge.
VII) I believe that a religion MUST be judged not by their articles of faith, but by the actions of their faithful. "Do as I say, not as I do" cannot apply.
VIII) I believe that forgiveness for horrible attrocities is not automatic, just because you believe in the teachings of some book/some dead guy. Stand up and be accountable for your actions. Don't cop out.
IX) I believe that elitism is a human construct, not a heavenly one. As such, any religion that preaches that heaven is only accessible through baptism into said religion must be categorically false. I also believe that to look down on/pity/feel the need to convert others because they do not share your belief system is an example of such elitism.
X) I believe that if "god was on their side" there would be some evidence of this, but I see that religious people die just as frequently as non-religious. Athiests and Theists are just as likely to be wealthy. They are just as likely to get sick. They are just as likely to get struck by lighting, die in a tsunami, swallowed by earthquake, blown away by tornado, or any other number of other means of loss of life. If god is on their side, he sure is apathetic.
XI) I believe that if religion really does so well at teaching love and tolerance, then they should take a stance and rally to stop the constant war going on in the world. Instead, I see them displaying their god's apathy, or actively participating in the violence.
XII) I believe that logical fact will trump personal unempirical belief 10 times out of 10. "Because god works in mysterious ways" doesn't cut it for me. Without free thought, I wouldn't be sitting at my computer in North America, as North America wouldn't be known to exist.
XIII) I believe that a true religion would not be afraid of science disproving it. If it were true, science couldn't disprove it. In fact, quite the opposite would be true. Any true religion would fund free-thinking science, as it would ultimately prove itself.
XIV) I do not doubt god because I lack wisdom. I have spent quite a lot of time investigating multiple religions. I have studied both their teachings, and their actions. I see no sign of god in the faithful, or their teachings. Santa Claus gave me just as much of a warm fuzzy feeling as any prayer did. It didn't make him exist either.
XV) I do not doubt god because I have never been shown love. I have been shown much love, more so from atheists. I find the religious to be judgemental.
And that, is why I consider myself to be an atheist. | |
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Posted: 1/21/2008 1:42:20 PM | Some do it just to get attention, some do it because they are very hungry for God but they don't know how to express it, some are just lacking wisdom and some have never been shown love and if they see others experiencing that happiness, they don't think it's fair. Nevertheless they will try and reason why but I believe its mostly because they are hungry for the Truth....the hostile ones anyway.
You should actually try reading some of the answers here, rather than projecting motivations on others.
As for Hitlers faith, whatever his personal beliefs (he never did renounce his catholic faith) there is no question that large quantities of Catholics and Protestants were the ones operating the furnaces and gas chambers.
I wrote a paper on it in my history class, esentially the Nazi leadership (many of them a bizzare proto religion that never got off the ground), protestant leadership, and Catholic leadership all weren't very fond of each other, but they could all work together in hating Jews.
In fact, I had an entire section that was a sad collection of statements whereby they all insulted each other, by comparing them to various percieved jewish traits.
Lets get back on topic. | |
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Posted: 1/21/2008 3:17:13 PM |
I've shared truth and thats what people cannot stand. I see no truth in what you have said. I see only your belief.
Some Christians don't share enough about Jesus to others worrying that they might offend or anger someone and sometimes it is too late. Perhaps they don't try to ram it down people's throats out of RESPECT.
I believe in showing love and compassion By not respecting others' points of view, you are not respecting the person. Disrespect is not love and compassion.
Ignorance is accepting them for who they are no matter how lost they are and ignoring the fact that they are in peril... If I am in peril, so be it. I accept that. I am good with it. It is MY CHOICE. If I want your opinion on how I can be saved, I'll ask. However, I would like to point out that this is in direct contradiction with the first line of your post, where you stated:
I haven't told anyone they are going to hell. It is attitudes like you have displayed that give many people a negative view of christianity. You get more bees with honey than with vinegar. Thus far, from your condescending tone, you have displayed nothing but vinegar.
In the end, I don't want Jesus asking me why I didn't tell others about Him. If I were him, and saw this, I wouldn't be as worried about this question, as you should be about him asking
"Why'd you make me look like such an a$$?"
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Posted: 1/21/2008 6:23:18 PM | The premise of this thread is like declaring war on another country and after days of firing on them you are shocked at the nerve and the audacity of the locals when they start firing back.
Some do it just to get attention, some do it because they are very hungry for God but they don't know how to express it, some are just lacking wisdom and some have never been shown love and if they see others experiencing that happiness, they don't think it's fair. Nevertheless they will try and reason why but I believe its mostly because they are hungry for the Truth....the hostile ones anyway.
If an atheist had the tiniest shred of hunger, desire, or jealousy for any aspect of believing in your god they could easily and quickly dispense that urge by choosing to believe as you do.
Obviously we have no such desire. I'm not jealous. At most I'm sympathetic. The time I spent in church taught me that I was born with sin, that the world is ugly and getting worse every day, my current existence on earth was transitory and of little importance, and the only thing I had to look forward to was death. Which, to me, meant that I was a piece of crap, the world is crap, and life sucks. I lived in fear of offending a celestial tyrant and had my objectivity stripped away by the enthusiastic lies of a charismatic preacher. Any hunger I had for 'truth' was quickly destroyed by authority figures in my life telling me that my "mind was far too small to understand God so why even try?" So on top of being pieces of crap we are stupid too. When I lived this way, atheists weren't jealous of me - I was jealous of them. You can keep your brand of 'happiness.' I'm ten times happier now that I own myself. | |
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Posted: 1/21/2008 7:25:58 PM | RE msg 120 by crazylitling:
I think at the end of the day the only thing Hitler was not was Jewish. Even that one is questionable. There is a distinct possibility that Hitler's grandfather was Jewish, which according to Hitler's rules, would make him Jewish and required to go to the concentration camps. According to one historian, Hitler had a clause added to the Nazi Law defining Jewishness, that excluded 2 people: Jesus Christ and himself. Jesus I get. The really insulted the Jews heavily, and probably didn't want to offend any Germans who still believed in Jesus. But why would anyone think Hitler was Jewish, unless there was some possibility that he was.
See http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_325b.html
According to wikipedea he played every side and obviously well. That's for sure. He courted the Church, because he convinced Mussolini to get the whole of Italy to fight on his side, and the Italians were Catholics, so they wouldn't fight if they believed they were fighting against the Church. He also courted the Muslims and got many Arab leaders to fight in his cause, in the Middle East, and in North Africa. He also acted with the Japanese Emperor Hirohito, who was the leader of the Shinto religion. So you have Hitler consorting with Christians, Muslims, and Shinotists, all in the name of power. Each one of those 3 religions would normally be radically opposed to the rest. How he managed to keep them from killing each other is beyond me.
RE msg 103:
Scorpio by the way you can not separate money and power from religion. Religion is all about money and power. From the pope crowning Constantine to the queen of England ( defender of the faith) to Sunday morning televangelists devising ways to stimulate donations and influencing followers to vote a particular way. They are a team religion and politics. Religion was a big part of colonization look at all the Christianity in Sub Saharan Africa. Is that a product of colonization oh ya. Let's get something straight. You can be religious without being a politician, good or bad. But if you're a corrupt politician, then you want to be seen as religious, because you want people to do what you say without thinking about how corrupt it is, and who better to tell people what to do than G-d? Thus there have been many religious leader who had nothing to do with public office, but there have been no corrupt political leaders who didn't try and get the most popular religion to endorse them. Everyone from the Pharaohs, Julius Caesar, Augustus, Octavius, Constantine, Charlemagne, the Kings and Queens of Europe, all the way through history. If any religious leader disagreed with a political leader, then he had them killed if he could, and if he couldn't, he made his own religion.
Please stop confusing things. You live in a society that has corrupt politicians, both religious and atheist.
RE msg 121:
Scorpio So much straw. You don't want to stay on topic you just want your opinion reaffirmed by someone with a lower voice. Wow. You must be the only person who thinks I want people to agree with me. Everyone else says I like it when people argue with me.
RE msg 122:
Scorpio On second thought you just bore me Lies are always more interesting than the truth. Didn't your mother ever tell you that?
Lets get back on topic. OK.
I was wondering, what inspires Atheists to pick on Christians, or other religious groups. Personally, I think it's reactionism.
Take an old university class-mate, who was a good friend of mine. Went to Catholic school, and was a lefty, like me, but in Latin, the left is called "sinister". I kid you not. His school tied his left arm behind his back every day, during the whole school day, so he would learn to be right-handed. On top, he was gay. Is it any wonder he was atheist?
Then there was a guy I met who went to the same school as me, not Christian, where religion was force-fed, the same way they force-feed anorexics. Practically shoved it down our throats. Fortunately, I was going through so much sh*t at the time that it all flew past me. But he was thinking of becoming a Christian missionary, just to p*ss them off.
I reacted against the middle-class hypocrisy of my upbringing and went fundamentalist for a while. Didn't kill anyone or get violent, or ever advocated violence. But I did get a bit extreme.
I think that for some reason, many religious people are more focussed on what is "right" and not on what is good, fair or just. I admit that it sticks in my craw when people say certain things. But at the end of the day, atheists and religious folk seem to speak the same message: Be good to each other.
I think that a lot of people who are religious, see their religion as an excuse to justify what they feel is right, even if it is totally against the religion, like "honour killings", which a Muslim poster pointed out is completely against Islam. Many parents have beaten their kids mercilessly, and then try to justify it with their religion. There are a lot of other things like this. That is bound to make people feel very angry.
Unfortunately, that makes many people enraged against what is done "in the name of religion", when really it is done in the name of justifying their own actions, and makes people feel that the problem is religion, when really the problem is what these people did.
I don't like it when people feel that such a problem is religion, because I've seen these people then find another excuse, and yet another, to justify their actions, but they still keep doing it. So I believe that to blame religion, and not these actions, actually tolerates these actions. Because the religion is a justification, and such people find other justifications, like "he/she was asking for it", or my personal favourite (one that was said to me many times), "we're only doing it because we love you".
Hate the crime, not the excuse. The reason is simple: plain old selfish desire. | |
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